About to start building - best way to keep my investment safe

[baneko]

I am about to start building a property for my wife and myself. Its on a piece of land I bought a couple of years ago. The land is in my wifes name.

 

How can I cover myself if my wife and I split up? I wouldnt want to walk away from a house and land with nothing in return.

 

It sounds a bit harsh but I have seen how things can go wrong from friends.

 

Thanks

 

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[happylarry]

In the case of divorce so long as you get good legal representation then the assets are always split 50/50.

You both need to make a will with your requirements upon death, presuming you will both leave the property to each other.

Apart from this get your wife to issue a usufruct to you which allows you to occupy the property for life no matter who legally owns the property until you cancel it at the land office.

Hope this helps.

HL

[Peterw42]

Lots of threads on this subject if you search usufruct, ongoing rights of occupancy, usage etc (can be cancelled after divorce). Also most of the Thai legal company websites have information.

Unless covered by a prenup, false information to land office etc, land owned by your wife remains her personal property in divorce.

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/division-divorce-marital-home.html

 

In a nutshell, you can inherit the land (for immediate resale) if your wife dies, you can protect your ongoing access and use of the land (can be cancelled after divorce), not much chance of the land being considered a common marital asset and you get half.

 

In hindsight a usufruct prior to marriage or a prenup would be ideal.

[Peterw42]

3 minutes ago, happylarry said:

In the case of divorce so long as you get good legal representation then the assets are always split 50/50.

You both need to make a will with your requirements upon death, presuming you will both leave the property to each other.

Apart from this get your wife to issue a usufruct to you which allows you to occupy the property for life no matter who legally owns the property until you cancel it at the land office.

Hope this helps.

HL

Isn't it the case that a usufruct (contract between husband and wife) made during marriage, can be cancelled after marriage ? Also, any land owned by a Thai, married to a foreigner, is automatically a personal asset in divorce ?

[baneko]

Lots of threads on this subject if you search usufruct, ongoing rights of occupancy, usage etc (can be cancelled after divorce). Also most of the Thai legal company websites have information.
Unless covered by a prenup, false information to land office etc, land owned by your wife remains her personal property in divorce.
 
https://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/division-divorce-marital-home.html
 
In a nutshell, you can inherit the land (for immediate resale) if your wife dies, you can protect your ongoing access and use of the land (can be cancelled after divorce), not much chance of the land being considered a common marital asset and you get half.
 
In hindsight a usufruct prior to marriage or a prenup would be ideal.

I am already married so the prenup is a no go. An usufruct will only allow me to stay in the property on the land?

What if we divorced is there a way to get the house and land sold going 50/50 say?

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[Destiny1990]

I think what u want is impossible.

[baneko]

I think what u want is impossible.

You may be right although I have a friend from Songkla.

His wife went off the rails so they divorced. He went to court regarding their house.

She said the house was hers and the judge asked her where she got the money. Obviously she could not supply an answer. The property was sold 50/50.

Maybe he just got lucky.

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[Destiny1990]

9 minutes ago, baneko said:

 

You may be right although I have a friend from Songkla.

His wife went off the rails so they divorced. He went to court regarding their house.

She said the house was hers and the judge asked her where she got the money. Obviously she could not supply an answer. The property was sold 50/50.

Maybe he just got lucky.

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Probably u friend lost all his money but lied to u about it because also farangs not like to loose face. So I don't trust stories from ur so-called friends. Better look at the law.

[baneko]

Probably u friend lost all his money but lied to u about it because also farangs not like to loose face. So I don't trust stories from ur so-called friends. Better look at the law.

You may be correct again....anyway back to the topic please!

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[trogers]

56 minutes ago, Destiny1990 said:

I think what u want is impossible.

A house on wheels is the way to go...

[happylarry]

People that lose all their assets in a divorce have not done their homework regarding getting a good lawyer to protect their rights.

Unless there are extenuating circumstances in the divorce then all assets accrued during the marriage are shared 50/50 and this applies to farangs as well.

Of course if one party cannot sell the property or does not wish to and fails to pay the other party their share then its a return to court and the court will order the property to be auctioned off and the proceeds split.

The courts are very fair to all parties and the breakdown is when a lawyer either is incompetent or does not want to represent his client as he should be and thus does not put across the clients wishes and needs.

Its so important to get a good lawyer but also a professional interpreter as well. Many people make the mistake of looking for a lawyer that speaks a bit of English, mistake! When in court the lawyer will be too busy to sit on your shoulder all the time telling you what every person is saying. You need to be aware of all that is going on and this is what your interpreter will be doing at all times. Also when it is your turn to address the court your interpreter is your mouthpiece and needs to be aware of what you want to say and have the confidence to put it accross exactly as you require. So when it comes to finding a good lawyer, dont be put off if they dont speak good English, its what they say to the court that you should be interested in, not which language they use.

