SURVEY: Do you want Trump to finish his first term?

heybruce · July 1, 2018

4 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

I think people need to eschew taking on more data, both objective and subjective and instead open their eyes a bit wider.

Without data (information) people act in ignorance. Do you think that is a good thing?

Jingthing · July 1, 2018

These are historically dark days in America these days. Fascism is at the door. Interesting to me after watching Real Time with Bill Maher this week that he has focused the most blame on the group of irresponsible Americans that I recently mentioned. Not the white nationalist actual 45 fans as they are lost causes. Rather the morons that didn't see the existential threat that was 45 that voted for him for sport, didn't vote, or threw their vote down the toilet for an irrelevant party. They know who they are. Their lame excuses are now fully exposed. Their country was calling and they actively participated in the slide towards fascism.

It can't happen here? Here being the USA. It is happening and now that those irresponsible flotsam and jetsam that voted for Stein etc. see the mistake they made it may already be too late to reverse it.

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Andaman Al · July 1, 2018

7 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

Yeah, that's the conventional wisdom. You know what they say about conventional wisdom; it is in almost every case, wrong.

6 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

I find, on the internet, most people are wrong about most things most of the time.

I think you are wrong.

5 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

I think people need to eschew taking on more data, both objective and subjective and instead open their eyes a bit wider.

Seriously, what is 'subjective data'?

Looking at the above, you have had a challenging day today, but at least you put a smile on my face and for that I am grateful.

JestSetter · July 1, 2018

I think it is pretty obvious that BOTH parties have been corrupted by the oligarchs and the lobbyists. These groups give some money to BOTH parties. The system of two parties (right or wrong) is laughable for a democracy. It is a farce to be given only 2 choices. We know that grey matters. The real problem is the whole system is corrupt and laws/rules have been shaped to make it almost impossible to have balanced and fair laws and policies. They have -- in fact-- over time rewritten the constitution. Doesn't that remind you of something?

It does not matter whom you vote for. Even the best of people in both parties are crushed by the ideologues who are subject to the perseverance bias. Many are elected because they like the limelight.

The only chance we have is to change the system by decent public figures (who have not much to gain because they have enough fame and enough money and believe they do) to run for elections. Once they get in, they can try to clean up the system. There will be lots of resistance and lots of poor sportmanship, of course, but because of their proven record, they could win and could make a difference ultimately. Ideally we would have investigative journalists, incisive directors,... (Michael Moore, Oliver Stone, Merrill Streep,...) willing to put their neck out. and change the system. Email them.

The USA is not a democracy. Deal with it. It might be just as bad as another country you know of.

If you are going to criticize this, be prepared to be kind and offer a solution. If you are and aren't prepared to be kind and offer a solution, you are a problem. We have enough problems.

Edited July 1, 2018 by JestSetter

Jingthing · July 1, 2018

6 minutes ago, JestSetter said:

...
It does not matter whom you vote for.
...

I call total B.S.

If you think the election of "trump" doesn't have massively dire consequences to the future of the USA, you simply aren't paying attention.

There was only one rational choice in the last election for any decent American that would have PREVENTED that.

But, sadly, in presidential elections your vote only counts in SWING states.

That is under 10 states out of 50.

That is indeed a ROTTEN situation structurally.

heybruce · July 1, 2018

10 minutes ago, JestSetter said:

I think it is pretty obvious that BOTH parties have been corrupted by the oligarchs and the lobbyists. These groups give some money to BOTH parties. The system of two parties (right or wrong) is laughable for a democracy. It is a farce to be given only 2 choices. We know that grey matters. The real problem is the whole system is corrupt and laws/rules have been shaped to make it almost impossible to have balanced and fair laws and policies. They have -- in fact-- over time rewritten the constitution. Doesn't that remind you of something?

It does not matter whom you vote for. Even the best of people in both parties are crushed by the ideologues who are subject to the perseverance bias. Many are elected because they like the limelight.

The only chance we have is to change the system by decent public figures (who have not much to gain because they have enough fame and enough money and believe they do) to run for elections. Once they get in, they can try to clean up the system. There will be lots of resistance and lots of poor sportmanship, of course, but because of their proven record, they could win and could make a difference ultimately. Ideally we would have investigative journalists, incisive directors,... (Michael Moore, Oliver Stone, Merrill Streep,...) willing to put their neck out. and change the system. Email them.

The USA is not a democracy. Deal with it. It might be just as bad as another country you know of.

If you are going to criticize this, be prepared to be kind and offer a solution. If you are and aren't prepared to be kind and offer a solution, you are a problem. We have enough problems.

An "everything is rotten" rant designed to generate apathy. To what end?

