It's 'farang' Not 'falang'!

[gburns57au]

Simon, you are not correct. You introduced Isaan to the discussion and so you must recognise that Isaan is not the same language as Central Thai. Isaan is very similar to Laos. In written Laos, the "r" was thrown in the dustbin a long time ago. So words like borisat in written Thai become bolisat in written Laos.

So when foreigners transliterate ฝรั่ง into falang, they are transliterating Isaan and not central Thai. I am right because I know.

Oh dear ...here we go again...

Isaan is an area not a language...within the Isaan area there are many dialects...There is no Isaan language per se. The two main languages spoken in the Isaan area are Laos and Khmer...however there are many dialects spoken.

BTW...Issan, Isaan, Isarn Esarn and Esan are all the same place.

While you are right the Isaan dialect continuum has some individual variations, almost all the local dialects spoken in Isaan have one thing in common, the absence of an /r/ phoneme, since they are linguistically part of the Lao dialect continuum rather than the Thai one. To reflect the linguistic situation and not the political one, the border separating Thailand from Laos would more correctly have been drawn somewhere in Khorat province, and the Khmer border would have been moved some ways up into Surin as well.

The Khmer minority in Isaan is the only group who pronounce clear rolling 'r's, and they are a rather small fraction of the total population in Isaan. The other groups which comprise the majority, do not have any /r/ sound in their dialect. I recommend Smalley's 'Linguistic Diversity and National Unity' for the most complete description of dialects and minority languages in Thailand. It really is worth the money and would clear up any misunderstandings.

As for the debate about pronunciation of ก ค ข I do not think we will not get anywhere trying to represent them according to how we perceive them unless we try a different approach.

So for anyone who is interested in phonetics - in a Thai context, all these three letters are pronounced exactly the same when they occur at the end of a word - and this pronunciation is written as 'g' in some transcription systems (Haas for example) and as 'k' in others (AUA i.e. Marwin Brown's for example). Transcription systems primarily for English speakers can have either (the worst ones use both!).

The actual sound of these three letters when in syllable final position is neither a /g/ (because unlike /g/ it has no vocal chord vibration) not a 'k' (because it has no puff of air after it). What happens is, your tongue stops where you would start to make either a /g/ or a /k/ - there is no real equivalent of this in English. Listen to the last (almost inaudible sound) a Thai makes when pronouncing 'frog' and 'frock' in English. If they have not had a lot of exposure to foreigners these words will sound exactly the same, an the final "g" / "ck" will be an 'absence of a sound' - because the tongue stops dead at the palate.

In initial position, ค and ข are pronounced the same in Central Thai. There are two letters for the same sound because this is necessary for correctly representing the tones when using Thai letters. ค is a so called 'low consonant' and ข is a so called 'high consonant'. The sound of them is similar enough to an initial /k/ that it makes some sense to write it like that - the major difference from a /k/ is that in Thai, the puff of air at the end of the sound is more pronounced.

As for ก, the first letter of the Thai alphabet, it has the same sound as a /k/ in for example the word 'sky', but NOT the same as in 'karma' (when karma is pronounced in English). The difference is the absence of a puff of air.

ก is close to initial /g/ as in 'guy', but not entirely the same. The difference is that 'g' in 'guy' is softer, less pressure is applied than with ก in Thai ไก่ .

The IPA based systems write ก as k and ค ข as kh. The 'h' here is to remind of the puff of air, and 'k' is used instead of 'g' to make sure there is no vocal chord tone.

Systems designed for primarily for speakers of English usually choose 'k' for ค ข and 'g' for ก so people will not have to rethink their letter-to-sound correspondence, which can be confusing if you have not learned a foreign sound system before.

Have highlighted what I think are some important points that you made which support what I was saying...I just dont have your eloquence Meadish

Edited January 10, 2007 by gburns57au

[solid]

Simon, I have lived in the South for 18 years. Believe me, they pronounce the "r"

sbk...We have Italians here that have lived here for 30 years and still cant speak English.....your point is ???

