Bought 12 Cows have limited knowledge

[thoongfoned]

cobbler, buying some cows in the near future? looks like a good set up they have there.... 

 

[thoongfoned]

39 minutes ago, New Cowboy said:

Hi Thoongfoned...all of the information posted on this thread has been great. So much better response than expected and some really useful info  to go through and consider....

As to your question of any cows sold yet,,, the answer is NO...but one or 2 are imminent shortly.

We have 2 cows at around 600kg. They are in a que to be bought at current rate of 105bht per kilo by the feed supplier.

The buyer seems to have so many cows available to buy that he ques them up... As I am not in Thailand until May I am unable to explore other places to sell them... My  local family members only feel comfortable selling locally where as I will try to find other outlets when I get to Thailand (currently researching online but I don't think local beef farmers/buyers put too much info online)...... However at 105 bht per kilo it nearly hits my projection but I don't want to be governed when to sell by only 1 buyer. The cows will probably not go too much past 600kgs so I don't want to waste money just feeding them whilst waiting in a que.... I will consider trying to arrange for slaughter and selling if it shows a better business option in the future...

It is a big learning curve for me..... But its interesting working through it and I hope to get a lot more experience when I get to Thailand and start exploring a few other buying/selling areas and options....

I will keep you updated as I progress......  If you have any selling suggestions they will be most welcome..

 

Best wishes

 

Joe

 

sounds good, good luck with it all...

some on "the ground info for you"  pigs,chickens eggs all seem to have got alot cheaper in the past month or so. wife has been buying reject finishers from a very large company for 30 baht kg live weight. lame animals or the runts that cannot make the grade type animals. 38/40 baht for live weight cull sows, not much more for good 100kg finishers. alot less for the village mixed diet pigs... eggs 65/70 baht for 30. local farms and supermarkets.   cuts of pork starting from 80 baht kg in big c tesco ect.  99 baht in cp shop yesterday.

some family memebers that have very large fish farms are stopping at the mo because of price of feed and also lower wholesale price, makiing it not worth the risk/work. 

local fresh kill beef is 320/340 baht kg, bought some the other morning. 

the ups and downs of farming......

[cobbler]

cobbler, buying some cows in the near future? looks like a good set up they have there.... 
 

Yes thoongfoned. Going out of rubber. Cant see the price improving in the next 10 years at least.
Bought 10 rai in sukhothai area,will sell land down bangsaphan area and buy more in sukhothai area. Really looking forward to it.
We were thinking of doing prik thai. Pepper corns plants but theres been 8000 rai of it planted down our way in them that hills.
Feeling pretty safe and sure about moocows.
Cant yet work out profit margin yet. On 20 cows doing cut and carry,excluding labor. Would 50% profit be achievable?

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[thoongfoned]

bit like how longs a peice of string...5555 im sure kickstart can give you the low down. if you can buy right and not be in a hurry to sell em, do most work yourselfs there has to something in it? or people would not keep em. got people daily cutting weeds and veg type stuff we have growing in/around the aeration "lagoons" we have, same people every year, 2 different old guys spend all day here, cut 6 or 7 vit bags full everyday, think they have a good few cows each..... other teams spend afew hours and get the same amounts but i dont think they are as fussy with what they take home. they do this for months on end till the rains come..... another old fella that i have not seen for some time tells me he exports his buffalos, gets better money this way..... 

wifes just done some deal to have the last rais of her rubber tree roots dug out, then more cane planted in the coming october....

[grollies]

3 hours ago, cobbler said:

Yes thoongfoned. Going out of rubber. Cant see the price improving in the next 10 years at least.
Bought 10 rai in sukhothai area,will sell land down bangsaphan area and buy more in sukhothai area. Really looking forward to it.
We were thinking of doing prik thai. Pepper corns plants but theres been 8000 rai of it planted down our way in them that hills.
Feeling pretty safe and sure about moocows.
Cant yet work out profit margin yet. On 20 cows doing cut and carry,excluding labor. Would 50% profit be achievable?

Sent from my SM-T815Y using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Mate, if you are getting out of rubber and into prik thai don't cut your trees down.

 

I've an experiment going on now based on a Viet guy who had pruned back his rubber to the top crown and growing peppercorn up the trunks of the trees. The remaining crown provides midday shade for the plants. I've got 20 peppercorn going up 4 y/o rubber, 2 plants per tree. Doing ok, better when the leaf drop had finished and new leaves sprout.

[grollies]

38 minutes ago, thoongfoned said:

wifes just done some deal to have the last rais of her rubber tree roots dug out, then more cane planted in the coming october....

What's the deal on getting rid of rubber? Any govt incentive? I just cut down 300 trees and got B750/tonne

[grollies]

Cobbler, interesting you mentioned India, they are way ahead of the agri game. They just finished mapping the country for soil condition and can recommend which fertilizer  and amounts needed to use in a particular zone. Really good stuff, shame it's not being done here.

