U.S. VP Pence leaves NFL game after players kneel during anthem

[binjalin]

My tuppence worth is stop playing the anthem at games and take away the opportunity. I am fully of the view that it is not the right of paid employees to use their place of work to make political statements. Outside of work that right should, and must be, defended.

[Publicus]

1 hour ago, amvet said:

I'Il repeat it.  Kaepernick said, " am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game"

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-why-he-sat-during-national-anthem

 

You wrote, " Protesting demonstrators never said they "don't like the USA."

Since he did say in so many words that he didn't like the USA don't you think you owe us all an apology? 

 

 

No I haven't stopped beating my wife. A loaded question is an illegitimate question that gets dismissed immediately. The rightwing meanwhile has not stopped reading anti-Americanism into the Constitutionally motivated protesters and their Constitutional demonstrations. 

 

Pence and Trump need to get down on their knee before the Constitution which is superior to the anthem and the flag together. Very many of the military veterans need also to learn to respect civilian citizens in their daily life, to include of course NFL. This would mean the overbearing veterans of the military recognize the UCMJ does not apply to civilians no matter how much and how hard youse try to bring it about. Youse need to recognize and accept civilians run the country while the armed forces are employed by us to defend it. 

 

This thread too is starting to go far afield as the superpatriots begin to scramble all the more. The topic has backfired as Pence is taking serious heat for spending a lot of other people's money to fly from Nevada to Indiana and to San Diego all in one big swing. In San Diego was the rah rah fundraiser. The way I figure the Pence fundraiser, they did the pledge of allegiance, played and sang the national anthem then the money basket got passed around. 

[andersonat]

2 minutes ago, binjalin said:

My tuppence worth is stop playing the anthem at games and take away the opportunity. I am fully of the view that it is not the right of paid employees to use their place of work to make political statements. Outside of work that right should, and must be, defended.

 

Sorry B, but you will have to think a little bit harder about your Amendment to the First Amendment, which says nothing about the where-and-when of political protests.

 

 - And what about the (professional) activities of Political-Journalists and Commentators in the media, College-Lecturers lecturing on Politics, etc ?

 

*

 

And I agree with you about the playing of the National Anthem at NFL games - prior to 2009,  it wasn't even standard practice in the NFL for the players to be on the field for the Anthem. 

 

[Jingthing]

25 minutes ago, amvet said:

I'm in 100% agreement with you and glad the guy who started it all is out of a job this season maybe the other players and owners will get the hint.

No you're not in agreement. 

[riclag]

8 hours ago, mike324 said:

NFL players have said it again and again, their protest is to show the inequality among treatments of blacks by the police, it has nothing to do with disrespecting VETS. Its plain and simple, how hard is it to understand.

 

Those that keep on saying NFL ratings are down, you guys just follow withever Trump says right without any fact checking? NFL ratings were not down until Trump told folks to boycott it.

 

Trump and their supporters are destroying American themselves instead of focusing on the bigger problems regarding such as healthcare and education.

 Google are the nfl ratings down. You should see a sufficient number of links that support this.I don't think people who support the current Administration are destroying America in fact it's the opposite .

[ChouDoufu]

7 minutes ago, andersonat said:

 

Sorry B, but you will have to think a little bit harder about your Amendment to the First Amendment, which says nothing about the where-and-when of political protests.

 

does that mean i have a first amendment right to

wear a nazi uniform while working for dunkin donuts?

or scream conspiracy theories at all the customers?

 

[amvet]

6 minutes ago, Publicus said:

 

No I haven't stopped beating my wife. A loaded question is an illegitimate question that gets dismissed immediately. The rightwing meanwhile has not stopped reading anti-Americanism into the Constitutionally motivated protesters and their Constitutional demonstrations. 

 

Pence and Trump need to get down on their knee before the Constitution which is superior to the anthem and the flag together. Very many of the military veterans need also to learn to respect civilian citizens in their daily life, to include of course NFL. This would mean the overbearing veterans of the military recognize the UCMJ does not apply to civilians no matter how much and how hard youse try to bring it about. Youse need to recognize and accept civilians run the country while the armed forces are employed by us to defend it. 

 

This thread too is starting to go far afield as the superpatriots begin to scramble all the more. The topic has backfired as Pence is taking serious heat for spending a lot of other people's money to fly from Nevada to Indiana and to San Diego all in one big swing. In San Diego was the rah rah fundraiser. The way I figure the Pence fundraiser, they did the pledge of allegiance, played and sang the national anthem then the money basket got passed around. 

