Should the British Government be responsible for housing and feeding ex-pats returning from Thailand?

[BangkokNicky]

At last something is being done about Greater Manchester's homeless problem

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/last-something-being-done-manchesters-13729225

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, BangkokNicky said:

Another friend, Barry, told us “I think Mark has been badly treated, it’s not fair that asylum seekers get all the help but the British are forgotten. As a British man I think Mark should have been offered a council house and benefits, he has paid into the system, he had a job 20 years ago in the UK and he paid tax then. So he likes a drink and a cigarette, it’s not right he should stop the things he enjoys because he is forced to choose between alcohol and food trying to live on seventy quid a week, this country needs to wake up and take care of its own”

 

he had a job 20 years ago in the UK and he paid tax then hello this is 2017 and not 20 years ago 

 

It's so very dangerous to apply criterion to basic entitlements, especially ones based on being a responsible citizen.  And it's rather counter-productive as pushing someone in to poverty can only make them even more of a burden.  I can only think of 'Mark' as a fool to himself, but also accept that he is not in control of his faculties due to addiction. 

 

I think we can all agree that he is currently beyond socialization; hardly in a position to be the ideal life partner, friend, or work mate.  But on the other side he is a victim of something- quite what is not so easy to define, yet we live in a time when money seems to define what we are, and what other people feel entitled and justified to do to us if we don't have any, or make poor life choices.  And the economic system we chose to embrace has a winner takes all mentality, whereby to attract wealth necessarily depends on someone else becoming poorer. 

 

Thirty or forty years ago people would not have been quite so harsh.  It's as if people really think there is no excuse for failure or disfunction.  That's what we are really talking about isn't it?  Mark reminds us of our own disease, and society's underlying malaise.  Mark is our sacrifice to the money gods.  It's that and the fact that the wheels have fallen off the great Neo-Liberal movement that many pinned their hopes and even their soul on. Society has changed and not for the better.  As one poster pointed out- it's as if people have been brainwashed. 

 

To be ordinary is to skirt poverty and misfortune.  You can't be ordinary these days it seems.

[BangkokNicky]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

It's so very dangerous to apply criterion to basic entitlements, especially ones based on being a responsible citizen.  And it's rather counter-productive as pushing someone in to poverty can only make them even more of a burden.  I can only think of 'Mark' as a fool to himself, but also accept that he is not in control of his faculties due to addiction. 

 

I think we can all agree that he is currently beyond socialization; hardly in a position to be the ideal life partner, friend, or work mate.  But on the other side he is a victim of something- quite what is not so easy to define, yet we live in a time when money seems to define what we are, and what other people feel entitled and justified to do to us if we don't have any, or make poor life choices.  And the economic system we chose to embrace has a winner takes all mentality, whereby to attract wealth necessarily depends on someone else becoming poorer. 

 

Thirty or forty years ago people would not have been quite so harsh.  It's as if people really think there is no excuse for failure or disfunction.  That's what we are really talking about isn't it?  Mark reminds us of our own disease, and society's underlying malaise.  Mark is our sacrifice to the money gods.  It's that and the fact that the wheels have fallen off the great Neo-Liberal movement that many pinned their hopes and even their soul on. Society has changed and not for the better.  As one poster pointed out- it's as if people have been brainwashed. 

 

To be ordinary is to skirt poverty and misfortune.  You can't be ordinary these days it seems.

i think a victim of himself and his abuse ..

[overherebc]

2 hours ago, BangkokNicky said:

i think a victim of himself and his abuse ..

And only he can be held responsible for it. It's no-one elses fault.

[Stradavarius37]

Mark is a moron.

Sent from my SM-N920C using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Get Real]

Luckily, according to the headline, this seems to be a specific UK problem. I guess it´s better to let them deal with the problem. They seem to handle everything so well at the moment. 

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 4:33 PM, Thai Ron said:

 

I can tell if someone's British or not, Einstein.

Usually by the way they look or the way they speak and, from what I saw, there were a hell of a lot of immigrants working shit jobs in cafes, fast food restaurants, stacking shelves, sweeping roads and cleaning toilets at hospitals. I'm not saying there aren't any immigrants taking the piss but you make out they're all at it like the typical little Englander

 

So come on then, Alf Garnett; when were you last in the UK to see all the scrounging immigrants you've been running you gob about throughout this thread and countless others??

 

 

I saw plenty of immigrants getting free treatment on the NHS when I worked in it, despite never paying any tax. Does that make them "scrounging"?

