Australian gold mining company takes legal action against Thailand

[Just Weird]

Just now, bazza73 said:

"Facts" are what the local authorities say they are. Whether that can be relied on as true is another question.

The smoking example was used to illustrate long-term damage to health can't be assessed short-term. So it is relevant.

If you can't understand what I'm saying, I won't waste my time further trying to educate you.

Until they are proven they remain unproven allegations, not facts, proffered in order to elicit money from the company.

 

The smoking example was irrelevant.

 

I understood every word of what you said, maybe you need to ensure that your comments are accurate before you express them.  You will not be able to educate me, don't flatter yourself.

[lvr181]

"What about the pollution and the health of the people in the neighborhood?"

 

Naughty Australian company. Never mind about all Thai made pollution! 

[farcanell]

45 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

there won't be any settlement, they are toast.

That’s ok, too... if unfair.... (we know a day in court in this country, doesn’t always give justice) but at least the rest of the world will get a sharp reality check on the dangers of doing business within the realm, with (hopefully) an international backlash that embarrasses the sitting pm potentate.

 

the people also need to see what may be an embarrassing international fiasco, harmful to them, play out on the world stage, which could galvanize their resolve to peacefully accept a democratically elected government.

 

its time.

[MadMuhammad]

7 hours ago, Eric Loh said:

I do care about the health of the people but don;t you think the government would have close the mine if sufficient evidence point to that and 44 will not be needed? 

And that is the kicker. There was no investigation done and no concrete evidence found.  Article 44 was invoked in a knee jerk reaction 

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, Srikcir said:

There is no judicial system involved, no appeal if either party to a deal made under the ATFTA disagrees to the Arbitral Tribunal decision. The compliance tribunal’s award is final and binding on the Parties.

See ATFTA and specifically Articles 1804-1811.

http://www.wipo.int/edocs/lexdocs/treaties/en/au-th/trt_au_th.pdf

If the Thai government doesn't agree ( as a hypothetical scenario) to an adverse decision in Kingsgate's favor, I suppose Prayut's only recourse is to renege on the entire free trade agreement and attempt to renegotiate. However, that decision won't negate any award to Kingsgate and may have far reaching economic consequences regarding any other similarly structured free trade agreements.

 

Good link... a long read, though

 

significantly, for those who choose not to read it ( lol... wholly understandable)... the tribunal is required to follow the rules of the United Nations trades laws.

 

not Thailand’s or Australia’s... this could get very interesting, and I’d hate to be the defendant

 

srikcir second paragraph seems to grab the situation by the nutsack.

[Sir Dude]

Just another Carlsberg/Pepsi job.....nothing new here, move along.

[MadMuhammad]

1 hour ago, Mark mark said:

It happend to me also, with another Company that I had some of, in Indonesia also, some time ago now. Different Reasons, same principle, the foreign company Invested, and then the Mine was just about working, the Local Crooks (Top level Indon and Malay Companies in this case, and well, Way WAY worse at this sort of thing than the Comparatively More Honest Thais ? ... If you ask me ... ) .... Just took it off of them. ...  and "A Sallami Kum" ...

 

I have been waiting to see then take back the Chatree mine for a while now, like it always was on the cards as far as I could see !!! Good on you who Bought KSL is it (Kings Gate) shares, before the Caught Case was announced, .... but as a lot of the Obviously Smart people on here would be Implying, ... I would sell them all now ???

Kingsgate also has a profitable, low cost per ounce gold mine in Chile that has an approximate 11 year operational life so there is still a lot of upside to this stock. 

I got in @ 13c as a purely speculative gamble. Although I have a substantial exposure it’s still only 1% of my total portfolio. 

[farcanell]

28 minutes ago, MadMuhammad said:

And that is the kicker. There was no investigation done and no concrete evidence found.  Article 44 was invoked in a knee jerk reaction 

I think your in a good position re shares

 

knee jerk reactions are prohibited by the free trade agreement (harmonious communication to resolve issues etc etc)... as is nationalization of the mine.

 

dumping the whole agreement could be disastrous for Thailand.

 

IMHO.... delaying till there is a new government in place, is the generals best option of avoiding a national disaster. (And loss of personal faeces)

[Elkski]

Cyanide leaching is not allowed or used everywhere.   The assumption you can use a earthen vessel and not have leaks is so stupid.  Rubber lined out will always have leaks it overflow in rainy locals.    It's a cheap ass way to recover gold and not good for the environment only shareholder value.  I'm sure there was very minimal test data taken.   This will be interesting lawsuit to follow.   Let the chips fall as they may.  

[GOLDBUGGY]

9 hours ago, Cadbury said:

Maybe not but there is sure to be a lot of International adverse publicity which won't help Thailand's foreign investment and trade objectives. Kingsgate will make sure the business world knows what goes on in Thailand under the rule of the military and PM Prayut with his famed Article 44. 

Arbitration is not a Toothless Tiger! They will present there case in front of a World Court. If they win the courts have power to collect this claim.

 

For example, and not just limited to this, they can freeze any assets Thailand holds Overseas, and collect from that. Venezuela has been forced to pay up on several occasions.

