SURVEY: Should Thailand expand its Social Security System?

[Scott]

There was a recent thread about the ageing population in Thailand.    The thread points out the shortages in the social safety net in Thailand.   In your opinion, do you believe that the government should expand its program to meet the needs of all elderly people in Thailand?

 

Please feel free to leave a comment.

 

For further reference, see this thread:  

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1005655-thailand-is-ageing-and-money-is-short/

[farang62]

yes and make the enrollment mandatory and make them pay in each month.

The system works because people pay into the system. Here most companies don't pay in to the system, nor do the employees so not covered by retirement or health care.

 

The workers need to be educated and the companies fined . Enforce the law everyone is required to pay!

 

[farang62]

The ill thought out 30 baht plan has bankrupted the health system. (reminds me of the rice scheme in a way).

Many problem detailed on this forum but as usual no action taken.

 

[JAG]

19 minutes ago, farang62 said:

The ill thought out 30 baht plan has bankrupted the health system. (reminds me of the rice scheme in a way).

Many problem detailed on this forum but as usual no action taken.

 

Maybe the "I'll thought out 30 Baht plan" has forced governments to take responsibility for providing a basic level of universal health care for their people?

Mind you, it is a bloody nuisance, reduces cash available for submarines, tanks and other essentials....

[baboon]

13 minutes ago, JAG said:

Maybe the "I'll thought out 30 Baht plan" has forced governments to take responsibility for providing a basic level of universal health care for their people?

Mind you, it is a bloody nuisance, reduces cash available for submarines, tanks and other essentials....

Indeed. If you have the money to pay for the weapons of a war you will never fight, you have the money to take care of the vulnerable. Not as sexy I know, but it would serve the country better.

[Credo]

Without specific provisions set aside by the gov't, I think they will have trouble paying an increasingly aging population and a decreasing work force.   

 

It's important for gov't to assist in making sure that the elderly are taken care of.   In Thailand many of the elderly had very small earnings during their working years.   

[al007]

13 hours ago, Scott said:

 

There was a recent thread about the ageing population in Thailand.    The thread points out the shortages in the social safety net in Thailand.   In your opinion, do you believe that the government should expand its program to meet the needs of all elderly people in Thailand?

 

Please feel free to leave a comment.

 

 

In response to the invitation above, I comment as follows

 

What right do we have to stir the pot, most of us expats here are on short term license only, I have abstained from voting as I consider it not my business

 

We surely need to instead of starting surveys and creating doubts over the existing system look at what we personally contribute to the country; we choose to live in, my wife and I contribute a very minimum of 40,000bhatt a month to the local economy every month

 

We also need before increasing benefits look at how these are going to be paid for

 

Look at the economies of both the UK and the USA, both very over extended, primarily because of benefit systems that are unsustainable, by comparison Thailand does exceedingly well, and we should leave alone and not upset

 

I used to take my British registered Yacht to Cuba, many many times, not so dissimilar to Thailand, and Americans also arrived on their yachts, (despite it being illegal) on arrival most Non Americans oiled the wheels with a few one dollar bills, the Americans threw 100 dollar bills around like it was going out of fashion, and created problems for everyone

 

This created unreal expectations for the locals, and around Hemingway Marina for a while sent prices rocketing

 

 

On a similar topic in a country where tipping is the exception is it also going to be suggested we go to the extremes of some nations, I hope not, tipping is and should be for something exceptional, not to make up for employers who do not properly pay their staff

 

Lets leave Thailand to the Thais and their forthcoming democratically to be new government, they overall do very well

 

And as a PS even the great USA can not sort out its healthcare system, the UK does have an all inclusive one, but the richer should pay more when they use it, the burden on the tax payer is unreal

 

 

I have to add one more point, the USA, UK, Australia, Canada, Germany all have business models that create bigger deficits each year, and WE suggest to Thailand they need to follow us, try the Chinese business model

 

Madness

[Samui Bodoh]

While I would like to see Thailand (and every other country for that matter) provide all of its citizens assistance when they are old, I have to say that for Thailand at the moment it isn't feasible, however much desirable. That said, I hope it becomes a serious aspirational goal, and one that is achieved sooner rather than later.

 

I would go with the middle option, again with an aim to upgrading as soon as possible.

 

To provide universal pensions, everyone must pay in to the system. That is a problem when your income is 300 Baht a day, as it is for many Thais. Yes, overall, Thailand might be able to afford the program based on existing tax revenues, but the actual cost would be borne by very, very few people. Don't get me wrong; I would be happy to have the rich pay for it! But, unless there is a shared sense of commitment to the program, it rarely works and simply becomes a hand-out. And potentially a hand out that is subject to misuse or abuse.

 

I would also be worried about the people managing that money. Let's face it, Thais in government have a habit of misusing funds. Why would a whole new pot of money be any different?

 

A strong social welfare state is generally a good thing in my book, but it also needs to be both affordable and viable. I see very little in the current political leadership, nor future political leadership (that I see), that gives me confidence that this would be well done.

 

 

Love the idea, though!

