SURVEY: Brexit -- Good or Bad Idea?

[taipeir]

No. You would be incorrect whatsupdoc krub. I voted for Brexit because; while happy to remain in just a 'common market'; I did not want to see many of the 'unions' the EU wanted to force on the UK (i.e. combined military, combined currency, combined laws, etc.,) - implemented krub.

Who is this mysterious EU which was going to force the UK to join european military , currency etc?

The EU is a collection of 27 countries.

It is impossible for the UK to forced into those 'unions' as EU treaty changes for those areas require unaminity votes by existing members. One member can veto any treaty change.

So it seems thats just fear mongering talk.

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[Kieran00001]

11 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Then provide some evidence to support your unsustantiated claim that immigration was the main issue. All I can find to support it is a biased (as usual) Indy interpretation of a broad-sweeping survey.

I didn't claim that, you are confusing me with someone else.  But I think the National Center for Social Research's survey is more honest, at least they are open about their sources and their result is very different indeed, 3/4 stating that they voted leave and are concerned with immigration.  The problem with asking people what their main concern was, as in the Ashcroft and your own idea, is that this makes people choose between what maybe two or three reasons they are voting for, they also may be inclined to choose a different choice than immigration first despite this being their prime reason for fear of appearing racist, better to ask them specifically if immigration was a concern if you are trying to find out how many were concerned by immigration.

[taipeir]

As an American looking in- just a few comments and observations.
 
- The Uk was strong before  joining the EU and will be strong after leaving the EU. The UK is the 5th largest economy in the World; has a strong military and a very educated population .
- Many UK citizens are tired of seeing their culture changed; their culture diluted and an assault on British traditions . Many of the foreign entries into Britain have tried to change British culture when they should be accepting it.
-  Why should another Government- the EU- be allowed to tell the UK how to run its internal policies; dictate regulations and budgets and generally act as if there exists a United States of Europe.  Many UK citizens see a loss of sovereignty
-Britain will never give up the pound as its currency and has continually resisted the EU from forcing the Euro on the British.
-The EU has expanded  too much and is too large and this is not compatible with individual governments programs for its citizens.
-The unfettered movement of different nationalities across the Euro zone has caused lower wages; lost productivity and resentment.
 
The most important point is the the citizens of the U.K. have voted to leave the EU and this has to be respected.  History will determine if it is the right choice.

Most of those 'foreigners' are from the British commonwealth and have legally immigrated to Britain.

They are not going anywhere.

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[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, nontabury said:

Yes it was the will of the people, who are you to say, those who din’t vote,would have voted with you.

 

 

"Start doing your job. If you don't like it clear off". Classic.

[taipeir]

 

Just to clarify (to alleviate your confusion whatsupdoc):

 

Why are job losses inevitable (unemployment in the UK has fallen spectacularly since the referendum)?

 

Which companies will leave the UK?

 

Why would EU trade deals (with all their restrictive practices) be better than more open UK ones?

 

Why would EU workers in the UK feel insecure? The government has covered this.

The company I worked for just hired two hundred IT people in Romania.

 

We have existing IT operations in the UK but I guessed on a combination of concerns around Brexit and cost savings and access to well educated multilingual staff that they have already switched all IT investment to Romania. Sad for UK but good for Romania.

 

By the way Romania is booming right now.

 

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[MaeJoMTB]

12 minutes ago, taipeir said:

Most of those 'foreigners' are from the British commonwealth and have legally immigrated to Britain.

They are not going anywhere.

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Usual deflection post desperately trying to make Brexiteers look like racists, most of us were never worried by Commonwealth (coloured) Immigrants, but we sure as hell didn't want the Polish, Romanian, and other East Europeans that came flooding in with the open borders policy. Along with all the 'Muslim refugees' that Germany insisted we have.

 

If I may remind you, Muslim isn't a race, it's a religion  and it's a religion that is anti everything Europe formally stood for, anti freedom of speech, anti womens rights, anti freedom of expression, and anti freedom of religion, it's even anti freedom to eat what you like.

[taipeir]

The best thing about the 'will of the people ' is it can adapt to reality overtime .

It's a funny thing the 'will of the people '.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-poll-new-eu-leave-regret-remain-yougov-times-latest-theresa-may-bad-idea-a8000156.html


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[taipeir]

Usual deflection post desperately trying to make Brexiteers look like racists, most of us were never worried by Commonwealth (coloured) Immigrants, but we sure as hell didn't want the Polish, Romanian, and other East Europeans that came flooding in with the open borders policy. Along with all the 'Muslim refugees' that Germany insisted we have.

