Can a foreigner be a Juristic Person in Thailand

[spetersen]

Can a foreigner be a Juristic Person in a moo ban (President/Chairperson) ?. If that's possible is there any requirement in the immigration law for a work permit ?. As I understand foreigners are aloud to sit in a committee but not as the Juristic Person. Please correct me if I'm wrong

 

Regards

[BritTim]

A juristic person is any individual, group, or other entity having legal rights and duties. The juristic person is not necessarily even human. The specifics of who or what is considered a juristic person depends on the situation and relevant law. The 'juristic person' associated with a Thai condo development, is I believe normally considered the condominium management and committee as a whole. Some of its components may well be foreign nationals. I stand to be corrected on this.

[stud858]

I know of two foreigners that have been accepted by land office as juristic manager. One of them still is and is doing a wonderful job taking over due people to court getting back hundreds of thousands.  I call him super falang.

[elviajero]

As far as immigration law is concerned, if the person is being employed by an employer to do a job then they would need a work permit whether paid or unpaid. Otherwise they would need permission to work if it's considered an occupation in terms of job, business, means of making a living.

 

If the position is unpaid and doesn't involve formal employment I would expect it wouldn't need permission. The local labour office would be able to confirm.

[stud858]

A juristic manager of a condo usually employs a thai building manager to work on his or her behalf thus avoiding the work permit requirement.

[spetersen]

Thanks for your reply 

 

Best regards and have a nice weekend

[mahjongguy]

A Juristic Person is not a person. It's a thing, a legal construct which represents a group.

 

In a condo or mooban, a Juristic Person is represented by a Juristic Manager, a person chosen by the Committee and approved by the Land Office. This can be a farang, but (I believe) it needs to be one of the unit/property owners. 

 

I served as a Committee member for a while but I declined the role of President. I did not want to be involved in banking or the signing of contracts (e.g. guard services). To me, those actions could too easily be categorized as work by the Labor ministry.

 

As an aside: the Juristic Manager's role is to sign legal documents as directed by the Committee. That's all. But, so many condos employ the Juristic Manager to also be the Business Manager. This is a terrible mistake. Way too often, that person, able to do so much without scrutiny, will take the money and run.     

 

[jobwolf]

We had one some years ago but changed to Thai national.

It is very difficult for a foreigner to get support and help at Gov, offices if one does not

speak Thai perfectly. If you take on a Thai make sure you write a good job description, otherwise he will tell you only the Thai condominium act is relevant. Your COC can add anything you want as long as it conforms with the Thai condo act - law. Normally big Land departments have one Person in charge for Condominium Act of Thailand. They can help. 

Also the Condo act of Thailand is available in English on the website.

[stud858]

27 minutes ago, mahjongguy said:

A Juristic Person is not a person. It's a thing, a legal construct which represents a group.

 

In a condo or mooban, a Juristic Person is represented by a Juristic Manager, a person chosen by the Committee and approved by the Land Office. This can be a farang, but (I believe) it needs to be one of the unit/property owners. 

 

I served as a Committee member for a while but I declined the role of President. I did not want to be involved in banking or the signing of contracts (e.g. guard services). To me, those actions could too easily be categorized as work by the Labor ministry.

 

As an aside: the Juristic Manager's role is to sign legal documents as directed by the Committee. That's all. But, so many condos employ the Juristic Manager to also be the Business Manager. This is a terrible mistake. Way too often, that person, able to do so much without scrutiny, will take the money and run.     

 

Agree. My condo has a rogue Juristic/building/cheque signing manager who is grafting at will.

We have just had an emergency meeting to kick him out but it's a frustrating experience. Land office, police and bank aren't concerned about grafting at all and it seems like it's a legal accepted practice.

[stud858]

Also my rogue manager is refusing to present bank books. This is not covered in Thai condo act. Does anybody know of any laws relating to this issue?

[ubonjoe]

13 minutes ago, stud858 said:

Also my rogue manager is refusing to present bank books. This is not covered in Thai condo act. Does anybody know of any laws relating to this issue?

Since your questions are best answered on the real estate forum I moving this topic to there.

[mahjongguy]

The bank books are the property of the Juristic Person as represented by the Committee. If they are not produced by the Juristic Person Manager or the Business Manager immediately upon request, you should notify the police. The Committee should then proceed to dismiss the Business Manager without notice. If the JPM is at fault, then the Committee should call an emergency association meeting and vote to remove him/her from office.

 

 

[stud858]

17 minutes ago, mahjongguy said:

The bank books are the property of the Juristic Person as represented by the Committee. If they are not produced by the Juristic Person Manager or the Business Manager immediately upon request, you should notify the police. The Committee should then proceed to dismiss the Business Manager without notice. If the JPM is at fault, then the Committee should call an emergency association meeting and vote to remove him/her from office.

