Building a House in Issan

[Cashboy]

I have decided to attempt to build a retirement home in a village in Issan.

I have so far spent considerable time designing the house after looking at other developments and walking around Global House and other builders merchants to see what is available.

From this information I have attempted to design a simple house.

As I did not have a CAD decided to do it in excel worksheet making each square 10cm x 10cm.

 

I have hopefully designed the house simple with regard to

1)  design of the roof (no overlaps where I see so many problems with leaks)

2)  steel roof structure that I have supported on the main concrete posts to simplify construction and less chance of structural problems.

3)  distances apartof the concrete posts in order to support standard off the shelf concrete floor beams.

4)  placed all the bathroms (3 No.) on one side of the building with the kitchen nearby to simplify the wastes to the sewage.

5)  ceilings of 3.4 m downstairs and 3 m upstairs negating hopefully the need for air conditioning.

6)  Designed the house to be able to be changed around internally if need be such as two one bedroom condos upstairs or as the design is now one condo and 3 bedrooms and a bathroom.

7)  Downstairs is designed that as the house is on a corner plot could use a room as an office / shop

8)  I am going to keep the outside looks of the building pretty plain because I want to keep my reputation as a poor farang in the village.

I have ended up with a 265 M2 house on two floors.

9)  I am going to keep the downstairs ceilings open (i.e. no suspended ceiling) for the height and to keep the cost down and I think more hygenic.

10)  The external windows and doors can still be decided on once the skeleton and roof are on.

I was looking at a budget of construction to about 2,500,000 bt. I suspect reading the nightmares that that could reach 3,000,000 bt easily.

 

I have read some of this DIY forum and appreciate the knowledge that people have given on it.

I am hoping to have some of your knowledge into me building this property.

 

So first question is; are the drawings adequate for contractors to understand?

Do I need any permission to build this property?  so far I am under the impression that the local chief needs to be informed and the roof plate shouldn't be higher than 8 metres from the ground.

 

I intend to build the building in 4 stages

1) skeleton  =  comprising concrete base, concrete posts, concrete floor support beams and precast concrete floor beams, staircase and bathroom floors with sewage and water supplies in

2) steel roof with c-pack concrete roof tiles and guttering

3) outside walls and internal walls

4) windows and doors

5) tile floors

6) install sanitary ware in bathrooms

7) construct kitchen units

Edited December 17, 2017 by Cashboy

[isaanbanhou]

I took a  floor plan and picture off the net and took it to an architect.  We made a number of changes, added 20 m2 and for 10,000 baht got a set of blue prints and a materials list.  I think this was about the same price the original company charged for their plan without customizing.  The completed house was exactly as I had hoped.

[Crossy]

Have you done any structural calculations (beam and steel sizes etc) or are you expecting your contractor to do this for you?

 

What are the planning office's requirements in your area, you may need a certified architect to sign off on the design.

 

Have a look here http://www.crossy.co.uk/Thai_House_Plans/index.html and take a trip to your local ampur office, they will have books of free plans (including the ones on my site) already certified and ready to build. You should be able to find something with approximately the right dimensions. Provided you don't make structural changes you won't need to get an architect / structural engineer to sign off on the drawings. This is what we did.

 

I would build a gabled roof, you can put large vents in the gables easily to keep the roof space (relatively) cool.

 

 

[sirineou]

I agree with Crossy, Plenty of house plans out there,  Many of them free, as the government plans are , but if you don't find what you need there , there are also many inexpensive plans for purchase. I paid 3500 baht for the plans to my house, and used them as a base to make adjustments and customised them to my needs.

If you are planning to invest 2-3 milion baht I think it would be unwise not to invest a very small  percentage  to get proper plans.

Google sketch up is free and with plenty of YouTube tutorials to help get you up to speed  fast.

Below is a screen shot of a model I made for a friend on Sketch up of model #8 of Crossy's plans with relatively litle training and practice

 

 

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by sirineou

[Cashboy]

5 hours ago, Crossy said:

Have you done any structural calculations (beam and steel sizes etc) or are you expecting your contractor to do this for you?

