Kurds stick with independence vote, 'never going back to Baghdad' - Barzani

[webfact]

Kurds stick with independence vote, 'never going back to Baghdad' - Barzani

By Maher Chmaytelli and Daren Butler

 

Iraqi Kurdish president Masoud Barzani speaks during a news conference in Erbil, Iraq September 24, 2017. REUTERS/Azad Lashkari

 

ERBIL, Iraq/ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Iraq's Kurds will go ahead with a referendum on independence on Monday because their partnership with Baghdad has failed, Kurdistan Regional Government President Massoud Barzani said on Sunday, shrugging off international opposition to the vote.

 

In response, the Iraqi government asked the autonomous Kurdish region to hand over control of its international border posts, its international airports and called on foreign countries to stop importing Kurdish crude oil.

 

It asked "the neighbouring countries and the countries of the world to deal exclusively with the federal government of Iraq in regards to entry posts and oil," according to a statement from Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi's office.

 

The United States and other Western powers have urged Kurdish authorities in the oil producing region to cancel the vote, arguing that it distracts from the fight against Islamic State.

 

Turkey and Iran have also kept up the pressure to stop the vote, with presidents Tayyip Erdogan and Hassan Rouhani speaking by phone and expressing concern that it will "bring chaos in the region", according to Erdogan's office.

 

Barzani, at a news conference at his headquarters near Erbil, dismissed the worries of Iraq's neighbours, committing to respect laws on international boundaries and not seek to redraw the region's borders.

 

"We will never go back to the failed partnership" with Baghdad, he said, adding Iraq had become a "theocratic, sectarian state" and not the democratic one that was supposed to be built after the 2003 overthrow of Saddam Hussein.

 

The vote, expected to result in a comfortable "yes" to independence, is not binding and is meant to give the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) a mandate to negotiate secession with Baghdad and the neighbouring countries.

 

Barzani said Iraq's Kurds would seek talks with the Shi'ite-led central government to implement the expected "yes" outcome, even if they take two years or more, to settle land and oil sharing disputes ahead of independence.

 

Abadi's government in Iraq regards the referendum as anti-constitutional and in a televised address on Sunday he said it "could lead to ethnic divisions, exposing (the Iraqis) to disastrous dangers that only God knows."

 

IRANIAN, TURKISH STEPS

 

Earlier, Iranian authorities stopped air traffic to Iraqi Kurdistan's international airports at Erbil and Sulaimaniya in response to a request from Baghdad, Fars News Agency said. Iran also started war games at the Kurdish border.

 

Speaking by telephone with Abadi, Iran's Rouhani voiced support for Iraq’s national unity and territorial integrity, the state news agency IRNA reported.

 

"Iran fully supports Iraq’s central government," Rouhani was quoted as telling Abadi.

 

On Saturday, Turkey's parliament voted to extend by a year a mandate authorising the deployment of Turkish troops in Iraq and Syria.

 

Turkey has also vowed political, economic and security steps without specifying what they are, but Turkish Prime Minister Binali Yildirim reinforced the message on Sunday.

 

Turkey is the transit route of all crude exported by the landlocked Kurdistan region of Iraq.

 

"Turkey will never ever tolerate any status change or any new formations on its southern borders," he said in a speech in the capital Ankara. "The KRG will be primarily responsible for the probable developments after this referendum."

 

But Barzani said Ankara "won't benefit" economically should it close the border with Iraqi Kurdistan.

 

Tehran and Ankara fear the spread of separatism to their own Kurds. Iran also supports Shi'ite groups who have been ruling or holding key security and government positions in Iraq since the U.S-led invasion which toppled Saddam Hussein.

 

Barzani said Kurds will "keep extending their hand" to Iran and Turkey, even if they do not reciprocate. He said he recently met in the Kurdish region Iranian Revolutionary Guard Commander Qassem Soleimani, who came to convince him to delay the vote.

 

The KRG has resisted calls to delay the referendum by the United Nations, the United States and Britain who fear it could lead to unrest in disputed areas like multi-ethnic oil-rich Kirkuk, as well as distracting from the war on Islamic State.

 

But the Iraqi Kurds say the vote acknowledges their crucial contribution in confronting Islamic State after it overwhelmed the Iraqi army in 2014 and seized control of a third of Iraq.

 

Kurdish Peshmerga fighters who control Kirkuk were given instructions not to respond to any provocation meant to disrupt the vote, but they will defend the region if attacked from outside, he said.