My wife is a freelance interpreter, and she and the lawyer she works with a lot, get many clients coming to them after being let down by other lawyers. The nightmare stories that we all read about are unfortunately  mostly true but its always because they did not do their homework when getting their representation.

In the case of divorce the wife can ask for the usufruct to be cancelled, but only in that circumstance.

HL

 

[baneko]

People that lose all their assets in a divorce have not done their homework regarding getting a good lawyer to protect their rights.
Unless there are extenuating circumstances in the divorce then all assets accrued during the marriage are shared 50/50 and this applies to farangs as well.
Of course if one party cannot sell the property or does not wish to and fails to pay the other party their share then its a return to court and the court will order the property to be auctioned off and the proceeds split.
The courts are very fair to all parties and the breakdown is when a lawyer either is incompetent or does not want to represent his client as he should be and thus does not put across the clients wishes and needs.
Its so important to get a good lawyer but also a professional interpreter as well. Many people make the mistake of looking for a lawyer that speaks a bit of English, mistake! When in court the lawyer will be too busy to sit on your shoulder all the time telling you what every person is saying. You need to be aware of all that is going on and this is what your interpreter will be doing at all times. Also when it is your turn to address the court your interpreter is your mouthpiece and needs to be aware of what you want to say and have the confidence to put it accross exactly as you require. So when it comes to finding a good lawyer, dont be put off if they dont speak good English, its what they say to the court that you should be interested in, not which language they use.
My wife is a freelance interpreter, and she and the lawyer she works with a lot, get many clients coming to them after being let down by other lawyers. The nightmare stories that we all read about are unfortunately  mostly true but its always because they did not do their homework when getting their representation.
In the case of divorce the wife can ask for the usufruct to be cancelled, but only in that circumstance.
HL
 

Great post. So it seems we do have rights here. Good legal representation is very important. I take it the house should be in joint names?

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[Destiny1990]

28 minutes ago, happylarry said:

People that lose all their assets in a divorce have not done their homework regarding getting a good lawyer to protect their rights.

Unless there are extenuating circumstances in the divorce then all assets accrued during the marriage are shared 50/50 and this applies to farangs as well.

Of course if one party cannot sell the property or does not wish to and fails to pay the other party their share then its a return to court and the court will order the property to be auctioned off and the proceeds split.

The courts are very fair to all parties and the breakdown is when a lawyer either is incompetent or does not want to represent his client as he should be and thus does not put across the clients wishes and needs.

Its so important to get a good lawyer but also a professional interpreter as well. Many people make the mistake of looking for a lawyer that speaks a bit of English, mistake! When in court the lawyer will be too busy to sit on your shoulder all the time telling you what every person is saying. You need to be aware of all that is going on and this is what your interpreter will be doing at all times. Also when it is your turn to address the court your interpreter is your mouthpiece and needs to be aware of what you want to say and have the confidence to put it accross exactly as you require. So when it comes to finding a good lawyer, dont be put off if they dont speak good English, its what they say to the court that you should be interested in, not which language they use.

My wife is a freelance interpreter, and she and the lawyer she works with a lot, get many clients coming to them after being let down by other lawyers. The nightmare stories that we all read about are unfortunately  mostly true but its always because they did not do their homework when getting their representation.

In the case of divorce the wife can ask for the usufruct to be cancelled, but only in that circumstance.

HL

 

Hilarious post..u be years in court spending big money plane rides new plane rides  new court date cases..ur usufruct cancelled and u signed docus the property bought with only her money. Ur court case is weak even with 5 translators. Best thing  is to beg u ex for some fair solution and some will give that to u they not so heartless as u maybe think.

Edited November 19, 2017 by Destiny1990

[Peterw42]

1 hour ago, happylarry said:

Unless there are extenuating circumstances in the divorce then all assets accrued during the marriage are shared 50/50 and this applies to farangs as well.

Not sure why you are quoting misleading and incorrect information. Land owned by a Thai in a Thai-farang marriage "is not " a maritial asset and is not split 50/50 at divorce. when the land is purchased during marrige, it becomes a personal asset of the Thai person, not a maritial asset.

 

As it is prohibited for foreign nationals to own land in Thailand it has long been illegal for a Thai national married to a foreigner to acquire land because through matrimonial property laws the foreign spouse would obtain foreign ownership in land as property of husband and wife. It is only since a Ministry of Interior regulation dated March 23 1999 that it is allowed "for a Thai national married to a foreigner to purchase land but the land must become a non-marital or separate personal property of the Thai spouse".

 

Its in black and white on every Thai legal company website.