Nothing wrong with not liking America but that's what the football players are saying and you might as well admit it.  We fought a war over issues that many in the country didn't like and it has always been legal to protest. 

 

Am I a super patriot because I don't think the black panther salute is appropriate for the National Anthem? I don't think so.  But, of course I would fight for their right to sit or give the black panther salute to the National Anthem if that is what they wanted to do. 

[jerojero]

Excellent move on VPN Pence's part. No support for those who disrespect the flag or the Police. 

Was told by Trump to do this. Complied because Pence trying to get back in The Moron's good graces. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Sent from my LG-H812 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[riclag]

4 hours ago, amvet said:

Trump clever?  I believe his Secretary of State, Tillerson called him a moron last week.  

No, the only  mention of that petty moran comment was from the media

[andersonat]

11 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

does that mean i have a first amendment right to

wear a nazi uniform while working for dunkin donuts?

or scream conspiracy theories at all the customers?

 

 

 

 - Do you have a problem with people who are *respectfully* and *quietly* kneeling during the playing of the Anthem ?

 

The NFL Players who are protesting are *not* involving themselves in frivolous behaviour during the playing of the Anthem, so please don't make silly analogies.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by andersonat

[Publicus]

1 minute ago, amvet said:

Nothing wrong with not liking America but that's what the football players are saying and you might as well admit it.  We fought a war over issues that many in the country didn't like and it has always been legal to protest. 

 

Am I a super patriot because I don't think the black panther salute is appropriate for the National Anthem? I don't think so.  But, of course I would fight for their right to sit or give the black panther salute to the National Anthem if that is what they wanted to do. 

 

I do of course reject others trying to put words in my mouth. And I reject others wanting me to admit to the words others tried to put in my mouth. The thread is indeed continuing to slip and slide downhill. 

 

Pence in Indianapolis was a farce so it should not be a surprise that trying to defend his stunt takes us to the same. Pence traveled from Las Vegas to Indianapolis to San Diego in one big swing. San Diego was the fundraiser, not for the trip but for Pence Himself. 

[ChouDoufu]

2 minutes ago, andersonat said:

 ..so please do *not* make silly analogies.

 

a wise man once said " but you will have to think a little bit harder about your Amendment to the First Amendment "

 

sorry. you don't get to choose which bits of speech are allowed.

 

not a silly analogy at all.  you may find it frivolous, others may

find it offensive.  but then that's the point.  no need for freedom

of speech for rainbows and puppies.

 

regardless, this is in no way a free speech issue.  first

amendmend does NOT cover employees at work.

 

[Jingthing]

It wasn't just the 200,000 dollars Pence wasted on this cynical stunt.

Consider what it cost the city of Indianapolis to host a VP.

Millions? 

He knew there was going to be kneeling, and he knew he was wasting all that money just to NOT attend the game. Disgusting sleazeball move just like his clown potus boss. 

[amvet]

3 minutes ago, Publicus said:

 

I do of course reject others trying to put words in my mouth. And I reject others wanting me to admit to the words others tried to put in my mouth. The thread is indeed continuing to slip and slide downhill. 

 

Pence in Indianapolis was a farce so it should not be a surprise that trying to defend his stunt takes us to the same. Pence traveled from Las Vegas to Indianapolis to San Diego in one big swing. San Diego was the fundraiser, not for the trip but for Pence Himself. 

You wrote, " Protesting demonstrators never said they "don't like the USA."

Kaepernick used words to that effect when he said he had no pride in America and would not stand for the Anthem.  That's all I said.

 

[Jingthing]

Go Niners!

 

[riclag]

3 hours ago, connda said:

Just stop playing the National Anthem and the problem's solved. 

Why would you suggest that?That is part of America's tradition.The people who aren't American's must surely know that this Anthem is a symbol of American's patriotism.Critics back in the day mocked and ridiculed people for  not paying homage to the Anthem ,only to find it being supported with even more vigor.

 

"The anthem’s adoption also gave way to a new American pastime, almost as beloved as sports itself: complaining about people’s behavior during the national anthem. By 1954, Baltimore Orioles general manager Arthur Ehlers was already bemoaning fans he thought disrespected the anthem by talking and laughing during the song. Ehlers briefly stopped playing the anthem altogether, before relenting to pressure and reinstating it a month later".

The excerpt is from a story  about "Why the Star-Spangled Banner is Played At Sporting Events"

 

http://www.history.com/news/why-the-star-spangled-banner-is-played-at-sporting-events

[andersonat]

8 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

a wise man once said " but you will have to think a little bit harder about your Amendment to the First Amendment "

 

sorry. you don't get to choose which bits of speech are allowed.