A multi-party system with two dominant parties is what we have. Until the election system is changed, either by using run-offs when no party achieves an out-right majority, or using a ranked--choice voting system https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/14/in-praise-of-ranked-choice-voting it is what we are stuck with.

Voting for the least bad candidate is not appealing, but it is better than wasting votes. Rodriguez Duterte, President of the Philippines, was elected with 39% of the vote in a four way election. The US could easily get someone like that if people don't vote intelligently.

JestSetter · July 1, 2018

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

An "everything is rotten" rant designed to generate apathy. To what end?

To end the madness. I know about "perseverance bias".

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

A multi-party system with two dominant parties is what we have. Until the election system is changed, either by using run-offs when no party achieves an out-right majority, or using a ranked--choice voting system https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/14/in-praise-of-ranked-choice-voting it is what we are stuck with.

No one is going to change the system. The status quo is the problem.

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Voting for the least bad candidate is not appealing, but it is better than wasting votes.

I understand and that is the rational thing to do, but if one is given a car that has no brakes and no steering wheel and one has a steering wheel, one should not agree to drive it.

I have offered a solution. The status quo is not a solution. Debate the solution.

JestSetter · July 1, 2018

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I call total B.S.

You quote one sentence and you state that is TOTAL BS.

I call that TOTAL BS.

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

If you think the election of "trump" doesn't have massively dire consequences to the future of the USA, you simply aren't paying attention.

It does. It was the worst outcome, but it might be what is needed to change the whole system. The guy is so outrageously bad, people are getting frustrated. That's good, in some ways. The other kind (the mostly status quo democrats to which Clinton represents ) is a little better. Sanders would have been a better choice. He might have been able to change a few things if they did not kill him. However, they cannot or will not drastically fix the structural problems. The system has benefited Bill Clinton and Hilary a lot. Why would they change it? Do they live in a normal house? Do they drive a normal car?

21 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

There was only one rational choice in the last election for any decent American that would have PREVENTED that.

But, sadly, in presidential elections your vote only counts in SWING states.

That is under 10 states out of 50.

That is indeed a ROTTEN situation structurally.

There is a structural problem and no one of the present parties are willing to change the systems because both are corrupt, by and large. So, you do agree with me. So, what I wrote was not total BS. Partial BS? LOL

Jingthing · July 1, 2018

You're not paying attention. I'm talking about the supreme court. I'm talking about the actual arrival of American style real deal fascism. Your naive POV presumes this can be reversed. Can Turkey be reversed? Yes, I feel more intense hostility to people trying to rationalize not trying to stop "trump" when we could (the election) than his deplorable actual supporters. You should know better. Instead you're living in some kind of fantasy land. It's probably TOO LATE now. Thanks for nothing Stein voters (and similar).

And you know, the fact that people like you STILL don't get it, STILL don't get the mistake that was made (not stopping him when we could) makes it even worse.

There are political mistakes and then there is toxic DENIAL.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Jingthing

heybruce · July 1, 2018

12 minutes ago, JestSetter said:

To end the madness. I know about "perseverance bias".

No one is going to change the system. The status quo is the problem.

I understand and that is the rational thing to do, but if one is given a car that has no brakes and no steering wheel and one has a steering wheel, one should not agree to drive it.

I have offered a solution. The status quo is not a solution. Debate the solution.

Your "solution" is to " change the system by decent public figures (who have not much to gain because they have enough fame and enough money and believe they do) to run for elections. "

There is nothing in the current system to prevent that. There never has been. How is that a solution?

JestSetter · July 1, 2018

44 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're not paying attention. I'm talking about the supreme court. I'm talking about the actual arrival of American style real deal fascism. Your naive POV presumes this can be reversed. Can Turkey be reversed? Yes, I feel more intense hostility to people trying to rationalize not trying to stop "trump" when we could (the election) than his deplorable actual supporters. You should know better. Instead you're living in some kind of fantasy land. It's probably TOO LATE now. Thanks for nothing Stein voters (and similar).

And you know, the fact that people like you STILL don't get it, STILL don't get the mistake that was made (not stopping him when we could) makes it even worse.

There are political mistakes and then there is toxic DENIAL.

I did not read past "naive". I am not here to get lectured. I am here to --at least-- get a dialogue going. Bye.

JestSetter · July 1, 2018

43 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Your "solution" is to " change the system by decent public figures (who have not much to gain because they have enough fame and enough money and believe they do) to run for elections. "

There is nothing in the current system to prevent that. There never has been. How is that a solution?

That is true, but you missed the part where I asked citizens to lobby them. I am using the technique that the oligarchs are using. I wish solutions would be getting a more serious, more sincere, and respectful reading.

