Truth In Marriage

[terry57]

i am under the opinion that when a man decide's to take a wife one of the fundamental requirements is that you can expect your wife to be honest with you.

to me a marrage must be based on trust and if one of the partners is blatantly caught lying it destroys that very base.

if this happenned to me i would always be second guessing my partner every time she told me something.

i realise that in los lying is an accepted part of the saving face process and it's the one thing i find difficult to deal with.

but to have my wife lying to me would do my head in.

dont think i could stay in a relationship were this occured.

do you think i am being unreasonable to place such a high importance upon honesty?

[thaibebop]

Truth in marriage? You tell her what she wants to know and ask no questtions.

[dee123]

absolute truth is not allways necesary,ie of course your not too fat darling,knowing that if you said she was too fat she would sit their thinking she is undesireable,etc etc...if you or her were to have a one night stand but regretted it after teling your partner knowing that it would break their heart would that be wise?....but on the other hand if it were consistant no you should not tolerate it.

[ProThaiExpat]

I was of such a mind as the OP before coming to Thailand. I have learned to aproach relationships differently here.

How much of your partner's prior life, relationships with family etc. is really your business, as long as it doesn't affect you.

It is a difficult thing to compartmentalize areas of your relationship into "truth" areas and areas in which there are sins of ommission.

I have done it successfully by changing myself, however difficult it was for one such a me, who lives an open book. Of course, mental health professionals will tell you that to expect the world to act as you do is childish.

[kmart]

The little white lies such as diplomatically answering "does my bum look big in this" are part of the glue that bonds marriages; but the important stuff is where total honesty is required.

Saving face be damned as far as outright lying goes. If the missus can't accept that's part of the Western mindset, then imho, the marriage is on the rocky road already.

[Valjean]

I’d agree with the above. I doubt 100% honesty doesn’t exist in any relationship in any culture. In every culture there are norms of acceptable lying; to be polite, to save face, to avoid conflict, to not make a problem with a boss, in a negotiation, to avoid complications, etc. We do it every day. It’s a social lubricant. If every person in every situation was totally honest I frankly don’t think that would be at all pleasant.

So any discussion that starts on the assumption that Thai’s lie in relationships and Farang don’t seems to me to be just a cultural blind spot. There are just different norms. Now of course in all cultures there are people who are liars and cheaters outside of the norms – these people should not be trusted. I think trust is essential and there is a level of lying that isn’t acceptable, But I have learned that my partner moves around the truth in a little different way than I expect sometimes. She is 100% someone I trust and we get to the bottom of things in an honest way at the right time and when it’s important. But I have found that the little “white lies” at times upset me and seem unnecessary but if I really stop and listen, and get into her shoes, I can understand the rational from her perspective and culture. And I accept the times I choose to “dance around the truth” a little myself make me no better or worse than her. And by the way this same thing exist at work for me as well (I manage a team of Thais and work in a 98% Thai employee company)

Valjean

“We don’t know who discovered water but we know it wasn’t a fish”

[pap]

There are no right or wrong answers. Each person has to be smart enough to ask themselves what they can accept and live within that norm.

If you need total honesty then thats ok. Just be clear with your significant other of that expectation. They will either meet it or not. And you will decide at that time if your restrictions are too tight or not.

There are different kinds of lies. Lies we tell ourselves and lies we tell others. Lies about unimportant things and lies about important things. One persons or cultures imbelishment is another cultures lie. And most truths or lies are genrally a matter of perspective anyway.

There will never be a one size fits all answer. Know yourself and set your expectations to make you happy. If your a good person your expectations will be reasonable.

If your not it doesn't matter because if you don't know yourself you won't be happy anyway. The world takes all kinds. Thats what makes it interesting.

[terry57]

The little white lies such as diplomatically answering "does my bum look big in this" are part of the glue that bonds marriages; but the important stuff is where total honesty is required.

Saving face be damned as far as outright lying goes. If the missus can't accept that's part of the Western mindset, then imho, the marriage is on the rocky road already.

kmart,

your post is exactly what i mean but some people seem to think different.

[JacknDanny]

i am under the opinion that when a man decide's to take a wife one of the fundamental requirements is that you can expect your wife to be honest with you.

to me a marrage must be based on trust and if one of the partners is blatantly caught lying it destroys that very base.

if this happenned to me i would always be second guessing my partner every time she told me something.

i realise that in los lying is an accepted part of the saving face process and it's the one thing i find difficult to deal with.

but to have my wife lying to me would do my head in.

dont think i could stay in a relationship were this occured.

do you think i am being unreasonable to place such a high importance upon honesty?