[dfdgfdfdgs]

I didn't read the OP or any of the thread, I just read "Bought 12 Cows have limited knowledge"

 

What a thread title, what a guy OP is.  It sounds like something I might do after 10 pints.  It's one thing to buy an old vase at an antique shop on the offchance it might be a ming dynasty lottery ticket, because it fits on a shelf and looks pretty.  But 12 cows.  That's a lot of volume of cow.  Not to mention methane.  How does one go about moving the cow from the point of purchase?  A gentle prod to coax it along the highway?  I wouldn't know where to start.

Edited January 29, 2018 by dfdgfdfdgs

[grollies]

2 minutes ago, dfdgfdfdgs said:

I didn't read the OP or any of the thread, I just read "Bought 12 Cows have limited knowledge"

 

What a thread title, what a guy OP is.  It sounds like something I might do after 10 pints.  It's one thing to buy an old vase at an antique shop on the offchance it might be a ming dynasty lottery ticket, because it fits on a shelf and looks pretty.  But 12 cows.  That's a lot of volume of cow.  Not to mention methane.  How does one go about moving the cow from the point of purchase?  A gentle prod to coax it along the highway?  I wouldn't know where to start.

You might want to read the whole thread and revise comment. I thought the same at first but (the best thing about TV being the agri advice) is to sit back and gather the experience of other members, shared for free. Great thread chaps.

[kickstart]

7 hours ago, cobbler said:

For sure you all know this, just look at the crude protien 16%.
Visited a farm in bangsaphan area 300 rai with 500 breeders .totaling 600 head. 5 or 6 staff. Cherolet ( sorry for the spelling) crossed with simentol and i think was a bit of native in there. Colour were all mustard colour.
150 rai of napier. 150 rai of star grass was all they were growing. Had a bit of molasas in the shed. Also rice straw in the shed for very wet weather
Hope its ok i pop this in here.

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A Super Grass From Thailand

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zbsarian June 1, 2013
A Super Grass From Thailand
DR. KRAILAS KIYOTHONG with 59-days-old Napier Pakchong 1 in the plantation of Narongchai Deepraman

A new hybrid Napier grass is the talk of the town among dairy farmers in Thailand. The Thai Department of Livestock Development (DLD) calls it Napier Pakchong 1 but it might as well be called Super Grass.

Why? Because it is so nutritious. It is claimed to contain 16 -18 percent crude protein. It is very fast growing and high-yielding. One rai or 1,600 square meters can yield 20 tons of herbage per harvest and since there are 4 cuttings a year, that’s 80 tons per rai. That’s equivalent to 500 tons per hectare in one year. That means one hectare can produce enough grass to feed 50 dairy cows in one year. It also means that 16 hectares can already take care of 800 dairy cows!

The Super Grass was developed by Dr. Krailas Kiyothong, animal nutritionist and plant breeder of the Department of Livestock Development in Pakchong, Nakhon Ratchasima province, Thailand. He developed Napier Pakchong 1 by crossing the Pennisetum purpureum with Pearl Millet (Pennisetum glaucum). We have learned that India has also developed a cross of P. purpureum and P. glaucum but the Indian cross is not as spectacular as this one in Thailand.

The Super Grass is very palatable because the stalks are tender. It has a wide range of adaptability so that many farmers can benefit from it. Harvesting is done at intervals of 60 to 70 days. The first harvest, however, is made three months from planting. Then succeeding harvests are every 60 to 70 days. The stalks are cut close to the ground, and in no time, new shoots or ratoon will come out.

It has other uses aside from fresh feed for farm animals. If there is excess harvest because there are not enough animals to eat the newly cut grass, the same could be shredded and made into silage. The shredded leaves and stalks could also be made into organic fertilizer by mixing the same with cattle manure.When shredded into fine particles, the same could be fed to vegetable-eating fish like tilapia and Pangasius.

Planting materials, setts or cuttings, are now being bought by livestock farmers from Malaysia. Filipino livestock raisers are not far behind, however. Danilo Fausto who heads a Murrah buffalo cooperative in Nueva Ecija, Dr. Libertado Cruz of the Philippine Carabao Center, and Juan P. Lozano of the Batangas Dairy Cooperative have already ordered their own planting materials.
A Super Grass From Thailand
Danilo V. Fausto, Dr. Krailas Kiyothong (the plant breeder),
Zac B. Sarian, and Narongchai Deepraman, the grass farmer.
A Super Grass From Thailand
Napier Pakchong 1 being shredded, either for silage making or for making organic fertilizer by mixing the same with cow manure. If shredded into fine particles, it could be fed to fish.
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Big Money From Super NapierJune 3, 2013In "Agri Ideas"

Super Napier Planting GuideMay 13, 2014In "Agri News"