 

What are the planning office's requirements in your area, you may need a certified architect to sign off on the design.

 

Have a look here http://www.crossy.co.uk/Thai_House_Plans/index.html and take a trip to your local ampur office, they will have books of free plans (including the ones on my site) already certified and ready to build. You should be able to find something with approximately the right dimensions. Provided you don't make structural changes you won't need to get an architect / structural engineer to sign off on the drawings. This is what we did.

 

I would build a gabled roof, you can put large vents in the gables easily to keep the roof space (relatively) cool.

 

 

I have not done any structural calculations.

The calculations are a 10 minute job for a structural engineer regarding the concrete /steel posts and horizontal floor beam supports.

The steel roof is really simple design and calculations because the main support bars are all directly on concrete posts.

 

The Thai girl had been looking at houses in the village and nearby villages of houses built.  She came accross a development being built and had been emailing me pictures of the work.

The engineers work looked neat and he does a lot of work for the government and all is certified.

The giveaway I find is the way they plan and construct the concrete staircases.  I have seen some total disasters in the villages on new construction.

 

I had this engineer look at my drawings and visit the site yesterday and asked him for a price to construct the skeleton and the roof.

I define the skeleton as the concrete/steel posts;  floor 1 concrete slab;  concrete / steel beams to support the prefabricated floor beams on floor 2; installation of the floor beams on the 2nd floor rooms; construction of the two bathroom floors in steel/concrete; construction of the staircase in steel/concrete;  construction of the steel roof frame and insulated and tiled with concrete tiles.

 

I was told by this engineer and and as I expected as per my drawings given to him that:

Concrete /steel posts will be 20cm x 20cm.

Concrete / steel horizontal beams will be 20cm x 40cm to support the prefabricated floor beams.

The cost will be higher than normal because most developments are built with 3.5 metres or 4 metres maximum post to post in house builds.

However, which I also expected, the raw bar would be 16mm (much heavier than normal) and therefore the cost would be substancially more.

The works would be certified at the government.

He gave me a quote of 1,594,000 bt for 265 M2 skeleton and roof complete  (translated into English):

 

1,594,000 bt

265 square meters

1.Eaves Two in One with Insulation

2.roof (cpack)

3. Ferroconcrete

4. Rafters c4       `

5. Steel beam

6. Iron Fist 12 mm.(1.2x1.2)

7. Steel pole 16mm. = 4 line

8. Steel beam bathroom

9. Steel ladder

10. Steel ash c4….

 

Payment would be in 4 parts but 20% (300,000 bt) up front for materials to start.

 

I actually had a figure of 1,200,000 bt in my head so a little surprised.

 

The Thai girl is going to get a quote from another engineer to see if 1,594,000 bt is high.

 

I would prefer this engineer and am wondering if I should suggest paying him a project management fee, him recommending the labour and us pay for the materials to the builders merchants and labour directly.

 

Any suggestions or opinions on the price?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Cashboy

[Crossy]

IMHO 6k Baht per square metre before walls etc. sounds somewhere near the right ball park if slightly on the high side (much depends on the roof tiles chosen).

 

I await other opinions 

 

 

[Cashboy]

4 hours ago, sirineou said:

I agree with Crossy, Plenty of house plans out there,  Many of them free, as the government plans are , but if you don't find what you need there , there are also many inexpensive plans for purchase. I paid 3500 baht for the plans to my house, and used them as a base to make adjustments and customised them to my needs.

If you are planning to invest 2-3 milion baht I think it would be unwise not to invest a very small  percentage  to get proper plans.

Google sketch up is free and with plenty of YouTube tutorials to help get you up to speed  fast.

Below is a screen shot of a model I made for a friend on Sketch up of model #8 of Crossy's plans with relatively litle training and practice

 

 

 

I did look at all the free government house plans.

None of the designs were anything close to what I was looking for and I find the roofs are too complicated in both looks and against rain as I see too many leaking roofs in Thailand.

