SURVEY: Brexit -- Good or Bad Idea?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

The 'educated remainist' is a forum running joke.

How very dare you!

 

The 'moronic brexiter' is not a joke!

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Where have you been since 1973. We have been trying to effect change for 40 odd years and we are no nearer controlling our national borders, deregulating laws for the sake of laws, restoring sovereignty through the British legal system, better control of our fishing grounds etc. etc. How much time do you want to allocate to effect change. 60, 80, 100 years or do you take the pragmatic views of the Leavers "Change ain't gonna happen"

Wrong target dear boy, look to your own government! Why have they not controlled our borders? Why do we have crap benefits? Easy target eh? You think things will improve?

[mommysboy]

It was the worst possible referendum result, even the Brexiteers are left with a three legged donkey.  But it is a result, and the only one that counts.

 

I'm not sure that recent opinion polls can be taken in to consideration, even if they do show an increasing momentum against Brexit.  There would have to be something more substantial than that to dislodge the referendum result.  Yet, what I would say that is that there must surely come a time when reasonable people (the silent majority), regardless of how they voted, will signal that enough is enough.  No one voted for a raw deal orchestrated  by a government clinging on for dear life, that has lost its bearings so much that it is willing to sacrifice the nation's best interests in order to force Brexit through.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Do you mean PR like Germany's. At the moment they don't have a functioning government and some pundits say it might be 6 months before they get one.  So much for PR.

Yes. Exactly like that

[Ducking and]

Too many people around who didn’t realise there is inevitably going to be some short-term pain necessary for the long-term gain of not being ruled by a wasteful and improvident set-up and parliament in which the U.K. would never have any significant influence to enact or change anything ( only a 4% voice, I think) and which is not anything like the democracy with checks and balances we in the U.K. struggled for 700 years to achieve.

 

Don't like the Tories but I do admire those who have the balls (or tits) to see through difficult negotiations only made harder by the stupidity of the last election. It’s always easy enough to criticise but those that do demean their intelligence.

[Grouse]

Night all! My poor little index finger is red raw! 

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

You did claim that most of the leavers you know had immigration at the top of the list though. And you have to concede that immigration and accusations of racism are always at the top of remain's criticism of leavers. Immigration was also a concern of mine, just not the biggest one. Sovereignty was (please don't try to sidetrack the discussions with sovereignty semantics). Your last sentence is quite disingenuous.

 

Nope, still confusing me with someone else.  And you have to consider what the remains aren't basing their feelings on which is not necessarily the leave voters themselves but the leave campaign, which was full of anti immigration rhetoric that slipped into racism, the campaign was a success so it is only logical to assume that the voters did so out of agreement the anti immigration message.

[nontabury]

8 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Nope, still confusing me with someone else.  And you have to consider what the remains aren't basing their feelings on which is not necessarily the leave voters themselves but the leave campaign, which was full of anti immigration rhetoric that slipped into racism, the campaign was a success so it is only logical to assume that the voters did so out of agreement the anti immigration message.

The old chestnuts again. Brexiteer are racist, uneducated ,old 

 

 

[thaihome]

So, one day, while taking my weekly bath, I noticed one of my feet looked noticeably different then what I was used to. So I trotted on down to my local NHS clinic and talked to the doctor.  He told me it wasn't serious and if I took the pills he gave me the foot would soon be ok. 

 

When I talked to my mates down at the pub, they told me the doctor was some foriegn, elite quack and if I didn't do something really radical both my feet were going soon to look different. 

 

Well, I've known those mates all my life and that doctor was from some Eastern European country I'm not sure we're it is so, of course I listened to my mates and borrowed a shotgun and blew off the foot that looked different. 

 

I now have no worry that my one foot will ever be different from the other (since it's gone), but why didn't my mates mention that that very good doctor is now gone and the NHS says they can't afford to give me a fake foot to replace the one I blew off? They did give me a very nice wooden crutch to use. ?

TH 

[whatsupdoc]

Excellent article in the Guardian today: “What the grim reality of a bad-tempered Brexit really means”. Gives some good insight of what to expect where there will be no deal.


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[Kieran00001]

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

The old chestnuts again. Brexiteer are racist, uneducated ,old 

 

 

 

 

Is that what what I said?  I didn't, I didn't mention age or education, and I said the it was the campaign that was anti immigration and racist, and that is a fact, and I also said that many are basing their assumptions on leave voters based on the campaign, which is not entirely unfair.  How that translated to you as me claiming that leave voters were all racist, uneducated and old is beyond me.  Thats three misquotes in a row, what is going on with you, sort it out!

[nontabury]

2 minutes ago, whatsupdoc said:

Excellent article in the Guardian today: “What the grim reality of a bad-tempered Brexit really means”. Gives some good insight of what to expect where there will be no deal.


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That,s what I like to see,unbiased reporting from the flaky Guardian.

