We are one' - Palestinian Christians and Muslims unite against Trump's Jerusalem call

[webfact]

We are one' - Palestinian Christians and Muslims unite against Trump's Jerusalem call

By Maayan Lubell

 

A general view of Jerusalem shows a Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives in the foreground and the Dome of the Rock, located in Jerusalem's Old City on the compound known to Muslims as Noble Sanctuary and to Jews as Temple Mount, in the background December 10, 2017. REUTERS/Ammar Awad

 

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Less than an hour after U.S. President Donald Trump recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital, Palestinians protested by turning off the lights on the Christmas tree outside Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, the traditional birthplace of Jesus.

 

It was a timely reminder that while headlines focused on Islamist calls for uprisings and Trump's references to Jewish historical ties, the president's words also stirred deep feelings among the Palestinians' small Christian community.

 

Coming out of the Sunday service in his Assyrian Catholic church in Jerusalem, Fredrick Hazo accused Trump of "dragging all the world into trouble", and called on the U.S. leader to reverse his decision.

 

"We are united - Christians, Muslims, we are one," said the 59-year-old Palestinian musician, standing in an alley in the heart of the Old City, surrounded by shops selling religious trinkets.

 

He was frustrated by the politics, but confident the delicate balance the three faiths kept in the holy city would prevail. "In this sacred place, God is protecting us all. We are guarded by his angels in Jerusalem," Hazo added.

 

Christians make up around just one percent of the Palestinian population in Gaza, the West Bank and East Jerusalem - though they punch above their weight in local and national politics.

 

Back in July, Hazo protested alongside Muslims against Israel's installation of security scanners at the nearby al-Aqsa mosque - Islam's third holiest site - after two Arab-Israeli gunmen shot dead two Israeli police officers at the site.

 

It removed the metal detectors after days of bloody clashes, scenes that have not been repeated in the city since Trump's declaration.

 

UNITED IN PRAYER

 

The appeals to religious unity inside Jerusalem's walls stand in contrast to the more divided voices outside.

 

In the hours running up to Trump's statement, Pope Francis called for the status quo in the city to be respected. The Episcopal Church of the United States said Trump's announcement "could have profound ramifications on the peace process and the future of a two-state solution".

 

But Trump's decision found strong backing from another corner of the Christian community - many among his own country's politically powerful evangelicals who see God's hand in the modern-day return of Jews to a biblical homeland.

 

Trump convened a circle of evangelical advisers during his presidential bid, and he was the overwhelming favourite of white evangelical voters in last year’s U.S. election.

 

"We are all bible-believers and we believe that this is the bible-land and that Jerusalem is the ancient capital of Israel back to the days of King David," said Dallas-based Mike Evans, part of an evangelical group that met Trump on Monday.

 

"So for our president to stand up and declare it makes us extremely proud and honoured."

 

For Palestinian supermarket cashier Mohammed al-Hawa, however, Trump's words and the logic behind them ignored the more complex reality on the ground.

 

People of all faith in Jerusalem were united in prayer, the 33-year-old said, even if they were divided over politics.

 

"Christians, Jews and Muslims live in this city together. There is no problem between them. Only the politics. The governments want to make wars," he said.

 

"This is my city - my blood, my life," added a 70-year-old Palestinian, walking through the pilgrim-packed courtyard of Jerusalem's Church of the Holy Sepulchre, revered by Christians as the site of Jesus's tomb.

 

The church is packed into a small parcel of land that also holds the al-Aqsa compound and Judaism's Western Wall

 

"I can go to the church, to anywhere in Jerusalem, not Trump nor Netanyahu can stop me," added the man who identified himself only as a "Jerusalemite".

 

(Additional reporting by Mustafa Abu Ganeyeh in Bethelem; Editing by Jeffrey Heller and Andrew Heavens)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2017-12-13

[dexterm]

OP...
"But Trump's decision found strong backing from another corner of the Christian community - many among his own country's politically powerful evangelicals who see God's hand in the modern-day return of Jews to a biblical homeland.
Trump convened a circle of evangelical advisers during his presidential bid, and he was the overwhelming favourite of white evangelical voters in last year’s U.S. election."

 

Ironically, for Trump with his Jewish family and for Netanyahu's right wing fanatics, one of their main supporters are Rapture Christians whose beliefs are essentially anti Semitic.

 

You couldn't make this up if you tried.

 

Christian Evangelicals believe in the prophecy of the ‘End of Days’ foretelling Jewish control of all Jerusalem, a war of civilisations, Armageddon, that Christ will return to Jerusalem and rule as king, offering a choice to Jews to either convert to Christianity or die in hell.

 

The irony would be funny if it were not so tragic for the Palestinians who are suffering from the political influence of these nutjobs.

 

Fascinating article on CNN about evangelicals, their beliefs and their disproportionate influence over US foreign policy.
"For many evangelicals, Jerusalem is about prophecy, not politics"

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/12/08/opinions/jerusalem-israel-evangelicals-end-times-butler-bass-opinion/index.html
 

[hawker9000]

Oh.  They're united are they?  Of course they are.  <yawn>

 

 For years Palestinians stonewall the "peace process" by refusing to ever acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state, and get all weepy when Israel finally said enough and declared Jerusalem its capital, and a U.S. president finally simply recognized it instead of penning "executive orders" - something which Congress actually legislated back in 1995!   And Obama's habit of taking a knee for every world leader except Netanyahu also now reaps what was sowed.

 

Jew-haters everywhere are obviously going to scream bloody murder.   Well birds gotta' fly; fish gotta' swim.

