20 things to think about when considering misconceptions about road safety

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, connda said:

"No such thing as an accident - Most accidents are caused by minor human error in the course of normal everyday driving and therefore could have been avoided."

I'll simple take one comment at a time.  Let's start here.  That, here in Thailand, is absurd.

I drive frequently.  I've watched as I have been overtaken on blind corners that are clearly marks (lane strips) as no passing zones, but forget the lane strips - this is about individuals making a choice to accelerate and pass a car on a corner that they can not see around, or on a hill they can not see over, and then when they encounter an oncoming car, the simply maintain their lane and expect the oncoming car to avoid them.   I can not remember one time in 40 years of driving that I had to 'go to the shoulder' to avoid a collision with another car in the US, but here in Thailand???  Probably a number of time each month.  So don't - don't - don't say that the carnage you see here are misjudgments.  Most are due to aggressive, careless, and utterly stupid driving.  Back to passing on blind corners and blind hills.

You contend that it's not 'Stupid."  Ok, let's change the word: "Suicidal."  It risks, at a minimum, lives in three different vehicles: the suicidal driver doing the passing, those being passed, and the oncoming vehicle. 

You sound like an apologist.  It comes off as ingenuous.  That sort of driving is insane.  And it is not like this type of driving does not get press coverage.  It does.  A lot of press and social media coverage.  And yet the locals keep engaging in the same behavior. 

This country, unlike Western and developed countries - Does not have a functional police presence in patrol cars who patrol the roads and cite drivers for infractions of the law. "Moving violations" as we would call them.  Road blocks don't catch aggressive driving.  How many road blocks stop a driver cruising at 160kph and weaving in and out of traffic, cutting off other drivers, causing near accidents - at a road block?  Zero!  This can only be stopped by petrol officers in patrol cruisers looking for dangerous driving.

This country does not have sanctions that are sever enough to be a deterrent to dangerous driving.
This country does not have a driver education system that reaches the majority of the population with a program to train drivers of the law and how to actually drive safely.
This country allows non-licenses drivers to pay a fee and continue to drive ad-infinitum. 
Noting changes - so don't apologize for the behavior that they could correct, but choose to ignore. 

I've read the rest of your points.  Many are spot on.  Others or weak.  This particular argument that I replies to is at best - weak.  Try rethinking it.

You actually begin with a fundamental misconception - "No such thing as an accident" - isa fundamental tenet of the science of road safety.

Basing your argument on a false premise completely misses the point you might as well argue that the world is flat. - everything you say thereafter is based on false premise and anecdote - the very reason for the misconceptions. Unless you accept the basic tenets of road safety you will be unable to appreciate the misconceptions that are so frequently promulgated on this site.

Stating the obvious is not the same as proving a point as with many others you confuse association with cause and make several mistakes about Thailand as a nation.

then you finally resort to a single issue account about roadblocks which has little to do with the topic but you seem to think it has.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

5 hours ago, manchega said:

Lets make this clear

 

Thailand teaches people to operate vehicles.

 

It does not teach people how to do so safely.

 

that is it.  poster can make all apologies it wants, but those are the facts.

 

Number 2. if police shot all drivers holding up traffic by driving too slowly or stopping on public highways to pop in shops etc. traffic problems would be cut in half.

 

Once news of new policy gets around risk adverse would stop driving.

As with most of the posts, I'm talking about misconceptions about road safety- you appear to be an example of this quite clearly - you haven't even mentioned the actual topic.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Airbagwill

[impulse]

17 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

You actually begin with a fundamental misconception - "No such thing as an accident" - isa fundamental tenet of the science of road safety.

 

No, that's new age insurance speak.   If there is no intent, it's an accident.  There may be all kinds of negligence, crappy skills, faulty equipment and shoddy road design involved.  But absent intent, it's still an accident.  Or at least it has been since the beginning of the English language.

 

It may not be an act of God, but it is an accident.  Or an accidental crash.  Or an accident caused by negligence.  Or an accidental crash caused by poor road conditions. 

 

 

[Airbagwill]

9 minutes ago, impulse said:

 

No, that's new age insurance speak.   If there is no intent, it's an accident.  There may be all kinds of negligence, crappy skills, faulty equipment and shoddy road design involved.  But absent intent, it's still an accident.  Or at least it has been since the beginning of the English language.

