Trump clashes with sports world over player protests, invitation

[Slip]

2 minutes ago, amvet said:

Let me ask you an honest question.  If the immediate threat to your life and property was minority gang members would you care if the police attempted to control those gangs?  Or would you tell the cops to go easy on the minority gang members and try and rehabilitate them even though they broke into your house 3 times in a year?   

 

I didn't see it as a matter of patriotism but a matter of self preservation.  Those football players live in gated communities protected from the gang violence that the rest of us are exposed to so maybe they have a different opinion and feel better about kneeling or sitting or fisting to make a point about the big bad American police.  

But the immediate threat is not gang members, it is upstanding role models doing the right thing.  You need to get off the Trump-Aid mate.

[Credo]

2 hours ago, amvet said:

2014 Ferguson (East St Louis) riots.  2015 Baltimore State of Emergency and protests.  2016 Milwaukee Riots.

 

You probably should know a bit more about America before you post.

Wow, I missed where they played the National Anthem before the Ferguson riots.   It might have been a good idea if they did and everyone kneeled down.

 

When I was a student, we had some religious group and the students weren't allowed (by their religion to say the Pledge of Allegiance.   As I recall, they did stand, but didn't put their hand over their heart or say the Pledge.   

 

Somewhere along the way, I just came to accept, or ignore, people who don't do things like stand.   

 

Personally, I stand for the National Anthem of any country.   

 

 

[amvet]

8 hours ago, Slip said:

But the immediate threat is not gang members, it is upstanding role models doing the right thing.  You need to get off the Trump-Aid mate.

I guess that would depend if you were a young or old person and where you happened to be located. 

[JimP]

13 hours ago, amvet said:

Sure I'm right.  Name me one country that does not stand for the National Anthem.  Name me one country that does not ostracize citizens for not standing when the Anthem is played and flag displayed.  Tell me what percent of persons in the USA that don't stand and act respectful during the playing of the National Anthem?  

 

Women wear clothes.  Kids like ice cream.  People stand when their National Anthem is played.  It is absolute.  I'm right you are wrong. 

I'm going to regret chiming in here, but your post is so foolish, I have to.  By your logic anyone who protests is being disrespectful, and that disrespectful moniker is earned and legitimized because they are...ostracized.  Wow.  Words escape me how you need to go back to school.  What's the matter?  Slow day on the farm?  Rain clouds?  Thai in-laws got you down?  For starters, NFL players are getting loads of support for their peaceful protest.  Second, even if they are ostracized by some, that does not mean their message is wrong or disrespectful.  Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., and several other peaceful protesters were 'ostracized' by the establishment. That did not mean they were wrong in their peaceful protests.  What is so hard for you to understand that if you're black in America, you suffer racism?  If these players were burning down buildings and tossing over cars, we'd be outraged.  But they are simply taking a knee in a peaceful protest.  What's your issue? That's rhetorical. I won't respond.

[amvet]

18 minutes ago, JimP said:

I'm going to regret chiming in here, but your post is so foolish, I have to.  By your logic anyone who protests is being disrespectful, and that disrespectful moniker is earned and legitimized because they are...ostracized.  Wow.  Words escape me how you need to go back to school.  What's the matter?  Slow day on the farm?  Rain clouds?  Thai in-laws got you down?  For starters, NFL players are getting loads of support for their peaceful protest.  Second, even if they are ostracized by some, that does not mean their message is wrong or disrespectful.  Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jr., and several other peaceful protesters were 'ostracized' by the establishment. That did not mean they were wrong in their peaceful protests.  What is so hard for you to understand that if you're black in America, you suffer racism?  If these players were burning down buildings and tossing over cars, we'd be outraged.  But they are simply taking a knee in a peaceful protest.  What's your issue? That's rhetorical. I won't respond.

You are confusing wrong with disrespectful.  Sitting or kneeling or showing a fist at the National Anthem is disrespectful.  That is the point of the protest.  Stop and searching black men with no reason is also disrespectful and wrong.  That is the point of the protest.  The establishment  is disrespecting black people and black people are disrespecting the establishment as a protest.  You are confusing my words and thoughts.  Disrespect is not necessarily bad nor do I necessarily feel it is bad or wrong. 