 

[thaiguzzi]

12 minutes ago, hawker9000 said:

Oh.  They're united are they?  Of course they are.  <yawn>

 

 For years Palestinians stonewall the "peace process" by refusing to ever acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state, and get all weepy when Israel finally said enough and declared Jerusalem its capital, and a U.S. president finally simply recognized it instead of penning "executive orders" - something which Congress actually legislated back in 1995!   And Obama's habit of taking a knee for every world leader except Netanyahu also now reaps what was sowed.

 

Jew-haters everywhere are obviously going to scream bloody murder.   Well birds gotta' fly; fish gotta' swim.

 

And Palestinians gotta have their land back...

[Guest Jerry787]

well what the Israel government si doing to the Palestinian over 50 years is simply a race cleaning, lets dont consider the tragicomic cartoon puppet of trump, indeed if what done to palestine and palestinians was done to israel we will have all europeans and US armed force defend them.

its sad and very much disgusting that on 2017 there is still some one defending the atrocities committed and that keep committing against palestinians, as they are not muslim, jew or catholic, they are humans massacred by israel.
 

[dexterm]

3 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

Oh.  They're united are they?  Of course they are.  <yawn>

 

 For years Palestinians stonewall the "peace process" by refusing to ever acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state, and get all weepy when Israel finally said enough and declared Jerusalem its capital, and a U.S. president finally simply recognized it instead of penning "executive orders" - something which Congress actually legislated back in 1995!   And Obama's habit of taking a knee for every world leader except Netanyahu also now reaps what was sowed.

 

Jew-haters everywhere are obviously going to scream bloody murder.   Well birds gotta' fly; fish gotta' swim.

 

The peace process has stalled because Israel continues to build Jewish only colonies in the illegally occupied West Bank. Like promising to divide a pizza fairly at the same time as you are eating it.

 

Netanyahu's demand for recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's undivided capital was supposed to be delayed for final status negotiations, not a precondition. So that's a no brainer non starter.

 

Netanyahu's demand for recognition as a Jewish State is silly for 3 reasons, and very sinister for a 4th:

 

1) How can Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish State when Israelis can't even agree amongst themselves where their eastern border with a Palestinian state should be, so why should Israel ask the Palestinians to do so.

 

2) Domestically Israel can call itself what it likes: the Jewish Republic of Israel. Just as Iran calls itself the Islamic Republic or the Congo, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, but it doesn't demand surrounding countries must recognize as such to be allowed to be a peaceful neighbor.

 

3) How can you legislate yourself as a Jewish State when a sizable portion of your citizens are non Jewish, and if Israel annexes even more land, the Palestinians may actually outnumber Jews. It would make Israeli Palestinians instant 2nd class non Jewish citizens in a Jewish state.

 

4) Seems a harmless enough demand from Netanyahu, but if you want to know what Netanyahu really means by a Jewish State have a look at some of the very nasty ramifications that will lead from The Basic Law (Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People.) that he has been promoting for the last 3 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law_proposal:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People#Public_debate

It's not yet finalized, but Palestinians would clearly be crazy to agree to it.

It is a purely racist/religionist law. They cannot even decide whether to put the word democracy in it, defining Israel as a "Jewish and Democratic" state. 

 

Such a Basic Law will overide any other law, like a constitution does, and would open the floodgates for many other proposed apartheid style laws that the Israeli Supreme Court will then no longer be able to counter, which currently upsets the right wing nationalists.
 
Avigdor Lieberman, Israeli Defense Minister, has already demanded that Israeli Arabs take loyalty oaths, and if not..ethnically cleanse them. Will it allow Israel to jail or expel citizens Jewish and Palestinians who voice criticism of the Jewish State?

 

And if Netanyahu is doing this to preclude any future claims on Israel,  he could simply put a clause in a final status treaty, and make the agreement, as Trump said, "acceptable to both sides."

 

 The bottom line of course is that Netanyahu is wasting his time demanding these preconditions, because he knows full well the Palestinians won't agree to them and with good reason as outlined above. Even if in a moment of madness the Palestinians agreed to Netanyahu's demands,  what guarantee is there that they will receive in return any Palestinian state at all, having thrown away all their bargaining chips.

 

Netanyahu is deliberately putting the cart before the horse in order to destroy the prospect of peace talks. It's just his latest stalling tactic, because the Palestinians were just about to sit down to talks as early as next month.

 

Edited December 13, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

 

A bit of commentary from locals doesn't quite add up to the general statement appearing in the headline. The author conveniently skirts around just how complex relations are between Christian and Muslim Palestinians, and paints some rosy unity painting, without raising much questions, doubts, context or history.

 

It is quite telling that for the most part, Trump's move failed (and luckily so) to generate the same level of rage as the previous Jerusalem-related crisis did. Differences contributing to this have to do with perceptions of these instances. From a Palestinian point of view, the Temple Mount crisis was easier to frame as a religious confrontation, and the "instigating" party was Israel and it's security forces. Further, there were actual changes introduced into everyday reality. Therefore, it was also much easier to tap on both religious and national sentiment to fuel protests.

 

For all the "days of rage" declared following Trump's statement, the level of participation and intensity of clashes are not on par with the previous crisis. In comparison, there is no actual direct "threat" to the Holy Places, the "instigating" party is thousands of miles away, and nothing actually changed on the ground.

 

Of course, there are efforts to inflame the already volatile situation by engaging in religious rhetoric, but so far, not a whole lot of that seems to take hold. Hopefully, it will remain so.