 

The U.S. embassy in Iraq warned its citizens that there might be unrest during the referendum, especially in disputed areas like Kirkuk, also claimed by the Iraqi central government.

 

The Iranian military drills, part of annual events held in Iran to mark the beginning of the 1980-1988 war with Iraq, were launched in the Oshnavieh border region, according to Iranian State broadcaster IRIB.

 

Turkey's military said on Sunday its aircraft launched strikes against Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) targets in northern Iraq's Gara region on Saturday after spotting militants preparing to attack Turkish military outposts on the border.

 

(Additional reporting by Dubai newsroom; Writing by Maher Chmaytelli and Daren Butler; Editing by Toby Chopra, Jane Merriman and Mary Milliken)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-09-25

[Credo]

I hope the US gives the Kurds its unconditional support on their path to independence.   They have been one of the most positive forces in the region and have survived horrible persecution from Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria.   

 

They have earned the right to an independent homeland.   

 

 

[Thorgal]

3 minutes ago, Credo said:

I hope the US gives the Kurds its unconditional support on their path to independence.   They have been one of the most positive forces in the region and have survived horrible persecution from Iraq, Turkey, Iran and Syria.   

 

They have earned the right to an independent homeland.   

 

 

 

There's no real difference between Ochalan from PKK and let's say ETA...which are labeled as terrorists...

[Scott]

1 minute ago, Thorgal said:

 

There's no real difference between Ochalan from PKK and let's say ETA...which are labeled as terrorists...

The independence vote for Iraqi Kurdistan -- it does not include Turkey, but Turkey is very afraid it will spread.   The Iraqi Kurds two main political parties, PUK and KDP aren't and have never been labeled as a terrorist organization.  

 

 

[Rancid]

Interestingly there are photos of trucks driving around Erbil flying the Israeli flag above the Kurdish flag, I wonder what that is symbolic of?

[Thorgal]

23 minutes ago, Rancid said:

Interestingly there are photos of trucks driving around Erbil flying the Israeli flag above the Kurdish flag, I wonder what that is symbolic of?

 

Barzani family (tribe) has always been allied with Israel since the 60's. The only country (afik) who openly supports independent Kurdistan is the State of Israel.

 

"Kurdistan" in Irak is against all logic. Kurds do not originate from the northern region of Irak. Many oil rich areas in Iraq have been occupied now by the Kurds. This against the will of the central Iraqi government.

 

Kurdistan as nominated/promissed during the conference in Sevres (France) in 1920 was originally located in Turkey. Never in Irak.

 

Israeli alliance with Barzani is not adopted by all Kurds...

[Scott]

I've never seen any Israeli flags flown in Northern Iraq, nor have I ever heard anything positive about Israel while I lived there, but they didn't seemed inclined to spew the hatred I witnessed in other regions.   I wouldn't doubt there is a relationship between Barzani and Israel.

 

The region, including parts of Turkey and into Iran are where the Kurds originated and have lived.   It is historically their homeland.

 

 

[Thorgal]

56 minutes ago, Scott said:

The independence vote for Iraqi Kurdistan -- it does not include Turkey, but Turkey is very afraid it will spread.   The Iraqi Kurds two main political parties, PUK and KDP aren't and have never been labeled as a terrorist organization.  

 

 

 

Was actually Barzani who invited the Turkish army to bomb the region. It's not always clear which enemy jas been targeted. Syrian and Turkish Kurds were not really amused with this coalition...

 

Moreover, not really published openly, but some Kurds are also fighting for ISIS and/or Al Nusra.

 

Armenian genocide in Turkey was also linked to the Kurds, who became later on separatists against the Turkish government.

 

I would think twice before giving the autonomy...

[Scott]

Barzani (KDP), had no problem with Turkey conducting bombing raids on Jalal Talabani and PUK, when they were warring factions.  

 

I have no reason to believe that any significant number of Kurds were fighters for ISIS.  There may have been a very, very small number, but I would suggest they were about as common as White Europeans, who also joined ISIS.

 

My neighbor in Sulemaniya was Armenian and spent almost all of her life in Iraqi Kurdistan. Her family had escaped from Turkey to Iraq to escape the persecution of the Armenians  She was a teacher and we spent considerable time discussing politics and history.     She was quite knowledgeable about the genocide, but never mentioned any Kurdish involvement.   I am reasonably sure she would have -- she was quite outspoken about most things.  