Crikeys mate!!!!!

Dont start going all serious on me now pal!!

You have now opened a can of worms

[pap]

The little white lies such as diplomatically answering "does my bum look big in this" are part of the glue that bonds marriages; but the important stuff is where total honesty is required.

Saving face be damned as far as outright lying goes. If the missus can't accept that's part of the Western mindset, then imho, the marriage is on the rocky road already.

kmart,

your post is exactly what i mean but some people seem to think different.

I lean to your option as well for myself. But that is a personal choice. I don't like being lied to at any level. So although I say these things are cultural my acceptance of lies is tainted by the culture I was raised in with the values I was taught. For me if you are willing to lie about something meaningless than I would expect you would lie about something important also. Those are my issues. I accept those are what I am willing to live with while simultaneously recognizing other people have other methods. Those methods don't work for me. If it works for them fine. Their choice.

But to have my trust or respect it must be earned. Even within my own culture people grow up telling different levels of lies. But honesty is relative as are most things in life.

The important part is not the honesty. Its what can you live with. Each of us differs in this respect. For me honesty is important because I can not live with someone without it. But the choice stems from what I can live with. Not the concept of honesty.

Hope that clarifies.

[pap]

Understand there are also different definitions of what is lying.

[jbowman1993]

Most of the old guys walking around Bangkok are not exactly experts when it comes to marriage as a partnership. They are happy to have a wife/servent to take care of them, which is why they came here in the first place.

[terry57]

i am under the opinion that when a man decide's to take a wife one of the fundamental requirements is that you can expect your wife to be honest with you.

to me a marrage must be based on trust and if one of the partners is blatantly caught lying it destroys that very base.

if this happenned to me i would always be second guessing my partner every time she told me something.

i realise that in los lying is an accepted part of the saving face process and it's the one thing i find difficult to deal with.

but to have my wife lying to me would do my head in.

dont think i could stay in a relationship were this occured.

do you think i am being unreasonable to place such a high importance upon honesty?

Crikeys mate!!!!!

Dont start going all serious on me now pal!!

You have now opened a can of worms

well you know me jack,

as im a fun sort of guy but there was something said in another thread that pi-ssed me off and i want to know what the punters think about this honesty gig.

i know what i think and expect, but there seems to be a few variations to what i think, so i want the punters to spit them out so i can see whether im on a winning formula or just deluding myself.

cheers

[bendix]

Most of the old guys walking around Bangkok are not exactly experts when it comes to marriage as a partnership. They are happy to have a wife/servent to take care of them, which is why they came here in the first place.

5555555

Exactly. They expect undying honesty in their partners, yet are happy to wander off to a massage parlour for a bit of extra curricular, while telling her indoors that they're in a meeting. Or hiding money in accounts in their home countries, while pleading poverty.

Come on terry . . I'm hoping that you're noble search for honesty in the wife you are 'taking' goes both ways.

[terry57]

Understand there are also different definitions of what is lying.

this is my definition of being lyed to.

if im with someone i dont care for or i dont know them very well and they lie to me well who gives a toss.

i'll give you a definition:

question: " how does one know when a bar girl is telling lies? "

answer: " when she has got her mouth open."

its a <deleted> no brainer, as that the name of the game mate.

but when its your wife, its a totally different story and im not talking about the little stuff so lets forget about that side of it.

fair play, and play on.

[kmart]

Total 100% honesty in all things 24/7 is also known as "Tourettes Syndrome", and is a terrible social affliction. Apologies to anyone who knows a sufferer....

[GuestHouse]

Bladdy Priceless Terry.

I'm rolling around my office trying not to wet myself laughing.

What's honesty when reality is such a challenge....

Irony lives!

[sceadugenga]

Sure, if it's a biggy you have a problem. You ask where she's been and she says her mother's and she's been banging her boyfriend, you have a problem. If you ask where she's been and she says her mother's and she's been to the market, her sister's and her mother's, no problem, even you only got a partial truth.

But getting hung up about her lying about banging her boyfriend is a no brainer, it's not the lie thats the problem it's the boyfriend. She is not going to tell you she's been up to no-good, and believe me this isn't just a Thai girl thing.

[PhilHarries]

Should a married couple be frank and earnest?

No, one of them should be a woman. Boom Boom!

Yeah, I know it's out of date but it used to be funny (round about the time of the industrial revolution).