A Bigger Market For Super NapierOctober 7, 2013In "Agri Ideas"
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7 thoughts on “A Super Grass From Thailand”

Philip Credo says:
June 20, 2013 at 2:54 pm

We have now BANA GRASS (Hybrid of Pennisetum Purpureum and Pennisetum Typhoidum)here in the philippines. Much more like with that super napier or better i think. You can check it out with your own eyes. We have here in in pampamga. Check this website: http://www.mackaygreenenergy.ph
Reply
matricafranca says:
April 14, 2014 at 4:08 pm

Sir, do you sell stem cuttings of this?Please send me any info on how to avail this kind of grass. You can send it to matricafranca@ yahoo.com, thank you!
Reply
zbsarian says:
May 10, 2014 at 8:53 pm

We now have available planting materials, three-node cuttings, which are easy to germinate. These are available at the Sarian Farm in Teresa, Rizal. Call or text 0917-841-5477 for info on how to avail yourself of the planting materials.
Reply
aileen villarosa says:
October 2, 2014 at 11:31 am

at what province sir?
Reply
Renato P. Valdez says:
July 10, 2015 at 11:01 am

Sir what is the fertilizer recommendation for Pakchong 1 to get the 16-18 % CP that they are claiming and at what age of cutting? We sent some samples for CP analysis and we got only 10.5 at 28 days old, 9.34 at 35 days old, 6.11 at 42 days old and 6.334 at 45 days old
Reply
marumo says:
November 8, 2016 at 5:16 pm

Can I get supper grass i”m in africa in botswana
Reply
zbsarian says:
November 8, 2016 at 6:17 pm

Sorry, we are not sure if there is a source there.
Reply

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Sent from my SM-T815Y using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

56

56

At times I do love reading  BS , somewhere I have written that Nappier Packcnon ,if it is PC 1,PC2 ,it will not not produce 16% protein the guy who had it analyzed and got 10.5%protine    at 28 days is not far out ,and  6.33 at 45 days would be about right .

As for 20 ton, per Rie, per cut,no way ,even if it is glowing in the dark with cow manuar and uear that has been appied  it would not anywere near 20ton/rie ,even on good land, maxamim amount of urae appiled  I would say max 7 ton/rie 

Cobbler 

              Interesting report about the beef farm, using  Chralais x Brahman , could not see much Simentaile blood they , looks if thay are trying the same system as the Thai/French  beef farm at Sarkonakon ,at the farm in Supanburi ,the powder would be they home milled concentrate ,it looks from the photo that it is a silage basied diet ? only feeding a small amount of concentrate , silage is cheap to make and any concentrate is expensive ,a good management move and it keeps the profit margins on the right side ,any idea what grass thay where useing  for the silage .

[cobbler]

KS. Lol . In regards to protien and 20 tons per rai,yes my wife calls it " selling the dream" As for 20 ton per rai. The pic showed 12 ft high grass. Hmmm everybody knows best protien lvl is at approximately 45 /55 days after last cut. They said they put it through a chaff cutter so no wastage,and good dry content,. Hmmmm ide have to see a farm doing it 1st to believe it.
I made mistake saying there was simentol in those cattle. The guy actually said they were planning on mixing simentol with these cattle next.
Only grasses they were growing there were napier pakchon and star grass. This was cut, then diced useing a chaff cutter machine. Let dry for 2 or 3 days then when dry matter is right. Mix a bit of concentrate and feed out to stock. I saw they had cubic foot blocks of what appeared to be molasses but tasted like salt. Hehehe proof is in the pudding. So it was very possibly a mix of salt and molasses.
This opperation has been going for i think he said 30 years.
If we do this cattle project my mrs will do a government run course. So she has all her is and ts dotted and crossed. For sure ,done right there is money to be made.
Stick to a good medicine plan,prevention is better than cure.
Grollies yes dont underestimate the indians. They are buying massive amounts of land in Australia.
As for prik thai. Read the post again and youll see why we wont do it. The price will really drop within next 5 years, guarantee it. Also if u plan growing it up the side of hang trees. Be sure to have very good watering system. Yang have surface roots and suck every last bit of moisture out of the soil. So in dry time . Forget it. Can be done but youll need massive amounts of water,forget a drip system. Waste of money. Great idea though if u live down south though. 10 months rain.




