Partner wants to put house in my name

[khunPer]

On 10/7/2017 at 2:40 PM, lufc74 said:

My partner wants to put my name as owning her house, but isn't doing any thing with the land title, such as a lease.

If the house is already build, and owner is not already registered separate from the land, to my knowledge you cannot separate house ownership from land ownership; but do check with a lawyer.

 

Normally one can separate ownership from land for a new build house, where the owner – apart from a permission from the land owner – need all construction drawings, building permission, and all building construction contracts and money transfers to carry the owner's name, as that is the only initial proof of house ownership. The new build house's owner can sell the house only, and the next owner can be registered. A house owner can be registered in the House Book (Yellow for foreigners) as "Master of House", but that does not state legal ownership, only that the "Master" shall acknowledge whom can be registered in the House Book (both Blue and Yellow).

 

A usufruct or superficies agreement is normally advisable, or a long term lease agreement, any of the contracts shall be registered at the Land Office. 

 

Your benefit of having a house registered in your name – especially before marriage, or when not married – is that there's no doubt about ownership. However, without a clear kind of habitation right, the house ownership may be worthless, if it's not a removable (wooden) house. If you paid for the house, you can have a loan declared as servitude on the title deed (presumable only Chanote deed, and Nor Sor Sarm deeds) – i.e. mortgage – where the land cannot be sold or transferred, before the loan has been fully paid back; that kind of protection is often recommended by real estate lawyers.

Edited October 9, 2017 by khunPer

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

A Chanote is not solely a document of land ownership ..... I own 2 Condos in Cha-am and I have a registered Chanote, in my name for both of them, as do many friends here, so you are clearly mistaken 

Condominium are a special  and very limited case.

The title is an Or Chor 2 it is not a Chanote.

you and your friends have legal title to the condominiums. You do not have a Chanote title.

[khunPer]

4 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Condominium are a special  and very limited case.

The title is an Or Chor 2 it is not a Chanote.

you and your friends have legal title to the condominiums. You do not have a Chanote title.

About condominium title deeds...

[Jimbob1]

I have 3 blocks of land with 2 in Korat, (one has a house I built on it and the other I use a a market garden) the 3rd is in Buriram .

 

My wife on my last trip across to Buriram was talking with her brother living across the road and he said seeing as it is a vacant block the Government want to register a house number on it so they have records of who owns what in the Provence and want me to build a small structure on it and register the house in my name ... ???  

Having her brother suggest this makes me suspicious as he is less than honest on many occasions and I always look for the 'angle' ... 

My wife says it is because she has all our possessions registered now in her name that we put this one in mine ??? Doesn't help as I still have a feeling their is something dodgy going on .... 

 

I may be totally wrong but it wouldn't be the first time I have been stung by this plick! 

[sometimewoodworker]

19 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

A Chanote is not solely a document of land ownership ..... I own 2 Condos in Cha-am and I have a registered Chanote, in my name for both of them, as do many friends here, so you are clearly mistaken 

I am not mistaken.

You and your friends have legal title to your condominiums.

You do not have Chanote titles to the condominiums.

You have Or Chor 2 titles.

Chanote is not a general term for an ownership document. It is specific to the Nor Sor 4 Jor land title.

 

A Chanote can not be registered to a non Thai owner qed you don't have Chanote titles.

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by sometimewoodworker

[BEVUP]

4 minutes ago, khunPer said:

If the house is already build, and owner is not already registered separate from the land, to my knowledge you cannot separate house ownership from land ownership; but do check with a lawyer.

 

Normally one can separate ownership from land for a new build house, where the owner – apart from a permission from the land owner – need all construction drawings, building permission, and all building construction contracts and money transfers to carry the owner's name, as that is the only initial proof of house ownership. The new build house's owner can sell the house only, and the next owner can be registered. A house owner can be registered in the House Book (Yellow for foreigners) as "Master of House", but that does not state legal ownership, only that the "Master" shall acknowledge whom can be registered in the House Book (both Blue and Yellow).

 

A usufruct or superficies agreement is normally advisable, or a long term lease agreement, any of the contracts shall be registered at the Land Office. 

 

Your benefit of having a house registered in your name – especially before marriage, or when not married – is that there's no doubt about ownership. However, without a clear kind of habitation right, the house ownership may be worthless, if it's not a removable (wooden) house. If you paid for the house, you can have a loan declared as servitude on the title deed (presumable only Chanote deed, and Nor Sor Sarm deeds – i.e. mortgage – where the land cannot be sold or transferred, before the loan has been fully paid back; that kind of protection is often recommended by real estate lawyers.