 

 

[mania]

I wonder if in some Bizzaro World counterpart Forum

a bunch of Thai people are sitting around having surveys about changing

things that are basically not theirs to decide in the UK or the USA?

 

Bizarre

[simtemple]

Get a grip on reality. This is a general interest survey, not a submission to the Thai Treasury.

Aside from this, it should be noted that all expats pay value added taxes on all retail purchases.

 Most societies are judged on how they treat their weakest members. If everyone thought like you, French style revolutions, accompanied by justly deserved bloodbaths, would be a regular social occurance. All civilized nation states have welfarism, whatever the cost.

Welfarism through the redistrubution of wealth, has never been for altruistic purposes. It is applied so that the poor will not be tempted to confront the wealthy ruling class. (red shirts vs yellow shirts) 

In the absence of a fair and equitable social justice system, the primary function of the Thai Military is to protect ruling class wealth & privelege, and to subdue by by force, if necessary, the aspirations of impoverished masses. It is not there to guarantee and preserve the sovereign integrity of Thailand's National boarders. 

 

 

[khunPer]

The way the Social Security System works now – as I understand it – is a level of protection for those working and paying into the system as kind of insurance, and a small limited period retirement pension, which one can hardly live from; believe I read some years back that the maximum is 3,000 baht a month during 10-years. If that system is expanded to cover a majority of non-contributors, the lack of funds will make it almost worthless for everybody.

 

A nationvide mandatory retirement fund only system – also covering the minority unable to support the system, for various reasons – need to be established; preferably as a life-long retirement pension pay-out (annuity), based on the dividends and interests of the fund's assets. The longer time, the more people pay in, the bigger fortune in the fund, and thereby the better outcome for the retires. Similar set-ups have been done elsewhere in the World with success. A fund like that can over time support some very basic needs – which may help a lot for low income groups – whilst individual retirement savings plans are needed for a better, or decent, lifestyle.

 

Actually, it's not that much money needed from each individual to make a system like that working, if it's mandatory from a young age. Even a few hundred bath a month from each individual can make a change – the existing SS covers a lot more than retirement; i.e. health, and unemployment, and childbirth leave and support, etc. etc.; so only a minor part is actually paid into the retirement account – it could be a fixed money fee, or a more socialistic solidarity percentage, where everybody at the end get the same fixed monthly amount in retirement pension.

 

The longer the system live, the higher the monthly retirement pension payouts will be, so it may even be attractive for voluntary extra payments, if that can give extra points when pension is paid out, which again will leave more capital in the fund for the future, as only dividends and interest are paid back, not the actual savings.

 

I did not vote, as I was missing this kind of option.

 

 

[jvs]

43 minutes ago, khunPer said:

The way the Social Security System works now – as I understand it – is a level of protection for those working and paying into the system as kind of insurance, and a small limited period retirement pension, which one can hardly live from; believe I read some years back that the maximum is 3,000 baht a month during 10-years. If that system is expanded to cover a majority of non-contributors, the lack of funds will make it almost worthless for everybody.

 

A nationvide mandatory retirement fund only system – also covering the minority unable to support the system, for various reasons – need to be established; preferably as a life-long retirement pension pay-out (annuity), based on the dividends and interests of the fund's assets. The longer time, the more people pay in, the bigger fortune in the fund, and thereby the better outcome for the retires. Similar set-ups have been done elsewhere in the World with success. A fund like that can over time support some very basic needs – which may help a lot for low income groups – whilst individual retirement savings plans are needed for a better, or decent, lifestyle.

 

Actually, it's not that much money needed from each individual to make a system like that working, if it's mandatory from a young age. Even a few hundred bath a month from each individual can make a change – the existing SS covers a lot more than retirement; i.e. health, and unemployment, and childbirth leave and support, etc. etc.; so only a minor part is actually paid into the retirement account – it could be a fixed money fee, or a more socialistic solidarity percentage, where everybody at the end get the same fixed monthly amount in retirement pension.

 

The longer the system live, the higher the monthly retirement pension payouts will be, so it may even be attractive for voluntary extra payments, if that can give extra points when pension is paid out, which again will leave more capital in the fund for the future, as only dividends and interest are paid back, not the actual savings.

 

I did not vote, as I was missing this kind of option.

 

 

I can agree with most of that but you must realize that poor people never pay any tax at all.Hard to make those people pay into any fund.

If you look at the amount of homeless people living in Thailand as compared to the US than Thailand is not doing bad at all.

Having children has always been of importance here because they will provide for you when you get old.I have seen a lot of Thai people living in poverty but nobody is really hungry.Then again i see some of them live in shacks but they do have tv,smartphone and a new pick-up in the yard.

[anon789561]

3 hours ago, mania said:

I wonder if in some Bizzaro World counterpart Forum

a bunch of Thai people are sitting around having surveys about changing

things that are basically not theirs to decide in the UK or the USA?

 

Bizarre

you have lived amongst thais when abroad? they moan and do exactly that. it's human nature not about nationality

[serpent32]

Actually I never thought of this before but at what age do Thai citizens start drawing Social Security here?  

 

My wife is probably at least getting close to that age.  We live here on my pension from the States I'm retired but a little extra money would be nice.  