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[thoongfoned]

13 hours ago, grollies said:

What's the deal on getting rid of rubber? Any govt incentive? I just cut down 300 trees and got B750/tonne

no gov incentive, just trees that had been burned, then cut to the ground, sold, got about 20-30 baht tree, i think?? last year or year before.....  the plot that is left to clear is 10 plus rai or so, the trees were 12 ish years old so the roots are quite big, 20 ton macro in then tractor to push all the roots ect then burn. land then rented to cane farmers, this new family will pay for all clearing work then 1 year bahts up front, first year coz of all the prep the wife says they pay about 750 baht a rai to her, after that they pay 1200 baht a rai. have the ther half of the old rubber land as cane, but this family got the first year free, coz of all the roots to dig out (20 plus rai) they "only" pay 1000 baht rai after cutting/selling cane, so the "boss" is thinking of changing who rents her lands, i think with this new lot being cleared she has 60/70 rai under cane, still got other lands she uses for rice ect... i always tell her to sell some land, but she only really likes to buy moreeeeeee.  wife should get paid some time in feb for cane in the ground already but the wife thinks the family that rent the land is struggling with loads bills, just like most people i tell her.5555

[cobbler]

Question. If napier pakchon has approximately 10% crude protien and the whole stalk leaves ect can be eaten. What is the crude protien of maize? Is the protien only in the seed or cob? Why bother wasting planting maize when its cheap to buy small amount of protien? Wouldnt it be better to plant more napier and have more head of cows?
Any thoughts on this?
Cheers Cobbler
PS still waiting/praying for answer on profit margin on selling fattened or wieners? 50% ? 75? Labor costs excluded

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[New Cowboy]

16 hours ago, grollies said:

You might want to read the whole thread and revise comment. I thought the same at first but (the best thing about TV being the agri advice) is to sit back and gather the experience of other members, shared for free. Great thread chaps.

Hi Grollies.....

You are absolutely right....This TV forum has been a superb help with advice and info.

Hopefully in a few years when I am experienced a little I can offer advice and suggestions regarding same to other members.

Thank you all for your advice and information..it has been invaluable

 

Joe

[kickstart]

Cobbler

             Protine of maize plant  is about 5-6% ,but with a plant with a high grain yield , when made in to silage the protein is increased to 9% ,but more important the energy levels increase ,it is the energy of a ration ,as well as the proteins that make cattle grow, with dairy cows  energy  levels, are more important than  protein levels .

A maize plant with cobs on , cattle can not digest the maize grains ,thay will just pass straight though the digestive system, that if thay eat it at all , hence chopping the plant is a lot better option,and when the cobs are at the  milky stage . 

As for a 30-50 % profit margin ,it is our piece of string ,if you have good quality grass ,all the better,but a 400 kg beef bull could  eat 20kg of good quality grass a  day ,you times that by 20 more that is a lot of grass to cut and cart ,do it your self or hired labour ( the op paying 12000 baht/month labour to me that is a lot , eats the profit margin ).

And concentrat costs ,do you buy a nice 16% protine pellated feed .at 10-11 baht/ kg god but expencive and cattle would grow well ,or a 16% meal cheaper but slightly less quality,or a 14%  meal plus a kg of soay bean meal ,soay bean not cheap  but it would give you about a 15% mix ,or a 14% meal  cheaper but cattle would grow slower, these type of things should be dissesed when your mises does her course ,and do not forget minrals ,a powerded minral mixed in with the feed  ,not  ,salt blocks only, cattle would be short of minrals ,but salt blocks should be feed as well . 

One problem breed of cattle ideally you want Brahman x Thai Native thay will fatten well, growth rate not on par with Charolais but ok ,do not buy any Indo Brazil ,the long-eared things or any Indo x thay just not get fat ,Google Indo Brazil , then look at a Charolais,no comparison.

Must agree on the Pric Thai , the bottom will drop  in time ,a typically Thai thing one person dose it ..........

This year it will be bananas last year there was  a shortage  this year  you will not be able to give them away ,but cattle love them  

[Ronaldo777]

1 hour ago, kickstart said:

Cobbler

             Protine of maize plant  is about 5-6% ,but with a plant with a high grain yield , when made in to silage the protein is increased to 9% ,but more important the energy levels increase ,it is the energy of a ration ,as well as the proteins that make cattle grow, with dairy cows  energy  levels, are more important than  protein levels .

A maize plant with cobs on , cattle can not digest the maize grains ,thay will just pass straight though the digestive system, that if thay eat it at all , hence chopping the plant is a lot better option,and when the cobs are at the  milky stage . 

As for a 30-50 % profit margin ,it is our piece of string ,if you have good quality grass ,all the better,but a 400 kg beef bull could  eat 20kg of good quality grass a  day ,you times that by 20 more that is a lot of grass to cut and cart ,do it your self or hired labour ( the op paying 12000 baht/month labour to me that is a lot , eats the profit margin ).

And concentrat costs ,do you buy a nice 16% protine pellated feed .at 10-11 baht/ kg god but expencive and cattle would grow well ,or a 16% meal cheaper but slightly less quality,or a 14%  meal plus a kg of soay bean meal ,soay bean not cheap  but it would give you about a 15% mix ,or a 14% meal  cheaper but cattle would grow slower, these type of things should be dissesed when your mises does her course ,and do not forget minrals ,a powerded minral mixed in with the feed  ,not  ,salt blocks only, cattle would be short of minrals ,but salt blocks should be feed as well . 