 

However these Arbitrations cost a lot of money and time and take several years to settle. So it is better if they can settle out of court or in some cases walk away.  

[observer90210]

Strange that a mining copany ignored the... golden rule....never invest more in Thailand then what you can afford to loose ! 

[Srikcir]

11 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

So it is better if they can settle out of court or in some cases walk away.

No.

There is no out of court settlement option apart from the Reconciliation process specified under the trade agreement - which Thailand has already attempted and failed. The issue now goes to binding arbitration.

The only court involvement might be confiscation of Thai assets  by Kingsgate to satisfy a potential compensation award as a result of a binding Arbitrator Tribunal decision.

As I mentioned earlier in this topic, if the AT renders an unfavorable decision in favor of Kingsgate, Prayut might chose to breach the entire A-T free trade agreement that might include other projects in Thailand. Such a breach would not bode well for future free trade agreements with Thailand.

The only better for Thailand now is to try to minimize the award of compensation to Kingsgate before the Arbitrator Tribunal by reaching an agreement ASAP.

[Srikcir]

5 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

Strange that a mining copany ignored the... golden rule....never invest more in Thailand then what you can afford to loose ! 

I don't think Kingsgate intends to lose anything which may explain why their stock price has risen substantially.

[the guest]

I think Australia has a better chance of finding a Kangaroo in Thailand, than winning a case against the Government.

[GOLDBUGGY]

32 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

No.

There is no out of court settlement option apart from the Reconciliation process specified under the trade agreement - which Thailand has already attempted and failed. The issue now goes to binding arbitration.

The only court involvement might be confiscation of Thai assets  by Kingsgate to satisfy a potential compensation award as a result of a binding Arbitrator Tribunal decision.

As I mentioned earlier in this topic, if the AT renders an unfavorable decision in favor of Kingsgate, Prayut might chose to breach the entire A-T free trade agreement that might include other projects in Thailand. Such a breach would not bode well for future free trade agreements with Thailand.

The only better for Thailand now is to try to minimize the award of compensation to Kingsgate before the Arbitrator Tribunal by reaching an agreement ASAP.

Of course the Plaintiff can back out at any time with Arbitration. They haven't had there first day in court or even a first court date set yet.

 

As far as you saying that an out of court settlement is not possible, than how can you say later that it is better for Thailand to try and minimize the award of compensation by reaching an agreement ASAP? Would this not be an out of court settlement, if they did this?

[GOLDBUGGY]

2 hours ago, Elkski said:

Cyanide leaching is not allowed or used everywhere.   The assumption you can use a earthen vessel and not have leaks is so stupid.  Rubber lined out will always have leaks it overflow in rainy locals.    It's a cheap ass way to recover gold and not good for the environment only shareholder value.  I'm sure there was very minimal test data taken.   This will be interesting lawsuit to follow.   Let the chips fall as they may.  

But in here lies the problem of having Government Permits.

 

The last one to be issued to a Mining Company before they can start mining is the Environmental Permit, which is a detailed feasibility study that covers all these aspects you mention here. Once this permit is issued, which I am sure it has been for here, and if the company stays within these set limits, there is not much they can do about that later.

[Cadbury]

1 hour ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

However these Arbitrations cost a lot of money and time and take several years to settle. So it is better if they can settle out of court or in some cases walk away.  

Agree with what you say but as for Thailand walking away Prayut Chan-o-cha has too much military pride for that and he would worry that he might look a fool.

 

[Srikcir]

22 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

the Plaintiff can back out at any time with Arbitration.

No the Plaintiff cannot back out.

If the two sides cannot reach voluntary reconciliation (which they haven't), arbitration is the only recourse according to the Australian-Thailand Free Trade Agreement. Thailand can of course refuse to participate in arbitration but the Arbitrators (likely 2 for and 1 against) will find 100% for Kingsgate. That cannot be appealed or litigated, ie., in a Thai court.

27 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

They haven't had there first day in court or even a first court date set yet.

That's because litigation in court is not an option. Recourse is specified in the trade agreement: voluntary reconciliation and arbitration. Any attempt by Thailand to sue Kingsgate in court will have no legal standing.

[Cadbury]

5 hours ago, scotchonrocks said:

As was earlier stated, this will impact on the kingdom's investment rating and if article 44 is used, it will scupper Thailand's chances of maintaining a good sovereign risk reputation.

Thailand has never had a good sovereign risk reputation. After the publicity surrounding this case world business headlines will now make their reputation look like manure. Well justified due to a leader who is so insecure he now almost waves his Article 44 just to buy a bus ticket and sleeps with it under his pillow. 

[MadMuhammad]

1 hour ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Arbitration is not a Toothless Tiger! They will present there case in front of a World Court. If they win the courts have power to collect this claim.

 

For example, and not just limited to this, they can freeze any assets Thailand holds Overseas, and collect from that. Venezuela has been forced to pay up on several occasions.

 

However these Arbitrations cost a lot of money and time and take several years to settle. So it is better if they can settle out of court or in some cases walk away.  