 

I don't know that the Kurds will be 'given' independence.   Like many things in the region, it will most likely be done violently to some extent.  

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

21 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

 

 

Moreover, not really published openly, but some Kurds are also fighting for ISIS and/or Al Nusra.

 

Armenian genocide in Turkey was also linked to the Kurds, who became later on separatists against the Turkish government.

 

I would think twice before giving the autonomy...

 

"Moreover, not really published openly, but some Kurds are also fighting for ISIS and/or Al Nusra."

Published anywhere?

"Armenian genocide in Turkey was also linked to the Kurds, who became later on separatists against the Turkish government."

Passive statement that don't provide supporting evidence should never be believed..

[Thorgal]

34 minutes ago, ilostmypassword said:

 

"Moreover, not really published openly, but some Kurds are also fighting for ISIS and/or Al Nusra."

Published anywhere?

"Armenian genocide in Turkey was also linked to the Kurds, who became later on separatists against the Turkish government."

Passive statement that don't provide supporting evidence should never be believed..

 

Quote from link:

 

“In those years, elderly Kurds began to share their memories of the Armenian genocide with their children and grandchildren. There were Kurds who protected their Armenian neighbors. But many people assisted the perpetrators by rounding people up or by killing them,” Baysal said.

“Many Kurds felt ashamed of that. I feel ashamed of it. I travel a lot, and when I meet Armenians, I always apologize for what the Kurds have done.”

 

https://www.pri.org/stories/kurds-turkey-atone-their-role-armenian-genocide

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Thorgal

[Scott]

The genocide against the Armenians was conducted by the Turkish government.   There are Kurds in Turkey, so naturally there would be some involved.   Please note it also said that many Kurds protected their neighbors.  

 

As far as ISIS fighters, the number is pretty small with many coming from overseas or Turkey.   

https://www.quora.com/How-many-Kurds-are-fighting-for-ISIS-and-how-many-have-joined-ISIS

 

But this topic is about an independence vote -- not how horrible the Kurds are.  

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

15 minutes ago, Scott said:

The genocide against the Armenians was conducted by the Turkish government.   There are Kurds in Turkey, so naturally there would be some involved.   Please note it also said that many Kurds protected their neighbors.  

 

As far as ISIS fighters, the number is pretty small with many coming from overseas or Turkey.   

https://www.quora.com/How-many-Kurds-are-fighting-for-ISIS-and-how-many-have-joined-ISIS

 

But this topic is about an independence vote -- not how horrible the Kurds are.  

 

 

There's also this from that article Thorgal linked to:

"But here in the Kurdish-dominated southeast, things are different. Many Armenians were killed at the hands of Kurds, but unlike the rest of Turkey, the Kurds — who have since faced severe repression themselves — are beginning to atone."

And the fact is that these events happened about 100 years ago. No living Kurd could even conceivably be held responsible. But if Thorgal does want to go that route, what does that say about Germans and their appalling record of genocide as 73 years ago? Or other nations? 

[Thorgal]

2 hours ago, Scott said:

The genocide against the Armenians was conducted by the Turkish government.   There are Kurds in Turkey, so naturally there would be some involved.   Please note it also said that many Kurds protected their neighbors.  

 

As far as ISIS fighters, the number is pretty small with many coming from overseas or Turkey.   

https://www.quora.com/How-many-Kurds-are-fighting-for-ISIS-and-how-many-have-joined-ISIS

 

But this topic is about an independence vote -- not how horrible the Kurds are.  

 

 

 

Kurds from Syria and Irak are both refugees coming from Turkey. They were originally  Persian nomads.

 

I don't see why they should earn independency in an oily region in Irak that was historically never a Kurdish region.

 

And yes, they had US air support and boots on the ground to achieve this...

Edited September 25, 2017 by Thorgal

[ilostmypassword]

48 minutes ago, Thorgal said:

 

Kurds from Syria and Irak are both refugees coming from Turkey. They were originally  Persian nomads.

 

I don't see why they should earn independency in an oily region in Irak that was historically never a Kurdish region.

 

And yes, they had US air support and boots on the ground to achieve this...

And the Turks were historicall nomads from the Asian Steppes. Maybe they should give Istanbul - oops make that Byzantium - back to the Greeks.

And the Turks were historically nomads from the Asian Steppes. Maybe they should give Istanbul - oops make that Byzantium - back to the Greeks.

