Criticism

[amdy2206]

Just out of interest, do any Thais ever criticise - or is it a Western thing? Westerns, myself included, tend to find things that happen here often ridiculous, often stupid, and regularly unbelievable. We will usually react, but do Thai people feel the same way, or do they just accept what happens?

If some of these things happened overseas, there would be an uproar, but here - nothing. This is not a critism of Thais, but an interesting topic which would be good to have info on.

[observer90210]

Of course they criticise !!...once they are in jail under the strict libel laws and other to-sensitive-to-mention-in-public, laws !!!

[1FinickyOne]

Most Thai that I know would feel it rude to criticize especially a guest or stranger. This does not mean that they would not be judgmental of someone acting poorly, though they might not voice it. 

 

The closer the relationship, it seems, the more likely they are to be critical. Eg. My wife would never be critical of you speaking Thai incorrectly, whereas if I pronounce something incorrectly, she might let it go, or she might critically correct me... possibly depending upon her mood. 

[Bang Bang]

2 hours ago, amdy2206 said:

Westerns, myself included, tend to find things that happen here often ridiculous, often stupid, and regularly unbelievable.

You answered your own question there. From your point of view  they don't make sense, while from a Thai's they might make perfect.

 

See it from the other side. Thais in the US they might think our gun laws to be incredibly stupid as our obsession with abortion. However, a lot of Americans might not agree and say what they do is right and those who don't agree (including Thais and other danged foreigners) can go suck on a rock.

[JLCrab]

10 hours ago, kenk24 said:

Most Thai that I know would feel it rude to criticize especially a guest or stranger. This does not mean that they would not be judgmental of someone acting poorly, though they might not voice it. 

<snip<>

Yes -- but since Thai are much more intuitive than people give them credit for, they might not say anything to you but they might say among themselves:

You know that two-four guy is a real a%^^*hole.

[Been there done that]

1 hour ago, JLCrab said:

Yes -- but since Thai are much more intuitive than people give them credit for, they might not say anything to you but they might say among themselves:

You know that two-four guy is a real a%^^*hole.

Dont mix up conditioned by the word intuitive. 

 

 

[JLCrab]

Well Thai folk may be intuitive about a ham sandwich, but there aren't enough ham sandwiches around for them to be conditioned about it.

[OneMoreFarang]

I would also love to hear a solution to this problem. I just had a technician from my condominium in my bathroom because a water pipe in the ceiling is leaking. What did he do? He puts some resin on the place where the water drips down at the underside of the water pipe. He does not even check if the water leaks at that place. A few minutes later the water is dripping from the resin which is now the lowest point. And what does he do: He puts more resin in the same place. F%#($% re ridiculous!

I suggest to him politely that maybe the leak is above the point where the water drips and the water flows down and then drips at the lowest point. He does not understand the concept.

I am sure he won't make it better if I tell him he is an idiot. But I would really like to get that water leak fixed.

If anybody knows how to criticize people without criticizing them please let me know...

[Minnehaha]

7 hours ago, JLCrab said:

Yes -- but since Thai are much more intuitive than people give them credit for, they might not say anything to you but they might say among themselves:

You know that two-four guy is a real a%^^*hole.

True dat

[Time Traveller]

Yes Criticism is only a Western thing. No Thai person in history has ever made a criticism of anyone or anything. Not one. Ever. Also, never have any non-western people either.  

Next (stupid) question ?

Edited November 13, 2017 by Time Traveller

[OneMoreFarang]

2 minutes ago, Time Traveller said:

Yes Criticism is only a Western thing. No Thai person in history has ever made a criticism of anyone or anything. Not one. Ever. Also, never have any non-western people either.  

Next (stupid) question ?

@Time Traveller you are a Platinum Member and I would have thought that makes you a Thailand expert, or at least not ignorant. Do you really think Thais criticize each other like foreigners criticize each other and foreigners criticize Thais?

I.e. when I go to restaurants with Thais I saw it many times that they didn't like the food and that something was really wrong (like half raw chicken). Did the Thai visitors tell the staff and criticize the chef? No! If the waiter ask them they even say the food was good. Many foreigners would complain if they get raw chicken served and they definitely wouldn't pretend it was all good.

