Keep me safe! - Why Road safety in Thailand cannot improve.

[Airbagwill]

7 hours ago, chdailey said:

'Airbagwill' makes some valuable, salient points.  I suspect he has some transportation safety or industrial safety background. So the question would be..How do we get a government to listen / respond / learn from individuals or organizations that are not part of the established institutions?  There have been a lot of (physical) transportation improvements over the past several years in my area around Chiang Mai.  There is evidence that more cameras are being placed strategically all over the country to catch speeders (I suspect this is more in the interest of revenue generation than public safety, much like similar tactics used around the US).  Running red lights is still a very big problem where I live in Hang Dong and one can only hope that camera deployment at intersections will start to put a dent in those deadly circumstances.  Poor driving skills and understanding / following general traffic regulations on the part of the public and commercial drivers seem to account for the high (highway) traffic fatalities during the holidays (as opposed to poor road conditions).  Accident and fatality numbers during these times really point to a lip-service-only approach to serious traffic law enforcement.  As the saying goes..."the proof is in the pudding".  Again, the challenge is to convince Thai institutions that there are some valuable assets that could be tapped to improve the situation with little or no cost to the government.  Most of us that live in this country have a strong desire to see it progress and thrive, I think. If the Thai government is monitoring sites like ours (and I'm fairly certain they are), why not try to open a channel to forward positive, productive suggestions with an official government receipt acknowledged through the channel?  You know, strength in numbers and all that.

"Again, the challenge is to convince Thai institutions that there are some valuable assets that could be tapped to improve the situation with little or no cost to the government.  "

 

Yes.. road safety in every country has been brought about by state investment and involvement.

All successful countries have implemented the 5 Es of road safety.

Education, Enforcement, Engineering, Emergency and Evaluation. You can't have one without the others.

However Thailand, as an industrialising country, needs to be aware that the current situation is costing the nation trillions of baht and can bring about similar changes to a country that a full scale war does.

Corruption, graft and nepotism have had a terrible effect....it has meant that misinformed, unqualified and incompetent people have ended up in high-ranking policy making jobs and the implementation of an effective road safety policy (which Thailand has available) and the construction of proper roads has been impaired by inappropriate diversion of allotted funds.

In fact one really good way of assessing how rife corruption is in a country is to look at the roads....The worse the design and shorter the lifespan before repairs is inversely proportional to the amount of corruption.

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Airbagwill

[Rimmer]

Some off topic posts and a post discussing moderation have been removed

[lvr181]

45 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

I have already implied that good is subjectivesubjective and in what context are you referring to "never"?

USA and France had worse death rates than this in the 1970s....so how would you define or identify the cultural shifts that took place there?

Never say never = do not give up on improvements.

 

Re: USA and France (and I have never lived in either of them) but I would think that modern western nations seem to recognise the terrible monetary cost of road trauma and the personal  psychological trauma and undertook to do something about it - Thailand on the other hand does not seem to want to recognise the monetary cost to the nation. Thais, as a people, do not seem to "mourn, recognise and remember" the deaths of people in the same way as westerners (maybe their Buddhist beliefs are behind this). They appear not to be driven to improvements in all ways of life like westerners (hence their feudal 'values' remain entrenched, the elite at the top being served by the 'serfs'). And as long as the elite are not being killed or injured in road trauma to the same extent as the 'serfs' there is no rush to improve matters. Hence my conclusion that there needs to be a change in cultural values in order to reduce, what westerners would consider as being a terrible road trauma toll. Thais seem not to have a big problem with death and injury on the roads. Alcohol and speed (according to local authorities) are the two biggest contributors to road trauma in the Kingdom. Alcohol consumption is endemic in Thai society (as in many other nations) yet know one really gets punished (by western standards) for causing the terrible road trauma.

Once again,  my conclusion that there needs to be a change in cultural values. Anything else is just window dressing although sometimes a little helpful. 

[lvr181]

57 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

"Again, the challenge is to convince Thai institutions that there are some valuable assets that could be tapped to improve the situation with little or no cost to the government.  "

 

Yes.. road safety in every country has been brought about by state investment and involvement.

All successful countries have implemented the 5 Es of road safety.