But, what are you proposing exactly, except using the imperfect systems that lead to the same outcome --or close to it-- every single time we elect a president. It has not worked and it will nto work. The systems are rotten to the core.

JestSetter · July 1, 2018

53 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

You're not paying attention. I'm talking about the supreme court. I'm talking about the actual arrival of American style real deal fascism. Your naive POV presumes this can be reversed. Can Turkey be reversed? Yes, I feel more intense hostility to people trying to rationalize not trying to stop "trump" when we could (the election) than his deplorable actual supporters. You should know better. Instead you're living in some kind of fantasy land. It's probably TOO LATE now. Thanks for nothing Stein voters (and similar).

And you know, the fact that people like you STILL don't get it, STILL don't get the mistake that was made (not stopping him when we could) makes it even worse.

There are political mistakes and then there is toxic DENIAL.

Moreover, please do read research on people who have a superiority complex. The know-it-all don't know it all.

There are extremists on both sides of the political spectrum. I am not a Trump fan and to describe me as being one is such a misreading that I wonder if you are not suffering perseverance bias. I am being polite.

heybruce · July 1, 2018

10 minutes ago, JestSetter said:

That is true, but you missed the part where I asked citizens to lobby them. I am using the technique that the oligarchs are using. I wish solutions would be getting a more serious, more sincere, and respectful reading.

But, what are you proposing exactly, except using the imperfect systems that lead to the same outcome --or close to it-- every single time we elect a president. It has not worked and it will nto work. The systems are rotten to the core.

Your solution is to lobby "decent public figures". What is your selection criteria for choosing who to lobby, and how do you propose people go about this lobbying?

Nothing is preventing those interested in running for office from doing so. Those uninterested are unlikely to be swayed by lobbying from strangers.

My solution is for people to inform themselves and vote intelligently. My individual approach is to use forums such as this to inform and discuss. I won't make much of an impact by myself, but if more people did this it could make a difference.

Edited July 1, 2018 by heybruce

Andaman Al · July 1, 2018

1 hour ago, JestSetter said:

The only chance we have is to change the system by decent public figures (who have not much to gain because they have enough fame and enough money and believe they do) to run for elections.

I have to disagree. What we need are the right caliber people that are motivated and inspired to run the country on behalf of the American people. There are many many people that are motivated by much higher things than money. People with loads of money are the totally wrong people as they can never shed their desire for money nor can they shed their business habits that made them that money (the lobbying, the under the table deals, the 'payback, the old boy network). We need people like we used to have that WANT to be POTUS because it is the best job in the world (apart from being a fighter pilot ? ), we need people that love to serve the people. We don't want celebrity or billionaires.

Funny isn't out that any Administrative appointment must be vetted and the individual must be approved by congressional committee, yet not one person checks over the suitability of the person that wants to become POTUS. Things are broken and need fixing.

JestSetter · July 1, 2018

49 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Your solution is to lobby "decent public figures". What is your selection criteria for choosing who to lobby, and how do you propose people go about this lobbying?

I said "decent public figures" who could make a difference. Arnold Schwartz. and Reagan are not whom I am think about, but I guess we could say that the Rep. used that strategy then. It is up to the left and the centre to imitate, I guess. The more decent will get solicited more. Social media to talking face to face. Use your imagination.

Quote

Nothing is preventing those interested in running for office from doing so. Those uninterested are unlikely to be swayed by lobbying from strangers.

Not true. Maybe they are not as decent as they say they are then. If they cannot walk the talk then bye bye. If they are courted, they might oblige.

Quote

My solution is for people to inform themselves and vote intelligently.

I am sorry. That has been happened since the publication of the first newspaper and since schooling became obligatory. It is happening now and it has not changed. In fact, we could say that the evidence is that the situation is getting worse. Trump anyone?

Quote

My individual approach is to use forums such as this to inform and discuss. I won't make much of an impact by myself, but if more people did this it could make a difference.

I know this is a reasonable approach, but has it worked? Read about perseverance bias. There is not a hope in hell you can convert most people to change their position. It would be tantamount to admitting that they are idiots for most of them.

Beside, how many people read this? At the same time, you could say the same about the way I go about this. I cannot compete with Bloomberg. I am hoping someone on social media will run with it. I will do my part and contacting whoever I feel is a decent human being. It is a wild shot in the dark, I admit. It is better than the status quo and hoping that people will educate themselves though, I think.

Edited July 1, 2018 by JestSetter

Andaman Al · July 1, 2018

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

Rodriguez Duterte, President of the Philippines, was elected with 39% of the vote in a four way election. The US could easily get someone like that if people don't vote intelligently.