 

Despite the piece's tone and the few quotes embellishing it, ignoring issues between Christian and Muslim Palestinians is a bit rich. Notably, the author does not dwell on the dwindling numbers of Palestinians Christians and certain related causes. And even the presentation offered is misleading - Palestinian Christian's numbers are uniform in all the areas specified, especially so in the Gaza Strip (ruled by Hamas), where they also do not "punch above their weight" (both in terms of numbers and "punching above their weight", Israel would be a way better example).

 

Nor does the author relate doubt about Palestinian Christians' loyalty to the "Cause" being a rather prevalent sentiment, or their standing apprehension of creating communal issues with the Muslim majority.

 

That Trump's statement "stirred deep feelings" among Palestinian Christians is probable. Like all Palestinians, issues related to Jerusalem, touch them on a political-national level. Are these much to do with their religion? Doubt it. And seriously, turning off the lights of a Christmas Tree in a central public place is "support"? More like knowing full well how keeping it on will be interpreted and not bear either consequences or costs of replacing said tree and lights.

 

The 59-year-old Palestinian interviewed may have been too young to remember that under previous management (Jordanian occupation and annexation,1949-1967) Christians did not fare all that well in Jerusalem, if not quite as badly as Jews (well, Jewish sites, at any rate, the Jews themselves were expelled). More about this can be found here. The relative peace between Christian and Muslim Palestinians (at least in Jerusalem and Bethlehem) is in some part due to the new sovereign (Israel).

 

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, dexterm said:

The peace process has stalled because Israel continues to build Jewish only colonies in the illegally occupied West Bank. Like promising to divide a pizza fairly at the same time as you are eating it.

 

Netanyahu's demand for recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's undivided capital was supposed to be delayed for final status negotiations, not a precondition. So that's a no brainer non starter.

 

Netanyahu's demand for recognition as a Jewish State is silly for 3 reasons, and very sinister for a 4th:

 

1) How can Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish State when Israelis can't even agree amongst themselves where their eastern border with a Palestinian state should be, so why should Israel ask the Palestinians to do so.

 

2) Domestically Israel can call itself what it likes: the Jewish Republic of Israel. Just as Iran calls itself the Islamic Republic or the Congo, the Democratic Republic of the Congo, but it doesn't demand surrounding countries must recognize as such to be allowed to be a peaceful neighbor.

 

3) How can you legislate yourself as a Jewish State when a sizable portion of your citizens are non Jewish, and if Israel annexes even more land, the Palestinians may actually outnumber Jews. It would make Israeli Palestinians instant 2nd class non Jewish citizens in a Jewish state.

 

4) Seems a harmless enough demand from Netanyahu, but if you want to know what Netanyahu really means by a Jewish State have a look at some of the very nasty ramifications that will lead from The Basic Law (Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People.) that he has been promoting for the last 3 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law_proposal:_Israel_as_the_Nation-State_of_the_Jewish_People#Public_debate

It's not yet finalized, but Palestinians would clearly be crazy to agree to it.

It is a purely racist/religionist law. They cannot even decide whether to put the word democracy in it, defining Israel as a "Jewish and Democratic" state. 

 

Such a Basic Law will overide any other law, like a constitution does, and would open the floodgates for many other proposed apartheid style laws that the Israeli Supreme Court will then no longer be able to counter, which currently upsets the right wing nationalists.
 
Avigdor Lieberman, Israeli Defense Minister, has already demanded that Israeli Arabs take loyalty oaths, and if not..ethnically cleanse them. Will it allow Israel to jail or expel citizens Jewish and Palestinians who voice criticism of the Jewish State?

 

And if Netanyahu is doing this to preclude any future claims on Israel,  he could simply put a clause in a final status treaty, and make the agreement, as Trump said, "acceptable to both sides."

 

 The bottom line of course is that Netanyahu is wasting his time demanding these preconditions, because he knows full well the Palestinians won't agree to them and with good reason as outlined above. Even if in a moment of madness the Palestinians agreed to Netanyahu's demands,  what guarantee is there that they will receive in return any Palestinian state at all, having thrown away all their bargaining chips.

 

Netanyahu is deliberately putting the cart before the horse in order to destroy the prospect of peace talks. It's just his latest stalling tactic, because the Palestinians were just about to sit down to talks as early as next month.

 

 

The peace process was not stalled solely because of Israel's ongoing illegal settlement effort in the West Bank. Presenting a false, simplistic and one-sided version as fact is not going to change reality. The Palestinians cannot be absolved from any responsibility for intransigence or engaging in delaying and obstruction moves, propaganda posts notwithstanding. Further, you comment is entirely correct - there were times during various phases of negotiations in which Israel withheld (partially, at least) construction activities.

 

The Israeli quest for recognition of Jerusalem as the country's capital predates Netanyahu, spinning it as his "demand" is, again, misleading. As for making up negotiation rules, can't see much complaints about Palestinian demands and preconditions (which even often appear in your own posts). The OP seems to imply that Trump's motivations in making his announcement were not solely focused no Netanyahu's supposed "demands" or wishes.

 

Netanyahu's demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state is not as silly as it may sound, and considering we just had a lengthy exchange, in which most of the "points" raised were addressed. Lets walk through it again:

 

The demand that the Palestinian recognize Israel as a Jewish state, relates to blocking possible future claims by the Palestinians. This stems from repeated instances in which the Palestinian leaders made statements citing reasoning based on Islamic teachings and scripture - to the effect that agreements could be undone, or not respected, and that "Muslim" land, cannot be handed over to infidels and such.