 

It may not be an act of God, but it is an accident.  Or an accidental crash.  Or an accident caused by negligence.  Or an accidental crash caused by poor road conditions. 

 

 

"new age insurance speak"? I think you'd need to define that.

Basically though in terms of road safety there is no such thing as an accident - the term "accident" is used less and less these days as it is considered highly  inaccurate and even obscures a clear view of what is actually happening.

I would suggest that you read any recent papers on the to[pic and you'll soon realise that term like RTA and "accident" are replaced with incident and crash or RTI etc etc.

 

As I said from the start there are many misconceptions about road safety and that is one of the most basic ones.

 

Accident implies mere chance but  in your last sentence you contradict this with a chain of oxymorons which quite clearly illustrate why there is no such thing as an accident in terms of road safety.

Edited January 24, 2018 by Airbagwill

[impulse]

2 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

"new age insurance speak"? I think you'd need to define that.

Basically though in terms of road safety there is no such thing as an accident - the term "accident" is used less and less these days as it is considered highly  inaccurate and even obscures a clear view of what is actually happening.

I would suggest that you read any recent papers on the to[pic and you'll soon realise that term like RTA and "accident" are replaced with incident and crash or RTI etc etc.

 

As I said from the start there are many misconceptions about road safety and that is one of the most basic ones.

 

That's not a misconception, that semantics.  Call it whatever acronym you want.  If there was no intent, it was accidental.  That's a definition.  Unexpected and unintentional.

 

Here's my bet.  First, the insurance companies will get the terms redefined.  And sooner or later, they'll refuse to pay out on anything that isn't an accident by the new terminology.  They have an incentive in the hundreds of billions $$$ annually to dodge paying out on anything they can.  No seat belt?  No pay out.  DWI accident?  No pay out.  Burnt out brakelights?  No payout.  Because, after all, they weren't accidents.

 

I'd suggest you look at those papers and see who's sponsoring them.  With that kind of money on the line, I could afford to pay hundreds of experts to help change the language.  Because words count in the legal arena. 

 

Perhaps like a lot of us, you've adopted your industry's line.  Happens to me all the time, being in the oil field.  I either adopt the line, or I'm in for a lot of pain in the daily, weekly and annual meetings.  But here's the truth.  We're really not great corporate citizens at the expense of profits...  That's the industry line, though.

 

 

[Airbagwill]

If you are having difficulty with this concept - and it isn't to do with insurance, it is to do with the sciene or road safety, take a look at this clip.

It's from a uk TV series called motorway which gives an insight into the complexities of road safety  (based on the M6)

You will notice that there are no simple solutions and stupid drivers are not the preserve of Thai roads - therefore as a constant they are not the simple "cause or reason" for the stats in Thailand.

 

 

I have no idea what your theories of "sponsorship" are - I think you seem to be very out of touch with the realities of the science of road safety, which of course leads to the kind of misconceptions you are illustrating

 

 

PS - here's an American take on the concept,

 

http://droptheaword.blogspot.com

 

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Airbagwill

[tryasimight]

7 hours ago, dotpoom said:

I considered myself a "good driver" and indeed have been told so by others. I was a proffessional driver most of my life, I also spent time as a driving instructor.

   I was driving in Thailand for about 16 years, then stopped, got "she who must be obeyed" to get her driving licence and put the car "fairly powerful one" into her name.......why?

  I found after driving that length of time here I was beginning to "take chances" that I wouldn't have done before. Partly because I felt it was necessary in many cases to get to my destination (like not waiting all day for somebody to "let me out") and other similar stuff.

   I am 68 and found that my patience was getting shorter and my anger was riseing more quickly.

  My intuition was telling me that maybe it was time to pack it in. I have learned over my lifetime that it is wise to.......listen to one's inner Teacher.

   Now life is much more pleasent sitting in the passenger seat and being ably to enjoy the surroundings as we motor along (all be it at a slower pace) 555.

Please define a professional driver..... Bus,  truck taxi.. Pizza Hut delivery?  What professionally recognised qualifications did you achieve?