Sure, there are always exceptions and not all Thais are the same and not all foreigners are the same. But I think we can agree that few Thais criticize each other.

[Toscano]

Many foreign men married to Thai women will tell you they are subjected to constant criticism .  Try to defend yourself and you are accused of starting an argument .  Many of us try to be too kind and gentle with these women , they need a strong partner to keep them in line , make them understand who's boss .  

[Time Traveller]

37 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

@Time Traveller you are a Platinum Member and I would have thought that makes you a Thailand expert, or at least not ignorant. Do you really think Thais criticize each other like foreigners criticize each other and foreigners criticize Thais?

I.e. when I go to restaurants with Thais I saw it many times that they didn't like the food and that something was really wrong (like half raw chicken). Did the Thai visitors tell the staff and criticize the chef? No! If the waiter ask them they even say the food was good. Many foreigners would complain if they get raw chicken served and they definitely wouldn't pretend it was all good.

Sure, there are always exceptions and not all Thais are the same and not all foreigners are the same. But I think we can agree that few Thais criticize each other.

The question was framed as if a human trait was specific to one race of people. It's sad when people still have these stereotypical ideas that <insert racial group> is some how more cuturally/intellectually/socially superior to another group. 

 

Spend enough time around Thai people and you'll lose your rose colored glasses, they will indeed send the raw chicken back to the kitchen.....Haven't you read any history about thailand,? Protests, riots, coups, violence.....conflict does exist in Thai society and yes it sometimes is confrontational.

 

And no I'm no Thailand expert, only a Thailand realist.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Time Traveller

[Juan B Tong]

Your not married ?

[OneMoreFarang]

15 minutes ago, Time Traveller said:

The question was framed as if a human trait was specific to one race of people. It's sad when people still have these stereotypical ideas that <insert racial group> is some how more cuturally/intellectually/socially superior to another group. 

At least for me this is not about who is superior. People of different groups/nationalities are often different. That does not mean one group is better that the other.

Imagine someone would record the behavior of 10 random Thai people and 10 random western people (lets say Americans) for a couple of days and would they would give you this information. Do you think after reading how they behaved you would be able to say for each person if they are more likely Thais or Americans?

[robsamui]

I think most of the people replying here - and the original poster - need to clarify the concept of 'criticism' in their minds. There are two sorts: positive and negative.

 

Post #3 - the Thai wife who "critically corrects" her husband's use of the Thai language is a positive criticism, an attempt to help, and this is certainly not what the OP is on about.

 

Then there is a further complication - Thais complaining or showing disapproval of Thais, and Thais complaining or showing disapproval of farangs (or vice versa). For a Thai, to complain or object publicly about something to another Thai (unless close family) is considered low class and is losing face. Yes - again and again I have seen the 'half-raw chicken' scenario of post #11 play out. And it has always been the same - the suffering Thai diners will say nothing. But they will never return to that restaurant again, even if it's the only place to eat in town.

 

On the other hand, long experience of living here has shown me that Thais universally cannot tolerate farangs who make even the most positive and constructive suggestions for improvement, and freely offer their time and expertise. I live on Koh Samui and time and time again over the last 12 or 13 years farang community groups or companies have offered technical help or assistance to address the horrific garbage problem and repair the defunct incinerator (one example; there are numerous others) and been politely and totally ignored at local government level - the loss of face thing again.

 

But getting down to it - and reading between the lines of the OP's opening comment - there is a completely different aspect here, and one which other posters are muddling into the mix. The idea of complaining (as in the half-cooked chicken again).

 

Socially and politically, in groups and en masse, yes, Thai people will march and protest to complain about a common cause . . . but never, ever, on a one-to-one basis, as in a restaurant for instance. And, similarly, they really don't know how to react when someone complains about them or to them - there seems to be no social protocol for this situation.