 

1) The issue of border definition (even disregarding the inaccurate description provided) is not germane to the issue. The recognition would apply to Israel's territory as will be agreed upon, rather than be the determining element in shaping the borders.

 

2) The demand has nothing to do with Israel "calling itself what it like" (as explained above), or with "surrounding countries". It was not raised when Israel signed peace agreements with either Egypt or Jordan. The reason being that these two countries have not made relevant territorial claims. The Palestinians do, and hence this demand is specific, rather than general.

 

3) The demand does not relate to domestic changes in Israel (and hence, to the status of its Arab citizens), but to blocking possible Palestinian future claims. Israel is already a Jewish state, and if one was to adopt bogus "point" #2, it could determine its domestic issues anyway. The issue of recognizing Israel as a Jewish state is tied to the peace process, which will not involve one-sided annexation, but rather settle things.

 

4) The issue of Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state predates the legislation mentioned. And as pointed out repeatedly, does not address the same issues. As expected, no mention of the legislation bogged in early stages for a long while now, due to its controversial nature. Going on and on about a law that does not exist is all very well, but does not change its status.I will continue to doubt the above exhibits an in depth insight into Netanyahu's motivation with this regard (and others). The Palestinians are not asked to agree, accept or recognize this legislation - but another issue (as specified above), which falls under a similar heading, that's all. As an aside, cannot recall that much critical vehemence regarding either the principals Hamas stands for or the those appearing the Palestinian constitution (for example, article 4(2) - "The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be the main source of legislation.") - double standards for  the win.

 

So neither quite as "silly", nor "sinister" as advertised.

[Scott]

Troll post removed.  

[dexterm]

16 hours ago, Morch said:

 

The peace process was not stalled solely because of Israel's ongoing illegal settlement effort in the West Bank. Presenting a false, simplistic and one-sided version as fact is not going to change reality. The Palestinians cannot be absolved from any responsibility for intransigence or engaging in delaying and obstruction moves, propaganda posts notwithstanding. Further, you comment is entirely correct - there were times during various phases of negotiations in which Israel withheld (partially, at least) construction activities.

 

The Israeli quest for recognition of Jerusalem as the country's capital predates Netanyahu, spinning it as his "demand" is, again, misleading. As for making up negotiation rules, can't see much complaints about Palestinian demands and preconditions (which even often appear in your own posts). The OP seems to imply that Trump's motivations in making his announcement were not solely focused no Netanyahu's supposed "demands" or wishes.

 

Netanyahu's demand that the Palestinians recognize Israel as a Jewish state is not as silly as it may sound, and considering we just had a lengthy exchange, in which most of the "points" raised were addressed. Lets walk through it again:

 

The demand that the Palestinian recognize Israel as a Jewish state, relates to blocking possible future claims by the Palestinians. This stems from repeated instances in which the Palestinian leaders made statements citing reasoning based on Islamic teachings and scripture - to the effect that agreements could be undone, or not respected, and that "Muslim" land, cannot be handed over to infidels and such.

 

1) The issue of border definition (even disregarding the inaccurate description provided) is not germane to the issue. The recognition would apply to Israel's territory as will be agreed upon, rather than be the determining element in shaping the borders.

 

2) The demand has nothing to do with Israel "calling itself what it like" (as explained above), or with "surrounding countries". It was not raised when Israel signed peace agreements with either Egypt or Jordan. The reason being that these two countries have not made relevant territorial claims. The Palestinians do, and hence this demand is specific, rather than general.

 

3) The demand does not relate to domestic changes in Israel (and hence, to the status of its Arab citizens), but to blocking possible Palestinian future claims. Israel is already a Jewish state, and if one was to adopt bogus "point" #2, it could determine its domestic issues anyway. The issue of recognizing Israel as a Jewish state is tied to the peace process, which will not involve one-sided annexation, but rather settle things.

 

4) The issue of Palestinian recognition of Israel as a Jewish state predates the legislation mentioned. And as pointed out repeatedly, does not address the same issues. As expected, no mention of the legislation bogged in early stages for a long while now, due to its controversial nature. Going on and on about a law that does not exist is all very well, but does not change its status.I will continue to doubt the above exhibits an in depth insight into Netanyahu's motivation with this regard (and others). The Palestinians are not asked to agree, accept or recognize this legislation - but another issue (as specified above), which falls under a similar heading, that's all. As an aside, cannot recall that much critical vehemence regarding either the principals Hamas stands for or the those appearing the Palestinian constitution (for example, article 4(2) - "The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be the main source of legislation.") - double standards for  the win.

 

So neither quite as "silly", nor "sinister" as advertised.

The proposed Basic Law may not have passed all stages yet...so what... it shows exactly what Netanyahu means by a Jewish State. A law which even you find "controversial", so how do you expect Palestinians to accept a Jewish State that proposes such a racist law?

 

Your claim that it is necessary for Palestinians to agree to Israel being a Jewish State to avoid future claims is absolutely spurious nonsense.  It's a sledgehammer to crack a nut. You can iron out all issues including the Palestinian right of return or compensation in a peace conference. And if either the Israelis or the Palestinians aren't happy with the final draft...simple..don't sign it! 

 All you need do is insert an ironclad clause in a peace treaty to the effect these matters are now concluded. Far more effective anyway than the vagueness of Jewish state, whatever that means, which leaves room for Israel to move the goalposts later. You have argued till the cows come home about the necessity of recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, but have never clarified what you mean by that.