Hi you guys, lovely farangs,

It's pronounced 'r'. I am Thai, was born and raised here in LOS.

So, the correct version is farang. But falang is understandable although it does not really sound educated.

[Neeranam]

So, the correct version is farang. But falang is understandable although it does not really sound educated.

Not if you're a Thai who speaks regional Isarn and some of them are educated.

[solid]

Simon, you are not correct. You introduced Isaan to the discussion and so you must recognise that Isaan is not the same language as Central Thai. Isaan is very similar to Laos. In written Laos, the "r" was thrown in the dustbin a long time ago. So words like borisat in written Thai become bolisat in written Laos.

So when foreigners transliterate ฝรั่ง into falang, they are transliterating Isaan and not central Thai. I am right because I know.

Oh dear ...here we go again...

Isaan is an area not a language...within the Isaan area there are many dialects...There is no Isaan language per se. The two main languages spoken in the Isaan area are Laos and Khmer...however there are many dialects spoken.

BTW...Issan, Isaan, Isarn Esarn and Esan are all the same place.

Respectfully disagree, here.

Isaan can be referred to either an area or a language which is not exactly the same but similar to Laos. And in Isaan language itself has many dialects depending on which part of Isaan.

[pbkk]

When i first arrived here a few years ago i asked a friend who has lived here for years why Thais didn't pronounce their r's and he said "Because they're LAZY "

I believe him now

[kayo]

Most of my thai mates say falang.

When in rome....

Is the O.P a Falang or Thai?

[solid]

So, the correct version is farang. But falang is understandable although it does not really sound educated.

Not if you're a Thai who speaks regional Isarn and some of them are educated.

There are many educated people who don't really care how it's pronounced properly (they are just too lazy to get it right). Not only in Isaan.

So, if you wanna say falang, that's up to you. People will understand it.

Edited January 10, 2007 by solid

[gburns57au]

Respectfully disagree, here.

Isaan can be referred to either an area or a language which is not exactly the same but similar to Laos. And in Isaan language itself has many dialects depending on which part of Isaan.

There is not a singular Isaan language.....there are many Isaan dialects.

For instance...a central Thai will tell you someone is speaking Isaan because they dont recognise what that person is speaking...they classify it as Isaan in general but they cant specify where that person comes from in the Isaan area.

Again the Isaan area includes the Laos and Cambodian border regions...is someone who speaks Khmer less Isaan than a Laos person...NO... they all live in the Isaan region...even though they dont talk the same lingo.

Isaan is a region or an area within the Thai Kingdom....it is not a language.

[Tarragona]

There are many educated people who don't really care how it's pronounced properly (they are just too lazy to get it right). Not only in Isaan.

So, if you wanna say falang, that's up to you. People will understand it.

It's definitely not just an Isaan thing. One of the most constant gripes Ihear from (Thai) teachers in Bangkok is how the young generation hardly produce their 'r' sounds any more.

One actually explained to me that Central Thai has a number of dialects and the national language should really be referred to as 'Standard Thai', as it is the official version. He reckons that in the central dialects are now replacing the standard version in much wider contexts of everyday speech, hence the increasing use of 'l' where 'r' should be used in the standard.

Any thoughts?

The actual sound of these three letters when in syllable final position is neither a /g/ (because unlike /g/ it has no vocal chord vibration) not a 'k' (because it has no puff of air after it). What happens is, your tongue stops where you would start to make either a /g/ or a /k/ - there is no real equivalent of this in English.

Except that in English the final 'k' is often unreleased.

Edited January 10, 2007 by Tarragona

[gburns57au]

There are many educated people who don't really care how it's pronounced properly (they are just too lazy to get it right). Not only in Isaan.

So, if you wanna say falang, that's up to you. People will understand it.

It's definitely not just an Isaan thing. One of the most constant gripes Ihear from (Thai) teachers in Bangkok is how the young generation hardly produce their 'r' sounds any more.

