Trump clashes with sports world over player protests, invitation

[attrayant]

5 minutes ago, amvet said:

For lack of anything else.  If you want to publish a guide to kneeling or standing during the playing of national anthems I'm sure everyone would consider it when evaluating whether do kneel or stand or sit or raise a fist.  

 

People don't know what to do unless they have instructions?  You're treading perilously close to the "moral behavior comes from a holy document" argument.  I know the right thing to do without being told.  Your "right thing to do" might be different from mine.

 

 Making somebody salute the flag with your boot on their throat is NOT patriotism.

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by attrayant
added quote

[Andaman Al]

1 minute ago, amvet said:

Sportsmen are mercenaries and play for whatever country pays the most money I don't see it has anything to do with nationality. 

So you have chased around and caught your own tail then. SO your real argument is that it is pointless playing the anthems as sportsmen are all mercenaries (funny term for a sportsman) and it (playing sport) has nothing to do with Nationality.

 

Actually you are wrong, a sportsman can go and play in any league in any country in any sport he wishes, just like you can chose to work anywhere in the world - it's their job (does that make people "mercenaries" if they work in Thailand when they are not Thai?). BUT if the sportsman is representing his country then he must be a citizen of that country.

[amvet]

1 minute ago, Andaman Al said:

So you have chased around and caught your own tail then. SO your real argument is that it is pointless playing the anthems as sportsmen are all mercenaries (funny term for a sportsman) and it (playing sport) has nothing to do with Nationality.

 

Actually you are wrong, a sportsman can go and play in any league in any country in any sport he wishes, just like you can chose to work anywhere in the world - it's their job (does that make people "mercenaries" if they work in Thailand when they are not Thai?). BUT if the sportsman is representing his country then he must be a citizen of that country.

You can call them mercenaries. or expats or or anything else.  I don't see any point in playing an Anthem at a sporting event.  However if you are going to play one act appropriately.  I don't see any reason why a boxer should make the sign of the cross before he fights but I'll give him the space to do so and not mock him when he does by raising a fist or in some other way mocking his beliefs. 

[Credo]

3 minutes ago, amvet said:

You can call them mercenaries. or expats or or anything else.  I don't see any point in playing an Anthem at a sporting event.  However if you are going to play one act appropriately.  I don't see any reason why a boxer should make the sign of the cross before he fights but I'll give him the space to do so and not mock him when he does by raising a fist or in some other way mocking his beliefs. 

Religion is a little different from a national anthem, but I wonder if you would feel the same way if he rolled out a prayer mat and started praying in Arabic.   

 

Kneeling is a sign of protest, it is not disruptive, it is not disrespectful, except in the mind of some.   

 

 

[amvet]

6 minutes ago, Credo said:

Religion is a little different from a national anthem, but I wonder if you would feel the same way if he rolled out a prayer mat and started praying in Arabic.   

 

Kneeling is a sign of protest, it is not disruptive, it is not disrespectful, except in the mind of some.  

Not only did the football players kneel they sat and raised their fists.  I know the kneeling sounds better but it's not the only form of protest.  Next it will be mooning and flipping the bird as that seems the logical progression from 1.  Kneeling to 2. Sitting 3.  Raised fist 4. Raised fist shouting black power/black lives matter and then so on and so on. 

Edited October 2, 2017 by amvet

[wayned]

3 minutes ago, Credo said:

Kneeling is a sign of protest,

Really!  I think that there are a lot of Catholics that would disagree with you!

[attrayant]

13 minutes ago, amvet said:

I don't see any reason why a boxer should make the sign of the cross before he fights but I'll give him the space to do so and not mock him when he does by raising a fist or in some other way mocking his beliefs. 

 

How about if he doesn't want to make such a sign, would that be okay too?

[eddysmit]

On 9/25/2017 at 7:31 AM, FreddieRoyle said:

This is the equivalent of refusing to stand up in the cinema during Thai national anthem. It is a cross between hatred for their homeland and bad manners verging on plain stupidity. I would have them all fired, until decorum returns to sport. Sad fact is these guys are not employed for their brains - they are just physically fit. I know a medic, physio trainer working for one of the UK's premier footy teams, he said they are all as "daft as a brush". They deserve a salary in line with your average WalMart shelf stocker.