One problem breed of cattle ideally you want Brahman x Thai Native thay will fatten well, growth rate not on par with Charolais but ok ,do not buy any Indo Brazil ,the long-eared things or any Indo x thay just not get fat ,Google Indo Brazil , then look at a Charolais,no comparison.

Must agree on the Pric Thai , the bottom will drop  in time ,a typically Thai thing one person dose it ..........

This year it will be bananas last year there was  a shortage  this year  you will not be able to give them away ,but cattle love them  

 

[kickstart]

580New cowboy

                      Good to hear that your cattle are doing ok ,but as I said in my first post to you , your cattle making 600 kg ,I still can not see it , not in 4 months of rearing ,any chances of some more photographs.

I would say the queue at the buyers is because he is paying the best price in your area at the moment ,as you said the price has dropped.

Been trying to find a price for fat cattle around here ,our buyer said he has to look at each animal first , then decide ,but he did say he brought some cattle at 90-100 baht kg ,market is getting very volatile,a  bit like nearly  all Thai agriculture commodities  price is dropping, except for  farm milk price ,for good quality milk the price is very good .

Trying to find another buyer ,get your wife to look at Thai Facebook or other social  media ,I would say they would something they. 

[cobbler]

Thats great KS really appreciate your feedback. Not trying to be a smartsss, buuuut, it all makes sense, commonsense. [emoji106]

Sent from my SM-T815Y using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[cobbler]

KS so really maize is lower protien than napier pakchon. Would it be fair to say if cows were in a cut and carry system. They would use a lot less energy as opposed to roaming around a paddock looking for feed. So should theoretically fatten and grow quicker. They eat walk 10 steps and stand or sit. Not roam around looking for food. Or does it not really make that much difference.
I know ive heard it said before that they fatten faster ,walking less. Just again interested in your opinion.
What u said about maize explains why the farm in bangsaphan only grew b apier and star grass. NO MAIZE.

Sent from my SM-T815Y using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[cobbler]

KS so really maize is lower protien than napier pakchon. Would it be fair to say if cows were in a cut and carry system. They would use a lot less energy as opposed to roaming around a paddock looking for feed. So should theoretically fatten and grow quicker. They eat walk 10 steps and stand or sit. Not roam around looking for food. Or does it not really make that much difference.
I know ive heard it said before that they fatten faster ,walking less. Just again interested in your opinion.
What u said about maize explains why the farm in bangsaphan only grew napier and star grass. NO MAIZE.

Sent from my SM-T815Y using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

Sent from my SM-T815Y using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[kickstart]

Hi cobbler 

                  You are right about cattle walking a long distance, and using a lot of energy  ,I have seen beef cattle  1km from they home, grazing on next to nothing, thay will use more energy in walking back and forwards  to they shed than they will get from grazing, with dairy cows , this is taken in to consideration  when working out a ration .

But, cattle do need some exercise ,the bovine has 4 stomachs /compartments ,they need  4 to digest the grass and fiber that is part of the diet , one stomach the Omasum ,is made of muscles that grinds the food as the animale walks ,cattle that live in a 5x6  shed do not get the exercise ,to make the  stomach  work properly ,and could well have stomach and digestive problems, especially if the diet is very fibrous, ie feeding a lot of rice straw .

So, cattle in sheds all the time could grow quicker, but cattle grazing a nice lush grass paddock  at the back of they shed ,and then lying down  and chew the cud in the corner of the field, in the shade ,will be a lot more content ,than cattle  lying  in a shed all the time  with fly's buzzing around, and I would say they  would grow quicker .

(Thai dairy cows have a big foot problem, being in sheds the whole time,feet do not wear ,grow long claws ,and start to get all typs of foot problems .)

Back to maize/Nappier, debate ,I have said before, when working  out a cattle ration it is the energy factor  that is the biggest problem, a diet with the protein  about right and a high energy level are good, cattle  will do ok, but protein ok  and energy levels low  (,the biggest problem with Thai dairy cows,  diet short of energy gives a low milk quality and an infertility problem, a big  problem with dairy cows,) and with beef cattle you would not get good growth  rates.

Maize silage has the highest energy value of nearly all the silage's the protein   would be lower than a 45 day old Nappier but the energy value is a lot higher ,so it would be a better feed than Nappier ,and Nappier has a very  short window  from being a good feed to being  a very average feed ,so a clamp of maize silage cattle would  milk/grow well ,and you could well feed  less concentrate, meaning  better  margins .

I would say the farm at Bangsupn has looked in maize silage ,but it is the cost , growing the maize ,7 disc plough,3 disc plough, seed , planting costs ,then you have to have a clamp, Thai 's like concrete silage clamps ,not cheap to build,then  you have to get the silage out of the clamp ,I have never seen a set of forks  for a loader in Thailand .

