High-speed railway between China and Thailand to be used for cargo, not passengers?

[webfact]

High-speed railway between China and Thailand to be used for cargo, not passengers?

BY ALEX LINDER 

 

Image: shanghailist

 

The oft-delayed high-speed railway project between China and Thailand continues to find new ways of disappointing us.

 

Earlier this week, Thailand finally approved an environmental impact assessment of the highly-anticipated rail line, removing the last remaining legal hurdle to getting tracks laid on the ground. Chinese media announced that work on the project's first phase would finally get underway on December 21st.

 

However, some in the Thai government are now reportedly pushing for the railway to be used for cargo. Sigh.

 

Full Story: http://shanghaiist.com/2017/12/07/china-thailand-railway-cargo-only.php

 

-- shanghailist 2017-12-08 

[overherebc]

I was looking forward to this.

[worgeordie]

Could it not be used for both cargo and passengers,or 

have cargo and passenger trains,that would be the best

solution.

regards worgeordie

[overherebc]

4 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

Could it not be used for both cargo and passengers,or 

have cargo and passenger trains,that would be the best

solution.

regards worgeordie

Make it like China and just treat the passengers like cargo.

[darksidedog]

Thailand should be less concerned about its own people using the line and more about millions upon millions of bad mannered Chinese tourists invading the place. Plus, carrying cargo only will dramatically reduce the death toll when it crashes, as it probably will.

Edited December 8, 2017 by darksidedog

[tonray]

Fill it with 'zero dollar' tour groups with an all you can eat Shrimp Buffet and post the videos on Youtube, that way at least we'll get some entertainment if not a ride.

[Dave67]

Here we go I posted on many occasions that you cannot have High speed with Freight running on the same Railway

[mikebell]

What happens to rails during the rainy season?  Don't they sink and shed trains?

[Dave67]

13 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

Could it not be used for both cargo and passengers,or 

have cargo and passenger trains,that would be the best

solution.

regards worgeordie

Due the weight axel load and wheel profile of freight trains they are not compatible with High speed railway tracks, moderate speed 180kph is feasible but rail wear will be far more than passenger only

[worgeordie]

1 minute ago, Dave67 said:

Due the weight axel load and wheel profile of freight trains they are not compatible with High speed railway tracks, moderate speed 180kph is feasible but rail wear will be far more than passenger only

You learn something new on TVF everyday,

regards Worgeordie

[Dave67]

Just reading the article in full, highly likely it the railway was going to be freight only from the first concept. The high speed passenger train nonsense was just used to sell it to the public when in fact it will only benefit companies to ship goods from China to Thailand and back

Edited December 8, 2017 by Dave67

[Dave67]

2 minutes ago, worgeordie said:

You learn something new on TVF everyday,

regards Worgeordie

In the words of Trump Its my Jaab (Job)

[mfd101]

You might think that, in a well-planned project, someone might have considered the PURPOSE of the project - "What are we trying to achieve here?" - BEFORE they proceeded to allocate funds, sign contracts etc ...

Edited December 8, 2017 by mfd101

[nong38]

5 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

Due the weight axel load and wheel profile of freight trains they are not compatible with High speed railway tracks, moderate speed 180kph is feasible but rail wear will be far more than passenger only

Spot on Dave and I suspect the Thais don't realize this, freight is where the money is and the Chinese idea must be to get the products across land quicker than by sea for some of the journey, I cannot see Chinese and Thai passengers wanting to use this route when they can fly between the countries. This is going to be a freight line.

[Dave67]

2 minutes ago, mfd101 said:

You might think that, in a well-planned project, someone might have considered the PURPOSE of the project - "What are we trying to achieve here? - BEFORE they proceeded to allocate funds, sign contracts etc ...

Was Bullshit from the start you cannot suddenly change about such a huge project

[jaywalker]

20 minutes ago, darksidedog said:

Thailand should be less concerned about its own people using the line and more about millions upon millions of bad mannered Chinese tourists invading the place. Plus, carrying cargo only will dramatically reduce the death toll when it crashes, as it probably will.

Unless the cargo is explosive or toxic.

[ratcatcher]

Anybody that knows anything basic about railways and how they work will realize that the writers of this stuff have no idea.