It's not the lies that are the problem, it's the finding out that causes grief. So if you suspect something aint as it should be but you don't want the grief, don't ask the question. How far you take this principal depends on your own personal feelings and attitudes. Most of us tell little lies from time to time mainly to avoid aggro e.g.:

"The meeting overran and I missed the first bus" = "I had a hel_l of a day at work and thought sod the first bus I'll have a beer"

Is no big deal, but:

"The meeting overran and I missed the first bus" = "I had a great day at work and thought I'll nip into that bar for a quick BJ"

Is generally accepted to be a major transgression, just where you draw the line varies enormously.

[Jet Gorgon]

Terry Bear, speaking the same language helps to quell many of the "OK, honey" lies.

If you just want a bed warmer, cook and slipper bringer that you are saving from poverty, well, expect to only have the same interests in food and money. And expect to pay dosh for each of granma's 57 cremation ceremonies.

If you have common interests, like she knows the players on your favourite team, you can have discussions beyond aroy mak mak, and there is a common bond besides sex and saviour of the impoverished, it might work for you, Terry with a brain and sense of humour and need for mental feedback.

Do some tooth-sucking on this one. Lying comes in many guises. I give em one go. They muck it and they are back to granmas. I don't live in the same house with people I do not trust.

[jamman]

The little white lies such as diplomatically answering "does my bum look big in this" are part of the glue that bonds marriages; but the important stuff is where total honesty is required.

Saving face be damned as far as outright lying goes. If the missus can't accept that's part of the Western mindset, then imho, the marriage is on the rocky road already.

kmart,

your post is exactly what i mean but some people seem to think different.

I lean to your option as well for myself. But that is a personal choice. I don't like being lied to at any level. So although I say these things are cultural my acceptance of lies is tainted by the culture I was raised in with the values I was taught. For me if you are willing to lie about something meaningless than I would expect you would lie about something important also. Those are my issues. I accept those are what I am willing to live with while simultaneously recognizing other people have other methods. Those methods don't work for me. If it works for them fine. Their choice.

But to have my trust or respect it must be earned. Even within my own culture people grow up telling different levels of lies. But honesty is relative as are most things in life.

The important part is not the honesty. Its what can you live with. Each of us differs in this respect. For me honesty is important because I can not live with someone without it. But the choice stems from what I can live with. Not the concept of honesty.

Hope that clarifies.

Great post. Like many of us, I've also had to adjust to the Asian approach to truth. I'm a very curious man, and love learning about the world. This has eventually led me to the conclusion that there is a real external world, and that how we organize our perceptions of it, our internal maps, ultimately try to relate to it. So it is better to relate as accurately as possible, to be as truthful as possible. Lies lead to confusion.

I nearly always tell the truth, even and especially in circumstances where a lie would seem to be easier. If there is something I don't want to share, I simply don't talk about it, and if pressed will say that I refuse to talk about it. I don't recall even one time where being honest lost me any face or respect. Admitting to having more than one lover, admitting to negative emotions, or being straightforward while at the same time as diplomatic as possible, has never lost me face. What is the purpose of saying something, if it isn't true? Why bother talking?

So I agree with you, it comes down to what you want to live with. I tried living with a habitual lier. More than once. A person can learn to put up with a lot. But why bother? Is it so hard to find a woman who values the value of truth?

In SE Asia, I think the answer is yes. It is not a straightforward, truth seeking culture.

Edited January 19, 2007 by jamman

[In the Rai!]

This whole saving face thing is a cop out. I am married to a Thai and she doesnt lie. Her sisters don't lie and her friends that I know of don't lie. In fact if you love someone there is no need to lie. IMO if you or anyone thinks that their partner is lying to save face then I believe they are wrong. There is something going on, otherwise, why lie.

There are obvious exceptions to this rule, like over controlling and protective partners who don't let their wives off the leash (figure of speech) but yet come home themselves all hours of the morning.

But in Terry's case being open is the best way to deal with this.

ITR

[Jet Gorgon]

I'm honest and lethally straightforward when it comes to recalcitrant people of unmannered breeding from anywhere in the world.

Don't ask for the husband count, now.

