Minimising sizing of aircon

[claynlr]

26-27....2-3....no....yes....no....6- 1M X 1.5M....3....15CM Q-CON (not sure the resistance) ...house...attic (foil backed gypsum,R-38 batt insulated 

[Naam]

8 minutes ago, claynlr said:

26-27....2-3....no....yes....no....6- 1M X 1.5M....3....15CM Q-CON (not sure the resistance) ...house...attic (foil backed gypsum,R-38 batt insulated 

shooting from the hip... 24k btu/h not too big but adequate if ambient temp not above 32ºC. if capital outlay is secondary i'd recommend two conventional units each 12/13k btu/h, alternatively a center mounted ceiling (cassette) inverter unit 36k btu/h (rather expensive ~THB 80k including installation!).

[claynlr]

Thanks Naam

[Crossy]

+1 on using two smaller units, better spread of cool air in a large space and the option of running only one unit during the cooler season.

 

[cheeryble]

7 hours ago, Crossy said:

+1 on using two smaller units, better spread of cool air in a large space and the option of running only one unit during the cooler season.

 

....or use one and call in a pair of pungawallahs as needed.

[cheeryble]

Anyone know about pipe sizing?

 

i.e.does a 12000btu use the same/different pipe size to the compressor as an18000 as a 24000?

(Thinking of an 18000 right now just nice to know options if inadequate which I doubt)

May as well know the 9000 too I might put one in the chalet bedroom.

 

i.e. if one ever needs to upsize does the pipe need changing?  

[Crossy]

Pipe sizes for various run lengths air A/C capacities should be in the installation manual.

 

There are various manuals online so you can compare and possibly fit the bigger pipe (if needed for 18-24k) from day one.

 

Or ask your A/C man.

 

 

[Naam]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

possibly fit the bigger pipe (if needed for 18-24k) from day one.

yes!

[Laza 45]

I've been considering installing a 9,000 BTU unit with an inverter in a room that doesn't need much to keep it cool.. quotes put Mitsubishi & Daikin around the 22,000 Bt mark... LG 13,500.. a big difference.. I've used other LG products and haven't had any problems.. any reason not to go with LG here??

 

[cheeryble]

23 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

I've been considering installing a 9,000 BTU unit with an inverter in a room that doesn't need much to keep it cool.. quotes put Mitsubishi & Daikin around the 22,000 Bt mark... LG 13,500.. a big difference.. I've used other LG products and haven't had any problems.. any reason not to go with LG here??

 

PM sent about price

Edited November 24, 2017 by cheeryble

[stevkob]

15 minutes ago, Laza 45 said:

I've been considering installing a 9,000 BTU unit with an inverter in a room that doesn't need much to keep it cool.. quotes put Mitsubishi & Daikin around the 22,000 Bt mark... LG 13,500.. a big difference.. I've used other LG products and haven't had any problems.. any reason not to go with LG here??

 

 

There is a good reason Mitsubishi Electric (not Mitsubishi Heavy Ind) and Daikin are priced at a premium level and that is because they are a high end product. Same way cars such as a Mercedes are priced higher than a Toyota, it is all to do with manufacturing, technical excellence and overall quality. I was a Sales Engineer for Daikin and other manufacturers and I can vouch for the above mentioned products.

 

Also, as for the heat load calculation for any room/s you can guesstimate or you can get a professional in to do it. Most domestic applications are guesstimates using general guides and averages. That is also why most A/C shops/suppliers quote seemingly slightly oversized machines because it is far better to give the customer a unit that will most  likely do the job than one that will struggle on hot days and then have irate customer complaints and possible legal actions.

 

There are so many incorrect and misleading comments in this thread that may encourage someone to make the wrong choice in their purchase. It really is confusing to customers because it is a technically heavy decision that has to be made. Buying cheap in this industry is just asking for trouble.

 

 

[cheeryble]

25 minutes ago, stevkob said:

 

There is a good reason Mitsubishi Electric (not Mitsubishi Heavy Ind) and Daikin are priced at a premium level and that is because they are a high end product. Same way cars such as a Mercedes are priced higher than a Toyota, it is all to do with manufacturing, technical excellence and overall quality. I was a Sales Engineer for Daikin and other manufacturers and I can vouch for the above mentioned products.

 

Also, as for the heat load calculation for any room/s you can guesstimate or you can get a professional in to do it. Most domestic applications are guesstimates using general guides and averages. That is also why most A/C shops/suppliers quote seemingly slightly oversized machines because it is far better to give the customer a unit that will most  likely do the job than one that will struggle on hot days and then have irate customer complaints and possible legal actions.