Nappier grass you plant it once only, only costs some fertilizer, again at Baghsupan they feed Napier, probably the most economical forage that they can grow ,and along with star grass, star grass is a surprising  feed ,not the grass with the highest protein ,we have a lot around here ,but it it not managed well ,but looking at the quality of they cattle, for them it works, as thay say  it 'ant broke don't fix it. 

[cobbler]

KS . Bingo, this is exactlly what i need to know. Perfect. Thank you.
(Maize silage has the highest energy value of nearly all the silage's the protein   would be lower than a 45 day old Nappier but the energy value is a lot higher ,so it would be a better feed than Nappier ,and Nappier has a very  short window  from being a good feed to being  a very average feed ,so a clamp of maize silage cattle would  milk/grow well ,and you could well feed  less concentrate, meaning  better  margins .)
As for a silage clamp . We/dad made 1 on our farm when i was a kid. Did the job well. Prick of a job without it,getting silage out of a pit for 20 or more cows every day. In the end we went out of silage. Not cost efective. Just used hay after that.
We will deffinately be visiting that farm again in bangsaphan before we start. So polite and helpful. TheThai manager had been to Rockhampton in Queensland to some big cattle stations and knew <deleted> he was talking about. By the way bangsaphan cattle farm isnt owned by farang,its owned by thai.
Need to find out what their feed concentrate consisted of. Im not surprised the energy content is in that concentrate mix.
They did have tractor plough ect there actually. Need to find out what they are cutting the feed with. Im guessing a crop chopper. Way too much work for just a hand held whipper snipper.
Said to the mrs if we rotational grazed the cattle . Then followed them 4 days later with mobile chicken houses ( chicken tractors) . Then collect the eggs and theres a 2nd income also taking out the fly larvee,maggots ect. My very astute wife looked at me and said " yeah ,if you can keep the cobras out from the eggs . That would be awsome idea" ???? hmmmmm stupid farang.


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[cobbler]

KS sorry i think i missunderstood the word clamp. I thought it was the fork grab thing on the front of the tractor. Now im thinking its the storage facility to keep the silage in. Ill google it and see what comes up.
Thanks again for this imformation. Most astute fellow you are. Would love to visit you and see what youre doing. Youre an ideas man.
Cheers Cobbler


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[BJM1950]

Hey New Cowboy, I am no farmer, but grew up helping on a few farms in South Africa. Once neutered, a bullock became an ox.

Most farmers would sell off a few of the young bulls to others for breeding purposes, keep a few cows for breeding and neuter the remainder, of the bullocks for fattening. T There are a few handy sites which give you an idea of weight gain per day.

I would use these as a guide, say 70% or 75% of the weight gain because of the feed situaton here, as the figures are based on optimum feed quality.

So in a nut shell, purchasing a bullock = 22,000 Baht, less holding costs for 5 months plus transport =(12,000+4,000) divided by 153 days = 105 Baht per day

Expected weight gain in 5 months, 153 days at average 1 kg per day by 75% = 0.75 kg per day =115 kg

I would think for a bullock or heifer to get to 500kg would take 300 days /.75 = 400 days (starting weight 200 kg, finishing 500 kg)

So my calculation would be 400X105 = 42,000 Baht plus transport of 1,000

Total cost 22,000+42,000+1,000 = 65,000 Baht

I hope I am wrong!

[kickstart]

4 hours ago, cobbler said:

KS . Bingo, this is exactlly what i need to know. Perfect. Thank you.
(Maize silage has the highest energy value of nearly all the silage's the protein   would be lower than a 45 day old Nappier but the energy value is a lot higher ,so it would be a better feed than Nappier ,and Nappier has a very  short window  from being a good feed to being  a very average feed ,so a clamp of maize silage cattle would  milk/grow well ,and you could well feed  less concentrate, meaning  better  margins .)
As for a silage clamp . We/dad made 1 on our farm when i was a kid. Did the job well. Prick of a job without it,getting silage out of a pit for 20 or more cows every day. In the end we went out of silage. Not cost efective. Just used hay after that.
We will deffinately be visiting that farm again in bangsaphan before we start. So polite and helpful. TheThai manager had been to Rockhampton in Queensland to some big cattle stations and knew <deleted> he was talking about. By the way bangsaphan cattle farm isnt owned by farang,its owned by thai.
Need to find out what their feed concentrate consisted of. Im not surprised the energy content is in that concentrate mix.
They did have tractor plough ect there actually. Need to find out what they are cutting the feed with. Im guessing a crop chopper. Way too much work for just a hand held whipper snipper.
Said to the mrs if we rotational grazed the cattle . Then followed them 4 days later with mobile chicken houses ( chicken tractors) . Then collect the eggs and theres a 2nd income also taking out the fly larvee,maggots ect. My very astute wife looked at me and said " yeah ,if you can keep the cobras out from the eggs . That would be awsome idea" ???? hmmmmm stupid farang.