 

Regarding someone's suggestion of gables with vents; I totally agree that would be better regarding air circulation.  However  I see the rain come at steep angles and as the top floor will have suspended ceilings would not be so applicable.

[Cashboy]

3 minutes ago, Crossy said:

IMHO 6k Baht per square metre before walls etc. sounds somewhere near the right ball park if slightly on the high side (much depends on the roof tiles chosen).

 

I await other opinions 

 

 

Roof tiles would be "C Pack" standard clay tiles that everyone is using to build houses now.

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

For what it's worth...  If you haven't already, you should specify the size and quality of steel to be used.  That's where those buggers really cheat.  And, make sure they really do know and understand how to rough in the plumbing.

 

For me, the bathrooms look on the small side.  Where will you have place to put all those skin whiteners, cosmetics, lotions, gels, and everything else women have to have?

 

 

[Cashboy]

1 hour ago, bankruatsteve said:

For what it's worth...  If you haven't already, you should specify the size and quality of steel to be used.  That's where those buggers really cheat.  And, make sure they really do know and understand how to rough in the plumbing.

 

For me, the bathrooms look on the small side.  Where will you have place to put all those skin whiteners, cosmetics, lotions, gels, and everything else women have to have?

 

 

With regard to the steel; I am looking at buying all the materials. I will be using 16mm raw bar in the posts and horizontals as opposed to 12mm raw bar because the span of the horizontals accross the posts is nearly 4.5 metres.

The bathrooms at 2m x 3.5 m are big by UK standards.  The normal sized bathroom in the UK would be 1.7m x 1.5m in a new house.

[CGW]

The house design is fine, but I don't believe people give enough consideration to where you will be building the house, Isaan gets hot, very hot in the summer months.

I would be packing in as much insulation as practical during the build, using good quality, non sliding windows & doors, building blocks with a high R value & as Crossy pointed out a way to keep the roof void aired during the hot months, you want to end up with a house that is comfortable to live in obviously, the best design is of no use if the house is too hot to be enjoyable.

Also don't forget to put plenty of power points and water outlets outside the house - I did!

Good luck.

[carlyai]

I can't see the size of your outside top floor veranda, but if you intend to spend time there they need to be wide. I like 3m width.

Don't run your waste water and toilets into the same tank.

Make provision for an outside Isaan style kitchen downstairs.

Run speaker and CAT 5 computer cable when running the power cable.

I didn't, but I would also get a structural engineer, so construction joins are shown.

Make your floors one level so you don't break an ankle when you're drunk and disorderly.

Probably try to get CPAC to install your tiles. I was smart, I downloaded all the detailed CPAC instructions in Thai and gave to the non CPAC roof installer who said 'we don't do it that way in Thailand', "but but, it's written by a Thai company in the Thai language"; grins all round. So much for smartness.

 

Also, put in guttering and downpipes, going to 4" pipes underground, taking the water out to the outside street gutters (or storage tanks).

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[farmerjo]

Is the old house coming down?

 

[kamalabob2]

Cashboy:  CPAC tiles in your photo are not clay. A good cement tile and seriously consider the advise given to you by Carlyai.  Diamond is another quality roof tile that also offers professional roof installation services in Isaan. I see Thai building contractors cut down the spec on steel for roof support, floors and anywhere they can pocket money. SD40T is not the same as SD40.  Better yet SD30 is not the same strength as SD40 rebar. Weight matters when you buy steel. There is unacceptable building procedures done in Buriram and there are top quality home builders in Buriram. Go in person and bring a ladder to get up and see welding and roof building.  

[Cashboy]

On 12/19/2017 at 4:16 AM, carlyai said:

I can't see the size of your outside top floor veranda, but if you intend to spend time there they need to be wide. I like 3m width.

Don't run your waste water and toilets into the same tank.

Make provision for an outside Isaan style kitchen downstairs.

Run speaker and CAT 5 computer cable when running the power cable.

I didn't, but I would also get a structural engineer, so construction joins are shown.