 

How have you disrespected me?  1.  Called me foolish.  2.  Told me to go back to school. 3.  Accused me of family problems.  Did it make you feel better?  I imagine the NFL players feel better after showing out at the establishment (although it pays them millions a game/year)

 

I said a number of times I don't have an issue with it but the point of it is disrespect and that might upset some people at a sporting contest and I can understand that too.

 

 

[amvet]

I think you gotta ask yourself how smart this whole kneeling, sitting and fisting protest is.  One, what is the protest about?  It's about cops harassing young black men.  So what is the best way to fix that?  Confrontational conflict protests is the answer of the young black men of the NFL.  Now, how smart is that?  

 

A bunch of young black men sitting around and talking about ending police harassment and one says, "I know how, lets get the cops enraged, red faced popping angry enough to shoot us that should stop the harassment eh?"  How do we do that?  "Well, lets attack one of their sacred symbols, a cop totem like the National Anthem.  That'll will anger them  em off enough to  pee their pants."

 

How to stop a fight?  Make the aggressive party with all the guns more angry than he already is.  Ya, that works.    

[ilostmypassword]

36 minutes ago, amvet said:

I think you gotta ask yourself how smart this whole kneeling, sitting and fisting protest is.  One, what is the protest about?  It's about cops harassing young black men.  So what is the best way to fix that?  Confrontational conflict protests is the answer of the young black men of the NFL.  Now, how smart is that?  

 

A bunch of young black men sitting around and talking about ending police harassment and one says, "I know how, lets get the cops enraged, red faced popping angry enough to shoot us that should stop the harassment eh?"  How do we do that?  "Well, lets attack one of their sacred symbols, a cop totem like the National Anthem.  That'll will anger them  em off enough to  pee their pants."

 

How to stop a fight?  Make the aggressive party with all the guns more angry than he already is.  Ya, that works.    

The national anthem is a cop totem? Really? And you have some evidence that these demonstrations are angering cops to the point that they will commit homicide? Apparently, you , perhaps even more so than these protesters, believe the police are trigger-happy violence prone killers. Maybe you should remain seated for the national anthem, too. Just be sure to wear a bullet-proof vest to protect you from those homicidal members of the police force.

[Si Thea01]

Is it me or not, as after reading 53 pages all I am seeing is the same old, same old repetitious slinging  off, name calling clap trap that comes with anything to do with trump, the flag,  cops, disrespect, and African Americans.  It is has taken 53 pages and no one is the wiser, there are no winners.  It's about time this thread was closed because it sure ain't getting anywhere.  But that's only MO.

 

[amvet]

13 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

The national anthem is a cop totem? Really? And you have some evidence that these demonstrations are angering cops to the point that they will commit homicide? Apparently, you , perhaps even more so than these protesters, believe the police are trigger-happy violence prone killers. Maybe you should remain seated for the national anthem, too. Just be sure to wear a bullet-proof vest to protect you from those homicidal members of the police force.

Angered by the protest, police and other emergency service workers have turned down an offer to participate in a ceremony ahead of a game on 10 September Dan Nemeth, president of the Cleveland Association of Rescue Employees Local 1975, told Fox8Cleveland: “This hit home with me. I am a veteran, an eight-year veteran with the US Marine Corps.

“So, to disrespect the flag by taking a knee is not something I was going to be a part of.

 

I could find another ten quotes but yes the National Anthem is a cop totem as is the flag.  Are American cops trigger happy?  Well, that is what the protest is all about eh?

 

I wouldn't stay seated during the Anthem as I'm not a subscriber to the Mike Tyson/Donald Trump school of diplomacy I'm a lot smarter than that.   

[amvet]

6 minutes ago, Si Thea01 said:

Is it me or not, as after reading 53 pages all I am seeing is the same old, same old repetitious slinging  off, name calling clap trap that comes with anything to do with trump, the flag,  cops, disrespect, and African Americans.  It is has taken 53 pages and no one is the wiser, there are no winners.  It's about time this thread was closed because it sure ain't getting anywhere.  But that's only MO.

 

Why not suggest a way of conducting a meaningful protest that has a chance of bringing about change as opposed to the kneeling disrespect stuff?