 

 

Police notified and report made but no action from them. Emergency meeting had and days away from being notified by land office that new juristic accepted. It has been as if those with I'll intention have been supported by authorities. Very disappointing. Still would be good to know if there is written law regarding JP and bank accounts handling.

[mahjongguy]

Does anyone on the Committee have signatory power on the bank accounts? Have they been to the bank to request the current balance? Have they shown the police report and requested replacement bank books and statement printouts?

 

Just FYI, standard procedure is that each of the five Committee members is named on the accounts and a minimum of two signatures is required for withdrawal. The JPM is often one of those Committee members but cannot withdraw money without a second signature. Even so, this does not prevent a corrupt JPM or Business Manager from simply failing to make cash deposits (usually from association fees). That simple trick cost our little mooban half a million baht this year.

 

 

[stud858]

JM has one other on his side for signing. Other committee members have deserted and become complacent and non helpful.

I should make a YouTube documentary on this. People will laugh and cry.

[natway09]

Short answer,,, yes As a Juristic person (member of a committee ) you are protecting your investment

ie: cannot be unless you own a strata title in your name

[DavidFarrow]

Good evening,

I have recently married a Thai citizen and would like to explore the options of bringing my business to Thailand.

I am a Canadian, living and working in the Ontario Condominium industry where a license is required to be a Property Manager. I am a member of Association of Condominium Managers Ontario (Registered Condominium Manager) and a C.M.C.A. with the Community Association Institute (CAI Canada).

 

I bring with me the ethics of Ontario law and transparent service to our customers with a proprietary accounting/management/owner information software that provides real-time updates to Boards, owners, and investors. The software is adaptable for rental units as well, highlight is owners can see the financial position of the corporation and their own account in an easy click.

 

I guess my question for the group is, what would the reception be like for a Canadian Management Company doing business in Asia.

 

As i am making application for my wife to visit Canada and teach me the language i would appreciate any input or leads to developers or legislators that can clarify what i need to do. 

 

Thank you for your insight in advance.

[stud858]

Most condos have the original management from when they first opened for operation and will operate.covertly allowing them to profit. They may not want open perfect, accurate accounting.  

I presented an accounting package to a Juristic person at my building after it was presented in annual report that the auditor could not comment due to lack of paperwork and they wanted to stick with what they had.  A system of hand written receipts with no bank reconciliation. A bit of shifty busiess happens in the condo management industry.  Sorry to say, Thailand and your Western management style won't match. Only my opinion and listen to what others say.

[Delight]

 You have to separate ‘Juristic Person’ from ‘Juristic Person Manager’

 

A Juristic Person is a legal entity that offers protection.

It is equivalent to a   ‘limited liability company ‘

It granted to operations  ( who qualify)that have income and expenditure –but are  not set up for profit.

A condo is a good example.

If a condo goes bankrupt then the co –owners are legally shielded from   the debt.

 

A Juristic Person Manager(JPM) is a person –or a company- who manages the condo.

In the case of a company then that company has to supply a human to do the actual work

In the case of condo  the law allows certain tasks to be delegated to one other person. Typically that person has the title Building Manager.

This role is entirely optional -but typical.

The detail of these delegated tasks has to be approved at a condo general meeting

In the strict sense of the law foreigners can only became committee members and/or JPMs with work permits.

Of course by law it is the land office  that governs condo activities. They have no interest in immigration rules.

Immigration turn a blind eye to foreign committee  members and JPMs-it seems.

Q Why is this?

A  My answer is ‘money makes the world go around’

Condos –particularly those in Farang infested areas would collapse without foreign helpers.

Reference the OP

Has your moobaan been granted Juristic Person status?

Edited July 28, 2018 by Delight

[KittenKong]

14 minutes ago, Delight said:

Immigration turn a blind eye to foreign committee  members and JPMs-it seems. 

Q Why is this?

A  My answer is ‘money makes the world go around’

At least one immigration chief has specifically said that farangs can act as committee members because no actual work is involved. But as JPMs have legal responsibility and are normally paid, this task would require a work permit.

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, stud858 said:

A bit of shifty busiess happens in the condo management industry.

Only a bit? I dont think so. The entire business is massively corrupt.

[Delight]

3 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

At least one immigration chief has specifically said that farangs can act as committee members because no actual work is involved. But as JPMs have legal responsibility and are normally paid, this task would require a work permit.

When you say ' At least one immigration chief has specifically said that farangs can act as committee members '

Has this been officially stated in writing?

Edited July 28, 2018 by Delight

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, DavidFarrow said:

I guess my question for the group is, what would the reception be like for a Canadian Management Company doing business in Asia.