 

Netanyahu's demand before they even start negotiations is a poison pill, without any concessions whatsoever from the Israelis and no guarantees at all it will help them achieve a Palestinian state. Nitty gritty issues such as the OP status of Jerusalem should all be left till a peace conference

Edited December 14, 2017 by dexterm

[Morch]

9 minutes ago, dexterm said:

The proposed Basic Law may not have passed all stages yet...so what... it shows exactly what Netanyahu means by a Jewish State. A law which even you find "controversial", so how do you expect Palestinians to accept a Jewish State that proposes such a racist law?

 

Your claim that it is necessary for Palestinians to agree to Israel being a Jewish State to avoid future claims is absolutely spurious nonsense.  It's a sledgehammer to crack a nut. You can iron out all issues including the Palestinian right of return or compensation in a peace conference. And if either the Israelis or the Palestinians aren't happy with the final draft...simple..don't sign it! 

 All you need do is insert an ironclad clause in a peace treaty to the effect these matters are now concluded. Far more effective anyway than the vagueness of Jewish state, whatever that means, which leaves room for Israel to move the goalposts later. You have argued till the cows come home about the necessity of recognition of Israel as a Jewish state, but have never clarified what you mean by that.

 

Netanyahu's demand before they even start negotiations is a poison pill, without any concessions whatsoever from the Israelis and no guarantees at all it will help them achieve a Palestinian state. Nitty gritty issues such as the OP status of Jerusalem should all be left till a peace conference

 

You are intentionally conflating between two different issues. The demand associated with the negotiations is not the same as the proposed legislation. One is a construct aimed at addressing possible future claims by the Palestinians, and the other is a domestic legislation effort.

 

I reject your "even you" nonsense, which is aimed at misrepresenting my views. And the same goes for the repeated  "you claim that it is necessary" - I did not opine on whether it is necessary or not, and this was made clear on the previous topics. In a similar vein, claiming that I did not explain the rationale for this demand or what it implies is patently false. Stop trolling.

 

The "questions" posed are irrelevant, and reflect the intentional muddying of the waters. Not only this, they do not even conform to the "reasoning" presented in your previous posts.

 

The picture you attempt to portray ignores that both sides, not just Israel, raise preconditions. Further, the context for this specific demand, and how it relates to past agreements signed and their followup was detailed in previous posts. It is not a matter of let's see how things pan out - Palestinian leaders' actions and words already indicated that this will be an issue unless addressed. The same goes for your simplistic view of inserting an "ironclad clause" - the reasoning followed by aforementioned Palestinian leaders relied on Islamic precedence and teachings, which may allow for such supposed "Ironclad clauses" to be ignored with regard to certain issues.

 

The alluded to "vagueness" does not apply with regard to the negotiation demand - in this instance, it is rather clear. It implies that lands which will be decided upon as falling under Israeli control will be considered "Jewish land". Again, related to definitions of ownership as discussed earlier. The proposed legislation, which relates to how Israel defines itself can be said to be "vague", but that's both a different issue and one of the reasons the legislation does not materialize. Nothing to do with moving goalposts, not even the same game.

 

[ELVIS123456]

22 hours ago, hawker9000 said:

Oh.  They're united are they?  Of course they are.  <yawn>

 

 For years Palestinians stonewall the "peace process" by refusing to ever acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state, and get all weepy when Israel finally said enough and declared Jerusalem its capital, and a U.S. president finally simply recognized it instead of penning "executive orders" - something which Congress actually legislated back in 1995!   And Obama's habit of taking a knee for every world leader except Netanyahu also now reaps what was sowed.

 

Jew-haters everywhere are obviously going to scream bloody murder.   Well birds gotta' fly; fish gotta' swim.

 

100% agree. Trump haters are gotta hate. 

Anyone mention that in 1995 a resolution was passed by US Congress recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel and declaring that the US Embassy should be moved there too? Every POTUS since then has declined to sign it off on the basis of 'reconciliation and/or on the basis of 'peace talks'.  For over 20 years the Palestinians/Hamas/Syria/Jordan etc. have been delaying - they still refuse to accept Israel, and it is still their official position to abolish it.  Trump is doing to this subject exactly the same as he is doing to all others - he is ignoring the libtard/UN/globalist bulldust and is making pragmatic decisions based on the best interests of USA, and its Allies. In due course he will also move the US Embassy to Jerusalem - which is the 'official' Capital of Israel.  And he will continue to ignore the libtard loony left-wing protests about Armageddon and 'the end of Peace' protests. 

 

Making Jerusalem the capital of Israel reflects reality.  Jerusalem was a Jewish/Hebrew city thousands of years before the Islamic faith even began.  The Crusades were in part about taking Jerusalem back from the Muslims, when the Muslim ruler at that time had ordered all non-Muslim churches to be destroyed. Then 200 years later the Muslims conquered the City and then the Ottoman Empire and then the British took over after WW1. During all that time Jews and Muslims (and many others) lived in the City, with varying degrees of conflict and peace over the many many years the City.

 

Following WW2 the idiots in the UN declared that Jerusalem would be split into two Cities - East as Muslim and West as Jewish.  As usual the UN screwed it all up and violence escalated between the two groups.  The UN idiots decided to setup Jerusalem as a partial Jewish City surrounded by Muslim States - with a road going to the new Jewish State they had created.  Jordan (Palestinians) ransacked the ancient synagogues, libraries and centers of religious study in the Old City Of Jerusalem, 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed. Those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals. Israel made appeals to the UN and the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response - only lots of appeasement attempts. Eventually Israel has enough and in the 6 day war they recaptured all of Jerusalem and many parts of Jordan and Syria where Palestinians lived - they never had their own Country/State (some of which they gave back).  Some people say Israel stole lands belonging to the Muslims in Jordan/Syria (including East Jerusalem), but others say they took back what was originally theirs.  Either way - like it or not - Jerusalem now 'belongs' to Israel - a fact of history.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As they say a camel is a horse designed by a bureaucratic committee.