No rail-road/way in the world transports freight/cargo/goods on "HST". Not in  N.America, Europe, Asia, or Australia.

The Chinese have already operated a through freight train from Yiwu to London with 40 containers with a drop off in Germany.. (Wow!!!)  

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38654176

If the railroad is properly constructed, as the Chinese seem to be able to do, then freight (mostly containerized in 40' cans, ), can be moved from China down to Thai ports at suitably fast speeds. Certainly not at 300kp/h or more. The bullet trains planned for Thailand at the moment are someone's wet dream.

China                                                                   United States

[Ricardo]

This shouldn't be news to any reader of the many recent threads here on ThaiVisa.

 

It's why we've been calling it 'the medium-speed mainly-freight railway', for some years now, despite all the pretty pictures of various politicians with Tomy passenger-trains !

 

Thai politicians, like Chinese ones, need to sell the idea of the investment to their tax-payers.  It's not that it doesn't make long-term sense, just that passenger-trains are more voter-friendly than freight-trains, regardless of the economics of the whole thing  ...  which remain somewhat murky as-yet.

 

Incidentally the Beeb say that China's been lending to Nigeria, for the upgrade of their railway-system, at 1.5% interest-rates, although the construction is reportedly by Chinese companies.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42172955

[YetAnother]

1 hour ago, webfact said:

some in the Thai government are now reportedly pushing for the railway to be used for cargo.

the best choice; one of the mistakes the USA made was to shift cargo away from trains toward trucks;

as another poster noted, why not both ? can't be that hard...

[Dave67]

21 minutes ago, Ricardo said:

This shouldn't be news to any reader of the many recent threads here on ThaiVisa.

 

It's why we've been calling it 'the medium-speed mainly-freight railway', for some years now, despite all the pretty pictures of various politicians with Tomy passenger-trains !

 

Thai politicians, like Chinese ones, need to sell the idea of the investment to their tax-payers.  It's not that it doesn't make long-term sense, just that passenger-trains are more voter-friendly than freight-trains, regardless of the economics of the whole thing  ...  which remain somewhat murky as-yet.

 

Incidentally the Beeb say that China's been lending to Nigeria, for the upgrade of their railway-system, at 1.5% interest-rates, although the construction is reportedly by Chinese companies.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42172955

Yep the Chinese in Africa have an assurance of debt re- payment by using Africa's Gold and Diamond diamond resources in case of default. Sounds familiar with the Goldmine taken back from the Aussie company with a section 44 for " Local health reasons". Probably more like a default if Thailand does not pay back the debt to China

Edited December 8, 2017 by Dave67

[Dave67]

1 minute ago, YetAnother said:

the best choice; one of the mistakes the USA made was to shift cargo away from trains toward trucks;

as another poster noted, why not both ? can't be that hard...

Medium speed 180k is feasible for both passenger and freight, High speed is not

[Bob12345]

Interesting comments here; there is clearly more knowledge on TVF than at the newspaper reporting on this.

 

As Thailand i would be afraid of the economics. Thailand pays for (part of) this railway meaning they need to make a return. Maybe they recoup some costs by using it for local transportation (get stuff from bkk to korat and further north) but the bulk of income must come from freight train coming from china.

 

The problem is clear; they only have one customer. If china has to pay more fees they just load it on a container ship in china and forget about the railway. Thailand will have some difficult negotiations coming up decades from now when they invested billions and only have 1 customer with deep pockets.

[British Bulldog]

Does anybody know if this is the same system that will link with the current Hi Speed railway being built in Laos, or does the Thai rail system tap into China in Northern Thailand .... anybody got a map ?

 

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Here we go I posted on many occasions that you cannot have High speed with Freight running on the same Railway

Who is to say they won't have two sets of tracks?

Anyway, passengers are always loss makers on the railways requiring high levels of subsidy by taxpayers, so it depends on the "real" reason to build a high speed railway, which we are not privy to.

Is it actually to move Thai passengers around Thailand, or is it to provide fast transit for Chinese goods to/ from Singapore or a Malaysian port? The railway through Malaya has already been completed for high speed trains. If they start developing Butterworth port we may know the answer.