Make your floors one level so you don't break an ankle when you're drunk and disorderly.

Probably try to get CPAC to install your tiles. I was smart, I downloaded all the detailed CPAC instructions in Thai and gave to the non CPAC roof installer who said 'we don't do it that way in Thailand', "but but, it's written by a Thai company in the Thai language"; grins all round. So much for smartness.

 

Also, put in guttering and downpipes, going to 4" pipes underground, taking the water out to the outside street gutters (or storage tanks).

Sent from my SM-J700F using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

Thank you for the advise.  most already thought about.

 

The toilet waste will go into a main Skum Tank and then into a Sludge Tank.

Shower and basin water will go straight into the Sludge Tank

Kitchen waste will go into a Grease Tank and then Sludge Tank.

The sludge tanks generally then seem to run into the street sewage in you builds.

[Cashboy]

On 12/19/2017 at 4:52 AM, farmerjo said:

Is the old house coming down?

 

The idea is to build the new house whilst living in the old house.

I am building a larger new house than necessary with the possibility of having an office or shop on the corner downstairs.

The upstairs is designed so that by just moving the doors around can have alternative configurations such as the drawing:

(1) one condo, three bedrooms with one bathroom.

(2) two condos and two bedrooms that use the downstairs bathroom

(3) or two large one bedroomed condos

(4) use all upstairs as the house and downstairs for business.

 

Once the new house is built my intentions are then to use the old house as a workshop for projects.

If I am happy in Issan, then I shall then pull the old house down and make downstairs for parking the pick up truck, tractor and motorbikes and be able to work on everything.  Upstairs I shall have a large room and bathroom with the possibility of using that for living in and then using the main house for business.

 

There is already an outside kitchen but I would build a new one.

I can see mainly using the kitchen in the new house for eating to avoid those times when there are lots of flies outside.

 

Edited December 21, 2017 by Cashboy

[Cashboy]

On 12/18/2017 at 8:16 AM, CGW said:

The house design is fine, but I don't believe people give enough consideration to where you will be building the house, Isaan gets hot, very hot in the summer months.

I would be packing in as much insulation as practical during the build, using good quality, non sliding windows & doors, building blocks with a high R value & as Crossy pointed out a way to keep the roof void aired during the hot months, you want to end up with a house that is comfortable to live in obviously, the best design is of no use if the house is too hot to be enjoyable.

Also don't forget to put plenty of power points and water outlets outside the house - I did!

Good luck.

I will be using 150mm thick thermolites (turbo blocks) on the outside walls except kitchen area and bathrooms.

I will not have suspended ceilings downstairs so the ceilings will end up 3.4 metres high

The roof will be insulated, the ceilings will have to have suspended ceilings.

The windows will have mosquito nets.

I am hoping to be able to keep cool with just fans.  I might install an air conditioning unit in one room if I think fans are not sufficient.

[Cashboy]

On 12/19/2017 at 5:08 AM, kamalabob2 said:

Cashboy:  CPAC tiles in your photo are not clay. A good cement tile and seriously consider the advise given to you by Carlyai.  Diamond is another quality roof tile that also offers professional roof installation services in Isaan. I see Thai building contractors cut down the spec on steel for roof support, floors and anywhere they can pocket money. SD40T is not the same as SD40.  Better yet SD30 is not the same strength as SD40 rebar. Weight matters when you buy steel. There is unacceptable building procedures done in Buriram and there are top quality home builders in Buriram. Go in person and bring a ladder to get up and see welding and roof building.  

I am under the impression that CPAC tiles are concrete tiles that look like clay like we use in the UK.

What are they made of then because i thought they were concrete?

This is a house in the village that has them on.

[sirineou]

4 minutes ago, Cashboy said:

Thank you for the advise.  most already thought about.

 

The toilet waste will go into a main Skum Tank and then into a Sludge Tank.

Shower and basin water will go straight into the Sludge Tank

Kitchen waste will go into a Grease Tank and then Sludge Tank.