Edited January 19, 2007 by Jet Gorgon

[Jet Gorgon]

I am married to a Thai and she doesnt lie. Her sisters don't lie and her friends that I know of don't lie. ITR

[a2396]

I think this is one of the major problems in forming stable relationships with Thai women. It seem that lieing is a foundation of the "cultural landscape" here, particularly in terms of romantic interactions. Of course, I do not expect the truth 100% of the time, but I expect some truthfull communication on important matters that are relevant to building a trusting and workable relationship, be it marriage or otherwise. It seems that Thai women do not place the same value or interest in such an expectation of honesty. My experience has been that you get the truth 25% of the time, depending on the issue. I also would not say that this a SE Asia thing. I was married to a Malaysian Chinese for 7 years and had complete honesty with her, except near the end of our marriage.

[jamman]

I think this is one of the major problems in forming stable relationships with Thai women. It seem that lieing is a foundation of the "cultural landscape" here, particularly in terms of romantic interactions. Of course, I do not expect the truth 100% of the time, but I expect some truthfull communication on important matters that are relevant to building a trusting and workable relationship, be it marriage or otherwise. It seems that Thai women do not place the same value or interest in such an expectation of honesty. My experience has been that you get the truth 25% of the time, depending on the issue. I also would not say that this a SE Asia thing. I was married to a Malaysian Chinese for 7 years and had complete honesty with her, except near the end of our marriage.

I've lived for two years in Bali, one in the Philippines, and two in Thailand. Indirectness and lying are common to those three countries, but in my opinion this is taken to the extreme most in Thailand. I have met some honest people in all three countries, but in Thailand these were the exception.

Some people mention white lies, when talking about lying. Not all lies are diplomatic - some are to manipulate other people, or to represent yourself as something that you are not. To gain advantage by words that are not in accord with actions. That kind of lying is not a white diplomatic lie, and causes problems and distress. I had to leave Thailand after those two years - largely because of the culture - the women were driving me nuts. The lies and the masks were too much to put up with, and underneath the masks I usually found empty space.

[BKKstan]

Worry about ''deceit''and ''truth'' in serious matters!No one is absolutely honest!Think about the time she asked you what you were thinking and your answer was ''nothing''!

[terry57]

Terry Bear, speaking the same language helps to quell many of the "OK, honey" lies.

If you just want a bed warmer, cook and slipper bringer that you are saving from poverty, well, expect to only have the same interests in food and money. And expect to pay dosh for each of granma's 57 cremation ceremonies.

If you have common interests, like she knows the players on your favourite team, you can have discussions beyond aroy mak mak, and there is a common bond besides sex and saviour of the impoverished, it might work for you, Terry with a brain and sense of humour and need for mental feedback.

Do some tooth-sucking on this one. Lying comes in many guises. I give em one go. They muck it and they are back to granmas. I don't live in the same house with people I do not trust.

well jet,

that is the problem is'nt it. " they start the lying business and there back to granmas "

id flick them no problem as i could not live with it.

do my head in that does.

im not married and definately not looking to get married as im way too young but i had to raise this question.

in my previous long term relationships, honesty and fidelity have never been an issue and i feel ive been very lucky with the girls i have lived with.

thing is, they leave me after 7 years, as i wont get married to them and spit out babies as im a travelling man.

" bloody lucky ain't i "

im reading all this stuff about loss of face and thats why some women lie, but its all bollicks to me.

i think im just going to be a committed batchalor and just date who i want till i kick the <deleted> bucket.

its just so much easier, and when i get to 85 years old i'll just get a live in lover.

but i must tell you miss jet, that its easy to get married, but very hard to remain single, as females sure get my blood cells flowing at warp speed, but i ain't gone down yet and refuse to give in.

the hard part will be when i make a permanent move to thailand, as being surrounded by all those gorgeous thai girls all the time could possibly send me absolutely mad, and god forbid, actually marry one.

anyway miss jet,

im not frigging married now am i ? so i can do what ever i want, as im 155% free,

so if you know off any hot pieces of crumpet on the go, you let them know that terry is up for it.

but i aint marrying any of them.

cheers miss jet.

[Neeranam]

i am under the opinion that when a man decide's to take a wife one of the fundamental requirements is that you can expect your wife to be honest with you.

and she expects you to be honest with her.

If there is lying going on the marriage is doomed to failure.

How many men would actually tell their wife about the massage parlour they visited? When you say total honesty, it means from the man AND the woman

[terry57]

Worry about ''deceit''and ''truth'' in serious matters!No one is absolutely honest!Think about the time she asked you what you were thinking and your answer was ''nothing''!

you been living under a rock stan? as that what we have just said 13000 times.

stuff the small stuff as this is only big boy's issue's.

any way mate , thanks for having a crack.

cheers.