Surreal

[tryasimight]

1 minute ago, taiping said:

Yes, I agree, but it's clear that the OP has a negative opinion on cryptos and finds it all "incomprehensible." If anyone is looking for sensible advice on TV then they are living in a parallel universe. There are much better resources.

 

So it would seem. 

[lkn]

8 minutes ago, taiping said:

There are many YouTube videos which would educate him on cryptos. Why ask TVers, since as you say they might be "uptalking" crypros? Anyone interested can find out for themselves, using a little diligence.

It is clear that 12DrinkMore knows more about cryptocurrencies than your average poster and also understands how the financial system works (unlike many of the crypto shills).

 

What he fails to understand is why are people participating in this zero-sum game?

 

TV has a lot of crypto proponents, so it seems like a good place to ask the question!

 

Although the sad answer is that people are naive and greedy, we’ve sadly been down this road many times before.

[MrPatrickThai]

43 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

Those who bought and sold last year probably fall into the class of "investors", broadly interpreted.

 

The majority of newbies jumping into the cauldron from September 2017 onwards are gamblers. These are the guys that are being scammed and scalped. They are also not the guys you see posting if they are losing.

 

If somebody makes 500% profit all the world has to be told. 

 

If they lose 80% nobody wants to admit it.

I convinced a long time investor old traditional stock to buy Ripple in Dec. He didn't buy at 10 but when it started rising at 16.5. Just $2000 and he sold all for 113.5,  2 weeks later! 

[taiping]

1 minute ago, lkn said:

It is clear that 12DrinkMore knows more about cryptocurrencies than your average poster and also understands how the financial system works (unlike many of the crypto shills).

 

What he fails to understand is why are people participating in this zero-sum game?

 

TV has a lot of crypto proponents, so it seems like a good place to ask the question!

 

Although the sad answer is that people are naive and greedy, we’ve sadly been down this road many times before.

Do you seek financial advice from someone you met in a bar (or on TV)? People have always been naive and greedy. As you say, we've been "down this road many times before." I agree. How many people lost money on (say) the dotcom bubble? Since the OP has posted more than 5,000 posts, I presume he likes the sound of his own voice.

[1FinickyOne]

if it is incomprehensible, that makes any decision easy. You should never invest in anything you don't fully understand. I am invested in stocks, bonds, real estate, gold, and by living here, effected by currencies as well. I am not in the least tempted by crypto... 

 

As any game, or investment, I would be easy prey for someone who might know what they are doing...

[MrPatrickThai]

16 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

If you made a profit..... Someone else lost, that's the way gambling works.

Unless you are Warren Buffet it may be you next time. 

 

How could someone make a loss on the top cryptos, unless they bought at the top and were not willing to wait out the dips? 

[taiping]

12 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

How could someone make a loss on the top cryptos, unless they bought at the top and were not willing to wait out the dips? 

For every seller there is a buyer. So by definition, some people lost on the recent crypto price "correction." It's called Capitalism.

[Brunolem]

3 hours ago, rufanuf said:

Sadly its Fiat Currency that is the greatest swindle in the history of mankinds creation of currency.  Bitcoins value has grown with each passing year, as it gradually becomes apparent its hard to "corrupt". Like all currencies though in the end its value is not attached to anything physical hard to see how it wont go to zero...just like dollars, gbps, euros and all other fiats. An acre of land will always be an acre of land, an ounce of gold will always be an ounce of gold...maybe a piece of blockchain will always be a peace of blockchain? But its such a new innovation Id like to wait 100,000 years before passing judgement.

 

[farmerjo]

In the views of the investors,why did the the run stop when some said it was going straight to 100,000. 

Was the system itself overheating with to many people coming on board at once. 

[Lacessit]

Some people will win big, and some will lose big.

Cryptocurrencies remind me of the tulip bulb bubble of the early 1600's, where asset values deviated abnormally from intrinsic values due to herd demand. Perhaps someone can define for me the intrinsic value of a series of zeros and ones in a computer. Meantime, I'll stay out of it while the cognoscenti boast of their trading successes - which may or may not be true.

[12DrinkMore]

18 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Cryptocurrencies remind me of the tulip bulb bubble of the early 1600's

 

I am trying to work on an analogy with the bulbs. At least with the bulbs people were using cash to bid up the prices.

 

The crapto universe is like a huge field with a couple of gates. In the field there are a lot of people advertising, buying and selling different bulbs. New ones pop up out of nowhere at the rate of seven every day.