The sludge tanks generally then seem to run into the street sewage in you builds.

We have two different "sludge tanks" or overflow tanks as some might call them.

Water from toilets first goes to a septic tank where bacteria break down the solids, and then liquid overflows in to a separate stage where it is absorbed into the ground. 

It is a good idea that water leaving the kitchen bathrooms , and washing machine  (grease trap for kitchen to keep grease from clogging the system) to of course not enter the Septic tank and with it's chemicals disrupt the bacterial decomposition process , but to also not be directed to the Septic overflow tank but to a separate overflow tank because if space exists, because a lot more water will be entering that portion of the system that system and it could overwhelm it both by volume and because some decomposition might still take place  even in the overflow tank, and detergent and chemical layden water can compromise any additional treatment.

Septic in the middle, different overflow tanks on both sides.

[Cashboy]

You have seen my drawings at the beginning of this thread.

I understand that I need to get planning permission for this building because it is two floors.

I would think that an engineer would be able to make drawings for the government from these in one day.

I would think the structural calculations (come straight out of a book) for the posts and the 4.3m centre to centre concrete beams would be easy.

The fact that the main roof structure is resting on the tops of the concrete posts would also be very simple standard calculations.

I estimate the cost of doing these drawings and getting government approval would be about 10,000 bt.

I just had an engineer tell the Thai girl 20,000 bt for the drawings, calculations and approval from the government.

That seems way to high to me.

Opinions, knowledge appreciated please !!

 

 

[bankruatsteve]

What part of Isaan?  Most parts would have no idea what you want if you come in for permit or inspection.  Is the "engineer" actually a "builder"?

[Cashboy]

22 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

What part of Isaan?  Most parts would have no idea what you want if you come in for permit or inspection.  Is the "engineer" actually a "builder"?

Kumpawapi in Udonthani Province.

 

 

[Cashboy]

The Thai girl was advised to go to the town council office with the drawings and speek to a government official that is also a  structural engineer that will be able to do the drawings from my drawings.

The engineer came round in the evening and said that he was able to prepare the drawings from my drawings (by the way; he believes that I am an engineer from those drawings), specify the materials being used and do the structural calculations  (straight out of a book for the spans) and will do those and get them approved by the government  (nudge-nudge wink-wink) for 10,000 bt.

There is a fee to pay for another  Civil Engineer and Town Planning of 4,000 bt.

Then there is an application fee to the government of 5,000 bt.

So the total cost will be 19,000 bt to get full planning application and building regulations.

 

Some information that might be of interest is that I am understand that if you build a single floor and less than 150 m2 you just inform the local government office but there are no fees.

[MikeN]

If I've read your stairplan properly, you have a tread of 22cm for each rise of 18cm ? I hope you have got very small feet, especially when coming down ! You might want to have a think about those stairs, that will be very steep..... especially for when you get older as you say it is going to be your retirement home.

[sirineou]

 Most place code for steps including  international residential code  is Riser no more than  7 3/4 " tread  no less than 10".   

If it is difficult to maintain a 10" tread you can gain 1" ro 1 1/2" by making the riser at an angle.

In the company that I work We do most of our stairs that way.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by sirineou

[bankruatsteve]

14 hours ago, Cashboy said:

The Thai girl was advised to go to the town council office with the drawings and speek to a government official that is also a  structural engineer that will be able to do the drawings from my drawings.

The engineer came round in the evening and said that he was able to prepare the drawings from my drawings (by the way; he believes that I am an engineer from those drawings), specify the materials being used and do the structural calculations  (straight out of a book for the spans) and will do those and get them approved by the government  (nudge-nudge wink-wink) for 10,000 bt.

There is a fee to pay for another  Civil Engineer and Town Planning of 4,000 bt.

Then there is an application fee to the government of 5,000 bt.

So the total cost will be 19,000 bt to get full planning application and building regulations.

 

Some information that might be of interest is that I am understand that if you build a single floor and less than 150 m2 you just inform the local government office but there are no fees.