 

 

 

 

[nontabury]

17 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

 

Is that what what I said?  I didn't, I didn't mention age or education, and I said the it was the campaign that was anti immigration and racist, and that is a fact, and I also said that many are basing their assumptions on leave voters based on the campaign, which is not entirely unfair.  How that translated to you as me claiming that leave voters were all racist, uneducated and old is beyond me.  Thats three misquotes in a row, what is going on with you, sort it out!

Try watching and listening to the video.

[aright]

41 minutes ago, Ducking and said:

Too many people around who didn’t realise there is inevitably going to be some short-term pain necessary for the long-term gain of not being ruled by a wasteful and improvident set-up and parliament in which the U.K. would never have any significant influence to enact or change anything ( only a 4% voice, I think) and which is not anything like the democracy with checks and balances we in the U.K. struggled for 700 years to achieve.

 

Don't like the Tories but I do admire those who have the balls (or tits) to see through difficult negotiations only made harder by the stupidity of the last election. It’s always easy enough to criticise but those that do demean their intelligence.

I have always regarded the British as a vibrant, proud, introspective, patriotic, idiosyncratic, independant people with a high regard for tradition.

I think the referendum has thrown up a group in our midst who secretly enjoy being nannied. They desperately require cradle to grave social provision. The UK striking out on its own was just a step too far from their preferred   social model.

[Khun Han]

16 minutes ago, nontabury said:

That,s what I like to see,unbiased reporting from the flaky Guardian.

 

 

 

 

 

I love this particular line from the Grauniad article in question:

 

"None of the trade deals they envisaged have been done and none are in sight. (It is not possible to enter into them until we leave the customs union)."

 

As though there is any point in even making the statement about trade deals not being done. And the claim that there are none in sight is pure disingenuity:  Prelim talks are a fair way down the line with several nations, with publicly expressed eagerness by said nations to conclude deals at the earliest opportunity.

 

The Grauniad.Bless.

[Kieran00001]

7 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Try watching and listening to the video.

 

Id really rather not pollute my mind listening to that horrible racist witch from LBC, thanks anyway.

[citybiker]

Rather a late contribution to this thread, however Brexit is what the U.K. makes of it.

A very controversial & surprise result, much has significantly changed since the original EEC-EU development, really disappointing all the disgruntled anti-U.K./Brexit haters as everyone is entitled to their ‘own’ view and it’s still a very divisive issue.

I don’t hate the EU, I like Europe and always will, it’s the ‘political’ element of the EU that eventually pushed many to vote they way they did, all the unnecessary mudslinging against the Pro Brexit supporters is unwarranted and frankly lowers the strength of the members post and narrative.


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[Kieran00001]

3 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Rather a late contribution to this thread, however Brexit is what the U.K. makes of it.

A very controversial & surprise result, much has significantly changed since the original EEC-EU development, really disappointing all the disgruntled anti-U.K./Brexit haters as everyone is entitled to their ‘own’ view and it’s still a very divisive issue.

I don’t hate the EU, I like Europe and always will, it’s the ‘political’ element of the EU that eventually pushed many to vote they way they did, all the unnecessary mudslinging against the Pro Brexit supporters is unwarranted and frankly lowers the strength of the members post and narrative.


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You say that everyone is entitled to their own view and in the same sentence call people who do not want Brexit, "Anti-UK", it would seem you do want to afford others their opinions at all! 

[Jip99]

12 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Id really rather not pollute my mind listening to that horrible racist witch from LBC, thanks anyway.

 

 

No pre-conceived bias there then?

 

 

It sometimes broadens the mind listening to contrary opinions.

 

I was never a fan of Peter Shore, who I considered to be a loonie lefty, but I found his 1975 Oxford Union speech compelling. 

 

 

[adammike]

20 hours ago, shanesox said:

What nonsense ! “Small militarily”? Where you get that from! Your EU fantasy of an EU army? The EU Is failing and will break up


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France have recently elected a very pro EU leader, just today Austria have elected a far right but pro EU leader, Germany have re-elected Angela a reduced majority true, where is this break up? Name a country in the EU that seriously wants to leave? The UK voted 38% of the electorate to leave. 

[adammike]

8 hours ago, Grouse said:

Yes. Exactly like that

It's the same in the Netherlands they have always had coalitions sometimes they take six months or more Belgium took for ever.it doesn't mean they are without government the prime minister and cabinet carry on they just don't do contentious issues like Brexit.of course they are failing miserabley and will be bankrupt by Christmas and going cap in hand to the IMF. Losers. 

[taipeir]

I have always regarded the British as a vibrant, proud, introspective, patriotic, idiosyncratic, independant people with a high regard for tradition. I think the referendum has thrown up a group in our midst who secretly enjoy being nannied. They desperately require cradle to grave social provision. The UK striking out on its own was just a step too far from their preferred   social model.

 

 

The UK pretty much invented socialism and unions.

 

You should learn your own history.

 

Peterborough riots 19th century.

 

Marx and Engels. Marx wrote his communist manifesto while based in London.

 

The Labour party.