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4 hours ago, cobbler said:

KS . Bingo, this is exactlly what i need to know. Perfect. Thank you.
(Maize silage has the highest energy value of nearly all the silage's the protein   would be lower than a 45 day old Nappier but the energy value is a lot higher ,so it would be a better feed than Nappier ,and Nappier has a very  short window  from being a good feed to being  a very average feed ,so a clamp of maize silage cattle would  milk/grow well ,and you could well feed  less concentrate, meaning  better  margins .)
As for a silage clamp . We/dad made 1 on our farm when i was a kid. Did the job well. Prick of a job without it,getting silage out of a pit for 20 or more cows every day. In the end we went out of silage. Not cost efective. Just used hay after that.
We will deffinately be visiting that farm again in bangsaphan before we start. So polite and helpful. TheThai manager had been to Rockhampton in Queensland to some big cattle stations and knew <deleted> he was talking about. By the way bangsaphan cattle farm isnt owned by farang,its owned by thai.
Need to find out what their feed concentrate consisted of. Im not surprised the energy content is in that concentrate mix.
They did have tractor plough ect there actually. Need to find out what they are cutting the feed with. Im guessing a crop chopper. Way too much work for just a hand held whipper snipper.
Said to the mrs if we rotational grazed the cattle . Then followed them 4 days later with mobile chicken houses ( chicken tractors) . Then collect the eggs and theres a 2nd income also taking out the fly larvee,maggots ect. My very astute wife looked at me and said " yeah ,if you can keep the cobras out from the eggs . That would be awsome idea" ???? hmmmmm stupid farang.


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ay the 

I would say the farm at Bangsupan would mix they own feed ,it 

would be the most cost effetive way for them to mix a feed ration ,thay would use  rice bran,soay bean meal ,cassava ,palm and coconut meal ,maybe cotton seed meal ,and maybe molasses ,and maybe urea ,urea as in  46% urea fertilizer,urea is a good way to push up the protein of a ration ,at a low cost ,urea is mixed at about 1,1/2% of the total ration ,it has got a bad name in Thailand ,it has been feed wrong and cattle have died ,the CP's of Thailand all use urea  in they  cattle rations,keeps costs  down .

A farmer near me buys in a16 % mixed ration ,with the above  ingredents  for 10 baht/ Kg , from a local  feed mill 50 km from here I  would say that Bangsupan, with the amount  that thay buy , could  produce a ration of 14-16% protein for about 8 baht/kg ,I pay 7 baht/kg for a 14% meal mix,                                                                                                                      You could ask them  what the T.D.N. is of the ration .Total Digetive Nutrents ,a mesument of enagy ,an old methord  but still used,I think re think ,it should be 65-67 TDN.

                  Looking at that choped grass it was cut with something like Farmerjo's photogaph  from page 1 of this thread a good bit of kit about 160k ,gives a better more uniform chop,  cattle will eat most of chopped grass ,the 40 k choppers that are used a lot in Thailand ,this chopper give an uneven  long chop ,and cattle will pick out the best bits and leave the rest .                                                                                                                                                                                                            Somewhere on this thread I wrote a piece about rotational grazing ,for me it  did and did not work ,not the same as I use to do in the UK .                                                                                                                                                        You could say to your misses about the eggs ,do not collect the eggs,start a new enterprice  rearing Ngo Hou,Cobras snakes ,being a Thai like my misses ,she love that,I do not think.       

[kickstart]

On 01/02/2018 at 7:06 PM, BJM1950 said:

Hey New Cowboy, I am no farmer, but grew up helping on a few farms in South Africa. Once neutered, a bullock became an ox.

Most farmers would sell off a few of the young bulls to others for breeding purposes, keep a few cows for breeding and neuter the remainder, of the bullocks for fattening. T There are a few handy sites which give you an idea of weight gain per day.

I would use these as a guide, say 70% or 75% of the weight gain because of the feed situaton here, as the figures are based on optimum feed quality.

So in a nut shell, purchasing a bullock = 22,000 Baht, less holding costs for 5 months plus transport =(12,000+4,000) divided by 153 days = 105 Baht per day

Expected weight gain in 5 months, 153 days at average 1 kg per day by 75% = 0.75 kg per day =115 kg

I would think for a bullock or heifer to get to 500kg would take 300 days /.75 = 400 days (starting weight 200 kg, finishing 500 kg)

So my calculation would be 400X105 = 42,000 Baht plus transport of 1,000

Total cost 22,000+42,000+1,000 = 65,000 Baht

I hope I am wrong!