 

https://www.samuiforsale.com/family-law/division-divorce-marital-home.html

 

Note that before when a Thai women married a foreigner she lost the right to buy or own land in Thailand. This law was changed in March 23, 1999 which allowed a Thai woman to own land again while married to a foreigner. Note that in a divorce the property as stated above which you will have to confirm at the Land Department yourself is personal property and not common property so that you have no claim to the land during a divorce. Many as stated above register a 30 year usufruct over the property in the event that their wife might die and they would have to leave the property. Speak to your attorney about this.

 

http://www.bangkokattorney.com/thai-married-to-a-foreigner-land-ownership.html

 

Edited November 19, 2017 by Peterw42

[happylarry]

I am quoting what actually happens in divorce courts. Divorce courts do not take any notice of the land registry etc. They purely look at the assets of the couple and how they should divide them. And it makes no difference whatsoever whether it is in the wifes name its just the date that it was aquired and if that is during the marriage then it is counted as assets.

It is not me that is misquoting here and if you wish to read up on the law then look up the divorce court laws.

 I admit I am not into researching books but I am educated by my wife who works in divorce courts on a weekly basis and has been for a number of years now and knows what she is talking about from experience.

[baneko]

Hilarious post..u be years in court spending big money plane rides new plane rides  new court date cases..ur usufruct cancelled and u signed docus the property bought with only her money. Ur court case is weak even with 5 translators. Best thing  is to beg u ex for some fair solution and some will give that to u they not so heartless as u maybe think.

Might be worth it!

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[baansgr]

Where is the house being built, if its near her  family would you really want to stay there after divorce so usufruct is of no use. It would give you some hold over her selling but why would she sell if its in her hometown 

In theory you should be entitled to at least 50% but unless your wife agrees you will be looking at a lengthy court case costing hundreds of thousands. 

The saying of only afford what you can loose really stands when buying land and house in Thailand 

 

[1FinickyOne]

Depending upon the where of it - resale can be very difficult. Thai do not like to buy 2nd hand, and houses genuinely depreciate in value here. What does appreciate is the land, but you will lose some of that as you are putting a house on it... 

 

for me, building in my wife's village, I knew beforehand that it was a gift - fortunately, I have had enough years of living here that it has paid off and my wife will have it forever. 

[baneko]

Depending upon the where of it - resale can be very difficult. Thai do not like to buy 2nd hand, and houses genuinely depreciate in value here. What does appreciate is the land, but you will lose some of that as you are putting a house on it... 
 
for me, building in my wife's village, I knew beforehand that it was a gift - fortunately, I have had enough years of living here that it has paid off and my wife will have it forever. 

Yes its a tricky situation. If you get 15/20 years out of it then it has paid off. We have currently been together for 11yrs so things are very stable.

I bought the 2 rai in Chonburi around 4yrs ago. Next to the road in a quiet village and 1hr from the airport. I wonder if its gone up in price. Paid 1 million baht.

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[baneko]

Where is the house being built, if its near her  family would you really want to stay there after divorce so usufruct is of no use. It would give you some hold over her selling but why would she sell if its in her hometown 
In theory you should be entitled to at least 50% but unless your wife agrees you will be looking at a lengthy court case costing hundreds of thousands. 
The saying of only afford what you can loose really stands when buying land and house in Thailand 
 

I probably would stay there if she died but if there was a divorce definately not.

I have also thought the way you do regarding put in what you can afford to loose. Being a Scotsman I dont like to loose anything....haha.

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[Foozool]

I always think the worst case (usually happens) scenario. Thai take 100%, farang 0% (specially land ownership). This is a safe possibility that you should always consider regarding a divorce. 

 

Sleep with peace of mind. 

Cheers 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Foozool

[baansgr]

1 minute ago, baneko said:

 

 

I probably would stay there if she died but if there was a divorce definately not.

I have also thought the way you do regarding put in what you can afford to loose. Being a Scotsman I dont like to loose anything....haha.

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A few guys i know have attached a smalll mortgage to the property, again, no way ti enforce getting yiur 50%  back. Look at it this way, if you save rent for 10 or more years and have had the benefits of living im your 'own' home, you havnt really lost too much and could even say you actually had your 50 % worth. Im all for owning rather than renting as rent is wasted money in my view. Weugh up the situation and good kuck with what you decide 

[PerkinsCuthbert]

Well, what a lot of cheerful bunnies this happy Monday morning. 

 

As for my solution - stop the building work, sell the land, rent a house on a long lease and see how much your wife loves you then.

[sead]

The problem as i wrote before is that there would be very little chance anyone want to buy your house. As soon as a divorce is on its way. The whole family will move in and make your life an hell so forget about usufruct etc. You can buy land as a company but asking her to sell or transfer maybe sensitive. Theres more problems in all this than benefits but dont put money in this if its all you have. I think you can put the land in your childrens name if you have any.