Education, Enforcement, Engineering, Emergency and Evaluation. You can't have one without the others.

However Thailand, as an industrialising country, needs to be aware that the current situation is costing the nation trillions of baht and can bring about similar changes to a country that a full scale war does.

Corruption, graft and nepotism have had a terrible effect....it has meant that misinformed, unqualified and incompetent people have ended up in high-ranking policy making jobs and the implementation of an effective road safety policy (which Thailand has available) and the construction of proper roads has been impaired by inappropriate diversion of allotted funds.

In fact one really good way of assessing how rife corruption is in a country is to look at the roads....The worse the design and shorter the lifespan before repairs is inversely proportional to the amount of corruption.

 

I agree with you, I merely couched many of your real concerns into "cultural change".

[BngkkB]

Me First, Me first

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[smotherb]

Drive the biggest and heaviest truck you can find and go wherever you want; oh, that's is what they do, isn't it?

[tryasimight]

19 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

As this is about road safety, not driving I don't see your point.

I see his point....drive as the locals do.... you want to get killed in China  or Vietnam?...stop walking when you are crossing the road. They expect you to keep walking....stop and you are history.

 

 

Anyway this forum is full of Dudley Do Rights who have probably never driven in Thailand....apart from the bus from Swampy to Pattaya and then baht buses thereafter.......Happy new Year to all!!

[tryasimight]

16 hours ago, alien365 said:

So what areas would you propose to improve road safety? Some of my pet peeves that I consider dangerous are signage, plants and the like at junctions making it impossible to see what's coming without sticking your nose out in the road. Streetlights that don't actually light the streets, road surfaces that reflect and are as slippery as an ice rink in the wet. No traffic lights at most U-turns, no give way signs, unmanned railway crossings, poor drainage.

Or young fellas getting pissed and killing themselves on motorbikes...stop stressing...the Thai car driver isn't out to kill the farang.

 

Solve the issue of young men  away from the herd..then you have solved the  problem

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by tryasimight

[whaleboneman]

23 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

The OP is nothing to do with personal anecdotes about perceived driving in Thailand. It is about road safety and how it is inadequately established.

If you don't understand the OP, why not ask?

If you want to post anecdotes about how you think Thai people are "bad drivers", why not start your own thread on that topic?

Funny how you can't control the internet 

[Airbagwill]

20 hours ago, alien365 said:

So what areas would you propose to improve road safety? Some of my pet peeves that I consider dangerous are signage, plants and the like at junctions making it impossible to see what's coming without sticking your nose out in the road. Streetlights that don't actually light the streets, road surfaces that reflect and are as slippery as an ice rink in the wet. No traffic lights at most U-turns, no give way signs, unmanned railway crossings, poor drainage.

What you have just cited are a few examples that come under E for engineering in the 5 Es of road safety. 

Engineering includes both vehicle safety and traffic and road engineering.

All five need to be implemented to work properly as they are interdependent.

 

[Airbagwill]

12 hours ago, lvr181 said:

I agree with you, I merely couched many of your real concerns into "cultural change".

I think it is more a question of politics than falling back on a nebulous catch-all term like culture......the world is spherical whatever part of the planet or "culture" you live in.

Edited January 1, 2018 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

22 hours ago, everett kendall said:

There are driving laws on the books but they are enforced. 

 

Bless their little hearts Motorcycles are in or cause most accidents, I believe.

 

The police only do Road Checks Points and rarely (if at all) cruise and issue tickets for incorrect driving, so people are allowed to mostly drive as fate allows. 

 

I would like to imagine what it would be like if there were Motorcycle cops cruising and giving tickets like in other countries.   

 

I am now learned in the ways of driving here but sometimes I wish it was safer for all.

Enforcement is one of the 5 interdependent Es of road safety. 

How do you think given the current state of the police force and roads in Thailand that this can be aaltered.

It seems that laws in Thailand are introduced with no thought to how they can be enforced. There is also no separation between executive and judiciary.

As roads are not clearly or consistently marked or delineated many motoring offences would be highly debatable.

In Thailand also the police aren't sufficiently trained to deal with road law, let alone accident management and subsequent calibration and statistic compilation.