 

not a silly analogy at all.  you may find it frivolous, others may

find it offensive.  but then that's the point.  no need for freedom

of speech for rainbows and puppies.

 

regardless, this is in no way a free speech issue.  first

amendmend does NOT cover employees at work.

 

 

 

From a US Lawyer: "I spend a substantial amount of my practice on employment law issues, including workplace training on sexual harassment, discrimination and workplace violence. One question that frequently comes up during the training sessions is whether employees have freedom of speech in the workplace." ... "Even though the First Amendment free speech criteria do not apply to private employers, (one must first) determine if there is some other interest that governs the employee’s ability to speak freely. The following are some examples:

 

• Is this employee’s speech being restricted or punished because the employee is expressing religious or other beliefs that are different from the employer’s or from co-workers ?" ..... etc.

 

 - The First Amendment (and The Supreme Court) really isn't clear cut on this subject.

 

 

[Publicus]

38 minutes ago, amvet said:

You wrote, " Protesting demonstrators never said they "don't like the USA."

Kaepernick used words to that effect when he said he had no pride in America and would not stand for the Anthem.  That's all I said.

 

 

I was replying to another poster when you interposed to include wanting an apology for nothing substantiated and which you did not get. 

 

I myself see the protests and demonstrations as being against the National Police Homicide Crime Wave Against Unarmed Black Americans.

 

In the country we all love. 

[Skywalker69]

17 hours ago, Boon Mee said:

Excellent move on VPN Pence's part. No support for those who disrespect the flag or the Police. 

Trump Throws Pence Under The Bus. Tweet Proves NFL Walkout Was A Planned Publicity Stunt

 

http://politicaldig.com/trump-throws-pence-under-the-bus-tweet-proves-nfl-walkout-was-a-planned-publicity-stunt/

 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 hours ago, riclag said:

Disrespecting the flag and the Anthem because of social injustice is misguided.

IMHO, kneeling silently during the national anthem is neither disrespecting the flag or the anthem. And the players themselves have specifically said that is not their purpose or intention.

 

But it is and has clearly been stated by the participating players as a public protest over police abuses in the minority communities, and the government's failure, especially during the Trump administration, to do even the slightest thing to address those issues.

 

Instead, the Justice Department under Trump has been reversing Obama Administration policies and efforts aimed at beginning to address those issues, which have been occurring for many years.

 

If you want to talk about misguided, it's the current Administration's abject failure to ensure equal civil rights for ALL Americans that should be making Americans angry, not false flag issues over the flag and a song. The former are real issues of life and death for Americans. The latter is a false and misguided sense of patriotism that ignores what true patriotism is about.

 

[Krungbin]

20 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The right to free speech and protest is arguably the basis for the entire American experiment. Yet, there are people who argue that if you exercise those rights, you are damaging the country.

 

Black is white. Up is down. Wet is dry.

 

What has happened to the USA? 

 

It is a terrible thing to watch a country voluntarily set itself on a path of decline.

 

I agree

[Krungbin]

20 hours ago, ezzra said:

The day that these "racial minorities" mainly blacks, will start respect the

law and order of the land they kneeling on and not make the police the 

targets of their hate and loathing, this act will start to have meaning...

I agree too

[Kim1950]

11 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

But it is and has clearly been stated by the participating players as a public protest over police abuses in the minority communities, and the government's failure, especially during the Trump administration, to do even the slightest thing to address those issues.

 

Instead, the Justice Department under Trump has been reversing Obama Administration policies and efforts aimed at beginning to address those issues, which have been occurring for many years.

What abuses in the minority community since the Trump Administration, like the same one's under the Obama administration. What Obama policies have been reversed by the DOJ under Trump except placing DACA on hold that was unconstitutional in the first place. We get it, you don't like Trump. He's not a likeable person. But, you are not stating any facts. 

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

20 hours ago, ezzra said:

The day that these "racial minorities" mainly blacks, will start respect the

law and order of the land they kneeling on and not make the police the 

targets of their hate and loathing, this act will start to have meaning...

Been drinking a bit early today, huh?

 

When you say these racial minorities, if you mean the NFL players, they're not doing anything against the law and order of their land. And they're certainly not showing any hate or loathing. In fact, they're actually just calling for the laws of their land to be enforced and applied equally and without prejudice. Innocent citizens regardless of color protected. Police who break the law prosecuted.