 

My work takes me out into the hotels and restaurants on Samui. And managers have consistently said the same thing: when training Thai staff they have to give ongoing and repeated instructions and training about what to do when a guest or customer complains. The instinctive Thai reaction is embarrassment and loss of face, followed by panic and an overwhelming urge to go away and hide somewhere until the problem goes away (also instanced frequently in banks when staff are put on the spot!)

 

But in a quality hotel or restaurant, this simply cannot be allowed to happen - the staff have to be de-programmed over a long period of time and trained away from their (Thai) social conditioning, and taught a whole new way of responding (positively and proactively) in line with  Western thinking and expectations.

 

The answer to amdy2206 and his original post? It is confrontation that upsets most Thai people. It might be in the form of an accusation, a negative criticism, or it might be a complaint. But it is socially to be avoided. They don't like to do it themselves, and hate it when it happens to them.

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by robsamui

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, robsamui said:

My work takes me out into the hotels and restaurants on Samui. And managers have consistently said the same thing: when training Thai staff they have to give ongoing and repeated instructions and training about what to do when a guest or customer complains. The instinctive Thai reaction is embarrassment and loss of face, followed by panic and an overwhelming urge to go away and hide somewhere until the problem goes away (also instanced frequently in banks when staff are put on the spot!)

 

But in a quality hotel or restaurant, this simply cannot be allowed to happen - the staff have to be de-programmed over a long period of time and trained away from their (Thai) social conditioning, and taught a whole new way of responding (positively and proactively) in line with  Western thinking and expectations.

Good comment!

 

I go from time to time to 5 star hotel restaurants. And in some of these places it seems the staff is trained to say something like: "Thank you for your comment" and maybe some personal words if they know the guest(s). I think that is a good answer. It shows the guest that they listen and are interested to hear any comment. But at the same time they don't make any commitments that they will change this or that. I think that's fair enough because often the waiter or even restaurant manager don't make all the decisions.

[BudRight]

Thais criticize stuff all the time. They just don't like when YOU do it, so they tell you its rude. Really there are pretty different expectations of westerner vs Thai social behavior. 

[Bangkok Barry]

1 hour ago, robsamui said:

The instinctive Thai reaction is embarrassment and loss of face, followed by panic and an overwhelming urge to go away and hide somewhere until the problem goes away (also instanced frequently in banks when staff are put on the spot!)

........

The answer to amdy2206 and his original post? It is confrontation that upsets most Thai people. It might be in the form of an accusation, a negative criticism, or it might be a complaint. But it is socially to be avoided. They don't like to do it themselves, and hate it when it happens to them.

 

 

It appears to be an Asian thing, perhaps, although more extreme in Thailand. I say that because I went to an Aussie-themed restaurant in Hong Kong many years ago and ordered some chicken wings. After a long wait and with no sign of my food or the waitress I asked another member of staff where my order was. He went to check and they had run out of wings. Rather than tell me, the waitress had gone into hiding. That was my first experience of loss of face.

Basically, they act as a five-year old would in the West. They appear not to be taught to take responsibility (how very true that is in Thailand, about anything, ever). Most five year olds in the West soon learn to face up to a problem and deal with it. They learn the self-confidence to do so. But that doesn't appear to be the case in Thailand, where they bury their head in the sand and just pretend the problem doesn't exist.

 

Show a Thai they are wrong about anything and they will totally blank you, look through you as if you don't exist, because they have never been taught that it is okay to accept failure. And more importantly, to learn from it.

Edited November 13, 2017 by Bangkok Barry

[JRUSA]

3 hours ago, Toscano said:

Many foreign men married to Thai women will tell you they are subjected to constant criticism .  Try to defend yourself and you are accused of starting an argument .  Many of us try to be too kind and gentle with these women , they need a strong partner to keep them in line , make them understand who's boss .  

Of course, we all know who the boss is...

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, robsamui said:

I think most of the people replying here - and the original poster - need to clarify the concept of 'criticism' in their minds. There are two sorts: positive and negative.

 

Post #3 - the Thai wife who "critically corrects" her husband's use of the Thai language is a positive criticism, an attempt to help, and this is certainly not what the OP is on about.