[Si Thea01]

Just now, amvet said:

Why not suggest a way of conducting a meaningful protest that has a chance of bringing about change as opposed to the kneeling disrespect stuff?

 

Because it's all been said, nothing I can add would make one iota of difference. 

[amvet]

Just now, Si Thea01 said:

 

Because it's all been said, nothing I can add would make one iota of difference. 

No one has suggested a meaningful form of protest that has a chance in heck of succeeding.  They have only added to the conflict by starting arguments.  Do you think  the race problem in the USA is insoluble? 

[Si Thea01]

1 minute ago, amvet said:

No one has suggested a meaningful form of protest that has a chance in heck of succeeding.  They have only added to the conflict by starting arguments.  Do you think  the race problem in the USA is insoluble? 

 

I really don't know but being an outsider and seeing how it is argued, NOT debated on TVF,  it could be reasonably construed that these type of actions, if replicated in reality, stateside, would make it highly unlikely.  Very few, it seems, want to be conciliatory, it's the old argument, black isn't black, it's white or more to the point, it's either my way or the highway.

 

I have been to the US of A many times and found it's people fantastic, the countryside and food great but I have also seen it tearing itself apart from the inside.  I think many need to wake up before it's too late, live with each other, so that your great country will always remain great.

 

The world needs a strong and resilient America, otherwise I hate to think of what it will be like if certain other nations overtake it.  People have to show compassion, tolerance and get along with their neighbour, unless they brings grief or hostilities, because, IMO, if this does not happen, then what is happening now, will unfortunately be happening well past mine and many others use by date. 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, amvet said:

Angered by the protest, police and other emergency service workers have turned down an offer to participate in a ceremony ahead of a game on 10 September Dan Nemeth, president of the Cleveland Association of Rescue Employees Local 1975, told Fox8Cleveland: “This hit home with me. I am a veteran, an eight-year veteran with the US Marine Corps.

“So, to disrespect the flag by taking a knee is not something I was going to be a part of.

 

I could find another ten quotes but yes the National Anthem is a cop totem as is the flag.  Are American cops trigger happy?  Well, that is what the protest is all about eh?

 

I wouldn't stay seated during the Anthem as I'm not a subscriber to the Mike Tyson/Donald Trump school of diplomacy I'm a lot smarter than that.   

I think the important point to take away is that you do agree with the protesters that cops are trigger-happy. You just disagree with the way that they are calling attention to it.

[rockingrobin]

2 hours ago, amvet said:

You are confusing wrong with disrespectful.  Sitting or kneeling or showing a fist at the National Anthem is disrespectful.  That is the point of the protest.  Stop and searching black men with no reason is also disrespectful and wrong.  That is the point of the protest.  The establishment  is disrespecting black people and black people are disrespecting the establishment as a protest.  You are confusing my words and thoughts.  Disrespect is not necessarily bad nor do I necessarily feel it is bad or wrong. 

 

How have you disrespected me?  1.  Called me foolish.  2.  Told me to go back to school. 3.  Accused me of family problems.  Did it make you feel better?  I imagine the NFL players feel better after showing out at the establishment (although it pays them millions a game/year)

 

I said a number of times I don't have an issue with it but the point of it is disrespect and that might upset some people at a sporting contest and I can understand that too.

 

 

In your example it is not the black people being disrespected by the establishment, it is american values . As the US flag and anthem are symbols of american values , the establishment are being.disrepective to these 

[amvet]

7 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

I think the important point to take away is that you do agree with the protesters that cops are trigger-happy. You just disagree with the way that they are calling attention to it.

Ya.

[amvet]

1 hour ago, rockingrobin said:

In your example it is not the black people being disrespected by the establishment, it is american values . As the US flag and anthem are symbols of american values , the establishment are being.disrepective to these 

I think you are trying to say America has racist values.  Would a racist society have elected a black President?  No, of course not.  America has bad leaders because the media encourages division as it encourages this kneeling, sitting and black power salute protest.  America should look to the countries with equivalent African populations that don't have high crime rates and racial tensions and emulate what they are doing to solve problems. 