I think the problems you would come across would be dishonesty, corruption, greed, laziness and stupidity amongst both staff and contractors. Quite how you could round that, I dont know.

There are some foreign companies who do condo management here, and I sounded them out to run my building. I found they charge quite a lot compared to Thai  companies, but I suspect that may be because they expect to put in more effort and also to steal less.

In my building the co-owners are much too stupid and greedy to see the advantage of having better management, so nothing came of it. And we are paying the price now. Co-owners are also unable to see the advantage of doing proper maintenance work and would rather save 100B today even it loses them 1,000B tomorrow. Fairly typical really.

[KittenKong]

8 minutes ago, Delight said:

When you say ' At least one immigration chief has specifically said that farangs can act as committee members '

Has this been officially stated in writing?

It was stated in public at a meeting of one of the expat groups in Pattaya a couple of years ago.

 

Nothing was written down, of course. You hardly ever see specific written rules here: just verbal interpretations that change with the wind.

[stud858]

Had one management company hired at my last condo  30k per month for 6 months.  They did nothing but state what the Thai condo Act says and supplied a few poorly organised spreadsheets . Total waste of money. 

 

Also had water sewerage authority threaten that all committee members would be chased for money owed if debt was not settled.  Not just juristic.  I'm never going on committee again.  Rules simply are not followed.  

Edited July 28, 2018 by stud858

[Delight]

1 hour ago, KittenKong said:

It was stated in public at a meeting of one of the expat groups in Pattaya a couple of years ago.

 

Nothing was written down, of course. You hardly ever see specific written rules here: just verbal interpretations that change with the wind.

 To my mind  foreigners acting as committee members and JPMs are safe -providing  they work for free.

Just as safe are condos in companies.

If the government were to act -they would have done it already.

It's never going to happen.

 

[lkn]

2 hours ago, Delight said:

 To my mind  foreigners acting as committee members and JPMs are safe -providing  they work for free.

Just as safe are condos in companies.

If the government were to act -they would have done it already.

It's never going to happen.

It is not about salary. The law basically requires a work permit for any action you do, be it volunteer work or supervising a handyman.

 

But about two years ago a document surfaced with a somewhat official interpretation of the law requested by some government branch.

 

In this (new) interpretation there was both a list of jobs that was explicitly excluded from requiring a work permit, such as being a committee member or (I think) CEO of your own company (if it only required signing documents and attending board meetings).

 

But it also gave a stricter definition of when something requires a work permit, which is when the job competes with the local labour market.

 

Given that definition, it is obvious that being committee member is allowed because only co-owners and their spouse are eligible (for privately owned condos), so there is no local market for this.

 

Juristic Person Manager is problematic, because this is commonly a paid position, so even if a co-owner offers to do this for free, and is not performing any actual work (as all but signing a few yearly documents can be outsourced to a building manager), the Ministry of Labour claims that you need a work permit to be JPM (though the Land Office does not care about this, which is where JPM gets registered).

 

An edge case is interim JPM, something that is required if the current JPM resigns or is terminated, and as only committee members are candidates for being elected interim JPM, I would claim that whoever takes this position does not compete with the local labour market.

 

[lkn]

3 hours ago, stud858 said:

Had one management company hired at my last condo  30k per month for 6 months.  They did nothing but state what the Thai condo Act says and supplied a few poorly organised spreadsheets . Total waste of money. 

How much was included in that package? Did you have your own building manager to take care of issues, supervise third party contractors, etc.?

 

Because if not, then 30k/month is probably too low. You need a good building manager more or less full time and then a proper accountant, plus profit for the company for finding, training, and managing this staff. It’s doable, but with low margins that would probably make the company opt for cheaper (subpar) staff.

[lkn]

8 hours ago, DavidFarrow said:

I bring with me the ethics of Ontario law and transparent service to our customers with a proprietary accounting/management/owner information software that provides real-time updates to Boards, owners, and investors.

The thing is, management fee tends to be fairly low, so most co-owners do not care much about this. I could probably increase the next batch of water supply bills by a factor of 10, and no-one would notice.

 

But things being cheap here also means quality is low, and that is the real challenge of managing a building: Making sure that the staff perform their duties (security guard is not sleeping on the job, cleaning staff also removes spots which are not on their chore list, painters cover the area around where they are going to paint, and if they spill anything, they clean it up themselves, etc.).

 

In addition to that, there is a bit of communication with third parties, authorities, etc. which require a patient person who can follow-up on things and ensure there are no loose ends (you can’t expect third parties will follow up with you even though they should be incentivized by the potential job, and of course authorities or warranty issues, there is absolutely no incentive there for the other party to follow up).

[melvinmelvin]

 

there are foreign companies in the real estate/condo management business in Thailand,

J LaSalle is maybe the largest foreign company