[thaibeachlovers]

13 minutes ago, British Bulldog said:

Does anybody know if this is the same system that will link with the current Hi Speed railway being built in Laos, or does the Thai rail system tap into China in Northern Thailand .... anybody got a map ?

 

Thailand does not have a land border with China. I think you now know the answer.

[thaibeachlovers]

36 minutes ago, Bob12345 said:

Interesting comments here; there is clearly more knowledge on TVF than at the newspaper reporting on this.

 

As Thailand i would be afraid of the economics. Thailand pays for (part of) this railway meaning they need to make a return. Maybe they recoup some costs by using it for local transportation (get stuff from bkk to korat and further north) but the bulk of income must come from freight train coming from china.

 

The problem is clear; they only have one customer. If china has to pay more fees they just load it on a container ship in china and forget about the railway. Thailand will have some difficult negotiations coming up decades from now when they invested billions and only have 1 customer with deep pockets.

The economics for a high speed passenger train do not, IMO, work in LOS. Unlike Europe, most Thais will not be able to afford the ticket, unless highly susidised.

[thaibeachlovers]

5 hours ago, ratcatcher said:

Anybody that knows anything basic about railways and how they work will realize that the writers of this stuff have no idea.

No rail-road/way in the world transports freight/cargo/goods on "HST". Not in  N.America, Europe, Asia, or Australia.

The Chinese have already operated a through freight train from Yiwu to London with 40 containers with a drop off in Germany.. (Wow!!!)  

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38654176

If the railroad is properly constructed, as the Chinese seem to be able to do, then freight (mostly containerized in 40' cans, ), can be moved from China down to Thai ports at suitably fast speeds. Certainly not at 300kp/h or more. The bullet trains planned for Thailand at the moment are someone's wet dream.

China                                                                   United States

You could very well be correct. Thailand does not have a two track system capable of handling high volumes of freight at fast speeds. This could just be a Trojan horse to build a decent freight system, and then quietly forget the passenger trains.

[ratcatcher]

21 minutes ago, British Bulldog said:

Does anybody know if this is the same system that will link with the current Hi Speed railway being built in Laos, or does the Thai rail system tap into China in Northern Thailand .... anybody got a map ?

 

Like many things here, nothing is ever as it seems. Some of this is really in the works and moving along.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?=laos+railway+with+china&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Uzyq7pbHd0YZUM%3A%2CGAeSRelaUjIwKM%2C_&usg=__aYjb_Qb4u9e4W0KkQxO27TxR8IA%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirlb7t8vnXAhUV5o8KHc0nBvoQ9QEITzAJ#imgdii=Otjir6_Ix7qxBM:&imgrc=XObtHMHFAKpxlM:

https://laotiantimes.com/2017/02/20/everything-you-need-to-know-laos-china-railway/

[Dave67]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Who is to say they won't have two sets of tracks?

Anyway, passengers are always loss makers on the railways requiring high levels of subsidy by taxpayers, so it depends on the "real" reason to build a high speed railway, which we are not privy to.

Is it actually to move Thai passengers around Thailand, or is it to provide fast transit for Chinese goods to/ from Singapore or a Malaysian port? The railway through Malaya has already been completed for high speed trains. If they start developing Butterworth port we may know the answer.

Two different sets of Track, 2 Railways? Don't think so. 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, ratcatcher said:

Like many things here, nothing is ever as it seems. Some of this is really in the works and moving along.

 

https://www.google.co.uk/search?=laos+railway+with+china&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=Uzyq7pbHd0YZUM%3A%2CGAeSRelaUjIwKM%2C_&usg=__aYjb_Qb4u9e4W0KkQxO27TxR8IA%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirlb7t8vnXAhUV5o8KHc0nBvoQ9QEITzAJ#imgdii=Otjir6_Ix7qxBM:&imgrc=XObtHMHFAKpxlM:

https://laotiantimes.com/2017/02/20/everything-you-need-to-know-laos-china-railway/

Just a wild guess, but IMO only the line to Nong Kai will be laid, and it won't terminate in BKK, perhaps at Si Racha port, but more likely at the Thai/ Malaysian border, connecting with the railway in Malaya.