 

Then there is a further complication - Thais complaining or showing disapproval of Thais, and Thais complaining or showing disapproval of farangs (or vice versa). For a Thai, to complain or object publicly about something to another Thai (unless close family) is considered low class and is losing face. Yes - again and again I have seen the 'half-raw chicken' scenario of post #11 play out. And it has always been the same - the suffering Thai diners will say nothing. But they will never return to that restaurant again, even if it's the only place to eat in town.

 

On the other hand, long experience of living here has shown me that Thais universally cannot tolerate farangs who make even the most positive and constructive suggestions for improvement, and freely offer their time and expertise. I live on Koh Samui and time and time again over the last 12 or 13 years farang community groups or companies have offered technical help or assistance to address the horrific garbage problem and repair the defunct incinerator (one example; there are numerous others) and been politely and totally ignored at local government level - the loss of face thing again.

 

But getting down to it - and reading between the lines of the OP's opening comment - there is a completely different aspect here, and one which other posters are muddling into the mix. The idea of complaining (as in the half-cooked chicken again).

 

Socially and politically, in groups and en masse, yes, Thai people will march and protest to complain about a common cause . . . but never, ever, on a one-to-one basis, as in a restaurant for instance. And, similarly, they really don't know how to react when someone complains about them or to them - there seems to be no social protocol for this situation.

 

My work takes me out into the hotels and restaurants on Samui. And managers have consistently said the same thing: when training Thai staff they have to give ongoing and repeated instructions and training about what to do when a guest or customer complains. The instinctive Thai reaction is embarrassment and loss of face, followed by panic and an overwhelming urge to go away and hide somewhere until the problem goes away (also instanced frequently in banks when staff are put on the spot!)

 

But in a quality hotel or restaurant, this simply cannot be allowed to happen - the staff have to be de-programmed over a long period of time and trained away from their (Thai) social conditioning, and taught a whole new way of responding (positively and proactively) in line with  Western thinking and expectations.

 

The answer to amdy2206 and his original post? It is confrontation that upsets most Thai people. It might be in the form of an accusation, a negative criticism, or it might be a complaint. But it is socially to be avoided. They don't like to do it themselves, and hate it when it happens to them.

 

Very good observation I think, especially the loss of face which is a major issue.

 

Even asking a question, such as asking for directions, is difficult for many Thais because it shows that the one asking doesn't know something...and admitting not knowing something is a major case of losing face.

 

As you describe, I remember having employees, with university diploma, staying seated facing the wall because they were stuck with a problem they could not solve, and would never dare to admit it, either to me or to their Thai colleagues.

 

When one tries to explain something to a Thai, especially if one is a farang, his or her first reaction is often to cut one after just a few words and to say "lu leou" (I know that already), even though he or she has no idea of what one is going to talk about.

 

As you say, there are different kinds of criticisms...rather than positive or negative, I would say constructive or dismissive.

 

Helping with technical problems in Koh Samui is constructive, while saying that German food is better than Thai food is a critic that deserves to be dismissed and greeted with the local mantra "go back...".

 

Having said that, Westerners are certainly much more adept at criticizing than East and South East Asian people, and that plays in favor of the former.

 

Because, besides the petty criticisims, criticizing in general plays a major role in the process of innovating...and just look where the innovations come from, and where the copies come from!

 

[bazza73]

Criticism is part of Western culture - we are taught to think analytically, and question. Thais are taught to conform.

[HooHaa]

3 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

@Time Traveller you are a Platinum Member and I would have thought that makes you a Thailand expert, or at least not ignorant. Do you really think Thais criticize each other like foreigners criticize each other and foreigners criticize Thais?

I.e. when I go to restaurants with Thais I saw it many times that they didn't like the food and that something was really wrong (like half raw chicken). Did the Thai visitors tell the staff and criticize the chef? No! If the waiter ask them they even say the food was good. Many foreigners would complain if they get raw chicken served and they definitely wouldn't pretend it was all good.

Sure, there are always exceptions and not all Thais are the same and not all foreigners are the same. But I think we can agree that few Thais criticize each other.

 

actually,  some of the biggest asshats on here have the most posts.