Interesting calculations, holding costs I take it you mean feed costs? ,the op said thay are 80baht/day ,and I said that is a high figuer .I will agree on the weight gain ,as you said the feed situation, mainly due to low-quality forage.

Looking at the op's photographs I would say the brought in weight would be about 280-300 kg ,as you say 153 days growth weight gain115kg, a long way from the op's projected  600kg ,as I said a 600kg animal is a big  beast . 

[cobbler]

Thats why cows luckily eat grass. Grass grows in the ground,if you have the spare ground to grow it on.. Grow the right types of grass . Then most of your costs will be either cutting that grass and medicine and fertilizer.
Or as most thais walk them round the roads. Medicine .
As Farang ,i cant imagine us walking the cows round the roads 364 days a year. So itll be cutting , medicine, fertilizer. I feel if 30 breeders were a number of cows purchased. 1 thai worker could take care of them and still make a profit while breeding numbers . Not sure im right or not,but just my thoughts. If you owned 20 rai, rotational grazing cows untill cows bred up sufficiently to warrant leaving them in a pen/pens and cut and carry. During we season to avoid turning the grass into a mud hole,cut and carry.
Still like the idea of chooks in mobile house . They do a great job of scratching shit around and keeping flys down while maximizing manure usage as fertilizer. If nothing else u got eggs , chicken meat and this can be sold or bartered . Many are doing it in the west nowdays as a 2nd source of income. However they dont have cobras, but australia has brown snakes which kill u just as dead and fast as cobras .
Even though thais mostly dont spend money on supplements ect for their brahmans ( forget natives) . I sometimes wonder if they get same proffit as a person pouring mony into a brahman during its life . The difference is probably if cow gets sick,maybe dead. Then all is lost.
Ive seen herds of 30 ,40 up to 100 walking round the roads in sukhothai area. They dont look great quality but the owner has a nice 4x4 in the driveway. This makes me wonder a bit. Thais not stupid, i feel they can work out whats worth throwing money at and whats not.
Food for thought.

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[farmerjo]

Way out west here in the old days if you employed someone to walk your cows,they received every second baby.

There is not many roaming cows left here now due to the increase in sugar cane area and the National park being stricter.The big herds would go into the park during rice season and come back after.

Ticks become a  problem with the roaming method. 

If you have money to buy cows this would be my preferred option(just forget about them but keep the numbers managerable for those looking after them )

Out here even trying to run a cut n carry system from your own land,it does not rain for 4-5 months a year so you would be buying feed in or spending on irrigation.

My apologies for not getting to the local market yet for some prices,to cold here for me to be up that early this time of year.

 

[thoongfoned]

53 minutes ago, farmerjo said:

Way out west here in the old days if you employed someone to walk your cows,they received every second baby.

There is not many roaming cows left here now due to the increase in sugar cane area and the National park being stricter.The big herds would go into the park during rice season and come back after.

Ticks become a  problem with the roaming method. 

If you have money to buy cows this would be my preferred option(just forget about them but keep the numbers managerable for those looking after them )

Out here even trying to run a cut n carry system from your own land,it does not rain for 4-5 months a year so you would be buying feed in or spending on irrigation.

My apologies for not getting to the local market yet for some prices,to cold here for me to be up that early this time of year.

 

yep thats what the guys with a god few roaming cattle used to do, pay worker with with a new born. no births no payment. there used to be a few roaming herds of 20 or so cattle back 4 or 5 years ago, i think most got sold on when the price per  head of cattle went from 5,000 baht to 20,000 in a short space of time....

say you buy x amount of females with the idea of breeding or "finishing" on the graze and or cut carry method, why not buy a few less cattle and spend the spare money on a couple of fish ponds and some pigs. rotate the fish ponds so in the dry season you can use the spent water on irriagation for you grasses, with the pigs get a few piglets and try and get a small herd together over time, the back wash from the pigs will be worth money and the grass land around the ariation pit will always produce good grass/vegitation. plus around the airation pit bannas will grow like crazy, either eat or give back to the animals. well thats the sort of thing i would do if i were in the ,market to try and make some bahts from the land at the mo, mix it all up and do not spend heavy on 1 thing, the more diverse the better, within reason of course.

we have grass/veg growing all the year round between the airation pits from the pigs, people must cut many 100's kg of "stuff" every wk from around 4/5 rai that just sits idle, amonst all this there all loads of fish and of course bannas......

[cobbler]

Pigs. .been there done that. Had piggery. 110 sows. Bred them up over a couple of years. End up buying all the feed. Too much hassle. Swore ide never do it again.
Pigs are ok if u just want to have a few to eat scraps airatethe soil. Lovely. But how much money am i going to make doing that?sounds like more of a fun hobby type thing.
Fish could be interesting. I love fish. Unfortunately fish dont love me.
Cows eat grass. Cows are much more desease resistant.
1 thing i agree with you though is. Everything in moderation.

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