One actually explained to me that Central Thai has a number of dialects and the national language should really be referred to as 'Standard Thai', as it is the official version. He reckons that in the central dialects are now replacing the standard version in much wider contexts of everyday speech, hence the increasing use of 'l' where 'r' should be used in the standard.

Any thoughts?

I had the same experience as a previous poster...I asked about the difference between the L and R sounds...and got the same answer....over the years the R sound has been displaced by the L sound out of sheer laziness...

The Cambodian border regions which are some of the most recently acquired regions of Thailand had to learn to speak Thai...they were taught to pronounce the R as an R rather than the L sound...seems logical to me....however the rest of the country still substitutes the R sound with the L sound.

[meadish_sweetball]

One actually explained to me that Central Thai has a number of dialects and the national language should really be referred to as 'Standard Thai', as it is the official version.

That is actually a very good point. 'Standard Thai' is a better description for the polite and carefully pronounced version of Thai which is taught in schools and spoken on newscasts - this in turn is based on the dialect spoken in Central Thailand.

I often forget myself and speak of 'Central Thai' when I should say 'Standard Thai', the reason being that Thais themselves call Standard Thai ภาษากลาง phasaa klaang which literally means 'middle language' or 'central language', and is habitually translated into 'Central Thai'.

As a side note, Bangkok Thai shows a lot of deviations from Standard Thai and many Bangkok people do not pronounce ร as /r/ in their spoken language either. Some of these Bangkokians, unsure of exactly whom this group consists of, also have an r sound which is like the 'r' in Mandarin or American English. Not sure if this is an influence or inheritance from Mandarin speakers or an en vogue pronunciation brought in by mixed hi so families educated abroad.

[Neeranam]

There is not a singular Isaan language.....there are many Isaan dialects.

In Khon Kaen I hear people say all the time that I speak 'passa Isarn', but maybe that is the Khon Kaen dialect.

Edited January 10, 2007 by Neeranam

[gburns57au]

One actually explained to me that Central Thai has a number of dialects and the national language should really be referred to as 'Standard Thai', as it is the official version.

That is actually a very good point. 'Standard Thai' is a better description for the polite and carefully pronounced version of Thai which is taught in schools and spoken on newscasts - this in turn is based on the dialect spoken in Central Thailand.

I often forget myself and speak of 'Central Thai' when I should say 'Standard Thai', the reason being that Thais themselves call Standard Thai ภาษากลาง phasaa klaang which literally means 'middle language' or 'central language', and is habitually translated into 'Central Thai'.

As a side note, Bangkok Thai shows a lot of deviations from Standard Thai and many Bangkok people do not pronounce ร as /r/ in their spoken language either. Some of these Bangkokians, unsure of exactly whom this group consists of, also have an r sound which is like the 'r' in Mandarin or American English. Not sure if this is an influence or inheritance from Mandarin speakers or an en vogue pronunciation brought in by mixed hi so families educated abroad.

Alternatively known as Oxford Thai by some falang.....great for the HI So...but the average Thai while understanding would look at you rather strangely...

[solid]

Respectfully disagree, here.

Isaan can be referred to either an area or a language which is not exactly the same but similar to Laos. And in Isaan language itself has many dialects depending on which part of Isaan.

There is not a singular Isaan language.....there are many Isaan dialects.

For instance...a central Thai will tell you someone is speaking Isaan because they dont recognise what that person is speaking...they classify it as Isaan in general but they cant specify where that person comes from in the Isaan area.

Again the Isaan area includes the Laos and Cambodian border regions...is someone who speaks Khmer less Isaan than a Laos person...NO... they all live in the Isaan region...even though they dont talk the same lingo.

Isaan is a region or an area within the Thai Kingdom....it is not a language.

I didn't say anywhere that someone who speaks Khmer is not from Isaan. You jumped to that conclusion yourself. And a Laos person (or language) is not the same as an Isaan person (or language). Isaan = northeast, not Laos.