The enforcement of traffic laws would require a total review of those laws, redesigning of the road system, a change in the official function of the police in relation to reporting infringements, a bureaucracy to administer fines and penalties and probably some major constitutional changes.

..and that is only 1 of the 5 Es.

[lvr181]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

I think it is more a question of politics than falling back on a nebulous catch-all term like culture......the world is spherical whatever part of the planet or "culture" you live in.

Whatever, I will still go with 'cultural change'. The Kingdom has had many years of "politics" with little or no change! Thai politics seem to be about keeping the elite in power and accumulating further wealth and making the rich richer. That is what a feudal society does. 

 

Do have a Happy and Healthy New Year. 

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by lvr181
Additional wording

[tgeezer]

 
Statistics.
 
That is because of the sheer numbers of motorcycles on the roads.
 
It is like that old UK safety campaign, "95% of accidents occur within 5 miles of home".
 
 
 
 

Has anybody seen evidence of a safety campaign? All I hear about is crackdowns.
I don't watch the TV a great deal but I don't think that it is being used nearly enough to demonstrate how badly people are driving. If a proffessional approach to driving could be engendered in the population then safety would follow.
TV, You Tube, Facetime, are all available to make people aware of what. they are doing wrongly but seldom used. A driver's awareness programme like You've Been Framed might be popular. On You Tube it could make money for someone with talent.
Why not take actual accidents and analyse them? I suppose that they would have to be historical for the sake of justice but non the less useful for that.
Good high profile examples could be the killing of two students backended in the left/slow lane, the killing of pedestrians at a bus stop could be another, to get the show on the road.
I can't understand why it hasn't been done already, is it liable or slander laws which prevents this approach?




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[BngkkB]

The movies now have an opening trailer about Drunk Driving.

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[evadgib]

On 12/31/2017 at 10:09 AM, Enoon said:

Notionally it's about road safety, but actually it's about the difference between cultures.

I'm not sure that i'll ever accept or understand that traffic going the wrong way seems to have right of way and makes no attempt whatsoever to evade the legitimate flow; furthermore this 'face' lark is so ingrained that a blast of horn will either be ignored or generate a 'postal' response from a plastic hiso or mafia wannabe if their car or perceived status outranks the honker.

Edited January 1, 2018 by evadgib

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 9:01 AM, Airbagwill said:

there is no such thing as an “accident”.

Sorry, but that's a nonsense.

 

From google dictionary

1.

an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

 

Also I scorn your attempt to compare road accident rates with the type of government, which appears to be a thinly veiled attack on the present government of LOS.

 

In the country I come from, the populace drives appallingly, yet the death rate is very low, but far as I can see purely by luck as it should be astronomical. I just  avoided certain death by inches twice within half an hour on one unfortunate trip ( from idiots that can't drive properly ). 

 

I suppose in the end though, it comes down to whether we want to live in a nanny state with all the horrors of that, or a country with sanuk ( something extremely lacking in my home country ) and accept that it has consequences that may not be pleasant.

 

I don't know why you choose to live in LOS, but I choose it for the sanuk.

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

23 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

.

Corruption, graft and nepotism have had a terrible effect....

 

Agree 100%.

If those were eliminated LOS would be the best country in the world, but you know as well as I that will not happen, at least in our lifetimes.

If somehow Singapore and LOS could be magically one country, with Singapore's incorruptibility, excellence in infrastructure and Thailand's sanuk it would really be paradise on earth.

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 5:55 PM, Airbagwill said:

I have already implied that good is subjectivesubjective and in what context are you referring to "never"?

USA and France had worse death rates than this in the 1970s....so how would you define or identify the cultural shifts that took place there?

IMO in the 70s the average US consumer car was a pile of goat vomit. The reduced death rate could be put down simply to better construction incorporating safety features. I don't have any clue as to France though.

In both countries it could ( though that is a supposition ) be as simple as too many cars reducing the average speed. It's hard to die in a traffic jam.

Of more significance would be the accident rate and not the death rate.