 

There are so many incorrect and misleading comments in this thread that may encourage someone to make the wrong choice in their purchase. It really is confusing to customers because it is a technically heavy decision that has to be made. Buying cheap in this industry is just asking for trouble.

 

 

 

Thanks for input Stev and I bow to you being a sales engineer but I take issue with a unit "struggling" on hot days.

I've nearly always used Daikin and their parts may or may not be better made (tho as for Mitsubishi I know of one right now making a noise after 18months) but any vaguely reputable brand is designed to run full force non stop for a long time, there should be no "struggle" it's within design criteria.

ps If you know the bearings are better made or whatever and life expectancy is longer would love to know that especially hard data.

Edited November 24, 2017 by cheeryble

[cheeryble]

i see the pipe sizes for Daikin jump after 12,000btu.....only a little so well worth oversizing pipes if in any doubt. In my present case the choice is between an 18kbtu......which i will choose.......and a 24kbtu and I see the pipes are the same so no problem and worth knowing.

 

ps I've been nearly shaking with cold in the cinema before now, and i remember going into a Thai home in which you could make your beer cold........I guess this is what the sizing is designed for. Worst of all was the bus to CR never go without a blanket.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by cheeryble

[Naam]

2 hours ago, cheeryble said:

 

Thanks for input Stev and I bow to you being a sales engineer but I take issue with a unit "struggling" on hot days.

I've nearly always used Daikin and their parts may or may not be better made (tho as for Mitsubishi I know of one right now making a noise after 18months) but any vaguely reputable brand is designed to run full force non stop for a long time, there should be no "struggle" it's within design criteria.

ps If you know the bearings are better made or whatever and life expectancy is longer would love to know that especially hard data.

11 years experience with 17 Daikin units installed in our home my judgment on fan bearings indoor units is 

 

and as far as the judgment "Daikin/Mitsubishi Mercedes" is concerned my comment is... yaaawnnn

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, stevkob said:

There is a good reason Mitsubishi Electric (not Mitsubishi Heavy Ind) and Daikin are priced at a premium level and that is because they are a high end product.

 

One of my neighbours recently replaced his old air-cons with Daikin ones. They came from a big store like HomePro. I was surprised by how cheap he said they were and when I went to the same shop and checked they were indeed no more expensive than other brands like Samsung etc.

 

Whether this indicated a general price drop, or whether they were some special cheap local model, I dont know.

[stevkob]

25 years in the A/C industry from technician to Sales Engineer and I can tell you the same as I would tell a member of my family,,,,, Only 2 brands I would recommend they put in their homes are Miti Elec and Daikin. But that is for the smaller domestic type machines such as wall splits, cassettes and multi splits etc. Ducted and commercial not inc.

Inverter is the way to go, maybe a little more expensive but worth it in the long run.

Pipe sizing is relative to the size of the machine and the length of the pipe run as well as any possible vertical routes. This should definitely be calculated by a pro. 

Life expectancy can be lengthened if the capacity is correct and the quality is high, also the installation has to be done to standards recommended by the manufacturer.

Someone mentioned the warranty provided by manufacturers, I believe these vary depending on the country they were installed in. Here it is 5years,,,, it is honored as long as the installation was done by qualified people and according to manufacturers requirements.

[stevkob]

13 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

One of my neighbours recently replaced his old air-cons with Daikin ones. They came from a big store like HomePro. I was surprised by how cheap he said they were and when I went to the same shop and checked they were indeed no more expensive than other brands like Samsung etc.

 

Whether this indicated a general price drop, or whether they were some special cheap local model, I dont know.

 

Sometimes the manufacturer has a glut of product such as experienced in cooler countries after a poor summer, then the excess stock is sold off cheaply. Other times they offer special pricing on certain models.... all standard marketing ploys. If you're lucky you can get good deals even with the so called expensive brands.

I know when a certain manufacturer was making their A/C's in SE Asia (other than Japan) the public perception of the product was lowered so they priced accordingly. This tactic is problematic as it can lower the brand reputation.

 

[The Fat Controller]

We had a good experience with Home Pro, they came to our property and measured the room sizes. 

For the larger room, we agreed on the size required but for the smaller room, they recommended one size down as being sufficient, no attempt to oversell.