 

If you mean blacks or minorities at large, perhaps you'd feel a bit different about respecting law and order if you were an entirely innocent citizen wrongly shot or tased or beaten by police officers who are never held accountable for the crime, or routinely pulled over and stopped/searched by police merely because you're a minority member.

 

If an innocent citizen is shot or beaten or tased by police officers, just who is dis-respecting law and order?

 

[Kim1950]

3 hours ago, Publicus said:

National Police Homicide Crime Wave Against Unarmed Black Americans.

What's that the NPHCWAUBA? You make that up. You would think there is a Secret Police Society. A 'Crime Wave' over the top. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Kim1950

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

16 minutes ago, Kim1950 said:

What abuses in the minority community since the Trump Administration, like the same one's under the Obama administration. What Obama policies have been reversed by the DOJ under Trump except placing DACA on hold that was unconstitutional in the first place. We get it, you don't like Trump. He's not a likeable person. But, you are not stating any facts.

It has nothing to do with my feelings about Trump or DACA, which is an entirely separate and really unrelated issue to the issues that the NFL players are protesting over, which are police abuses and lack of civil rights in minority communities.

 

It has everything to do with the policies his Justice Department is pursuing. Under the Obama Administration, the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division tried to play an active role in intervening in cities where police departments were being accused of civil rights abuses. Under the current Justice Department headed by AG Sessions, they've basically walked away from trying to enforce federal civil rights laws against police departments and officers.

 

You want facts? Here are facts:

 

April 2017:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/04/03/522309537/justice-department-to-review-all-civil-rights-agreements-on-police-conduct

 

Quote

 

The leader of the U.S. Justice Department has ordered federal authorities to emphasize building partnerships with local law enforcement over hard-nosed investigations of them, asking a federal judge in Baltimore to delay a hearing this week on a deal to overhaul the city's troubled police force and casting a cloud over a host of other federal consent decrees that target unconstitutional law enforcement practices.
 

The new directive by Attorney General Jeff Sessions and the bid to reconsider an agreement in Baltimore are the strongest signs yet that the Trump administration not only plans to scale back the number of new investigations it launches into unconstitutional policing, excessive force and other law enforcement misconduct allegations but also the likelihood it will seek to reopen agreements the Obama civil rights unit had already negotiated.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2017/02/28/jeff-sessions-dismisses-doj-reports-on-police-abuse-without-bothering-to-read-them/?utm_term=.84e0efa2c6e0

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/obama-justice-department-civil-rights-division_us_586eb67ae4b099cdb0fc4e24

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Jingthing]

13 minutes ago, Kim1950 said:

What abuses in the minority community since the Trump Administration, like the same one's under the Obama administration. What Obama policies have been reversed by the DOJ under Trump except placing DACA on hold that was unconstitutional in the first place. We get it, you don't like Trump. He's not a likeable person. But, you are not stating any facts. 

 

 

Here you go, dude --

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/28/us/politics/jeff-sessions-crime.html

 

Quote

 

Sessions Indicates Justice Department Will Stop Monitoring Troubled Police Agencies

 

 

[Kim1950]

7 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

NFL players, they're not doing anything against the law and order of their land. And they

You are right they are not breaking the law and they have a right to protest at a NFL game at the will of their team owner or league. It's simple. What's hard to understand. You own a business, guess not, if an employee were making my customers unhappy and I was losing  business, the employee would have to go. 

 

And the noble and principled NFL will stop the protests when they start losing enough viewers and money, not because they are patriotic. Just like ESPN just suspended Jemele Hill.

[Credo]

10 minutes ago, Kim1950 said:

You are right they are not breaking the law and they have a right to protest at a NFL game at the will of their team owner or league. It's simple. What's hard to understand. You own a business, guess not, if an employee were making my customers unhappy and I was losing  business, the employee would have to go. 

 

And the noble and principled NFL will stop the protests when they start losing enough viewers and money, not because they are patriotic. Just like ESPN just suspended Jemele Hill.

The NFL players are not employees, per se.   They have a contract.   Firing them is not all that easy.   

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

25 minutes ago, Kim1950 said:

But, you are not stating any facts.

You know, speaking of facts, you'd probably be able to make a much more persuasive argument for whatever your views are on this subject if you actually had any awareness of the FACTS that have been going on on the topic.

 

Whether anyone agrees with them or not, the Trump Administration has been pretty clear and public about its willingness to pretty much let police do whatever they want to do, without risking any intervention or oversight from the current Justice Department. You'd kind of have to be politically deaf and dumb to not have the slightest clue of their policies on the subject.

 

But then again, fans of the current administration have never let facts get in the way of their opinions or policy positions.