 

As you go in the gates you can exchange currency for bitcoin-bulbs. Once you are in the field only bulbs are traded for other bulbs.

 

You can now start buying ripple-bulbs with your bitcoin-bulbs. The ripple-bulb owner has a many million bulbs, but he only releases a few, holding the price high. Once he has sold for a few bitcoin-bulbs his ripple-bulbs gain a bit of traction, bringing more buyers for ripple-bulbs. Now he can release a few more ripple-bulbs and buy for himself a few boreal-bulbs, increasing their apparent value.

 

The field eventually becomes a huge circus of mutually bidding up bulbs with bulbs.

 

But to get out into a currency they all have to go through the bitcoin-bulb gatekeepers. Namely exchange first for bitcoin-bulbs and then for currency in the world that I inhabit. This does require a constant stream of wannabee bulb buyers and traders, and where ultimately reality will prevail.

 

Hmmm,

 

Yep, I think that is a fair description.

 

Unless someone wants to correct it?

[kekalot]

yawns for overblown myth

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was-real-tulip-fever-180964915/

[taiping]

31 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

Some people will win big, and some will lose big.

Cryptocurrencies remind me of the tulip bulb bubble of the early 1600's, where asset values deviated abnormally from intrinsic values due to herd demand. Perhaps someone can define for me the intrinsic value of a series of zeros and ones in a computer. Meantime, I'll stay out of it while the cognoscenti boast of their trading successes - which may or may not be true.

Cryptos have zero intrinsic value, but they have utility value as a method of peer-to-peer exchange which does not require a third party (such as a bank). Fiat currencies also have no intrinsic value except they are sanctioned by governments. However, Bitcoins have a 21-million limit while fiat currencies have no limit because governments can print them at will. The USD has lost 96% of it's purchasing power since the FED was established in 1913. I am not advocating buying cryptos at this time.

[12DrinkMore]

7 minutes ago, kekalot said:

yawns for overblown myth

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/there-never-was-real-tulip-fever-180964915/

 

Thanks, things do get distorted over time.

 

But it is widespread enough to still remain a useful analogy.

Edited January 20, 2018 by 12DrinkMore

[Acemaker]

5 hours ago, punchjudy said:

it should be called "the great crypto swindle"

 

don't you love how they call them "coins"

Fool!

[12DrinkMore]

8 minutes ago, taiping said:

However, Bitcoins have a 21-million limit while fiat currencies have no limit because governments can print them at will.

 

No quite true.

 

Although the ultimate number of bitcoins is limited, to overcome this a bitcoin is divided into itsie-bitsies.

 

• 1 BTC = 1,000 mBTC (millibitcoin)
• 1 BTC = 1,000,000 μBTC (microbitcoin)
• 1 BTC = 100,000,000 Satoshis
• 1 mBTC = 100,000 Satoshis
• 1 μBTC (microbitcoin) = 100 Satoshis

 

It is also another achilles heel of bitcoin.

 

If we ever get to the point where satoshis are worth a few Dollars and easily convertible, it would put incredible wealth into the hands of the original owners. This would never be accepted by governments or the general population.

 

That is one reason why money (cash and deposits) should not be regarded as a long term investment. Only real assets such as income generating companies and properties will hold their value over time. 

 

[12DrinkMore]

30 minutes ago, taiping said:

but they have utility value as a method of peer-to-peer exchange which does not require a third party (such as a bank).

 

Not quite true.

 

Even if the transaction is between two bitcoin owners with wallets on a USB stick, there is still a third party involved, namely the bitcoin network, which involves multiple parties.

 

And if the bitcoins are held on an exchange, you are subject to even more unregulated parties and unknown risks.

 

The peer-to-peer is certainly not what craptos are about.

 

[Golden Triangle]

I have followed every thread on cryptos on this forum, I have also done some independent research vis Google, and quite frankly I too am mystified by the whole thing, I have stated quite openly that I am willing to flutter a 1000 quid on one or two of the currencies, can I get help - ie someone sitting next to me taking me through the whole process from start to finish ? Can I Hell. thanks for nothing guys and gals.   

[taiping]

53 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Although the ultimate number of bitcoins is limited, to overcome this a bitcoin is divided into itsie-bitsies.

Same could be said of Gold Troy Ounces. It can be divided into grams (or less), but nobody says that Gold has no value.