We told them we were looking for inverter type and their recommendation was Daikin, which we purchased in the "hot season" sale, price included fitting and they did an excellent job.

 

[cheeryble]

10 hours ago, stevkob said:

 

Someone mentioned the warranty provided by manufacturers, I believe these vary depending on the country they were installed in. Here it is 5years,,,, it is honored as long as the installation was done by qualified people and according to manufacturers requirements.

 

AFAIK the 5 year is only on the compressor unit......except for Midea which we bought a pair of. they were very cheap but i read that they are a $20B company been making aircon for ages, bought a major German robotics company recently, and by policy spend 3% of their revenue on R and D. Add to that nice design and silent running and good fan and they had the balls to give a five year guarantee on both indoor and outdoor units and I had to give them a chance.

 

BTW Naam when i spoke of high quality bearings I think any company can obtain excellent bearings for the job cheaply......it's the attachments to the bearings and moving parts and swinging fan venting which tend to start creaking rattling and breaking.....I believe critters sometimes get into parts too.........one wouldn't think it was rocket science to get something to work well and long.

Edited November 24, 2017 by cheeryble

[Naam]

8 hours ago, cheeryble said:

BTW Naam when i spoke of high quality bearings I think any company can obtain excellent bearings for the job cheaply......it's the attachments to the bearings and moving parts and swinging fan venting which tend to start creaking rattling and breaking.....I believe critters sometimes get into parts too.........one wouldn't think it was rocket science to get something to work well and long.

i don't really care what causes the rattling. fact is that over the years i have replaced nearly half of the inside unit fans (Daikin). no problem with outside units though. in our German home (my brother is living there) the 4 National (Panasonic) units i installed in 1991 or '92 are working without any problems to this very day. as they are heat pumps they are not only used in summers but in the cool season too.

[Naam]

9 hours ago, cheeryble said:

Midea which we bought a pair of. they were very cheap

if you mention any Chinese company or product here be prepared to get flak from many sides, especially from people who didn't know that aircons existed till they bought one or two units when settling in Thailand. and after a year or two they claim they are eggsburts and give advice left and right even though they "run" their units sparingly because there's more cash for Chang left.

 

[Crossy]

8 hours ago, Naam said:

as they are heat pumps they are not only used in summers but in the cool season too.

I'm sorry Naam, I don't often have to correct you, but Germany does not have a "cool season", it has a 'kin cold season called "winter"

 

[Naam]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

8 hours ago, Naam said:

as they are heat pumps they are not only used in summers but in the cool season too.

I'm sorry Naam, I don't often have to correct you, but Germany does not have a "cool season", it has a 'kin cold season called "winter"

we call the cool season "Übergangszeit" (oct/nov and mar/apr) when using heatpumps is more efficient than burning oil or gas, i.e. when ambient temperatures are above +5ºC. 

[Crossy]

8 minutes ago, Naam said:

Übergangszeit

Mr Google says this means "Transitional period", a bit like Caitlyn Jenner had

 

[Naam]

Just now, Crossy said:

Mr Google says this means "Transitional period", a bit like Caitlyn Jenner had

i thought when it's cut it's cut and gone. or do they use salami tactics?

[cheeryble]

I have looked at the conversion online but it comes way too low and I didnt manage to work it out I won't even look it up just try here.

 

Here is the data plate for an old aircon which runs very well. Looks to me like one fifteenth HP

I would like to know it's BTU so i can estimate for replacing another older one in the same area  

 

ps looked up PCF 18 and it's a colonoscope 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by cheeryble

[Crossy]

@cheeryble Is that the indoor or outdoor unit?

 

1/15th HP is 50W, about what you would expect the indoor unit fan to be.

 

[Naam]

52 minutes ago, cheeryble said:

I have looked at the conversion online but it comes way too low and I didnt manage to work it out I won't even look it up just try here.

 

Here is the data plate for an old aircon which runs very well. Looks to me like one fifteenth HP

I would like to know it's BTU so i can estimate for replacing another older one in the same area  

 

ps looked up PCF 18 and it's a colonoscope 

 

 

a joke of yours? if these are data of a compressor its capacity wouldn't be enough to cool a doghouse.

[cheeryble]

6 minutes ago, Naam said:

a joke of yours? if these are data of a compressor its capacity wouldn't be enough to cool a doghouse.

No it's on the indoor unit. Couldn't see anything on the compressors but maybe I better get a small mirror and flashlight out....a bit difficult to see the ends except one.

Edited December 3, 2017 by cheeryble