Please just take this info light as i only have knowledge from friends.

As a last resort you can always burn down your house and car if it shows that all goes her way upon a divorce. 

Edited November 20, 2017 by sead

[baansgr]

Just now, sead said:

The problem as i wrote before is that there would be very little chance anyone want to buy your house. As soon as a divorce is on its way. The whole family will move in and make your life an hell so forget about usufruct etc. You can buy land as a company but asking her to sell or transfer maybe sensitive. Theres more problems in all this than benefits but dont put money in this if its all you have. I think you can put the land in your childrens name if you have any.

Please just take this info light as i only have knowledge from friends.

Childs name is of no use. The mother as Gaurdian will still have free access to the property and it cant be sold. 

There really isnt anyway surefire way. 

[1FinickyOne]

1 hour ago, baneko said:

 

 

Yes its a tricky situation. If you get 15/20 years out of it then it has paid off. We have currently been together for 11yrs so things are very stable.

I bought the 2 rai in Chonburi around 4yrs ago. Next to the road in a quiet village and 1hr from the airport. I wonder if its gone up in price. Paid 1 million baht.

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The sound guess is yes, land in Chonburi has gone up... We have been buying farmland - again, nothing that will be sold in my lifetime but a gift to the family. I would say that land has been going up on average 15% per year... and sometimes more. 

 

A friend built on land in Phuket - he did much of the work himself on the house and it was beautiful. He might have had a 20% increase over cost, not much more and the land, which he sold off in pieces probably tripled in value... 

 

If you are close enough to the Pattaya market, it should have some resale value.. 

 

And just a personal observation - the few people I have seen who thought they could do all sorts of manipulations against their investment in property ended up with nothing, other than a threat by the wife's family, though a couple of them deserved it... but at the time, they thought they were so smart, telling me to do this or that. My wife and her family are nice people - I will never feel badly about providing for them, even if we split. 

 

It is important to note that I have never put more on the table than I was prepared to lose. 

[JayBird]

Perhaps a bit of lateral thinking.

 

Cover yourself by minimizing your exposure:

 

1) Invest a small amount that you are willing to walk away from.

2) Take out a mortgage in her name that you pay over the next 30 or 50 years, thus placing a dependence on you. If divorced, you no longer give her the money to pay of the mortgage.

3) Construct a Thai company and place the property and house in company name.

4) Purchase a Mobile home in your name that can be easily moved. Can use excuse that you like the prefab design and quality. And always keep note of a plot you can rent and move mobile home to overnight if needed.

5) Offset loss by accepting payments from her to cover other expenses so that over time those payments cover cost of house. If she works have her contribute to insurance plan that pays out investment after 30 years for example (in your name)

[1FinickyOne]

2 hours ago, baneko said:

 

 

I probably would stay there if she died but if there was a divorce definately not.

I have also thought the way you do regarding put in what you can afford to loose. Being a Scotsman I dont like to loose anything....haha.

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Think charitable giving - not loss. 

[jippytum]

Before you started building you should have taken an usufruct agreement at the land office .This protects the holders  right to the land in perpetuity for life. You can legally own the house but not the land .Also it is possible to lease the house and land back to yourself for a period of thirty years ++.

You obviously have certain  worries and the legal aspect may be difficult to obtain as it requires  your wife's agreement however this  should really be sorted legally for your protection  before you start building .If it is not possible now it certainly won't be possible when you have spent your savings on the building and everything belongs legally to your wife .

[Morch]

Not an expert by any means, just communicating a case I know of.

 

Foreigner husband, married to a Thai wife, built a house on land registered/owned by wife (funds provided by foreigner, but with the statement renouncing claim etc.). House built with funds provided by foreigner, registered in wife's name as well.

 

Things went well for years, then wife hits menopause and goes a bit bonkers. Marriage deteriorated, until (with Thai family's support - they were quite cool and fair throughout) a divorce was agreed upon. Wife then flips and decides to keep the lot - land, house, car etc.

 

Court acknowledged her rights by law, then pretty much ruled on assets being split anyway. At this point, had it not been for the wife's (or rather, ex-wife's) family being alright, the ruling could have been difficult to carry out. As it were, ex-wife was "managed", though it did take a while to sell the property (a couple of years: as far as I understand initial time frame given is 1 year, but can be extended).

 

The couple did not have kids, and the land/house were not located near family's property. Foreigner's demeanor during the proceedings was polite and reserved, while wife threw tantrums and was even tossed out at one point.

 

Doubt this is representative of how things work out, but it may illustrate that circumstances may effect outcome.