[taiping]

32 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

Even if the transaction is between two bitcoin owners with wallets on a USB stick, there is still a third party involved, namely the bitcoin network, which involves multiple parties.

Calling the bitcoin network a third party is a bit of a stretch. You are really talking about the Internet itself, which cannot be shut-down unless there's a nuclear electromagnetic pulse or an asteroid hits us !! 

[12DrinkMore]

6 minutes ago, taiping said:

Calling the bitcoin network a third party is a bit of a stretch. You are really talking about the Internet itself, which cannot be shut-down unless there's a nuclear electromagnetic pulse or an asteroid hits us !! 

 Who manages the mempool?

[Sirbergan]

37 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

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Posted yesterday at 01:36 PM

I have decided the whole thing is incomprehensible.

 

In the last 7 days no less than 50 new craptos have been launched.

 

https://coinmarketcap.com/new/

 

So how much of all these massive market caps are convertible to real money?

 

Let's take a few samples.

 

Aurora, 1 day, USD 12 milliom.

OneRoot, 4 days, USD 16 million.

Internet Node, 4 days, USD 94 million

Telcoin, 5 days, 131 million

 

Somehow I really do not think that in one day (or three months if you go from the start) the happy owners of Aurora

 

https://auroradao.com/about/

 

have managed to create an asset worth USD 12 million.

 

 

Aurora raised 6 millions in their ICO (which was their target), which makes your statement ridiculous at best. Then you go on saying these coins have no customers, ridiculing yourself further (what are the people buying into the ICO, if not customers/stakeholders?). Stop spreading FUD or do some more research before you do.

[12DrinkMore]

21 minutes ago, Golden Triangle said:

I have followed every thread on cryptos on this forum, I have also done some independent research vis Google, and quite frankly I too am mystified by the whole thing, I have stated quite openly that I am willing to flutter a 1000 quid on one or two of the currencies, can I get help - ie someone sitting next to me taking me through the whole process from start to finish ? Can I Hell. thanks for nothing guys and gals.   

 

Have a click around this website.

 

https://bx.in.th/info/faq/

 

There's enough to start you on the journey......

[taiping]

13 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 Who manages the mempool?

Nobody "manages" the mempool. The miners authenticate transactions and add them to the Blockchain. Some cryptos (like RaiBlocks) operate by "Proof of Stake" which does not involve any miners. The whole system is trustless, unlike a bank transaction.

 

Edited January 20, 2018 by taiping

[lkn]

10 minutes ago, Sirbergan said:

what are the people buying into the ICO, if not customers/stakeholders?

Victims?

 

https://www.google.co.th/search?q=ico+scams

[12DrinkMore]

3 minutes ago, Sirbergan said:

 

Aurora raised 6 millions in their ICO (which was their target), which makes your statement ridiculous at best. Then you go on saying these coins have no customers, ridiculing yourself further (what are the people buying into the ICO, if not customers/stakeholders?). Stop spreading FUD or do some more research before you do.

 

The coins certainly have punters. I am not disputing that, never have.

 

But what have they actually bought?

 

The money has gone into the development of the platform and their software, so the engineers and management team have made some nice salaries. The company also intends to trickle out more coins as more funding is required.

 

The punters who buy into it have absolutely no rights whatsoever. They are not bond holders nor are they shareholders nor will they ever receive any return from the company if it does become a success. The company could develop an incredible application, license it to the finance industry making the shareholders billions. The boreal holders would not see a single satoshi of that. Coinholders are not stakeholders.

 

Effectively the punters have simply given the company a free donation for development, which may or may not lead somewhere.

 

It is based entirely in the hope that in the future they will be able to sell a boreal (?) for more than they paid. I cannot see any reason to have that hope or belief.

 

 

[12DrinkMore]

11 minutes ago, taiping said:

The whole system is trustless

 

As in it can't be trusted 

 

And you have to have a big measure of trust in governments to not clamp down further.

[MyFriend You]

Join the Club, you are not the only one.  I invest in Stock and my 401K, Cryptocurrency foxes me.

[taiping]

3 minutes ago, 12DrinkMore said:

 

As in it can't be trusted 

 

And you have to have a big measure of trust in governments to not clamp down further.

Obviously, in this context trustless means not relying on trust. It neatly solves what is known as the "Byzantine Generals Problem" (look it up).

I have no trust in governments, but unless they shut down the Internet they cannot stop it. 

[phycokiller]

no doubt it is surreal, my unexpected early retirement in any case