It has been stated by Kingsgate that it would require $40milAUD and anywhere up to 12 months to restart the mine. They have put this to the Thai government to cover some (or all) of these costs as part of an agreement to avoid legal action. This was denied. Hence this course of action. 

 

This is arbitration has been on the boil since early this year so I’m guessing Kingsgate have done the checks and balances and see a positive return on their outlay to continue. 

 

 

 

 

[GOLDBUGGY]

7 minutes ago, Cadbury said:

Agree with what you say but as for Thailand walking away Prayut Chan-o-cha has too much military pride for that and he would worry that he might look a fool.

 

I was making reference to the Plaintiff, who is bringing this to court, as the one who could walk away. Thailand can't walk away from this. The Gold Mine is here, and they already closed that in January. The most they can do is give it back and re-open it, or go to Arbitration and defend there case, if there is one.

 

The courts first have to decide if there is a case worthy of going to Arbitration. If they do then they next step is to have to hear both sides to this case. From that they later form there judgment. I won't second guess if Thailand would pay up if they lost, but I would think they would.

 

You are not just looking at one Gold Mine here. You are looking at all possible future investment here. Nobody is going to want to invest money in a country when there investment can be taken away for any reason, and not receive compensation for that.

 

I like to look at Venezuela under Hugo Chavez. He took away all undeveloped Gold Mines there and many of the Oil Companies as well. Many took Venezuela to Arbitration, while many other larger companies, like Exxon, just walked away from the new deal. By doing this Chavez was able to add a lot of extra money into his Piggy Bank right away, but by doing so he also cut his own throat for future investment.

 

Since that time Oil Production has dropped off yearly, as well as the Oil Price. It is not like they ran out of Oil, as they still have plenty. But nobody wants to invest in future development there, and who can blame them? Huge Gold Mines with great potential, now all sit idle, or producing at a fraction of what they could produce.

 

Venezuela lost Arbitration Cases but doesn't have the money to pay up. I lost count of all the fighting in the streets and protests, since then. Fighting for basic needs, like medicine. Which the government used to buy and offer at a highly reduced rate, but now can't as they don't have the money anymore, of even credit.

 

So what may seem like a good idea, and a get rich quick scheme, does not always work out in your favor. I wonder if Venezuela will ever climb out of this deep dark hole?

[Srikcir]

1 hour ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

how can you say later that it is better for Thailand to try and minimize the award of compensation by reaching an agreement ASAP?

I am referring to reaching an agreement in arbitration. I thought I made clear in previous comments that arbitration is required by the trade agreement once reconciliation fails.

 

Time is money and the longer the Kingsgate complaint is in arbitration, the more compensation it will likely demand. Prayut should not allow the issue to drag out but reach an agreement ASAP.

 

Given that it appears that Prayut did not rely on any scientific evidence supporting the allegation that Kingsgate violated its operating agreement, there seems little chance that Thailand can mitigate the Tribunal's potential award to Kingsgate - maybe challenge some of its lost revenues and shutdown costs.

 

 

[Srikcir]

36 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

The courts first have to decide if there is a case worthy of going to Arbitration.

No. Neither the Thai or Australian courts have authority over the trade agreement to decide whether arbitration is worthy. Arbitration is mandatory and binding under the trade agreement and Thailand is a signatory to that effect.

 

It is for this reason and others that some nations refuse free trade agreements because of their concern of abrogating their sovereignty - their laws and judicial system - to an independent 3rd party, especially without right to appeal.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Srikcir
delete "no"

[Media1]

14 hours ago, rkidlad said:

Good! Time this government understood that article 44 is only as strong as the people are weak. Can't pull this kinda s**** with foreign entities. They will bite. 

Cowboys without hat's that can't tide horses. Soon to be taught a lesson 

[Media1]

13 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Since when have Junta cared for the health of the people?

Yes your right. There just acting as pirates that smell money. Come invest in Thailand so we can steal from you lol

[Media1]

14 hours ago, rkidlad said:

Good! Time this government understood that article 44 is only as strong as the people are weak. Can't pull this kinda s**** with foreign entities. They will bite. 

44 is non existing across the oceans of Law. 

[Media1]

14 hours ago, hangdonger said:

They wont get anywhere with this, even if they think the law is on their side

Rubbish are you Thai

[Media1]

14 hours ago, midas said:

Yet another example of Thailand manipulating a commercial situation and totally disregarding previously established legal commitments. It's just a further illustration of why one would have to be crazy to want to do business in this country-particularly under military junta.

I rest my case court adjourned 

[farcanell]

6 hours ago, the guest said:

I think Australia has a better chance of finding a Kangaroo in Thailand, than winning a case against the Government.

There is an f of big One at a servo on highway 41, somewhere around chumpon, I think

[wakeupplease]

Well done Kingsgate now push it all the way as this was an attempt to take a business that the locals simply did not have the know how to do away from a Farang company and give it to a Thai company (in waiting) after they stole your know how. Just goes to show you cannot trust the top yellows or J boys and should never contemplate putting a business here unless you are Japanese who they still fear as the west seems to keep letting them get away with rip offs where the Japanese do not.