[Jingthing]

6 minutes ago, amvet said:

I think you are trying to say America has racist values.  Would a racist society have elected a black President?  No, of course not.  America has bad leaders because the media encourages division as it encourages this kneeling, sitting and black power salute protest.  America should look to the countries with equivalent African populations that don't have high crime rates and racial tensions and emulate what they are doing to solve problems. 

As long as there are people like you that are totally BLIND to the pervasive institutionalized racism in American society, I hope all athletes never stand for the national anthem ever again. I'm disgusted by the right wing idiotic excuse that just because Obama got elected twice proves there isn't a racism problem in the USA or that it is solved. Really, how can people be so uninformed and SIMPLE MINDED?

[amvet]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

As long as there are people like you that are totally BLIND to the pervasive institutionalized racism in American society, I hope all athletes never stand for the national anthem ever again. I'm disgusted by the right wing idiotic excuse that just because Obama got elected twice proves there isn't a racism problem in the USA or that it is solved. Really, how can people be so uninformed and SIMPLE MINDED?

I'm a totally blind idiotic, uninformed simple minded right winger?  I haven't called anyone any names on this thread or indeed ever on this forum.  You are trying to start a fight by calling me names as opposed to debate.  The young black men of the NFL are trying by kneeling, sitting and giving the black power salute to anger mainstream America instead of promoting racial harmony.  

 

The black young men are protesting racial profiling by profiling the American Anthem.  Up to them but I think it is as Trumpian as you calling me names. 

 

Wouldn't it serve a higher purpose to discuss ways to change the conditions that caused the NFL protests rather than try and exacerbate them?

[rockingrobin]

50 minutes ago, amvet said:

I think you are trying to say America has racist values.  Would a racist society have elected a black President?  No, of course not.  America has bad leaders because the media encourages division as it encourages this kneeling, sitting and black power salute protest.  America should look to the countries with equivalent African populations that don't have high crime rates and racial tensions and emulate what they are doing to solve problems. 

I am not saying America has racist values.

I am saying it is disrespecting american values , and its symbols e.g the flag ,to engage In acts that do not uphold the values.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, amvet said:

I'm a totally blind idiotic, uninformed simple minded right winger?  I haven't called anyone any names on this thread or indeed ever on this forum.  You are trying to start a fight by calling me names as opposed to debate.  The young black men of the NFL are trying by kneeling, sitting and giving the black power salute to anger mainstream America instead of promoting racial harmony.  

 

The black young men are protesting racial profiling by profiling the American Anthem.  Up to them but I think it is as Trumpian as you calling me names. 

 

Wouldn't it serve a higher purpose to discuss ways to change the conditions that caused the NFL protests rather than try and exacerbate them?

It's the clown potus that inflamed the situation. He's the one that used OBSCENITY and insulted their mothers. Any moron knows the cultural thing with African Americans and their mothers. It was another typical trumpist racist dog whistle to his white resentment base.  Don't blame the protesters exercising their constitutional rights. 

[Opl]

1 hour ago, amvet said:

I'm a totally blind idiotic, uninformed simple minded right winger?  I haven't called anyone any names on this thread or indeed ever on this forum.  You are trying to start a fight by calling me names as opposed to debate.  The young black men of the NFL are trying by kneeling, sitting and giving the black power salute to anger mainstream America instead of promoting racial harmony.  

 

The black young men are protesting racial profiling by profiling the American Anthem.  Up to them but I think it is as Trumpian as you calling me names. 

 

Wouldn't it serve a higher purpose to discuss ways to change the conditions that caused the NFL protests rather than try and exacerbate them?

 

Would you say mainstream America is  less upset by police brutality  ( endorsed by Trump) than by kneeling National Anthem peaceful protest ? 

[amvet]

12 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

It's the clown potus that inflamed the situation. He's the one that used OBSCENITY and insulted their mothers. Any moron knows the cultural thing with African Americans and their mothers. It was another typical trumpist racist dog whistle to his white resentment base.  Don't blame the protesters exercising their constitutional rights. 

I am not blaming them.  But like you and Trump they are trying to start a fight rather than have a discussion and change anything.  Dumb all around.  Obama did not get elected by starting fights.  You want progress look at him and Michelle and ask their advice.  