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by thaibeachlovers

[thaibeachlovers]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2017 at 9:55 AM, connda said:

I came home from a trip to Mae Hong Son.  As I rounded blind corners, the sheer number of times that I found myself facing oncoming vehicles driving in my lane in order to 'cut corners' was really staggering.  And most made no attempt to pull back into their own land, but instead expected you to drive off onto the shoulder.  The level of aggressive driving is both amazing and suicidal.  I don't particularly care if drivers like that kill themselves, but unfortunately they put everyone on the road at risk.  The BIB could quadruple the number of road blocks, but they will never address the underlying aggressive and dangerous driving that occurs on the road between those road blocks. 

Had a few of those near death experiences myself. The only thing I can see that will cut the rate is to widen the roads so central barriers can be used, but obviously too expensive in anything but the long term.

However, the greatest risk I faced when driving in the rural areas was in killing a few kids on a m'bike pulling out in front of me without looking and getting beaten to death by the villagers. For that reason I preferred the hours between 1am and 5am when they were mostly asleep and before dawn reduced visibility.

 

In the end though, the only way to be safe on Thailand's roads is not to drive on them. I like the train. I also like the government buses if there is no train.

 

 

[lvr181]

7 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Has anybody seen evidence of a safety campaign? All I hear about is crackdowns.
I don't watch the TV a great deal but I don't think that it is being used nearly enough to demonstrate how badly people are driving. If a proffessional approach to driving could be engendered in the population then safety would follow.
TV, You Tube, Facetime, are all available to make people aware of what. they are doing wrongly but seldom used. A driver's awareness programme like You've Been Framed might be popular. On You Tube it could make money for someone with talent.
Why not take actual accidents and analyse them? I suppose that they would have to be historical for the sake of justice but non the less useful for that.
Good high profile examples could be the killing of two students backended in the left/slow lane, the killing of pedestrians at a bus stop could be another, to get the show on the road.
I can't understand why it hasn't been done already, is it liable or slander laws which prevents this approach?




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

"All I hear about is crackdowns."   What that actually means is police sitting down doing nothing, hence the 'crackdowns'.  

[sirineou]

On 12/29/2017 at 9:01 PM, Airbagwill said:

So it is with road safety; you can introduce systems that protect everyone or just blame and punish individuals, usually after the event which is clearly shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Road safety is about anticipating dangers BEFORE they happen.

 I hate to disagree but there are two ways to improve traffic safety, or any other safety  (one of the hats I wear at work , is Site Safety Manager " 

Active and Reactive   .

The transportation system as with any other system has several components .

Input: what you hope to achieve

Process: how you achieve the input  (Active)

Output: result as close as possible to input but diminished by unforeseen consequences 

Monitoring: how close is your input to the process

Adjustment: changes to process to limit unforeseen consequences and achieve  input/output parity  (reastive)

Unforeseen consequences :   Shit happens LOL

 

The Thai traffic system is a work in progres , and many adjustments need to, and are being made . Some will argue not enough. 

Punishment for not adhering to the rules and regulations governing the process part of the system   are part of the adjustment portion of the system, and since the system is not done adjusting, you are not "shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted" because the horse has not bolted yet ,but is still with in the system .  Even punishing a horse that is out of the system stands as a deterrent to those still in the system. 

There are many other ways to adjust behaviour,,  IMO, punishment ranks Up there in effectiveness .

 

[Pinot]

It's pretty simple. There is no enforcement of traffic laws once you're moving. There is no highway patrol. You're never going to get pulled over for speeding or driving like a complete maniac so people speed and drive like maniacs. That's not going to change because the police don't have the training, the equipment, the vehicles or the inclination. 

 

It's always going to be the worst place to drive in the world. 

 

Sorted

[sirineou]

8 minutes ago, Pinot said:

It's pretty simple. There is no enforcement of traffic laws once you're moving. There is no highway patrol. You're never going to get pulled over for speeding or driving like a complete maniac so people speed and drive like maniacs. That's not going to change because the police don't have the training, the equipment, the vehicles or the inclination. 

 

It's always going to be the worst place to drive in the world. 

 

Sorted

 Not entirely true.

In Khon Kaen there are traffic cameras all over the place, and they can not be bargained with. A couple of tickets in the mail and a hit at the walles has had a positive affect in my town.

At least it did on me LOL

Edited January 1, 2018 by sirineou

[55Jay]

I can understand how someone straight out of the US or UK without too much other experience, would think Thai drivers are off their heads.