If the protesters were honest they would admit it's just a follow on from the old 'Black Panthers', anti white protest, by mostly ones that are far wealthier than the average white person,with a few white gullible ones joining in.

[amvet]

7 minutes ago, attrayant said:

 

How about if he doesn't want to make such a sign, would that be okay too?

Same as the anthem.  You just have to stand there.  Nothing else.  No one would say anything if a person just stands there. 

[stevenl]

16 minutes ago, amvet said:

Not only did the football players kneel they sat and raised their fists.  I know the kneeling sounds better but it's not the only form of protest.  Next it will be mooning and flipping the bird as that seems the logical progression from 1.  Kneeling to 2. Sitting 3.  Raised fist 4. Raised fist shouting black power/black lives matter and then so on and so on. 

And that would all be to blame on DT for interfering in something he should have stayed out of.

[amvet]

12 minutes ago, wayned said:

Really!  I think that there are a lot of Catholics that would disagree with you!

That's just silly on many fronts.  1.  There are also people sitting and standing with fist raised at the same time others kneeling during the National Anthem.  2.  There are times Catholics kneel and times they stand.  If you stand at mass when everyone else is kneeling and kneel when everyone is standing and sing when everyone else is quiet, Catholics would get upset.  3.  It is not the kneeling it is kneeling or doing something else besides standing quietly during the playing of the National Anthem.

[amvet]

4 minutes ago, stevenl said:

And that would all be to blame on DT for interfering in something he should have stayed out of.

OK I'll bite.  Follow that thought to it's logical conclusion.  Many ways to go.  All of them rather odd and I'm sure off topic.  You might want to consider Kaepernick began before DT was President and how does that work?

[ilostmypassword]

15 minutes ago, eddysmit said:

If the protesters were honest they would admit it's just a follow on from the old 'Black Panthers', anti white protest, by mostly ones that are far wealthier than the average white person,with a few white gullible ones joining in.

And it's clear from your post what you would admit if you were honest.

[eddysmit]

4 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

And it's clear from your post what you would admit if you were honest.

Well to be 'honest' your reply has put me in a bit of a quandary,should I speak my true thoughts or follow someone else's thoughts,like your thoughts for instance,just being honest,I will stick to what I can see the protesters are really up to.

[wayned]

14 minutes ago, amvet said:

That's just silly on many fronts.  1.  There are also people sitting and standing with fist raised at the same time others kneeling during the National Anthem.  2.  There are times Catholics kneel and times they stand.  If you stand at mass when everyone else is kneeling and kneel when everyone is standing and sing when everyone else is quiet, Catholics would get upset.  3.  It is not the kneeling it is kneeling or doing something else besides standing quietly during the playing of the National Anthem.

I just quoted exactly what you said "kneeling is a sign of protest"  your words, not mine.

[stevenl]

11 minutes ago, amvet said:

OK I'll bite.  Follow that thought to it's logical conclusion.  Many ways to go.  All of them rather odd and I'm sure off topic.  You might want to consider Kaepernick began before DT was President and how does that work?

Thanks for your confirmation that DT fueled a very, very light fire with gasoline.

[amvet]

1 minute ago, stevenl said:

Thanks for your confirmation that DT fueled a very, very light fire with gasoline.

You didn't read my post.  DT was not there.  He wasn't even elected President yet.

[amvet]

3 minutes ago, wayned said:

I just quoted exactly what you said "kneeling is a sign of protest"  your words, not mine.

I guess you missed these

[inThailand]

The NBA doesn't want the publicity nightmare the NFL has.

 

According to the memo, obtained by ESPN, "the league office will determine how to deal with any possible instance in which a player, coach, or trainer does not stand for the anthem."

The memo goes on to say the rule is compulsory ... teams "do not have the discretion to waive" the rule.

[stevenl]

22 minutes ago, amvet said:

You didn't read my post.  DT was not there.  He wasn't even elected President yet.

Sigh

[Andaman Al]

30 minutes ago, amvet said:

I guess you missed these

 

Well at the time of the photo of the guy sitting there is no national anthem being played is there, if you look at the people around him. (by the way you resize photos by double clicking on them and resizing before you insert them)

 

And I guess you missed these!

 

11 hours ago, Andaman Al said:

 

 

 

 

 

And to keep you happy for the second photo you give, we even have Trump doing one of those 

 

 

 

 

 

One mans disrespect is another mans acceptable behaviour?