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, amvet said:

I am not blaming them.  But like you and Trump they are trying to start a fight rather than have a discussion and change anything dumb all around.  Obama did not get elected by starting fights.  You want progress look at him and Michelle and ask their advice.  

You are really being absurd now. 

Your comparing my posts on a Thailand forum to the destructive divisive RACE BAITING power of the worst president in the USA history, and anyone rational knows I mean the clown potus? 

[amvet]

29 minutes ago, Opl said:

 

Would you say mainstream America is  less upset by police brutality  ( endorsed by Trump) than by kneeling National Anthem peaceful protest ? 

Police brutality in the recent past (after Vietnam) has only effected minorities.  Mainstream America has been effected by gang violence and random violence but in general crime has gone down as the population has aged.  I'd say the protests are not noticed even though the media is hyping them.  To specifically answer your question mainstream America is not upset by police brutality or NFL protests.  Korea maybe or taxes or health care but not football or anyone getting shot in E. St Louis or the South Side of Chicago.  

[amvet]

15 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You are really being absurd now. 

Your comparing my posts on a Thailand forum to the destructive divisive RACE BAITING power of the worst president in the USA history, and anyone rational knows I mean the clown potus? 

Perhaps you misunderstood me.  I said you are calling me names trying to bait me into a fight the same as Trump and the NFL players are doing.  Name calling and baiting and attempting to anger people does not encourage debate or change it encourages fighting and wars.

[Jingthing]

38 minutes ago, amvet said:

Perhaps you misunderstood me.  I said you are calling me names trying to bait me into a fight the same as Trump and the NFL players are doing.  Name calling and baiting and attempting to anger people does not encourage debate or change it encourages fighting and wars.

I did not literally call you any name. I did characterize my impression of your POV with words. Not the same thing. 

 

I can hear all your talking points daily on Fox News. Not particularly enlightening. 

[ilostmypassword]

1 hour ago, amvet said:

Police brutality in the recent past (after Vietnam) has only effected minorities.  Mainstream America has been effected by gang violence and random violence but in general crime has gone down as the population has aged.  I'd say the protests are not noticed even though the media is hyping them.  To specifically answer your question mainstream America is not upset by police brutality or NFL protests.  Korea maybe or taxes or health care but not football or anyone getting shot in E. St Louis or the South Side of Chicago.  

HOw has mainstream America been affected by gang violence? Do people who live in low rent areas of urban American qualify as part of the mainstream? And the decline in crime has been far more precipitous than the aging of the us population. Not really a good explanation.

[Thakkar]

1 hour ago, amvet said:

Perhaps you misunderstood me.  I said you are calling me names trying to bait me into a fight the same as Trump and the NFL players are doing.  Name calling and baiting and attempting to anger people does not encourage debate or change it encourages fighting and wars.

 

I am sorry but what Trump did is in no way the same as what Colin Kaepernick started.

 

We agree on the problem Kaepernick is trying to bring attention to.  I’d venture that Trump doesn’t think there *is* a problem, assuming he even thinks about this issue at all.

 

We disagree on the appropriateness of Kaepernick’s methods, but I think we can agree on its lack of efficacy although our reasons for that sad lack of a meaningful outcome will no doubt differ.

 

Trump, with his despicable statement is not actually protesting any injustice  as the NFL players are; he is demanding some kind of proscribed behavior towards the anthem, which is an unconstitutional demand. When the Commander in Chief makes an unconstitutional demand, that is chilling.

 

But I think it’s more than that. I think he is being utterly cynical and using the issue to shore up is base support.

 

And I use the word “base” in all it’s meanings.

 

While it may seem like, with Trump’s comments, the debate has shifted from “police treatment of blacks” to “respect the anthem” this thread and other discussions across America shows that a protest that was largely being ignored has been given new impetus.

 

As long as there is discussion, there is hope.

[Publicus]

On 10/2/2017 at 7:20 PM, amvet said:

You are of course entitled to your opinion but Ruth and I think he's dumb.

 

It is of course unstated that you are entitled to your opinion.

 

What is stated and what is unmistakable throughout the thread is that it makes you highly vulnerable.

 

Kaepernick's contract and payments is yet another instance of it. No disrespect intended of course.