It was in reply to the American who claimed that the British didn't want all these foreigners coming in changing their culture.

 

A bit late for that lol when the national dish is a toss up between Chicken Madras and Lamb korma!

 

 

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[MaeJoMTB]

3 minutes ago, taipeir said:

It was in reply to the American who claimed that the British didn't want all these foreigners coming in changing their culture.

You were still wrong, Commonwealth people were broadly British culture, as part of the Empire they had been assimilated. 

[Kieran00001]

1 minute ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Commonwealth people were broadly British culture, as part of the Empire they had been assimilated. 

 

Not everyday you hear people claiming that the Pakistanis share our culture and have been assimilated, at least not from the mouths of those opposed to immigration!

[sirineou]

4 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

Since the referendum some half a million old people have died and half a million young people have reached the eligible age to vote, considering the demographics of leave votes were heavily swayed to the old whereas the young voted at a much higher percentage to remain, if there was another vote today what would be the chance that it would not be to remain?  Approximately none?

I am American with no skin on the game,and I think that brexit is a mistake, 

but there is a fault in your above logic.

Indeed a X number of old people have died since the referendum but an equal  X number of younger people also become old leaving the age demographics unchanged,

in fact with the decrease in fertility and the decrease in mortality  the trend is moving in the opposite direction with the age demographics are skewed more toward the population getting older.

 Of course you could argue  that those who were young and had a "stay" attitude now that are older will maintain their "stay" attitude,  a fair argument, and I might be inclined to agree.

The Old people of yesterday come from a different era than the old people of tomorrow and might have different opinions., 

IMO though demographics have a part to play, if a new referendum took place it will fail to produce a "leave" result simply because people are more educated on the subject  now.

As much as people might like to defend their decision to vote "leave" I can't see how, knowing what they know now, would not  change   some of their vote. Where the "stay" faction sees their decision justified.

 Also since I am posting on the subject, IMO the EU would be better off without  British abstractionism in it's quest to move forward where the UK , IMO, will gain litle from leaving but lose a lot.. 

 The concept of the sovereign state as it exists today is a relatively new phenomenon in human history and  is evolving.

IMO regardless of where the "leave faction wants to go was a good place or not, the place simple  does not exist. Brexit is leading you out in the wild. 

 

[clashpie]

I wonder how many of my fellow UK citizens would have still voted on leaving Europe had they know the full facts of what leaving Europe meant?

Cameron has left this county in a state of limbo and a divided nation lead by a government who can't even sort out their own problems never mind a decent Brexit deal!

Yes we all know the immigration issue had to be tackled at some point but did we have to leave Europe to achieve this?

Talking to folk both young and old it would appear that there is a generation difference on Europe.

Young want to stay within Europe with all the benefits it entails for the future and older folk want to return to the 'good old days' of Britain standing on its own two feet and making sure our borders are firmly shut to all but a few.

Where I live we have Romanians and Polish folk who work (and work hard)/pay their taxes/and contribute to the country/community ....and then  I have neighbours born and bred in this country who have never worked( lady near where we  live last worked 30 years ago)/seem to get council homes for their extended families with ease/have fancy cars(BMW's and the like despite being unemployed)...and usually responsible for any anti social trouble we get around here (making threats to neighbours/fighting amongst themselves/etc)...This country is in a mess.

[MaeJoMTB]

11 minutes ago, sirineou said:

 

As much as people might like to defend their decision to vote "leave" I can't see how, knowing what they know now, would not  change   some of their vote. Where the "stay" faction sees their decision justified.

 

I don't know anything new now, apart from no vote is final in the UK.

Been told plenty of propaganda by lefties though.

[nauseus]

12 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I am American with no skin on the game,and I think that brexit is a mistake, 

but there is a fault in your above logic.

Indeed a X number of old people have died since the referendum but equaL an X number of younger people also become old leaving the age demographics unchanged,

in fact with the decrease in fertility and the decrease in mortality  the trend is moving in the opposite direction with the age demographics are skewed more toward the population getting older.

 Of course you could argue  that those who were young and had a "stay" attitude now that are older will maintain their "stay" attitude,  a fair argument, and I might be inclined to agree.

The Old people of yesterday come from a different era than the old people of tomorrow and might have different opinions., 

IMO though demographics have a part to play, if a new referendum took place it will fail to produce a "leave" result simply because people are more educated on the subject  now.