Just because you drove for a living does not make you a professional in any sense of the word. 

[tryasimight]

Just now, richard_smith237 said:

Why not join the discussion and make an on-topic comment instead of turning the thread into an argument?... You could even keep your comments short to please likeminded members. 

No argument from me. 

You blokes keep banging your head on the wall over solving Thailands alleged driving problem. Until the Thais want to change I think you are misguided however well intentioned you may be. 

[metisdead]

A troll post has been removed as well as the replies. 

[canthai55]

I got my Class One driving license in 1973 - called a HGV in the UK. Been driving off and on ever since. GVW up to 160,000 tonnes. I guess this makes me somewhat of a 'Professional'

Never had an accident involving another vehicle - not for want of trying.

Been in a few accidents with wildlife - or incidents - call them what you will, it is a different word for the same thing. You can not tell me that there is any way to predict, avoid, or change anyones behavior to stop a 1200+ kg moose from running out of a pitch black forest, right in front of your truck.

Avoidable - 555 - tell it to the moose I pressure washed off the truck and trailer.

Graduated licenses have been a staple in BC since 1968. Studies have found that the benefit new drivers - 16, 17 years old. But after they graduate to a full, unrestricted license, it is business as usual as they adopt the driving habits of the adult world.

Very few true professional drivers anywhere in the world. But they are out there - many right here in Thailand. Fuel tanker drivers come to mind - Mon transport one of the best I have seen here. Courteous, considerate, careful.

[electric]

1 hour ago, tryasimight said:

Please define a professional driver..... Bus,  truck taxi.. Pizza Hut delivery?  What professionally recognised qualifications did you achieve?

Just because you drove for a living does not make you a professional in any sense of the word. 

 

Wrong. It's not a requirement to have achieved formal tertiary qualification to be allowed to call oneself a professional.

 

Professional sports players are a prime example.

 

Career drivers are perfectly entitled to call themselves professionals, and their opinions should never be dismissed in topics such as this.

 

Once again, I state that law enforcement is the key to reducing the appalling driving habits in Thailand. Even small steps like a concerted blitz on helmets, or some such, would make a difference.

 

Everyone knows that ..... but unfortunately the RTP are reluctant to get involved.

[tryasimight]

2 hours ago, canthai55 said:

I got my Class One driving license in 1973 - called a HGV in the UK. Been driving off and on ever since. GVW up to 160,000 tonnes. I guess this makes me somewhat of a 'Professional'

Never had an accident involving another vehicle - not for want of trying.

Been in a few accidents with wildlife - or incidents - call them what you will, it is a different word for the same thing. You can not tell me that there is any way to predict, avoid, or change anyones behavior to stop a 1200+ kg moose from running out of a pitch black forest, right in front of your truck.

Avoidable - 555 - tell it to the moose I pressure washed off the truck and trailer.

Graduated licenses have been a staple in BC since 1968. Studies have found that the benefit new drivers - 16, 17 years old. But after they graduate to a full, unrestricted license, it is business as usual as they adopt the driving habits of the adult world.

Very few true professional drivers anywhere in the world. But they are out there - many right here in Thailand. Fuel tanker drivers come to mind - Mon transport one of the best I have seen here. Courteous, considerate, careful.

160,000 tonnes..... Yeah your a professional alright.... But I'm not thinking in the field of transport 

[tryasimight]

1 hour ago, electric said:

 

Wrong. It's not a requirement to have achieved formal tertiary qualification to be allowed to call oneself a professional.

 

Professional sports players are a prime example.

 

Career drivers are perfectly entitled to call themselves professionals, and their opinions should never be dismissed in topics such as this.

 

Once again, I state that law enforcement is the key to reducing the appalling driving habits in Thailand. Even small steps like a concerted blitz on helmets, or some such, would make a difference.

 

Everyone knows that ..... but unfortunately the RTP are reluctant to get involved.

Don't disagree on any of the safety improve my points at all and certainly not dismissing them.  I've always listened to experienced people.  But why do people have to talk up their jobs.? Are they embarrassed? My mate used to drive for Greyhound cross country.  His wife says he was a ' Coach Captain'....... He used to say he was a bus driver.... And he was and nothing wrong with that at all. 