And as for the Kurds, they historically have occupied the Zagros mountains.

 

The Zagros Mountains (Persian: رشته كوه زاگرس‎‎, Kurdish: زنجیره‌چیای زاگرۆس‎; Çiyayên Zagrosê, Lurish: کۆیەلی زاگروس, Syriac: ܛܘ̣ܪܵܢܹܐ ܕܙܵܓܪܘ̇ܣ‎, Arabic: جبال زغروس ‎‎ Aramaic: ܛܘܪ ܙܪܓܣ,) form the largest mountain range in Iran, Iraq and southeastern Turkey. This mountain range has a total length of 1,500 km (932 mi). The Zagros mountain range begins in northwestern Iran and roughly corresponds to Iran's western border, and it spans the whole length of the western and southwestern Iranian plateau, ending at the Strait of Hormuz. The highest point in the Zagros Mountains is Dena.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagros_Mountains

Edited September 25, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[chilli42]

7 hours ago, Thorgal said:

 

There's no real difference between Ochalan from PKK and let's say ETA...which are labeled as terrorists...

Labels .... I would think the label at home is freedom fighter.  Labels are convenient but meaningless

[chilli42]

Iraq, Iran, Turkey all fear the prospect of a protracted conflict with the Kurds, to protect soverinty of their respective Kurdish areas, that certainly will result from this succession/independence movement.  Seems the Kurds want to put right the shafting they were given at the end of WWI by US/UK/France.  Can't say I blame them.  Having no homeland has led to years of abuse by Iraq/Iran and Turkey.  The time is right to strike while things are in their favor - they are well armed, in control of land, their adversaries in Syria and Iraq are weak and they are "owed" a solid by US/Europe.  Good luck to them.  It's been a long time coming.  The only thing I dislike is that war with the Kurds further strengthens Erdegon's position at home.

[Stargeezr]

The Kurds deserve a homeland of their own.  They may have had a shady past but so has Iraq, Iran, and most of the other countries, Afghanistan, and others. They fought hard against ISIL even when Iraq regular army dropped their weapons and let ISIL get weapons from the depots in Iraq.

Geezer

[outre99]

On 9/25/2017 at 10:31 AM, Thorgal said:

 

Was actually Barzani who invited the Turkish army to bomb the region. It's not always clear which enemy jas been targeted. Syrian and Turkish Kurds were not really amused with this coalition...

 

Moreover, not really published openly, but some Kurds are also fighting for ISIS and/or Al Nusra.

 

Armenian genocide in Turkey was also linked to the Kurds, who became later on separatists against the Turkish government.

 

I would think twice before giving the autonomy...

"Giving the autonomy"  - what an arrogant, imperialist things to say.  They don't need you to give them anything.  They have earned their homeland by fighting, and dying, and organizing the most stable region in Iraq since the ouster of Saddam.  Not to mention that they have been screwed over and over by the west for generations.  Kurds are the largest ethnic group without their own state.  It's time they got it.

As far as the alliance with Israel, that makes perfect sense.  Israel is surrounded by enemies in the region.  They'll be happy with having another secular, democratic ally.  

And lastly the "afraid that the separatism will spread" is feeble minded logic that is nothing but excuse for defending the status quo.  When Kurdistan is formed it's unlikely that the Kurds in other parts of the region would try to create their own.  It's much more likely that they pack up and join their brothers and sisters in their new country, similar to what happened when Israel was formed.  

The West will do well to welcome and support the new secular state in the middle East.  And <deleted> Turkey,  it's already a dictatorship with the theocratic flavor.  Very glad to hear that Merkel finally stopped the EU membership nonsense for it.   

[nausea]

4 hours ago, outre99 said:

When Kurdistan is formed it's unlikely that the Kurds in other parts of the region would try to create their own.  It's much more likely that they pack up and join their brothers and sisters in their new country, similar to what happened when Israel was formed.  

So 15-20% of the population of Turkey, 15-20 million people, is going to up sticks and move to the new Kurdistan?

 

21 hours ago, chilli42 said:

The time is right to strike while things are in their favor - they are well armed, in control of land, their adversaries in Syria and Iraq are weak

I agree, it's now or never.

 

'they are "owed" a solid by US/Europe" '

 

I think if realpolitik dictates they be thrown to the wolves, thrown to the wolves they will be.