As much as people might like to defend their decision to vote "leave" I can't see how, knowing what they know now, would not change change their  some of their vote. Where the "stay" faction sees their decision justified.

 Also since I am posting on the subject, IMO the EU would be better off without  British abstractionism in it's quest to move forward where the UK , IMO, will gain litle from leaving but lose a lot.. 

 The concept of the sovereign state as it exists today is a relatively new phenomenon in human history and  is evolving.

IMO regardless of where the "leave faction wants to go was a good place or not, the place simple  does not exist. Brexit is leading you out in the wild. 

 

All Hail for another educated remainist - don't forget to kneel!

[MaeJoMTB]

10 minutes ago, clashpie said:

Where I live we have Romanians and Polish folk who work (and work hard)/pay their taxes/and contribute to the country/community ...

Doesn't seem you live in Spain then, because they are all out of work now the Romanians will pick Spanish crops cheaper than Spanish people. Looks to me like civil war will be coming to Europe in the near future. The fuse is already alight in Sweden, Germany, Spain and France.

[sirineou]

2 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

I don't know anything new now, apart from no vote is final in the UK.

Been told plenty of propaganda by lefties though.

we all learn new things all the time, I certainly do, and I adjust my opinion accordingly. Nothing is written in stone except for people living in the stone age.

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

All Hail for another educated remainist - don't forget to kneel!

?

[Khun Han]

49 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

I didn't claim that, you are confusing me with someone else.  But I think the National Center for Social Research's survey is more honest, at least they are open about their sources and their result is very different indeed, 3/4 stating that they voted leave and are concerned with immigration.  The problem with asking people what their main concern was, as in the Ashcroft and your own idea, is that this makes people choose between what maybe two or three reasons they are voting for, they also may be inclined to choose a different choice than immigration first despite this being their prime reason for fear of appearing racist, better to ask them specifically if immigration was a concern if you are trying to find out how many were concerned by immigration.

 

You did claim that most of the leavers you know had immigration at the top of the list though. And you have to concede that immigration and accusations of racism are always at the top of remain's criticism of leavers. Immigration was also a concern of mine, just not the biggest one. Sovereignty was (please don't try to sidetrack the discussions with sovereignty semantics). Your last sentence is quite disingenuous.

[Khun Han]

13 minutes ago, sirineou said:

18 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

I don't know anything new now, apart from no vote is final in the UK.

Been told plenty of propaganda by lefties though.

we all learn new things all the time, I certainly do, and I adjust my opinion accordingly. Nothing is written in stone except for people living in the stone age.

17 minutes ago, nauseus said:

All Hail for another educated remainist - don't forget to kneel!

?

 

The 'educated remainist' is a forum running joke.

[nontabury]

7 minutes ago, clashpie said:

I wonder how many of my fellow UK citizens would have still voted on leaving Europe had they know the full facts of what leaving Europe meant?

Cameron has left this county in a state of limbo and a divided nation lead by a government who can't even sort out their own problems never mind a decent Brexit deal!

Yes we all know the immigration issue had to be tackled at some point but did we have to leave Europe to achieve this?

Talking to folk both young and old it would appear that there is a generation difference on Europe.

Young want to stay within Europe with all the benefits it entails for the future and older folk want to return to the 'good old days' of Britain standing on its own two feet and making sure our borders are firmly shut to all but a few.

Where I live we have Romanians and Polish folk who work (and work hard)/pay their taxes/and contribute to the country/community ....and then  I have neighbours born and bred in this country who have never worked( lady near where we  live last worked 30 years ago)/seem to get council homes for their extended families with ease/have fancy cars(BMW's and the like despite being unemployed)...and usually responsible for any anti social trouble we get around here (making threats to neighbours/fighting amongst themselves/etc)...This country is in a mess.

Cannot disagree with you that some  “native “ Brits have become too reliant on the state for their income, while many, but not all immigrants are hard workers. Though I do take issue when you try to separate the country by the generations.

This to me is one of the most despicable arguments from those poor loosers on the remain side. Especially when I know many young people who are very much for Brexit.

 

 

[nauseus]

1 minute ago, nontabury said:

Cannot disagree with you that some  “native “ Brits have become too reliant on the state for their income, while many, but not all immigrants are hard workers. Though I do take issue when you try to separate the country by the generations.

This to me is one of the most despicable arguments from those poor loosers on the remain side. Especially when I know many young people who are very much for Brexit.

 

 

Where's the yes button?