Mechanics are no longer mechanics but 'Automotive Technicians'but they are still mechanics as are truck drivers still truck drivers.  I could wash windows for 30 years including high rise buildings.  Does that make me professional.... No it makes me a window cleaner. 

[canthai55]

11 hours ago, tryasimight said:

But I'm not thinking in the field of transport 

Topic Title Road Safety - trucks are on the road.

You want to pick and choose what you discuss, on a public forum, make this clear in the topic title, or the OP,  so people will not waste their time trying to figure out what you are talking about.

[manchega]

18 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

As with most of the posts, I'm talking about misconceptions about road safety- you appear to be an example of this quite clearly - you haven't even mentioned the actual topic.

pretty sure your misconception is that the police can do nothing.  As i mention shoot all perpetrators or even those they think will do a wrong un.

 

same result, less traffic on road, better for all users

[Airbagwill]

On 1/25/2018 at 10:45 AM, manchega said:

pretty sure your misconception is that the police can do nothing.  As i mention shoot all perpetrators or even those they think will do a wrong un.

 

same result, less traffic on road, better for all users

 

On 1/25/2018 at 7:30 AM, canthai55 said:

Topic Title Road Safety - trucks are on the road.

You want to pick and choose what you discuss, on a public forum, make this clear in the topic title, or the OP,  so people will not waste their time trying to figure out what you are talking about.

On 1/24/2018 at 8:43 PM, tryasimight said:

Don't disagree on any of the safety improve my points at all and certainly not dismissing them.  I've always listened to experienced people.  But why do people have to talk up their jobs.? Are they embarrassed? My mate used to drive for Greyhound cross country.  His wife says he was a ' Coach Captain'....... He used to say he was a bus driver.... And he was and nothing wrong with that at all. 

Mechanics are no longer mechanics but 'Automotive Technicians'but they are still mechanics as are truck drivers still truck drivers.  I could wash windows for 30 years including high rise buildings.  Does that make me professional.... No it makes me a window cleaner. 

Most engineers are mechanics, most mechanics are fitters and most fitters are labourers......and most people who can drive think that means they are experts on road safety....

[simoh1490]

On 24/01/2018 at 8:52 AM, hansnl said:

Road fatalities in the EU 2016: 71 per day.

Road fatalities in the USA 2016: 102 per day.

Road fatalities in Thailand 2016: 65 per day.

All numbers are more or less.

Relate the road deaths to the number of inhabitants then the EU is rather safe to drive, the USA less so, and Thailand dangerous.

As most drivers driving in Thailand are Thai, there must be a connection somewhere to driver abilities.

 

How about you revise those numbers and present them again showing deaths as a percentage of the population since the USA is 325 million, Europe 725 million but Thailand is only 65 million.

[canthai55]

Stats are meaningless unless quantified ...

How many pedestrians - and what percent of the population

How many were riding motorcycles - same

How many were driving cars - same

Making a general statement that driving is more dangerous in A than B has no basis in fact without some criteria to explain your findings

[giddyup]

1 hour ago, simoh1490 said:

 

How about you revise those numbers and present them again showing deaths as a percentage of the population since the USA is 325 million, Europe 725 million but Thailand is only 65 million.

Doesn't he already say, "relate those road deaths to the number of inhabitants"?

[simoh1490]

20 minutes ago, giddyup said:

Doesn't he already say, "relate those road deaths to the number of inhabitants"?

Yes he does, I'm simply suggesting he present the numbers differently rather than telling the reader to go to the trouble of understanding the data. He's done the hard part and found the number of deaths by territory but he's missed off the easy part which is the rest of it.

[Airbagwill]

4 hours ago, canthai55 said:

Stats are meaningless unless quantified ...

How many pedestrians - and what percent of the population

How many were riding motorcycles - same

How many were driving cars - same

Making a general statement that driving is more dangerous in A than B has no basis in fact without some criteria to explain your findings

Misconception...stats are "facts". They are meaningless unless analysed...

E.g. population of "Europe"???

The EU is about 500 million...so let's decide which area you are referring to. Then you might want to look at individual countries and then decide which form of stats you want to look at....The number of crashes reported, the number of minor injuries, serious injuries or death per 100 k. Why not look at traffic density or mikes travelled or number of vvehicles per 100 k pop.?