These are fancy words for north, east, sounth, west, etc.

Isaan = northeast

Udon = north (don't get confused with Udon Thani)

Burapa = east

Prajim = west

ohh i forgot to add.

Thaksin = south

Edited January 10, 2007 by solid

[gburns57au]

There is not a singular Isaan language.....there are many Isaan dialects.

In Khon Kaen I hear people say all the time that I speak 'passa Isarn', but maybe that is the Khon Kaen dialect.

To confuse things even more...Isaan people dont like to be called Isaan in general. So the people in Khon Kaen will say they speak Thai...everyone else speaks Isaan....

[Briggsy]

To confuse things even more...Isaan people dont like to be called Isaan in general. So the people in Khon Kaen will say they speak Thai...everyone else speaks Isaan....

What is the source of your incorrect info?

[simon43]

So, the correct version is farang. But falang is understandable although it does not really sound educated

[\quote]

So what would you prefer to sound like? An educated person or an uneducated person? Since Thailand is all about class and face, this could be an important decision.....

Simon

[Neeranam]

Isan language

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - Cite This Source

Isan (also Isaan or Esarn) is the language of the Isan region of Thailand. It is a tonal language of the Tai family, and is closely related to Lao, but has also been much influenced by Thai; the three are substantially mutually comprehensible. Phonology and the rules for determining tones vary in each dialect, but are generally similar to Lao. The Khorat dialect blends features of Isan and Thai. The vocabulary is largely the same as in Lao, except for the use of Thai loan words and neologisms. It was previously written using the Lao script, with Tua Tham used for religious inscriptions. Since the introduction of Thai language schooling in the 1920s it has been written in the Thai script. In previous times, before the adoption of the neologism 'Isaan', the language and people were referred to as Lao, and, though decreasingly, the language and people are still known as 'Lao' to many people, as a derisive comment from the Central Thai, noting the peculiar Lao features of the language, and by locals, especially older people.

History

The word Isan literally means "North-East", and is a Thai adaptation of a Khmer (an unrelated language) toponym of Sanskrit origin. Since the establishment of the Mekong River as the frontier between Laos and Thailand, the language of the Isan region been influenced increasingly by Thai (especially through the medium of television) and has further diverged from Lao, but the three languages are still substantially mutually comprehensible.

Isan is generally not used as a language of written communication, but when it is written, the Thai script is used (rather than the Lao), creating another distinction between the two languages. Continued migration of Lao into Thailand (especially during the period of the Indochina wars and following the establishment of a communist regime in Laos in 1975) has tended to preserve Lao features of the language against Thai assimilation. The popularity of a local music form, morlam, has also re-inforced Lao-like features, as artists from both sides of the Mekong, the main division between the Isan region and Laos, are popular in both areas. Growing trade on the Mekong River frontier has also stabilised Lao-like features of the Isaan language. Despite growing similarites to Standard Thai, Isaan still is more Lao-like and less awkward to understand by Lao speakers than to people from Bangkok, due to similar pronunciations and vocabulary. However, both Isaan and Lao people generally understand standard Thai via television, radio, and education.

[gburns57au]

Respectfully disagree, here.

Isaan can be referred to either an area or a language which is not exactly the same but similar to Laos. And in Isaan language itself has many dialects depending on which part of Isaan.

There is not a singular Isaan language.....there are many Isaan dialects.

For instance...a central Thai will tell you someone is speaking Isaan because they dont recognise what that person is speaking...they classify it as Isaan in general but they cant specify where that person comes from in the Isaan area.

Again the Isaan area includes the Laos and Cambodian border regions...is someone who speaks Khmer less Isaan than a Laos person...NO... they all live in the Isaan region...even though they dont talk the same lingo.

Isaan is a region or an area within the Thai Kingdom....it is not a language.

I didn't say anywhere that someone who speaks Khmer is not from Isaan. You jumped to that conclusion yourself. And a Laos person (or language) is not the same as an Isaan person (or language). Isaan = northeast, not Laos.