 

[amvet]

11 minutes ago, Andaman Al said:

 

Well at the time of the photo of the guy sitting there is no national anthem being played is there, if you look at the people around him. (by the way you resize photos by double clicking on them and resizing before you insert them)

 

And I guess you missed these!

One mans disrespect is another mans acceptable behaviour?

Trump was not disrespecting the playing of the National Anthem.  Disrespect would be kneeling or sitting or raising a fist in protest and he did none of those things during the playing of the National Anthem.  Be adult eh if you want me to respond further. 

[amvet]

56 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Sigh

The protest started before Trump and anyone except another black President would have engendered the same response.  This is evidenced by the low turnout of votes for Hillary as opposed to Obama. 

[stevenl]

22 minutes ago, amvet said:

Trump was not disrespecting the playing of the National Anthem.  Disrespect would be kneeling or sitting or raising a fist in protest and he did none of those things during the playing of the National Anthem.  Be adult eh if you want me to respond further. 

The rules that you say should be obeyed are:

" (C) all other persons (not military) present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and "

 

But you deem it disrespect if people not stand but have the right had over the heart, but totally acceptable if they don't stand at attention with the right hand over the heart.

Please explain.

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by stevenl

[klikster]

6 hours ago, amvet said:

(C) all other persons (not military) present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and

 

Seems as if any number of folks in this topic have mentally substituted "are required to"...

 

[amvet]

8 minutes ago, stevenl said:

The rules that you say should be obeyed are:

" (C) all other persons (not military) present should face the flag and stand at attention with their right hand over the heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart; and "

 

But you deem it disrespect if people not stand but have the right had over the heart, but totally acceptable if they don't stand at attention with the right hand over the heart.

Please explain.

 

Kneeling or sitting or raising a fist in this situation is protest in any country.  Hand over heart may or may not be depending on the person or circumstance for example the person singing, a hot dog vendor or a person with big breasts or it may simply have been forgotten its not an obvious act of protest.  You seem to forget the footballers want you to know they are being disrespectful and that is the point of doing it. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, inThailand said:

Fans and viewers should walk out after any player disrespects the anthem or flag. Once this affects the sponsors they will stop this.

 

So you don't like people protesting during the national anthem.

 

But you're OK with repeated incidents of innocent black people in the U.S. being shot dead or beaten/tased by police and generally no repercussion from that?

 

More to the point, however, the protest by the players has never been meant or intended to disrespect the country, flag, anthem or similar.

 

As Thakkar posted previously in this thread:

 

Quote

 

Eric Reid, former teammate of Colin Kaepernick, in an op-ed for The New York Times:

 

“After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.

It baffles me that our protest is still being misconstrued as disrespectful to the country, flag and military personnel. We chose it because it’s exactly the opposite. It has always been my understanding that the brave men and women who fought and died for our country did so to ensure that we could live in a fair and free society, which includes the right to speak out in protest.”

 

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[stevenl]

14 minutes ago, amvet said:

Kneeling or sitting or raising a fist in this situation is protest in any country.  Hand over heart may or may not be depending on the person or circumstance for example the person singing, a hot dog vendor or a person with big breasts or it may simply have been forgotten its not an obvious act of protest.  You seem to forget the footballers want you to know they are being disrespectful and that is the point of doing it. 

double sigh.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

All of this coming from a President and like minded white nationalists who think it's perfectly American to have American Nazis and KKK sympathizers running around claiming America should only be for white people.

 

Trump and his ilk don't seem to mind when white nationalists go parading in the streets with Swastikas and hate and bigotry. But let NFL football players kneel down during the national anthem in protest over police brutality against minorities, and you'd think the country is coming undone. 

[inThailand]

14 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

So you don't like people protesting during the national anthem.

 

But you're OK with repeated incidents of innocent black people in the U.S. being shot dead or beaten/tased by police and generally no repercussion from that?

 

More to the point, however, the protest by the players has never been meant or intended to disrespect the country, flag, anthem or similar.

 

As Thakkar posted previously in this thread:

 

 

Protest all you want but Not during the anthem.

The players hear an anthem that is about 3 minutes long out of 7 days x 24 hours, 10,080 minutes minus 3 minutes. So 10,077 minutes is not enough protest time versus 3 minutes of showing respect?