 

quantity is not necessarily quality

[madusa]

19 hours ago, Bang Bang said:

You answered your own question there. From your point of view  they don't make sense, while from a Thai's they might make perfect.

 

See it from the other side. Thais in the US they might think our gun laws to be incredibly stupid as our obsession with abortion. However, a lot of Americans might not agree and say what they do is right and those who don't agree (including Thais and other danged foreigners) can go suck on a rock.

Bang Bang, what is "go suck on a rock" I never heard this saying before. Suck on a rock? what could it mean? To get some mineral from the rock? Like animals do.

[NanLaew]

5 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I would also love to hear a solution to this problem. I just had a technician from my condominium in my bathroom because a water pipe in the ceiling is leaking. What did he do? He puts some resin on the place where the water drips down at the underside of the water pipe. He does not even check if the water leaks at that place. A few minutes later the water is dripping from the resin which is now the lowest point. And what does he do: He puts more resin in the same place. F%#($% re ridiculous!

I suggest to him politely that maybe the leak is above the point where the water drips and the water flows down and then drips at the lowest point. He does not understand the concept.

I am sure he won't make it better if I tell him he is an idiot. But I would really like to get that water leak fixed.

If anybody knows how to criticize people without criticizing them please let me know...

You don't need to master the art of subtle nuance and hidden critique, you just need a plumber.

 

(and not a technician)

[aussie11950]

2 hours ago, robsamui said:

I think most of the people replying here - and the original poster - need to clarify the concept of 'criticism' in their minds. There are two sorts: positive and negative.

 

Post #3 - the Thai wife who "critically corrects" her husband's use of the Thai language is a positive criticism, an attempt to help, and this is certainly not what the OP is on about.

 

Then there is a further complication - Thais complaining or showing disapproval of Thais, and Thais complaining or showing disapproval of farangs (or vice versa). For a Thai, to complain or object publicly about something to another Thai (unless close family) is considered low class and is losing face. Yes - again and again I have seen the 'half-raw chicken' scenario of post #11 play out. And it has always been the same - the suffering Thai diners will say nothing. But they will never return to that restaurant again, even if it's the only place to eat in town.

 

On the other hand, long experience of living here has shown me that Thais universally cannot tolerate farangs who make even the most positive and constructive suggestions for improvement, and freely offer their time and expertise. I live on Koh Samui and time and time again over the last 12 or 13 years farang community groups or companies have offered technical help or assistance to address the horrific garbage problem and repair the defunct incinerator (one example; there are numerous others) and been politely and totally ignored at local government level - the loss of face thing again.

 

But getting down to it - and reading between the lines of the OP's opening comment - there is a completely different aspect here, and one which other posters are muddling into the mix. The idea of complaining (as in the half-cooked chicken again).

 

Socially and politically, in groups and en masse, yes, Thai people will march and protest to complain about a common cause . . . but never, ever, on a one-to-one basis, as in a restaurant for instance. And, similarly, they really don't know how to react when someone complains about them or to them - there seems to be no social protocol for this situation.

 

My work takes me out into the hotels and restaurants on Samui. And managers have consistently said the same thing: when training Thai staff they have to give ongoing and repeated instructions and training about what to do when a guest or customer complains. The instinctive Thai reaction is embarrassment and loss of face, followed by panic and an overwhelming urge to go away and hide somewhere until the problem goes away (also instanced frequently in banks when staff are put on the spot!)

 

But in a quality hotel or restaurant, this simply cannot be allowed to happen - the staff have to be de-programmed over a long period of time and trained away from their (Thai) social conditioning, and taught a whole new way of responding (positively and proactively) in line with  Western thinking and expectations.

 

The answer to amdy2206 and his original post? It is confrontation that upsets most Thai people. It might be in the form of an accusation, a negative criticism, or it might be a complaint. But it is socially to be avoided. They don't like to do it themselves, and hate it when it happens to them.

 

Very true.

Thai's like to gossip about other people, because they wont say things direct to someones face.

Gossip will eventually get to the person intended.

They will lie rather than lose face or have confrontation.