Now we're getting to the nit & gritty

& this is why you have to go all out & cover every base

I'm not saying all but the the pressure may become to great on ones' partner in the end & the old Mai Pen Rai it will be ok because it's family 

& they never stop, but some are lucky & receive the returns 

But in the end of the day I will have the last laugh as I now control the situation & will celebrate not their funeral but their passing - & the wife will be going to it alone

[BEVUP]

6 minutes ago, Jimbob1 said:

I have 3 blocks of land with 2 in Korat, (one has a house I built on it and the other I use a a market garden) the 3rd is in Buriram .

 

My wife on my last trip across to Buriram was talking with her brother living across the road and he said seeing as it is a vacant block the Government want to register a house number on it so they have records of who owns what in the Provence and want me to build a small structure on it and register the house in my name ... ???  

Having her brother suggest this makes me suspicious as he is less than honest on many occasions and I always look for the 'angle' ... 

My wife says it is because she has all our possessions registered now in her name that we put this one in mine ??? Doesn't help as I still have a feeling their is something dodgy going on .... 

 

I may be totally wrong but it wouldn't be the first time I have been stung by this plick! 

Like you said you have a market garden on one ( is it with a chanote ) so why would you need to put a structure on it

Ah maybe if there's a registered structure on it in your name it may be ok to have a Kareoke Bar in the dwelling on the property 

[GOLDBUGGY]

4 hours ago, BEVUP said:

Sorry to say but the Usufrut only gives you the right to occupy the land 

It does not give you any legal saying (needing your consent ) for the owner of such land to Sell , or Mortgage such land

I personally think what is mentioned by needing your consent is to Remove the Usufrut so there is absolutely no problem in selling the land.

But believe me there is nothing stopping the land owner mortgaging or ect for a family if the other party is willing to take it on with you still being lodged as the Usufrutee 

 

That may be so on paper, but which bank is going to give you a mortgage that when you default on your payments, they can't take this house and land back to sell and recover there money? 

 

Or who is going to buy this house and land, that they can't even move into or use in any way, for the rest of your life?

 

My Usufruct is attached to the Land Title, so it is not like a big secret that a mortgage company or buyer can't see or learn about before they buy or lend and before they transfer the deed. 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

7 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

I am not mistaken.

You and your friends have legal title to your condominiums.

You do not have Chanote titles to the condominiums.

You have Or Chor 2 titles.

Chanote is not a general term for an ownership document. It is specific to the Nor Sor 4 Jor land title

 

Yes it is an Or Chor 2 Title, which carries the freehold right to the condo, but not the land; so what is the different title that the many foreigners have that you say have legal right to ownership of a house without ownership of the land  ....... I am trying to under this complicated scenario 

[BEVUP]

4 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

That may be so on paper, but which bank is going to give you a mortgage that when you default on your payments, they can't take this house and land back to sell and recover there money? 

 

Or who is going to buy this house and land, that they can't even move into or use in any way, for the rest of your life?

 

My Usufruct is attached to the Land Title, so it is not like a big secret that a mortgage company or buyer can't see or learn about before they buy or lend and before they transfer the deed. 

AAhhh Their called loan sharks as mentioned prior

Now he's stuck with it wanted some 3mill & the latest one a while back was the discounted offer of 1.5 mill 

My thought - You took it on so wear it

[Jimbob1]

2 minutes ago, BEVUP said:

Like you said you have a market garden on one ( is it with a chanote ) so why would you need to put a structure on it

Ah maybe if there's a registered structure on it in your name it may be ok to have a Kareoke Bar in the dwelling on the property 

Have 2 blocks in Korat ... one has a house I built on it and the other has vegie gardens .... 

My wife has chanote on both and registered house on one ... 

 

It is the other block we have in Buriram that we own with wife name on chanote and no house as yet ... but we have been advised the gov wants to register blocks with house numbers and need to put a temp structure on it ( just shack and hong nam would surfice) and family are suggesting I put that in my name ??? WHY ?

[BEVUP]

2 minutes ago, Jimbob1 said:

Have 2 blocks in Korat ... one has a house I built on it and the other has vegie gardens .... 

My wife has chanote on both and registered house on one ... 

 

It is the other block we have in Buriram that we own with wife name on chanote and no house as yet ... but we have been advised the gov wants to register blocks with house numbers and need to put a temp structure on it ( just shack and hong nam would surfice) and family are suggesting I put that in my name ??? WHY ?

I might have miss worded my reply as in as you stated you have a block as a vegie garden with a chanote & no dwelling, so why would you need to put a dwelling on the Buriram block & especially in your name - maybe for a small Buisness or others to live (squat )

[Eloquent pilgrim]

5 minutes ago, Jimbob1 said:

Have 2 blocks in Korat ... one has a house I built on it and the other has vegie gardens .... 

My wife has chanote on both and registered house on one ... 