[billd766]

On 10/3/2017 at 10:59 PM, Machiavelli said:

I don't care. I'm busy. The population make up of the UK was different 200 years ago, is different now and will look completely different in 200 years time. Migration has been happening since humans started walking on two feet. Ethnic this and ethnic that is going to stop migration and certainly isn't going to stop woman breeding out of your beloved "ethnic" gene pool.

 

No answer then. Perhaps I found a weak spot in that you have no argument and are most probably a troll.

[dick dasterdly]

10 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Very funny, not true.

CAB or Citizens Advice Bureau are not lawyers and only give advice as the name says. In practicality it isn't like that:

 

I went back after living/working in Thailand for 5 years and was made to reestablish my British citizenship despite having a valid passport and born to English parents with a traceable history going back to the 1700s. I had worked and paid tax for 25 years before leaving. I got nothing for over 6 months until the tribunal decided in my favour.

I had returned to help look after my father who had been given a terminal diagnosis.

Good job I had family support (a sunbed to sleep on in my parents conservatory) and a few bob left in my UK bank to live on.

"Mark" I have little sympathy for, but others are more worthy of help from your own country than these economic migrants from eastern Europe and Africa etc.

Britain has no "camps" for refugees, but many parts of Europe have.  So called "refugees" are treated far better than that in the UK, but deadbeats like Mark are left on the street.

The "refugees" are desperate to get to the UK for that very reason: It is a soft touch...

PS. EEA countries are not all in the Schengen agreement

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think we can all agree that Mark (because of his relatively young age/addiction problems/inability to recognise that he needed to accept the rehab. offered) was the worst possible example on which to base the OP question.

 

But the above poster has made a good point.

 

I've no doubt that if I was unfortunate enough to go back to the UK, broke, I'd get bugger all from the 'state' until having proven that this was the case - when I'd receive the minimum payable.  Even then, the chances of social housing would be zero - so I'd either be reliant on friends for a roof over my head, or yet another destitute on the streets - regardless of the tax and N.I paid for decades previously. 

 

On the other hand, 'refugees' seem to receive immediate care and attention - especially if they have children with them.

 

The relatively recent appalling episode where 'child refugees' (many of whom were clearly young(ish) men) - were actually brought to the country to be given immediate assistance, could almost have been devised to annoy ordinary, tax paying Brits....

[MrPatrickThai]

On 10/3/2017 at 7:37 AM, inThailand said:

Better and cheaper to pay him enough to live with soi dogs in Thailand. 

You have no compassion and frankly no intelligence. Alcoholism is a disease and you, the UK government and others should know and try  to help the unfortunate guy. 

[MrPatrickThai]

5 hours ago, overherebc said:

And only he can be held responsible for it. It's no-one elses fault.

BS. Anyone can get a mental disorder, even you!

[overherebc]

16 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

BS. Anyone can get a mental disorder, even you!

Especially if you are a drug addict and alcoholic. Gives you a much better chance to screw up your mind.

[7by7]

14 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

And he and his family got housing and the "refugees" are in tents or living on the street?

 

Proof?

 

 

He returned alone; his family are still in Thailand where he left them. As such he is not a priority for social housing; as it says in the OP.

 

On ‎03‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 1:34 AM, webfact said:

Mark asked for help with housing, but, as a single man with no dependants he was low on the list of priorities

I had a similar experience when my wife and step daughter arrived to live with me. I knew we were not eligible for social housing until they had ILR, and we were living with my parents, to whom we are eternally grateful.

 

I had been looking for a private rent since before they arrived, and we continued to do so, but the cost of such where we live in the South East was way beyond our reach, even though we both worked. Buying somewhere was also out of the question due to the high prices, even then, and the consequently massive deposit required in order to get a mortgage.

 

So once they had ILR and we were eligible for social housing, we applied to our local council; where we live, housing associations take their tenants from the council waiting list.

 

We were on the waiting list for over 5 years before being offered a place. At our annual reviews the housing officer told us that they appreciated our situation was not ideal, but they had families sharing one room in bed and breakfasts who took priority over us. A situation we fully understood.

 

Are you really saying that this man, whose troubles are largely of his own making, should take priority over such families?

 

Like us, Mark had an offer of accommodation when he returned to the UK

On ‎03‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 1:34 AM, webfact said:

a solution that came when a friend found him a job on a building site in the UK that included free accommodation and paid for his ticket back home.

But he lost that, due to his alcohol problems.