 

 

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[taipeir]

Rather a late contribution to this thread, however Brexit is what the U.K. makes of it. A very controversial & surprise result, much has significantly changed since the original EEC-EU development, really disappointing all the disgruntled anti-U.K./Brexit haters as everyone is entitled to their ‘own’ view and it’s still a very divisive issue. I don’t hate the EU, I like Europe and always will, it’s the ‘political’ element of the EU that eventually pushed many to vote they way they did, all the unnecessary mudslinging against the Pro Brexit supporters is unwarranted and frankly lowers the strength of the members post and narrative.

 

 

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A lot of Brexit voters seem to hate European immigrants (just immigrants really) or at least repeat soundibites that denigrated them. The tabloid papers in the UK were also full of this invective and still at it.  A lot of racist came out of the woodwork after the result.

 

http://www.reasonandreality.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/xenophobic-headlines.jpg

 

Lies

 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ClI-IPKUsAAf2NA.jpg

 

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-SsT4t2VDuDg/VrrvSVwzltI/AAAAAAAABl4/Wae5OvOZiVA/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/Blogger%2BDaily%2BExpress%2Bwrong%2Bdiagnosis.png

 

And the above poster talks about unnecessary mud slinging?

Pull the other one.

 

 

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[SheungWan]

9 hours ago, aright said:

I have always regarded the British as a vibrant, proud, introspective, patriotic, idiosyncratic, independant people with a high regard for tradition.

I think the referendum has thrown up a group in our midst who secretly enjoy being nannied. They desperately require cradle to grave social provision. The UK striking out on its own was just a step too far from their preferred   social model.

 

1 hour ago, taipeir said:

 

The UK pretty much invented socialism and unions.

 

You should learn your own history.

 

Peterborough riots 19th century.

 

Marx and Engels. Marx wrote his communist manifesto while based in London.

 

The Labour party.

 

 

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What on earth are you two on about?

[mommysboy]

10 hours ago, Ducking and said:

Too many people around who didn’t realise there is inevitably going to be some short-term pain necessary for the long-term gain of not being ruled by a wasteful and improvident set-up and parliament in which the U.K. would never have any significant influence to enact or change anything ( only a 4% voice, I think) and which is not anything like the democracy with checks and balances we in the U.K. struggled for 700 years to achieve.

 

Don't like the Tories but I do admire those who have the balls (or tits) to see through difficult negotiations only made harder by the stupidity of the last election. It’s always easy enough to criticise but those that do demean their intelligence.

Just because there is pain does not mean there is gain to be had.  It's also easy to be dismissive of pain when you are not feeling it.

[marginline]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

To force change, a majority of the ELECTORATE is required. It does not matter what the turn out is. If the electorate is 40,000,000 you would need 20,000,001 to force change even if only 30,000,000 voted

We've already had an answer of sorts krub, seeing you keep going round in circles. The rest of the electorate who couldn't be bothered to vote - simply abstained. Thanks. 

[marginline]

12 hours ago, Grouse said:

If you're going to use a proxy krub you are better off in Thailand

 

Really? Well, at least I took the time to vote - unlike the 13-million who abstained krub.

[marginline]

17 hours ago, marginline said:

Oh I'm sorry Khun Han, I didn't know that I wasn't entitled to an opinion on this forum krub. I guess you're right then. Well done, now go get your prize!

Khun Han, Grouse...I am the one who is confused krub because if you remember Khun Han, one minute you're writing this...

Quote

I'm pretty sure that the busload of opinion polls taken after the referendum showed that immigration was far from the most important issue.

 

and then minutes later...

Quote

The biggest poll taken after the referendum (AshcroftPolls) showed 49% of leave voters having sovereignty as their main reason for voting. Immigration came in at 33%.

1

 

[nontabury]

12 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

You say that everyone is entitled to their own view and in the same sentence call people who do not want Brexit, "Anti-UK", it would seem you do want to afford others their opinions at all! 

Better you read your reply on post 256.

Regarding being anti-British,you are on three completely different threads on TV.

On each one you are in opposition to British people,so consistent. I wonder what nationality you actually are.

[nauseus]

16 hours ago, sirineou said:

Thank you for that explanation

, as I said I am an American  and I don't follow this as closely as you all would, But I do stop to look. much in the way that most of as do as we pass a car wreck.

If indeed it's a joke it is IMO not very funny making the term "educate" a pejorative term and taken out of context with the intent to diminish and dismiss.

I don't appreciate being dismissed, what I do appreciate is, that if any of the points I made are wrong , to point out where ,and howk so that I can also be "educated"

I am sure that those who say "educated" mean on the subject.

I am sure we will all agree that Einstein  was a very well educated man but I am sure in some subjects not as much as others.  I am certainly very well educated in some and not so much in others, I suspect the same is true for most of as,

You said: 

 

IMO though demographics have a part to play, if a new referendum took place it will fail to produce a "leave" result simply because people are more educated on the subject  now.

 

You used the Ed word first. I'm personally sick of seeing it associated with this topic.

By saying this you infer that leave voters were uneducated. As a leaver, I don't appreciate that.

If you pass by a car wreck can you be sure just by looking who's fault it was?