 

It is the other block we have in Buriram that we own with wife name on chanote and no house as yet ... but we have been advised the gov wants to register blocks with house numbers and need to put a temp structure on it ( just shack and hong nam would surfice) and family are suggesting I put that in my name ??? WHY ?

who advised that the Gov wants to register blocks with house numbers and who translated this advice for you ??

[Jimbob1]

1 minute ago, BEVUP said:

I might have miss worded my reply as in as you stated you have a block as a vegie garden with a chanote & no dwelling, so why would you need to put a dwelling on the Buriram block & especially in your name - maybe for a small Buisness or others to live (squat )

The house in Korat is in the village where the family all live and 12 brothers and sisters ... I have to sow my pockets shut when I am there ... 

 

My 2 rai block in Buriram is beautiful and I have fenced it and have planted out with fruit trees ( Lychee and Durian and Avocado ) and eventually wanted to put a small place on it for now so I could piss off up there and have some solitude although I have one brother in law across the road unfortunately.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Regarding the discussion of a usufruct above between a Thai wife and a farang husband, there's one problem that I've never seen clearly addressed:

 

Under Thai marriage law, ANY contract/legal agreement between a husband and a wife can be voided by either party anytime during the marriage or up to one year after the marriage has ended.

 

So, as best as I understand it, a usufruct can protect a farang spouse, in the event of the untimely death of his Thai wife, against the potential greedy claims of her relatives.

 

But, if the husband and wife themselves go on the rocks and or get divorced, AFAIK, there's nothing that prevents the angry Thai wife from simply voiding the usufruct and the farang husband would be left with nothing -- provided she does it either during the marriage or within one year thereafter.

 

In that regard, it's not necessarily any kind of long-term protection against marital strife / breakups.

 

PS - of course, if the usufruct was executed BEFORE the couple got married, then, that out would not apply, even during or after the subsequent marriage. It's only applicable to contracts executed between a husband and a wife, not two people who later get married.

 

PPS - And of course, that legal out only applies in the case of a valid, legal Thai marriage executed at an amphur/khet -- not the merely symbolic village/temple weddings that have no legal standing.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[cyberfarang]

4 hours ago, BEVUP said:

Sorry to say but the Usufrut only gives you the right to occupy the land 

It does not give you any legal saying (needing your consent ) for the owner of such land to Sell , or Mortgage such land

I personally think what is mentioned by needing your consent is to Remove the Usufrut so there is absolutely no problem in selling the land.

But believe me there is nothing stopping the land owner mortgaging or ect for a family if the other party is willing to take it on with you still being lodged as the Usufrutee 

 

I`ve heard that Usufruts in Thailand are not worth the paper they are printed on. Happened to a friend of mine, got married to a Thai woman, paid 10 million baht for land and house, he took out a Usufrut on the house, his wife unbeknown to him borrowed millions of bahts on the land and house from a loan shark, wife done done a runner with the money, bailiffs came round, claimed the land and house, he lost everything. Good luck OP, I wouldn`t risk it. 

[Jimbob1]

6 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

who advised that the Gov wants to register blocks with house numbers and who translated this advice for you ??

The brother inlaw who lives across the road in Buriram .... 

 

He said they want to register all the blocks in the area as they don't have records of who owns what ... ( I am thinking it might be for some sort of tax/rate grab?? )

[BEVUP]

3 minutes ago, Jimbob1 said:

The brother inlaw who lives across the road in Buriram .... 

 

He said they want to register all the blocks in the area as they don't have records of who owns what ... ( I am thinking it might be for some sort of tax/rate grab?? )

I was thinking the same thing but i may need to be corrected

IE : not sure but if your wife was to have a second dwelling in her name she may be liable for a 12.5 % tax for some reason & also gives a person the legal right to reside there

[Eloquent pilgrim]

2 minutes ago, Jimbob1 said:

The brother inlaw who lives across the road in Buriram .... 

 

He said they want to register all the blocks in the area as they don't have records of who owns what ... ( I am thinking it might be for some sort of tax/rate grab?? )

Well with respect, I don't know if he can be trusted or if he has his own agenda ......... personally I would want some independent verification of this sudden need for Government registration ...... 

[Jimbob1]

3 minutes ago, BEVUP said:

I was thinking the same thing but i may need to be corrected

IE : not sure but if your wife was to have a second dwelling in her name she may be liable for a 12.5 % tax for some reason & also gives a person the legal right to reside there

 

 

4 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Well with respect, I don't know if he can be trusted or if he has his own agenda ......... personally I would want some independent verification of this sudden need for Government registration ...... 

Both replies are good and could explain what is going on  but as suggested I will have to do some more homework on this one before I sign anything.