 

Mark was offered accommodation in a hostel, but

On ‎03‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 1:34 AM, webfact said:

Upset by his new surroundings and having to share accommodation with drug and alcohol addicts

An alcoholic upset that he was sharing accommodation with other alcoholics! What did he expect; a suite at the Ritz?

 

I have had many conversations with homeless people, and always ask them why they do not seek help from various charities offering accommodation. I also direct them to the two in  the town where I live. Most wont go; the common reason being that they are not allowed to take drugs or drink in the hostels!

 

Offers of food are also often refused; they want the money instead. Easy to guess why.

 

I am not saying that every homeless person in the UK is a feckless drug addict or alcoholic, nor that drug addicts and alcoholics do not deserve help; far from it. But a significant proportion are in a situation of their own making, especially as they refuse help when it is offered to them; and from what it says in the OP, Mark is definitely in this group.

 

As for refugees; there are some who are homeless because they have entered the UK illegally and not reported themselves to the authorities in order to seek asylum. No one is going to deny that. Those who do report to the authorities and apply for asylum are housed by the government. Housed in bed and breakfasts, hostels or immigration detention centres.

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by 7by7
Spelling and grammer

[i claudius]

Why not they house and feed all the immegrants that jump off the back of a lorry.at least we paid in

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[7by7]

13 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

Very funny, not true.

CAB or Citizens Advice Bureau are not lawyers and only give advice as the name says. In practicality it isn't like that:

 

I went back after living/working in Thailand for 5 years and was made to reestablish my British citizenship despite having a valid passport and born to English parents with a traceable history going back to the 1700s. and had worked and paid tax for 25 years before leaving. I got nothing for over 6 months until the tribunal decided in my favour.

I had returned to help look after my father who had been given a terminal diagnosis.

Good job I had family support (a sunbed to sleep on in my parents conservatory) and a few bob left in my UK bank to live on.

"Mark" I have little sympathy for, but others are more worthy of help from your own country than these economic migrants from eastern Europe and Africa etc.

Britain has no "camps" for refugees, but many parts of Europe have.  So called "refugees" are treated far better than that in the UK, but deadbeats like Mark are left on the street.

The "refugees" are desperate to get to the UK for that very reason: It is a soft touch...

PS. EEA countries are not all in the Schengen agreement

 The CAB is a charity, but the people who give advice in local bureaux are not idiots. One such person is a good friend of mine who is a retired solicitor. certainly the people who write their website know their law.

 

But if you wont believe them how about New habitual residence test and the impact on returning UK nationals from a highly qualified and experienced lawyer and which contains links to the actual legislation.

 

As it says there, and I said before, whilst returning British expats are not entitled to income based JSA until they have been resident for at least three months they are entitled to other benefits.

 

I have no idea what you mean by

14 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

(I) was made to reestablish my British citizenship despite having a valid passport and born to English parents with a traceable history going back to the 1700s.

British citizenship never lapses! It can be removed, but only if obtained by naturalisation and even then one has to have been convicted of a very serious crime such as terrorism.

 

Perhaps you can tell us why you lost your citizenship and had to wait 6 months for a tribunal to give it back to you?

 

I know not all EEA countries are in the Schengen area; never said they were. The UK and RoI definitely aren't. But Schengen country or no, all EEA member sates, plus Switzerland, are signatories to and so bound by the freedom of movement directive.

[Puwa]

Yes, as penance for colonialism.

[norfolkandchance]

Can we have an early vote on POTY. Lots of candidates on this thread. Then again BS would dip out.

[SheungWan]

27 minutes ago, i claudius said:

Why not they house and feed all the immegrants that jump off the back of a lorry.at least we paid in

Sent from my SM-A720F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

The money you pay in is not equivalent to a retirement fund defined contribution scheme  . Claimants are assessed on current criteria, not that you appear to have the faintest idea what they are either.

[SheungWan]

13 hours ago, dbrenn said:

What a complete idiot. He's blown all his chances and any money he does get he'll spend on booze.

Just about sums it up.

[7by7]

15 hours ago, BangkokNicky said:

As a British man I think Mark should have been offered a council house and benefits, he has paid into the system, he had a job 20 years ago in the UK and he paid tax then.

 

14 hours ago, George FmplesdaCosteedback said:

I had worked and paid tax for 25 years before leaving. I got nothing for over 6 months until the tribunal decided in my favour.

 

3 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

so I'd either be reliant on friends for a roof over my head, or yet another destitute on the streets - regardless of the tax and N.I paid for decades previously. 