 

IME, Thailand is rather tame in comparison to other garden spots, and I'm sure plenty here have similar experience.  I'm still amazed at how quiet the driving is here, rarely hear a horn blasted in anger.   Probably because there's a chance the other driver gets out and empties a 9mm pistol into your windscreen.  That'll shut you up in a hurry. 

 

What I don't yet grasp is how folks who've been here a long time fail to adapt.  Or maybe they have and just like to vent about how terrible the driving is.  OK.

 

Thais don't seem terribly complex in this regard, so not difficult to suss out common trends and  anticipate.  But right, sometimes you get an extra special space cadet, especially the slow ones, and I wonder how in the hell they make it through the day without choking on noodle soup.

Edited January 1, 2018 by 55Jay

[JungleBiker]

Until I read this thread I had never heard of the "5 Es of road safety" before.

 

"Dunning-Kruger" was also new to me. I looked it up here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect and here https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/head-in-the-cloud/201701/the-dunning-kruger-president 

 

Thank you Airbagwill for helping to enlighten me. 

 

 

[12DrinkMore]

22 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Has anybody seen evidence of a safety campaign? All I hear about is crackdowns.
I don't watch the TV a great deal but I don't think that it is being used nearly enough to demonstrate how badly people are driving. If a proffessional approach to driving could be engendered in the population then safety would follow.
TV, You Tube, Facetime, are all available to make people aware of what. they are doing wrongly but seldom used. A driver's awareness programme like You've Been Framed might be popular. On You Tube it could make money for someone with talent.
Why not take actual accidents and analyse them? I suppose that they would have to be historical for the sake of justice but non the less useful for that.
Good high profile examples could be the killing of two students backended in the left/slow lane, the killing of pedestrians at a bus stop could be another, to get the show on the road.
I can't understand why it hasn't been done already, is it liable or slander laws which prevents this approach?
Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

 

Last time I renewed my driving license I had to sit through an hout or so of a road safety film. It was on an endless loop. I found it quite good.

 

The Thais who were also present were

 

- asleep

 

- looking out of the window

 

- texting on the mobile phones

 

- chatting

 

I don't think that Thais can be taught anything because of the huge loss of face it implies in admitting ignorance. 

 

[Airbagwill]

22 hours ago, tgeezer said:

Has anybody seen evidence of a safety campaign? All I hear about is crackdowns.
I don't watch the TV a great deal but I don't think that it is being used nearly enough to demonstrate how badly people are driving. If a proffessional approach to driving could be engendered in the population then safety would follow.
TV, You Tube, Facetime, are all available to make people aware of what. they are doing wrongly but seldom used. A driver's awareness programme like You've Been Framed might be popular. On You Tube it could make money for someone with talent.
Why not take actual accidents and analyse them? I suppose that they would have to be historical for the sake of justice but non the less useful for that.
Good high profile examples could be the killing of two students backended in the left/slow lane, the killing of pedestrians at a bus stop could be another, to get the show on the road.
I can't understand why it hasn't been done already, is it liable or slander laws which prevents this approach?




Sent from my iPad using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

"Why not take actual accidents and analyse them?"

This is the 5th E. - Evaluation.

in most European countries every reportedcrash is analysed, measures etc in minute detail. The results are open to all on the net.

This is done to help prosecution if necessary but also so we can learn how to PREVENT similar events happening again.

Horror movies etc have been shown not to work in road safety, either people try to ignore them or get the firm belief it applies to others and not themselves.

Thailand has no proper comprehensive analysis of crashes and no proper full set of statistics, so like so many people on this thread they don't have a realistic perspective v e of what is actually happening on Thai roads

 

[Kwasaki]

13 hours ago, 55Jay said:

What I don't yet grasp is how folks who've been here a long time fail to adapt.  Or maybe they have and just like to vent about how terrible the driving is.  OK.

 

That'll be the Health & Safety tv brigade. 

 

[Kwasaki]

14 hours ago, Pinot said:

It's always going to be the worst place to drive in the world. 

I guess you mean these places otherwise a bit of a naive remark IMO. 

http://travel.cnn.com/explorations/life/worlds-deadliest-roads-098394/