Thats why no one improves the hygiene here, thats why no one complains, beeps their horn or flashes their light to bad drivers, like other countries do.

Thais are just too polite because of face.

So many shops sell food with bad hygiene and bad drivers think they are doing no bad because no one complains and no police to catch them.

Dont get me wrong, I love Thailand, but when I see something wrong, I will sometimes politely complain.

 

 

 

 

[robsamui]

1 hour ago, bazza73 said:

Criticism is part of Western culture - we are taught to think analytically, and question. Thais are taught to conform.

Indeed - it is a punishable offence to question the statements of a teacher in a Thai school.

[robsamui]

2 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

 

It appears to be an Asian thing, perhaps, although more extreme in Thailand. I say that because I went to an Aussie-themed restaurant in Hong Kong many years ago and ordered some chicken wings. After a long wait and with no sign of my food or the waitress I asked another member of staff where my order was. He went to check and they had run out of wings. Rather than tell me, the waitress had gone into hiding. That was my first experience of loss of face.

Basically, they act as a five-year old would in the West. They appear not to be taught to take responsibility (how very true that is in Thailand, about anything, ever). Most five year olds in the West soon learn to face up to a problem and deal with it. They learn the self-confidence to do so. But that doesn't appear to be the case in Thailand, where they bury their head in the sand and just pretend the problem doesn't exist.

 

Show a Thai they are wrong about anything and they will totally blank you, look through you as if you don't exist, because they have never been taught that it is okay to accept failure. And more importantly, to learn from it.

Absolutely!

 

Quite a few times now I've ordered food in a Thai restaurant, only to be served a different dish. When I had the (sheer and distressing effrontery) to question this, the reply was "Oh, the duck (etc etc) finished now" - too much of a loss of face simply for them to say "err . . . sorry but . . .  "

Five year-olds? Nah, be real! At one time I taught for a  few years in a primary school (5 - 11 years) in England. I would say (after years of careful observation!) that most Thais are stuck somewhere between the (western) equivalent of between 11 and 14 (and with the associated hormonal adolescent problems). On the one hand they can be enchantingly and happily child-like - and that's absolutely their attraction; publicly and in social situations they're just such good fun. But watch 11 year-olds on a school playground or at an end-of-year leavers' dance anywhere in the western world, and then take a look at a Thai wedding party to see the similarities - including the sudden pouts and sulks and outbursts of uncontrollable anger (plus also the astonishing ability to get shouting fall-down drunk on two small bottles of beer . . . ) ;-)

 

One problem is that they are deliberately educated to have no creativity, imagination, initiative or curiosity - but that's another huge and different story - and it goes hand-in-hand with concepts such as responsibility (I believe there is no direct word for this in the Thai language, the same way there is no word for 'no') or the idea of  actions and consequences.

 

In many years of living in Thailand I have only ever been apologised to three times by Thai people (for their mistakes) - and these were Thais who had spent long periods of time in the west!

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by robsamui

[robsamui]

3 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Very good observation I think, especially the loss of face which is a major issue.

 

Even asking a question, such as asking for directions, is difficult for many Thais because it shows that the one asking doesn't know something...and admitting not knowing something is a major case of losing face.

 

How many times have I taken a taxi from way down the end of Sukhumvit into the centre of BKK (20 km) only to find the driver going round aimlessly in circles, half way there? Usually I recognised the 'I'm lost and don't know where to go but I can't lose face ' syndrome and just told the guy to stop, then took another taxi.

Once or twice I got annoyed and told the guy to stop near some other parked taxis, crossed over to them and asked one of the other taxis drivers to shout across and tell my driver where to go (and the other taxi driver just loved it!)

 

They can't admit to not knowing something. Fine. But when it comes to major decisions at government level, its a whole different bag of bananas. But exactly the same thing happens there, too, unfortunately - it crops up every day in the news in one form or another, much to the huge amusement of international observers.

Edited November 13, 2017 by robsamui

[XBroker]

7 hours ago, OneMoreFarang said:

 

If anybody knows how to criticize people without criticizing them please let me know...

 

Not paying your rent is one way.

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by XBroker