 

 

 

 

[dexterm]

50 minutes ago, ELVIS123456 said:

100% agree. Trump haters are gotta hate. 

Anyone mention that in 1995 a resolution was passed by US Congress recognizing Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel and declaring that the US Embassy should be moved there too? Every POTUS since then has declined to sign it off on the basis of 'reconciliation and/or on the basis of 'peace talks'.  For over 20 years the Palestinians/Hamas/Syria/Jordan etc. have been delaying - they still refuse to accept Israel, and it is still their official position to abolish it.  Trump is doing to this subject exactly the same as he is doing to all others - he is ignoring the libtard/UN/globalist bulldust and is making pragmatic decisions based on the best interests of USA, and its Allies. In due course he will also move the US Embassy to Jerusalem - which is the 'official' Capital of Israel.  And he will continue to ignore the libtard loony left-wing protests about Armageddon and 'the end of Peace' protests. 

 

Making Jerusalem the capital of Israel reflects reality.  Jerusalem was a Jewish/Hebrew city thousands of years before the Islamic faith even began.  The Crusades were in part about taking Jerusalem back from the Muslims, when the Muslim ruler at that time had ordered all non-Muslim churches to be destroyed. Then 200 years later the Muslims conquered the City and then the Ottoman Empire and then the British took over after WW1. During all that time Jews and Muslims (and many others) lived in the City, with varying degrees of conflict and peace over the many many years the City.

 

Following WW2 the idiots in the UN declared that Jerusalem would be split into two Cities - East as Muslim and West as Jewish.  As usual the UN screwed it all up and violence escalated between the two groups.  The UN idiots decided to setup Jerusalem as a partial Jewish City surrounded by Muslim States - with a road going to the new Jewish State they had created.  Jordan (Palestinians) ransacked the ancient synagogues, libraries and centers of religious study in the Old City Of Jerusalem, 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed. Those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals. Israel made appeals to the UN and the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response - only lots of appeasement attempts. Eventually Israel has enough and in the 6 day war they recaptured all of Jerusalem and many parts of Jordan and Syria where Palestinians lived - they never had their own Country/State (some of which they gave back).  Some people say Israel stole lands belonging to the Muslims in Jordan/Syria (including East Jerusalem), but others say they took back what was originally theirs.  Either way - like it or not - Jerusalem now 'belongs' to Israel - a fact of history.

 

 

 

 

 

 

As they say a camel is a horse designed by a bureaucratic committee.

 

 

 

 

Nonsense old pseudo history chestnut debunked many times on this forum. 

 

You may score a few points in a high school debate, but this puerile nonsense is hardly going to sway Palestinians. 
'Wow guys, we've had it wrong all this time. Don't you realize we were just the temporary caretakers on annual contracts of Jerusalem and Palestine for the last 2,000 plus years , waiting for the true owners of the city to arrive on an El Al flight from New York.'
That's how silly your argument sounds to a Palestinian. Get real.

 

The bottom line is Palestinians are not about to abandon their rightful  claims to Jerusalem and a Palestinian state just because some clown 6,000 miles away says so.

 

BTW it's the essentially anti Semitic loony right wing Christian Evangelicals supporting Trump and hoping for Armageddon in Jerusalem, so they can convert Jews to Christianity.

Edited December 14, 2017 by dexterm

[dexterm]

Looks like talks are now stalled due to Trump's Jerusalem shenanigans, so hopefully some quality journalist can find time to hardtalk Netanyahu and ask him exactly what he means by a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital, and how that fits in with Palestinians' aspirations. 

 

And hopefully he will reply with a lot less waffle than some posters on this forum.

[Redline]

It will only unnecessarily feed the fire in the region, and justify the Middle  East, Iran, Syria, Hezbollah...the need to unite in war against Israel and the USA

More manufactured conflict

[johnnyonesock]

On 12/13/2017 at 2:09 PM, hawker9000 said:

Oh.  They're united are they?  Of course they are.  <yawn>

 

 For years Palestinians stonewall the "peace process" by refusing to ever acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state, and get all weepy when Israel finally said enough and declared Jerusalem its capital, and a U.S. president finally simply recognized it instead of penning "executive orders" - something which Congress actually legislated back in 1995!   And Obama's habit of taking a knee for every world leader except Netanyahu also now reaps what was sowed.

 

Jew-haters everywhere are obviously going to scream bloody murder.   Well birds gotta' fly; fish gotta' swim.

 

"For years Palestinians stonewall the "peace process" by refusing to ever acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state"

Palestinians can never agree to this demand to accept the Zionists’ state “right to exist”. To do so is effectively to claim that Israel had a “right” to take Arab land, while Arabs had no right to their own land. It is effectively to claim that Israel had a “right” to ethnically cleanse Palestine, while Arabs had no right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in their own homes, on their own land.

The constant use of the term “right to exist” in discourse today serves one specific purpose: It is designed to obfuscate the reality that it is the Jews that have denied the Arab right to self-determination, and not vice versa, and to otherwise attempt to legitimize Israeli crimes against the Palestinians, both historical and contemporary.