[observer90210]

Thailand would obviously require to make a through global case study within the nations that have good, honest and efficient social security retirement plans.

 

The european nordic countries or Switzerland would be good places to start such dilligence. The scheme could be adapted and modified to fit into Thai societal dynamics.

 

And to get closer to topic, definately...definately the elderly deserve some extra financial consideration in any society.

 

The government alone would perhaps not be able to fully support the financial requirements of such a scheme.

 

But is Thai society ready to have those earning a salary,  contribute for the aged or for those not earning ? 

 

Will Thai society faithfully use the funds collected for the cause and be fully alert that the money does not get "derouted" elsewhere, in the process ?

[MyFriend You]

On 10/8/2017 at 11:15 AM, baboon said:

Indeed. If you have the money to pay for the weapons of a war you will never fight, you have the money to take care of the vulnerable. Not as sexy I know, but it would serve the country better.

Isn't that on the same playing field as "buying votes" to elect someone.  Promising to take care of them in their old age???  Where is the garauntee??   The only social system that works is one where people and their employers pay into it throughout their lives.........with support given to the minority that have never worked at all.

[baboon]

3 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

Isn't that on the same playing field as "buying votes" to elect someone.  Promising to take care of them in their old age???  Where is the garauntee??   The only social system that works is one where people and their employers pay into it throughout their lives.........with support given to the minority that have never worked at all.

And what's wrong with that? What do you need a government or a state for if people are just to be left to fend for themselves? 

[MyFriend You]

On 10/8/2017 at 12:18 PM, al007 said:

In response to the invitation above, I comment as follows

 

What right do we have to stir the pot, most of us expats here are on short term license only, I have abstained from voting as I consider it not my business

 

We surely need to instead of starting surveys and creating doubts over the existing system look at what we personally contribute to the country; we choose to live in, my wife and I contribute a very minimum of 40,000bhatt a month to the local economy every month

 

We also need before increasing benefits look at how these are going to be paid for

 

Look at the economies of both the UK and the USA, both very over extended, primarily because of benefit systems that are unsustainable, by comparison Thailand does exceedingly well, and we should leave alone and not upset

 

I used to take my British registered Yacht to Cuba, many many times, not so dissimilar to Thailand, and Americans also arrived on their yachts, (despite it being illegal) on arrival most Non Americans oiled the wheels with a few one dollar bills, the Americans threw 100 dollar bills around like it was going out of fashion, and created problems for everyone

 

This created unreal expectations for the locals, and around Hemingway Marina for a while sent prices rocketing

 

 

On a similar topic in a country where tipping is the exception is it also going to be suggested we go to the extremes of some nations, I hope not, tipping is and should be for something exceptional, not to make up for employers who do not properly pay their staff

 

Lets leave Thailand to the Thais and their forthcoming democratically to be new government, they overall do very well

 

And as a PS even the great USA can not sort out its healthcare system, the UK does have an all inclusive one, but the richer should pay more when they use it, the burden on the tax payer is unreal

 

 

I have to add one more point, the USA, UK, Australia, Canada, Germany all have business models that create bigger deficits each year, and WE suggest to Thailand they need to follow us, try the Chinese business model

 

Madness

Those Damned Americans throwing money around like it was water are the source of all the world's problems aren't we??  But what's that got to do with expanding Thailand's Social Security System??   EF All in my opinion, but since you threw it out there.............and while you are living on your Yacht, throwing pennies to the population, I'll continue to spend my $100 dollar bills any way I choose.

[MyFriend You]

Just now, baboon said:

And what's wrong with that? What do you need a government or a state for if people are just to be left to fend for themselves? 

I suppose my gist was "Talk is Cheap"  where are the garauntees they will be taken care of??.  I believe one article showed less than 10% of the businesses in Thailand contribute to the Social Security System, and nothing is being done about it.  The Money has to come from somewhere.

[baboon]

11 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

I suppose my gist was "Talk is Cheap"  where are the garauntees they will be taken care of??.  I believe one article showed less than 10% of the businesses in Thailand contribute to the Social Security System, and nothing is being done about it.  The Money has to come from somewhere.

Aye, that is certainly an issue in that everybody wants the 'freebies' but nobody wants to pay in for them.

[al007]

1 hour ago, TunnelRat69 said:

Those Damned Americans throwing money around like it was water are the source of all the world's problems aren't we??  But what's that got to do with expanding Thailand's Social Security System??   EF All in my opinion, but since you threw it out there.............and while you are living on your Yacht, throwing pennies to the population, I'll continue to spend my $100 dollar bills any way I choose.

Would I guess correctly at suggesting your money is inherited not made

 

I have many American friends and have spent many happy years living there

 

The point of my example was how outsiders can without thinking screw up other countries, we should not impose on them what "WE" think is correct on other countries

 

In Issan most of the population manage very well, and I believe us expats should leave well alone, and if its not broke then again leave alone

 

And incidentally anyone throwing around $100 bills at poor people who are unaccustomed to money is I believe behaving irresponsibly, as Donald Trump would say throw the money at Americans not third world, look after America first