These are fancy words for north, east, sounth, west, etc.

Isaan = northeast

Udon = north (don't get confused with Udon Thani)

Burapa = east

Prajim = west

I did not come to a conclusion...I made a proposition....and I answered my own proposition.

Isaan = northeast.....now you're getting the drift !!

Once you have driven through Nakhon Ratchasima heading East...you have entered the Isaan region...but please dont tell the NR's that they are Isaan they will deny it.....they are Thai not Isaan. If from there you head in a south east direction you will find The Khmer language....head east or north-east and you will run into the Laos language...anywhere in between and within those areas you will find that there are differences in how the people speak...these are the dialects. The further North you go you may even find some Chinese influence.

[dee123]

no simon you think thailand is all about class and face the more world wisely of us believe its about lots more than that..........travel

[Briggsy]

Respectfully disagree, here.

Isaan can be referred to either an area or a language which is not exactly the same but similar to Laos. And in Isaan language itself has many dialects depending on which part of Isaan.

There is not a singular Isaan language.....there are many Isaan dialects.

For instance...a central Thai will tell you someone is speaking Isaan because they dont recognise what that person is speaking...they classify it as Isaan in general but they cant specify where that person comes from in the Isaan area.

Again the Isaan area includes the Laos and Cambodian border regions...is someone who speaks Khmer less Isaan than a Laos person...NO... they all live in the Isaan region...even though they dont talk the same lingo.

Isaan is a region or an area within the Thai Kingdom....it is not a language.

I didn't say anywhere that someone who speaks Khmer is not from Isaan. You jumped to that conclusion yourself. And a Laos person (or language) is not the same as an Isaan person (or language). Isaan = northeast, not Laos.

These are fancy words for north, east, sounth, west, etc.

Isaan = northeast

Udon = north (don't get confused with Udon Thani)

Burapa = east

Prajim = west

I did not come to a conclusion...I made a proposition....and I answered my own proposition.

Isaan = northeast.....now you're getting the drift !!

Once you have driven through Nakhon Ratchasima heading East...you have entered the Isaan region...but please dont tell the NR's that they are Isaan they will deny it.....they are Thai not Isaan. If from there you head in a south east direction you will find The Khmer language....head east or north-east and you will run into the Laos language...anywhere in between and within those areas you will find that there are differences in how the people speak...these are the dialects. The further North you go you may even find some Chinese influence.

Now you have gone too far. There are no Sino dialects in current Isaan except for the dodgy vendors that the immigration office in Nong Khai has issued work permits in the last couple of years. Provide specific info please.

[gburns57au]

To confuse things even more...Isaan people dont like to be called Isaan in general. So the people in Khon Kaen will say they speak Thai...everyone else speaks Isaan....

What is the source of your incorrect info?

You obviously didnt see the two smilies...which indicates a post made in jest....

Oh dear....you just cant help yourself can you

[dee123]

quick corner him guys before he hangs up

[Nongwahyay]

This thread has gone a long way, based on such a simple question........... to all those who got worked up about the correct pronunciation, all I can say is "mai pen rai"...............

.................or is there by any chance another way of pronouncing this??????????

[Briggsy]

To confuse things even more...Isaan people dont like to be called Isaan in general. So the people in Khon Kaen will say they speak Thai...everyone else speaks Isaan....

What is the source of your incorrect info?

You obviously didnt see the two smilies...which indicates a post made in jest....

Oh dear....you just cant help yourself can you

I give up. I'll leave this to somebody else to educate you.

[dee123]

with the help of some of you guys i could go far,who knowsmaybe even speakers corner

[solid]

Ohh man, I have nothing left to say.

[gburns57au]

Respectfully disagree, here.

Isaan can be referred to either an area or a language which is not exactly the same but similar to Laos. And in Isaan language itself has many dialects depending on which part of Isaan.

There is not a singular Isaan language.....there are many Isaan dialects.