[ELVIS123456]

I cant say it any better than this:

 

 

 

[Morch]

20 hours ago, dexterm said:

Looks like talks are now stalled due to Trump's Jerusalem shenanigans, so hopefully some quality journalist can find time to hardtalk Netanyahu and ask him exactly what he means by a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital, and how that fits in with Palestinians' aspirations. 

 

And hopefully he will reply with a lot less waffle than some posters on this forum.

 

If the talks stalled because of Trump's announcement, then questions should be asked to address that. Instead, what you offer are ongoing spins based on either false claims or a misunderstanding of facts. The "waffle" is more about going on about anything that fits the pet agenda rather than actually addressing facts or even the topic.

[Morch]

9 hours ago, johnnyonesock said:

"For years Palestinians stonewall the "peace process" by refusing to ever acknowledge Israel as a Jewish state"

Palestinians can never agree to this demand to accept the Zionists’ state “right to exist”. To do so is effectively to claim that Israel had a “right” to take Arab land, while Arabs had no right to their own land. It is effectively to claim that Israel had a “right” to ethnically cleanse Palestine, while Arabs had no right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in their own homes, on their own land.

The constant use of the term “right to exist” in discourse today serves one specific purpose: It is designed to obfuscate the reality that it is the Jews that have denied the Arab right to self-determination, and not vice versa, and to otherwise attempt to legitimize Israeli crimes against the Palestinians, both historical and contemporary.

 

Perhaps you should avoid conflating between Arabs, Palestinians, Muslims (ah, no...no Muslims mentioned in a topic which does refer to Muslims), Zionists, Jews, Israelis.

 

Recognizing Israel's right to exist is not a general statement on all Arab lands, it is not even a general statement on all Palestinian lands. It does not imply blanket rights, it does not imply total loss of rights. The rest of the accopanying hyperbole doesn't come into it as well.

 

Framing things as being one-sided is both inaccurate and leads nowhere.

[dexterm]

17 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

If the talks stalled because of Trump's announcement, then questions should be asked to address that. Instead, what you offer are ongoing spins based on either false claims or a misunderstanding of facts. The "waffle" is more about going on about anything that fits the pet agenda rather than actually addressing facts or even the topic.

Dexterm wrote..

"Looks like talks are now stalled due to Trump's Jerusalem shenanigans, so hopefully some quality journalist can find time to hardtalk Netanyahu and ask him exactly what he means by a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital, and how that fits in with Palestinians' aspirations. 

And hopefully he will reply with a lot less waffle than some posters on this forum."

 

Please tell me which words in my post are off topic and which words in your posts are on topic.

 

Seems to me you are stalking, always a personal flame and in response to my posts repeatedly writing the meaningless "spin" because you have some weird obsession always to get the last word in.

 

 

 

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, dexterm said:

Dexterm wrote..

"Looks like talks are now stalled due to Trump's Jerusalem shenanigans, so hopefully some quality journalist can find time to hardtalk Netanyahu and ask him exactly what he means by a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital, and how that fits in with Palestinians' aspirations. 

And hopefully he will reply with a lot less waffle than some posters on this forum."

 

Please tell me which words in my post are off topic and which words in your posts are on topic.

 

Seems to me you are stalking, always a personal flame and in response to my posts repeatedly writing the meaningless "spin" because you have some weird obsession always to get the last word in.

 

 

 

 

Lets try again. Essentially your "argument" is: 

 

1. Talks stalked due to Trump's Jerusalem "shenanigans"...

 

...hence (?)

 

2. Journalists should ask Netanyahu what a Jewish state with Jerusalem as its capital means, in relation to Palestinian views.

 

There is nothing which suggests how the latter logically stems from the former.

 

The topic is about "Israel as a Jewish state", this angle was introduced by yourself - and in a misleading manner, which was addressed.

 

Commenting on your posts is not "stalking", even when it exposes the fallacies and inaccuracies they contain. "Spin" would be a polite term for the ongoing attempts to make topics a platform for a pet political agenda, rather than actually discussing the OP's themselves. The "last word in" nonsense is amusing - almost like complaining about not letting you having the "last word in".

 

[dexterm]

Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, even though he allows himself some wriggle room by saying nothing's changed; we don't recognize any final borders in Jerusalem yet.

 

Most Palestinians, and leaders in the Islamic world and globally, regard this as Trump dog whistle code for taking Israel's side. Hence the OP furore. And so does Netanyahu, because he heartily supports Trump's call.

 

From previous speeches, but very craftily not in his response to this Trump's announcement, Netanyahu has called for Palestinian recognition of Jerusalem as the eternal and undivided capital of a Jewish state.

 

So simple...some quality journalist should ask Netanyahu to restate what he thinks recognition of Jerusalem means to him and what he thinks Trump means, and why he endorses Trump's move.

 

So that we are all on the same page.

[Scott]

Inflammatory, troll post reported and removed.  

[Morch]

7 hours ago, dexterm said:

Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, even though he allows himself some wriggle room by saying nothing's changed; we don't recognize any final borders in Jerusalem yet.

 

Most Palestinians, and leaders in the Islamic world and globally, regard this as Trump dog whistle code for taking Israel's side. Hence the OP furore. And so does Netanyahu, because he heartily supports Trump's call.

 

From previous speeches, but very craftily not in his response to this Trump's announcement, Netanyahu has called for Palestinian recognition of Jerusalem as the eternal and undivided capital of a Jewish state.

 

So simple...some quality journalist should ask Netanyahu to restate what he thinks recognition of Jerusalem means to him and what he thinks Trump means, and why he endorses Trump's move.