We live in Amphor Ban Dung.  When my wife went in 8 years ago to "register" our build, they had no idea and told her to go ahead.  I wonder how many of your neighbors have paid fees?  Anyway... before you spend too much on "engineer drawings", you might locate a builder who will understand and follow them.  That is not a given, believe me.

[MikeN]

17 hours ago, sirineou said:

 Most place code for steps including  international residential code  is Riser no more than  7 3/4 " tread  no less than 10".   

If it is difficult to maintain a 10" tread you can gain 1" ro 1 1/2" by making the riser at an angle.

In the company that I work We do most of our stairs that way.

 

 

That angle does give you a bit of extra toeroom going up, but surely that has no benefit when coming downstairs ?

[sirineou]

6 hours ago, MikeN said:

That angle does give you a bit of extra toeroom going up, but surely that has no benefit when coming downstairs ?

My specialty is concrete forms, I run the makeup yard where we make all custom concrete forms and stair racks, so not sure about the above question .

But we are a premier construction company in NYC , this year we have completed three High Rise buildings , one of them at 1st av and 39 st a couple of blocks away from the UN building, all over 50 flrs high, all luxury apts ,all build to the highest standards , and all the stairs are done like that.   

I only do what the engineering dept sends me, and they always send me the stairs like that,  I will ask our engineering department about the above concern when we go back to work (off for Christmas now),  

[Cashboy]

On 12/22/2017 at 1:19 PM, sirineou said:

 Most place code for steps including  international residential code  is Riser no more than  7 3/4 " tread  no less than 10".   

If it is difficult to maintain a 10" tread you can gain 1" ro 1 1/2" by making the riser at an angle.

In the company that I work We do most of our stairs that way.

 

18cm riser = 7 3/32" so lower rise than your recommended 7 3/4"

22cm tread = 8 21/32" so mine is narrower than your recommended 10" = 25.4 cm ; my excuse is that Thais have smaller feet...........LOL

I just checked my UK staircase and the risers are 7 1/2" and 9" tread

I have noticed in Thailand in the newer houses with concrete steps that they seem to be 20cm riser and 20 cm tread.

Saying that I have seen so many staircases in Thailand where the stairs are totally uneven varying from 16cm to 24cm  risers and tread in the same staircase.

[sirineou]

15 minutes ago, Cashboy said:

18cm riser = 7 3/32" so lower rise than your recommended 7 3/4"

 

22cm tread = 8 21/32" so mine is narrower than your recommended 10" = 25.4 cm ; my excuse is that Thais have smaller feet...........LOL

 

I just checked my UK staircase and the risers are 7 1/2" and 9" tread

 

I have noticed in Thailand in the newer houses with concrete steps that they seem to be 20cm riser and 20 cm tread.

 

Saying that I have seen so many staircases in Thailand where the stairs are totally uneven varying from 16cm to 24cm  risers and tread in the same staircase.

 

I understand that many places in Thailand things are not done totally to code. But for your house and for your own good you want to try to get the best possible result.

As far as Thread width concerned , you are right Thais do have smaller feet , but you are not Thai and you will be using these stairs more than any visitors ,

Trust me, you will not be happy stubbing your toe on the riser because the thread is too narrow, especially if thy can be made the proper width very easily. 

As far as riser variation is concerned , OSHA suggests no more than a 1/4 of an inch, and there is good reason for that. When you go down the stairs you expect the next step to be about the same as the one before, and if it is not you will have a higher drop than expected and you could injure your self, the same when you go up the stairs, You don't look at every step to calculate how much you should raise your foot, and if one riser is significantly higher than the one before you could trip and fall. 

I do it manually , but plenty of stair calculators out there that you input the horizontal distance and the vertical height and it will give you the number of steps and the  thread and riser dimensions.

Here is one:http://www.calculator.net/stair-calculator.html

PS: you are doing well , I am also building a house right now in Thailand  and I also ironed out most of my issues by having conversations like this ,  consider what is suggested and based on your own particular situation, and preferences either implement them in your design or reject them,

Good luck