Some questions for the three of you, and anyone else who has made this point.

 

During the time you lived in the UK and paid tax, did you ever:-

• Travel on a public road?
• Use public transport?
• Have you rubbish collected by the local council?
• Send your children, if any, to school (even if you educated them privately, who do you think paid for their teachers' training)?
• Use the NHS, whether it be a hospital, GP or other service?
• Ever have cause to call on one of the emergency services; police, ambulance, fire service? Hopefully not, but they were all there had you needed them.

I could go on; the list of services paid for out of tax revenue, whether it be income tax, VAT, council tax etc., is long.

 

You all no doubt also paid NICs. Even if you have never claimed a contribution based benefit, the contributions you've already paid (provided you paid in for at least 10 years) will be returned to you in the form of your state pension when you reach the required age.

 

Yes, there are people who have never paid into the system directly who do receive state benefits; more of whom are British citizens born here, many of whom can, like George FmplesdaCosteed, trace their UK ancestry back generations, than refugees. Lazy Britain uncovered: How FOUR MILLION adults have never worked in their lives. 

Quote

More than a quarter of those who have never earned a living are aged between 25 to 64, and 205,000 over 65s had never worked before becoming pensioners.

Of course, that figure includes disabled people who are unable to work due to the nature of their disability; but the majority are not disabled at all.

 

Should they be denied state aid?

 

Of course, even those living off state aid, refugee, immigrant or British, pay tax; VAT on their clothes, heating etc.
 

Edited October 7, 2017 by 7by7

[MrPatrickThai]

5 hours ago, overherebc said:

Especially if you are a drug addict and alcoholic. Gives you a much better chance to screw up your mind.

You missed the point - he suffers from a disease called alcoholism - its not something that one decides to get! 

[MrPatrickThai]

2 hours ago, norfolkandchance said:

Can we have an early vote on POTY. Lots of candidates on this thread. Then again BS would dip out.

What is POTY?

[Spaniel]

........as he only had enough money for cigarettes and alcohol.          I think I see his problem.

[sanemax]

37 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

You missed the point - he suffers from a disease called alcoholism - its not something that one decides to get! 

Its not a disease though, its a past time that people participate in at their own free will .

  He has a Chance to "get better" every time he decides to drink

[MrPatrickThai]

5 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Its not a disease though, its a past time that people participate in at their own free will .

  He has a Chance to "get better" every time he decides to drink

The American Medical Association, The World Health Organization, American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American College of Physicians , Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine all disagree with you. But hey, maybe some here will believe you.

[mommysboy]

6 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Its not a disease though, its a past time that people participate in at their own free will .

  He has a Chance to "get better" every time he decides to drink

A pastime! 

 

Nobody with free will would make the sort of disastrous mistakes that he has made.  Addiction robs people of free will.

We're not just talking about some bloke who goes off the rails for a while, or someone that can't put the biccies down.

 

 

[sanemax]

Just now, MrPatrickThai said:

The American Medical Association, The World Health Organization, American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American College of Physicians , Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine all disagree with you. But hey, maybe some here will believe you.

Have they stated a cure for this "disease" ?

[mommysboy]

21 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Have they stated a cure for this "disease" ?

 

Death. I think.

 

Here's some guff on wiki:

Genetics and environment

According to the theory, genes play a strong role in the development of alcoholism.

Twin studies, adoption studies, and artificial selection studies have shown that a person's genes can predispose them to developing alcoholism. ...... blah di blah.

 

A disease does seem a strange term I must admit, as most of us associate that with something more tangible, such as blocked arteries, but I think there are changes in the alcoholic's brain.

 

There are different stages and severities.  A problem drinker certainly just needs support and will at some point pull himself together.  But this is a long way from OP.

 

Sadly, none of this would stop me from thinking- initially anyway- the same way as quite a few on this thread, and my best advice would be to avoid contact, since he is just a ball of destruction,eg, someone could have been caught up in the truck rolling incident.

 

But I wouldn't want him dying on the streets. 

Edited October 7, 2017 by mommysboy

[norfolkandchance]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

What is POTY?

Poster Of The Year

[MrPatrickThai]

2 hours ago, sanemax said:

Have they stated a cure for this "disease" ?

There are basically 3 options for a real alcoholic

1. Covered up

2. Locked up

3. Sobered up

 

It is a 3-faceted disease, which 99% of the population don't understand.

- a physical allergy to alcohol(causing craving to have more)

- a mental obsession(that this time it will be different)

 - a spiritual malady.