[BEVUP]

19 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Under Thai marriage law, ANY contract/legal agreement between a husband and a wife can be voided by either party anytime during the marriage or up to one year after the marriage has ended.

 

That's while married but what about before

I was at my old place (or should I say my wifes ) watching a prospective buyer look at the property ( whilst I was stripping some stuff off ) & them asking wife questions

But the result was they did not buy as there was a Usufrut on the property & it has not been sold to this date 

[LannaGuy]

34 minutes ago, cyberfarang said:

I`ve heard that Usufruts in Thailand are not worth the paper they are printed on. Happened to a friend of mine, got married to a Thai woman, paid 10 million baht for land and house, he took out a Usufrut on the house, his wife unbeknown to him borrowed millions of bahts on the land and house from a loan shark, wife done done a runner with the money, bailiffs came round, claimed the land and house, he lost everything. Good luck OP, I wouldn`t risk it. 

That's strange I must say. No loan company will loan on a  house that has an Usufruct with your name on the chanot so not sure how that happened. A loan company could not use a house as collateral when  you have the 'fruits' for your life time.

Edited October 9, 2017 by LannaGuy

[digbeth]

At least with a usufruct, if or when the land is sold on to another party, they could make an offer to you to end the usufruct and the value of the house/building, for what it's worth... which is gonna be a lot less than market value considering the complication involved.. .any buyer that see a deed with usufruct on it is a potential red flag

[jenny2017]

On 10/7/2017 at 8:19 PM, BEVUP said:

& the reason being you may own the house outright & will never own the land or have a say in it 

In the end it doesn't matter as the wife can do anything she likes with the land because that is all they are interested in IE: Mortgage, Sell ect 

Best of with a Usufrut as this shall give you occupancy for 30 yrs

& make sure their is a clause so you can lease to another party

& don't worry some loan shark will take it on, but the good thing is they can,t palm it off 

I've experienced it all

 

Sorry to hear your little story.. I truly hope that you could recover in a way that life's good.

[BEVUP]

10 minutes ago, LannaGuy said:

That's strange I must say. No loan company will loan on a  house that has an Usufruct with your name on the chanot so not sure how that happened. A loan company could not use a house as collateral when  you have the 'fruits' for your life time.

As mentioned what about loan shark 

Maybe they think ok since a farang will back his wife if the F&#@k up

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Yes it is an Or Chor 2 Title, which carries the freehold right to the condo, but not the land; so what is the different title that the many foreigners have that you say have legal right to ownership of a house without ownership of the land  ....... I am trying to under this complicated scenario 

Not complicated at all.

Standard practice in most countries.

Often known as leasehold as opposed to freehold.

Best practice is rent the land or have an Usufruct on it.

 

Owning land does not by itself prove ownership of buildings, but is only considered evidence in favor of owning the buildings. Sale agreements or construction permits provide additional evidence of building ownership.

 

FWIW I own a maisonette in the U.K. The land lease still has 925 years to run

 

If I wanted I could have ownership of the house we are building, I have an Usufruct on the land so probably will not bother to claim ownership. I have evidence of paying for all construction so it would be no problem.

[BEVUP]

8 minutes ago, digbeth said:

At least with a usufruct, if or when the land is sold on to another party, they could make an offer to you to end the usufruct and the value of the house/building, for what it's worth... which is gonna be a lot less than market value considering the complication involved.. .any buyer that see a deed with usufruct on it is a potential red flag

Yes that's why I'm laughing ( in a sense ) as the loan shark that took on my Usufrut made no offer & is now stuck with it

[4MyEgo]

1 hour ago, BEVUP said:

owns the lot

Ok, so an usufruct is a lease over the dwelling you built and paid for out of your pocket, I learn something everyday, and will still refer back to rule number 2 of my rule book, i.e. when things go pear shape, walk, because I only invested as much as I was prepared to lose, and she will need to house the 4 kids. 

[BEVUP]

11 minutes ago, jenny2017 said:

Sorry to hear your little story.. I truly hope that you could recover in a way that life's good.

Oh I have but at great expense as it's only money

Still with wife & son & can leave any time (she knows that )

As stated in prior reply I put the ball in my court & am waiting to celebrate the families demise ( that will end up with one big headache ) 

The wife can get the bus ,cab or tuk tuk to there as I wont have a bar of it

[BEVUP]

5 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

Ok, so an usufruct is a lease over the dwelling you built and paid for out of your pocket, I learn something everyday, and will still refer back to rule number 2 of my rule book, i.e. when things go pear shape, walk, because I only invested as much as I was prepared to lose, and she will need to house the 4 kids. 

No over the land which she bought from uncle & then we built a house on it with a granny flat ( 32 columns ) 

All in wifes name

Edited October 9, 2017 by BEVUP