 

So that we are all on the same page.

 

So the "reasoning" for the faulty "argument" presented previously is basically that Trump made his statement, therefore you will use it to bring up whatever semi-related issue on whatever semi-related topic. Nothing more. As pointed out, it seems that for some, these topics exist just as a handy platform to air repetitive extreme political agendas.

 

The topic, unless you missed it is about supposed solidarity between Palestinian Christians and Muslims. And not, what a surprise, about demands for recognition of Israel as a Jewish state or your misrepresentations of such.

 

That you cannot or  will not address the simple fact that Trump's announcement does include a clear reference to caveats regarding the final status issue, or that the announcement does not have any actual immediate effects, doesn't change facts.

 

You either don't care which in which topic you toss your bile, or get confused between different OPs. This one is not about what you go on about. And you have not even addressed the main theme of the OP to begin with....just the same endless stream of propaganda posts.

 

It's not a matter of being on the same page. It's about you contempt for staying on the page when it doesn't suit your pet agenda.

 

[dexterm]

5 hours ago, Morch said:

 

So the "reasoning" for the faulty "argument" presented previously is basically that Trump made his statement, therefore you will use it to bring up whatever semi-related issue on whatever semi-related topic. Nothing more. As pointed out, it seems that for some, these topics exist just as a handy platform to air repetitive extreme political agendas.

 

The topic, unless you missed it is about supposed solidarity between Palestinian Christians and Muslims. And not, what a surprise, about demands for recognition of Israel as a Jewish state or your misrepresentations of such.

 

That you cannot or  will not address the simple fact that Trump's announcement does include a clear reference to caveats regarding the final status issue, or that the announcement does not have any actual immediate effects, doesn't change facts.

 

You either don't care which in which topic you toss your bile, or get confused between different OPs. This one is not about what you go on about. And you have not even addressed the main theme of the OP to begin with....just the same endless stream of propaganda posts.

 

It's not a matter of being on the same page. It's about you contempt for staying on the page when it doesn't suit your pet agenda.

 

Glad you at least quoted my post in full for a change, so that forum members can see how economcal with the truth you are.

 

Avert your eyes just a few inches up the screen

Morch writes...
That you cannot or  will not address the simple fact that Trump's announcement does include a clear reference to caveats regarding the final status issue, or that the announcement does not have any actual immediate effects, doesn't change facts.

 

Which is precisely what I wrote..
"Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, even though he allows himself some wriggle room by saying nothing's changed; we don't recognize any final borders in Jerusalem yet."

 

So how is what I wrote different from you? I think it is you who is confused, and is clearly misrepresenting and obsessively stalking me. 

 

I suggest you read the OP again
"We are one palestinian christians and muslims unite against Trumps Jerusalem call"

 

Which is precisely what I wrote about.

Looks like its just you and I who noticed Trump's caveats (I called it wriggle room). Even the BBC has focused on Trump's dog whistle recognition in line with Netanyahu's vision for Jerusalem.

 

"Violence has soared since Mr Trump's declaration on the contested city.
Israel regards the whole of Jerusalem as its indivisible capital, while Palestinians claim the eastern sector as the capital of a future state.
Mr Trump's affirmation of the Israeli position was condemned across the Arab and Muslim world, and hailed in Israel."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42371503

[Morch]

9 hours ago, dexterm said:

Glad you at least quoted my post in full for a change, so that forum members can see how economcal with the truth you are.

 

Avert your eyes just a few inches up the screen

Morch writes...
That you cannot or  will not address the simple fact that Trump's announcement does include a clear reference to caveats regarding the final status issue, or that the announcement does not have any actual immediate effects, doesn't change facts.

 

Which is precisely what I wrote..
"Trump recognizes Jerusalem as Israel's capital, even though he allows himself some wriggle room by saying nothing's changed; we don't recognize any final borders in Jerusalem yet."

 

So how is what I wrote different from you? I think it is you who is confused, and is clearly misrepresenting and obsessively stalking me. 

 

I suggest you read the OP again
"We are one palestinian christians and muslims unite against Trumps Jerusalem call"

 

Which is precisely what I wrote about.

Looks like its just you and I who noticed Trump's caveats (I called it wriggle room). Even the BBC has focused on Trump's dog whistle recognition in line with Netanyahu's vision for Jerusalem.

 

"Violence has soared since Mr Trump's declaration on the contested city.
Israel regards the whole of Jerusalem as its indivisible capital, while Palestinians claim the eastern sector as the capital of a future state.
Mr Trump's affirmation of the Israeli position was condemned across the Arab and Muslim world, and hailed in Israel."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-42371503

 

Spare me your nonsense (fat chance...).

 

That you dismiss the actual content and words of Trump's announcement, quick to term things that do not align with your views as "wriggle room", while engaging in a deluge of interpretations based on...well, nothing much, is pretty much what I was referring to. Spin it all you like. You do not actually address these points, you dismiss them - not quite the same thing. And you cannot (or will not) address them, because they do not fit the narrative pushed, nor do they provide nearly enough fuel for your bile.

 

The OP deals with supposed solidarity between Christian and Muslim Palestinians, in connection with Trump's announcement. I fail to see anything which directly relates to relations between the two faiths in your posts, which instead focus on biased and factually incorrect interpretations of other issues. Spin this one as well, won't make your posts "precisely" on topic and not change the fact that you use the topic to highlight other issues.

 

The BBC link provided does not deal with Christian and Muslim relations in this context, as well.