For instance...a central Thai will tell you someone is speaking Isaan because they dont recognise what that person is speaking...they classify it as Isaan in general but they cant specify where that person comes from in the Isaan area.

Again the Isaan area includes the Laos and Cambodian border regions...is someone who speaks Khmer less Isaan than a Laos person...NO... they all live in the Isaan region...even though they dont talk the same lingo.

Isaan is a region or an area within the Thai Kingdom....it is not a language.

I didn't say anywhere that someone who speaks Khmer is not from Isaan. You jumped to that conclusion yourself. And a Laos person (or language) is not the same as an Isaan person (or language). Isaan = northeast, not Laos.

These are fancy words for north, east, sounth, west, etc.

Isaan = northeast

Udon = north (don't get confused with Udon Thani)

Burapa = east

Prajim = west

I did not come to a conclusion...I made a proposition....and I answered my own proposition.

Isaan = northeast.....now you're getting the drift !!

Once you have driven through Nakhon Ratchasima heading East...you have entered the Isaan region...but please dont tell the NR's that they are Isaan they will deny it.....they are Thai not Isaan. If from there you head in a south east direction you will find The Khmer language....head east or north-east and you will run into the Laos language...anywhere in between and within those areas you will find that there are differences in how the people speak...these are the dialects. The further North you go you may even find some Chinese influence.

Now you have gone too far. There are no Sino dialects in current Isaan except for the dodgy vendors that the immigration office in Nong Khai has issued work permits in the last couple of years. Provide specific info please.

settle down <deleted>....

I said .....you MAY even find some Chinese INFLUENCE...

Would you please stand and tell the class that when two countries share a border that they is never any merger of a language at least if not in a idiomatic sense... go to bed...youre tired.

[Briggsy]

Respectfully disagree, here.

Isaan can be referred to either an area or a language which is not exactly the same but similar to Laos. And in Isaan language itself has many dialects depending on which part of Isaan.

There is not a singular Isaan language.....there are many Isaan dialects.

For instance...a central Thai will tell you someone is speaking Isaan because they dont recognise what that person is speaking...they classify it as Isaan in general but they cant specify where that person comes from in the Isaan area.

Again the Isaan area includes the Laos and Cambodian border regions...is someone who speaks Khmer less Isaan than a Laos person...NO... they all live in the Isaan region...even though they dont talk the same lingo.

Isaan is a region or an area within the Thai Kingdom....it is not a language.

I didn't say anywhere that someone who speaks Khmer is not from Isaan. You jumped to that conclusion yourself. And a Laos person (or language) is not the same as an Isaan person (or language). Isaan = northeast, not Laos.

These are fancy words for north, east, sounth, west, etc.

Isaan = northeast

Udon = north (don't get confused with Udon Thani)

Burapa = east

Prajim = west

I did not come to a conclusion...I made a proposition....and I answered my own proposition.

Isaan = northeast.....now you're getting the drift !!

Once you have driven through Nakhon Ratchasima heading East...you have entered the Isaan region...but please dont tell the NR's that they are Isaan they will deny it.....they are Thai not Isaan. If from there you head in a south east direction you will find The Khmer language....head east or north-east and you will run into the Laos language...anywhere in between and within those areas you will find that there are differences in how the people speak...these are the dialects. The further North you go you may even find some Chinese influence.

Now you have gone too far. There are no Sino dialects in current Isaan except for the dodgy vendors that the immigration office in Nong Khai has issued work permits in the last couple of years. Provide specific info please.

settle down <deleted>....

I said .....you MAY even find some Chinese INFLUENCE...

Would you please stand and tell the class that when two countries share a border that they is never any merger of a language at least if not in a idiomatic sense... go to bed...youre tired.

Oh I can't resist. China and Thailand do not share a border.

[chuchok]

There are not too many pommies that I have heard say "farung" properly.

Is there anything that pommies say properly?

"my shout"

Shouldnt that be "your round"

Farung.....this from someone who pronounces six as sex.......

Or the gormless race that pronounces six as sex....