 

 

[outre99]

2 hours ago, nausea said:

So 15-20% of the population of Turkey, 15-20 million people, is going to up sticks and move to the new Kurdistan?

 

I agree, it's now or never.

 

'they are "owed" a solid by US/Europe" '

 

I think if realpolitik dictates they be thrown to the wolves, thrown to the wolves they will be.

 

 

no,  it's self selection.  people who feel very strongly about independence will move.  the rest are ok being citizens of their current countries.  that's exactly what happened with the Jewish diaspora.  some moved to Israel, many stayed where they were without trying to create another Jewish state.

[Scott]

When I was living in Northern Iraq, I was always surprised at how little the Iraqi Kurds had to do with the Turkish Kurds and vice versa.  The Turkish military was quite brutal and there were some well known incidents along the border, but when I asked why there wasn't more sympathy, they response was usually on the lines of "we have our own problems".  

 

The PKK was the biggest, or at least the most high profile political entity,  and being considered a terrorist organization, there was little or no contact between the Iraqi Kurdish parties and the PKK.   When PKK fighters would escape across the border into Iraq, they were pursued by the Turkish military, which meant the bombing of local villages.  The Turkish Kurds are also, for the most part, from different tribal groupings.  

 

It remains to be seen whether Kurds will be openly welcoming to those from neighboring countries to resettle.   I suspect they will, but to how warm of a welcome remains to be seen.  

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Scott said:

When I was living in Northern Iraq, I was always surprised at how little the Iraqi Kurds had to do with the Turkish Kurds and vice versa.  The Turkish military was quite brutal and there were some well known incidents along the border, but when I asked why there wasn't more sympathy, they response was usually on the lines of "we have our own problems".  

 

The PKK was the biggest, or at least the most high profile political entity,  and being considered a terrorist organization, there was little or no contact between the Iraqi Kurdish parties and the PKK.   When PKK fighters would escape across the border into Iraq, they were pursued by the Turkish military, which meant the bombing of local villages.  The Turkish Kurds are also, for the most part, from different tribal groupings.  

 

It remains to be seen whether Kurds will be openly welcoming to those from neighboring countries to resettle.   I suspect they will, but to how warm of a welcome remains to be seen.  

 

So what would you like to see happen?

[Scott]

5 hours ago, Grouse said:

So what would you like to see happen?

What I'd like to see is the Kurds being treated equally throughout the region, but that is probably quite a ways in the future.   Short of that, I'd like to see them have autonomy and control within Iraq, but that doesn't seem to be a realistic goal -- despite the autonomy that they have managed to get (most of it because of an extremely weak national gov't).   The last option, and I think the most popular is independence.  

 

My slight hesitance on independence is because of the strong negative attitude and behavior of all of their neighbors and the fact that they are landlocked.   Turkey is turning off the spigot for oil exports and Iran is preventing flights into the airports.  They are still in a tenuous position with all their neighbors.   

 

It would be nice to see a stable, democratic government within the region, but whether the Kurds can achieve that remains to be seen.   They certainly deserve a much stronger semblance of self-determination that they have had in the past.  

 

 

[outre99]

12 hours ago, Scott said:

What I'd like to see is the Kurds being treated equally throughout the region, but that is probably quite a ways in the future.   Short of that, I'd like to see them have autonomy and control within Iraq, but that doesn't seem to be a realistic goal -- despite the autonomy that they have managed to get (most of it because of an extremely weak national gov't).   The last option, and I think the most popular is independence.  

 

My slight hesitance on independence is because of the strong negative attitude and behavior of all of their neighbors and the fact that they are landlocked.   Turkey is turning off the spigot for oil exports and Iran is preventing flights into the airports.  They are still in a tenuous position with all their neighbors.   

 

It would be nice to see a stable, democratic government within the region, but whether the Kurds can achieve that remains to be seen.   They certainly deserve a much stronger semblance of self-determination that they have had in the past.  

 

 

Thanks for an interesting analysis.  I just read today that Syria had expressed willingness to negotiate with the Kurds.  Perhaps this is fortuitous timing for the new Kurdish state that will allow them to break their isolation by establishing trade and travel routes through Syria and thus bypass Turkish and Iranian blockades not to mention the hostile Iraq government.  Syria and Kurdistan could be allies from necessity.  And looks like Israel is welcoming as well.  It should be a rather simple choice for the West:  if theocratic Iran and Turkey are against it, they should be for it.  
Long live independent Kurdistan.