Then maybe check the sources and who collated the stats.....I don't see anyone on TV looking at anything but deaths per 100k, which totally ignores the number of reported collisions for a start and of course all the other factors.

Also the obsession with "driving". Road safety is about ALL road users....pedestrians animals vehicles of all shapes and sizes, those who live by the roads those whose livelihood depends on the roads....caterers, vendors, repair shops etc....

Edited January 26, 2018 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Yes he does, I'm simply suggesting he present the numbers differently rather than telling the reader to go to the trouble of understanding the data. He's done the hard part and found the number of deaths by territory but he's missed off the easy part which is the rest of it.

He's missed the hard part which is looking at ALL the stats not just cherrypicking, and then analysing them as to why they exist and what to do....hasn't touched on that.

[Airbagwill]

2 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Yes he does, I'm simply suggesting he present the numbers differently rather than telling the reader to go to the trouble of understanding the data. He's done the hard part and found the number of deaths by territory but he's missed off the easy part which is the rest of it.

He's missed the hard part which is looking at ALL the stats not just cherrypicking, and then analysing them as to why they exist and what to do....hasn't touched on that.

 

5 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

 

How about you revise those numbers and present them again showing deaths as a percentage of the population since the USA is 325 million, Europe 725 million but Thailand is only 65 million.

Death rates.....only one of the main road safety stats are usually recorded per 100k population.

However even the starting point here is questionable....probably the result of some over quick googling....firstly he talks about ,"EU" and then Europe.....two different groups and about 200 million difference in population. Also widely differing road safety regimes. He's either trying to compare 2 countries and a continent or 2 single countries and a group of 28.

One of the main sources of misconception is that people fail to differentiate between "search" and "research". They aren't the same...it's like using a dictionary on each word as opposed to understanding the whole sentence.

Edited January 26, 2018 by Airbagwill

[canthai55]

10 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

 those who live by the roads those whose livelihood depends on the roads....caterers, vendors, repair shops etc....

555 - with that 'Statement' I will now end reading this thread, where the topic of discussion changes at the whim of the OP. Next it will be the well being of the Chinese factory who makes the turn signal indicators for a specific car 555

[simoh1490]

10 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

He's missed the hard part which is looking at ALL the stats not just cherrypicking, and then analysing them as to why they exist and what to do....hasn't touched on that.

Um, he's making a point on a social network forum, not writing a thesis for his Doctorate!

[Airbagwill]

42 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

Um, he's making a point on a social network forum, not writing a thesis for his Doctorate!

Either way he is not making a valid argument.

[Airbagwill]

1 hour ago, canthai55 said:

555 - with that 'Statement' I will now end reading this thread, where the topic of discussion changes at the whim of the OP. Next it will be the well being of the Chinese factory who makes the turn signal indicators for a specific car 555

Misconceptions - QED.

There are 20 points made about misconceptions around the topic of road safety I would have thought that any logical response would refer to one or more of the points outlined or furtherbobservation on the misconceptions or perceptions of road safety.

I fail to see how anecdotes about driving or crashes, cherrypicking stats and comments based on race or nationality are actually connected with the topic, apart from further underlining the misconceptions about road safety

Edited January 27, 2018 by Airbagwill

[Airbagwill]

On 1/25/2018 at 7:30 AM, canthai55 said:

Topic Title Road Safety - trucks are on the road.

You want to pick and choose what you discuss, on a public forum, make this clear in the topic title, or the OP,  so people will not waste their time trying to figure out what you are talking about.

Title of the topic is NOT road safety.

....and it's not about driving either.

Edited January 27, 2018 by Airbagwill

[NanLaew]

All accidents are preventable.

 

That concept is all that anyone needs to understand.

[electric]

Airbagwill .... your original post has many valid points for consideration.

 

However, your OP reads like someone has asked you to present a 10 minute dissertation at a conference of Transport Ministers, who, by the end of the speech are only wondering what delights are on offer at the morning tea break.

 

No one doubts the need for a change in road safety in Thailand. For me, it's all about changing driver attitude, and better enforcement.

 

Find the magic wand for those 2, and overall road safety will improve.