[nauseus]

59 minutes ago, taipeir said:

The company I worked for just hired two hundred IT people in Romania.

 

We have existing IT operations in the UK but I guessed on a combination of concerns around Brexit and cost savings and access to well educated multilingual staff that they have already switched all IT investment to Romania. Sad for UK but good for Romania.

 

By the way Romania is booming right now.

 

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Hardly surprising in this phase of free EU money.

[Laughing Gravy]

9 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

When I was 15, I went to an all-boys boarding school in Herts, north of London.  I sensed an unvoiced sadness among some of the elder teachers - a sort of empty space within their chests - lamenting the loss of empire.  Since the 1960's a whole lot of brown-skinned foreigners have taken up residence there.  The English are experiencing changes they're not happy with.  To choose Brexit seems like a knee jerk reaction.  

Unbelievable. What a statement. It was never because of the 1960s but the late 1990 and 2000s that caused the change in opinion of the EU. I can understand ignorance but stupidity is different.

[Dene16]

9 hours ago, Grouse said:

Always been madness. Better to stay and force change from within.

Was always the best option IF the changes within could of been made

If/by the time changes were made , the country would of been in a hell of a lot bigger crap than we are /would be in now

As much as i hate to say it i still think brexit was our only option due to a ridiculous deal, negotiated , that was not worth the paper it was printed on.

Now it is only the squabbling parties in their efforts to gain power who are continuing to pull the country down rather then fix it 

 

 

[MaeJoMTB]

5 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Unbelievable. What a statement. It was never because of the 1960s but the late 1990 and 2000s that caused the change in opinion of the EU. I can understand ignorance but stupidity is different.

 

You first extend the argument back to the Commonwealth immigration days, then you can claim we're all racists. It's a carefully calculated deflection.

[shanesox]

Then clearly you do not understand how the EU works [emoji6]

We do! Uk has no veto on EU policies now! It did in the past but That Europhile Mr Blair gave it up .. for nothing actually!


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[sirineou]

11 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

The 'educated remainist' is a forum running joke.

Thank you for that explanation

, as I said I am an American  and I don't follow this as closely as you all would, But I do stop to look. much in the way that most of as do as we pass a car wreck.

If indeed it's a joke it is IMO not very funny making the term "educate" a pejorative term and taken out of context with the intent to diminish and dismiss.

I don't appreciate being dismissed, what I do appreciate is, that if any of the points I made are wrong , to point out where ,and howk so that I can also be "educated"

I am sure that those who say "educated" mean on the subject.

I am sure we will all agree that Einstein  was a very well educated man but I am sure in some subjects not as much as others.  I am certainly very well educated in some and not so much in others, I suspect the same is true for most of as,

[Laughing Gravy]

1 minute ago, MaeJoMTB said:

 

You first extend the argument back to the Commonwealth immigration days, then you can claim we're racists.

So tell me where I have extended the argument about the commonwealth immigration days, Maybe you can see words I cant? So where have I have said we are racists. Look fella Ignorance is nothing to do about race. Read my posts please. I am a British patriot. I respect and even like my European friends. I understood the ECC trade agreement and it hasn't worked since the joining of the other 20 plus countries. In fact its not a trade agreement, it is a federalization. If you cant see that then we have nothing to discuss

 

[Laughing Gravy]

3 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

The UK belongs to Europe, does it? Interesting. I assume you have some historical evidence for this?

 Khun Han you are so right. I am surprised that Junker is a TV poster. Hilarious either way. Maybe other TV posters know best?

 

[Dene16]

9 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

I am not British, so my opinion doesn't really matter, but...

Very easy for someone from another country to give an opinion with only the economic side of the story to consider

Whether it be the UK or any other country (catalonia in spain a recent example) economic's are not the only consideration

I am sure many hold your same opinion but holds zero relevance to someone from the UK

 

[MaeJoMTB]

29 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

So tell me where I have extended the argument about the commonwealth immigration days, Maybe you can see words I cant? So where have I have said we are racists. Look fella Ignorance is nothing to do about race. Read my posts please. I am a British patriot. I respect and even like my European friends. I understood the ECC trade agreement and it hasn't worked since the joining of the other 20 plus countries. In fact its not a trade agreement, it is a federalization. If you cant see that then we have nothing to discuss

 

I  was explaining  why the poster you quoted extended the discussion back to the 60s.

Boomerangtun extends to 1960s,  Laughing Gravy says why 1960s, I explain why 1960s

But this forum doesn't do nested quotes any more, and your short term memory did't allow you to remember that.