????...............They did get someone like that.

JestSetter · July 1, 2018

The problem is how the US government continues to meddle into other countries' business. I read 78 as I speak (source: RT, Going underground, investigative journalist). This HAS TO STOP. The world bank and the IMF,... meddle also. It has happened for decades. Enough. Americans should not export their crap, exploit people and situations. Most of what is imported is religious-based or ideological -based. There is a financial component as well, of course. Hollywood is soft propaganda too. Watch Hollywood DC. No other nation in the world does this like the US. What they are doing STINKS. However, other nations are slowly fighting back. People are slowly getting what is going on. How many American movies involve guns, the military, or the CIA/FBI? Coincidence? How many are re-writing history? How many are showing dysfunctionality? Enough!

The immigration issues in Europe was caused --by and large-- by the US meddling in the Middle East. Russians going into Afghanistan? That is different.

JHolmesJr · July 1, 2018

He's not only going to finish his first term but he's setting himself up well for the second

https://nypost.com/2018/06/30/the-left-needs-to-face-reality-trump-is-winning/

Edited July 1, 2018 by JHolmesJr

bristolboy · July 1, 2018

27 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

He's not only going to finish his first term but he's setting himself up well for the second

https://nypost.com/2018/06/30/the-left-needs-to-face-reality-trump-is-winning/

I read it.Goodwin cherry picks polls.

If you want to read a serious polling analysis here it is. And if you don't the takeaway is that when voters are asked about which party they plan to vote for the democrats currently have a 5 point lead on average But if you ask them about using their vote to stop Trump the margin increases dramatically.

Deadweight Donald

"Polls show the president is an albatross on his party heading into November."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/polls-show-donald-trump-is-an-albatross-on-his-party-heading-into-november.html

And Goodwin's comment about the tax cuts , as though they were popular, is coming from an alternate reality.

"It’s been six months since President Donald Trump signed into law the Republican tax cuts. During that time, the measure appears to have become less popular — not more. The GOP’s big 2018 midterms sales pitch isn’t working out exactly how party leaders thought it would.

A RealClearPolitics average of tax law polling indicates that about 36.1 percent of Americans are on board with the tax measure and 43 percent are not, a nearly 7 percentage point difference."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/22/17492468/republican-tax-cut-law-poll

And Goodwin's belief that the Supreme Court won't undo abortion rights or gay marriage because of respect for precedence is a hope based on fantasy. Trump is going to continue to appoint hard right fanatics. They will overturn both. Abortion rights may be closer to a 50-50 thing with the pubic, depending on how hard a ban they allow, but gay marriage is overwhelmingly popular in the USA. When that's overturned, that's going to anger people with gay friends and relations. Not to mention prominent gay people they admire.

Opl · July 1, 2018

54 minutes ago, JHolmesJr said:

He's not only going to finish his first term but he's setting himself up well for the second

https://nypost.com/2018/06/30/the-left-needs-to-face-reality-trump-is-winning/

TRUMP, THE GAME

Edited July 1, 2018 by Opl

Jingthing · July 1, 2018

I did not read past "naive". I am not here to get lectured. I am here to --at least-- get a dialogue going. Bye.

Fine with me. I still think people that think it was OK to not do the one thing that could have realistically stopped 45 that aren't his fans have a moral responsibility to own up to what they personally did to help bring this American dark ages about. That's a first step and if you ain't willing to go there I can't see how people like that will be helpful in future. What did you do to prevent America from becoming fascist Daddy? Oh I voted for Jill Stein and help "trump" to win. Brilliant.

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JestSetter · July 1, 2018

5 minutes ago, bristolboy said:

I read it.Goodwin cherry picks polls.

If you want to read a serious polling analysis here it is. And if you don't the takeaway is that when voters are asked about which party they plan to vote for the democrats currently have a 5 point lead on average But if you ask them about using their vote to stop Trump the margin increases dramatically.

Deadweight Donald

"Polls show the president is an albatross on his party heading into November."

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/polls-show-donald-trump-is-an-albatross-on-his-party-heading-into-november.html

And Goodwin's comment about the tax cuts , as though they were popular, is coming from an alternate reality.

"It’s been six months since President Donald Trump signed into law the Republican tax cuts. During that time, the measure appears to have become less popular — not more. The GOP’s big 2018 midterms sales pitch isn’t working out exactly how party leaders thought it would.

A RealClearPolitics average of tax law polling indicates that about 36.1 percent of Americans are on board with the tax measure and 43 percent are not, a nearly 7 percentage point difference."

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/22/17492468/republican-tax-cut-law-poll

And Goodwin's belief that the Supreme Court won't undo abortion rights or gay marriage because of respect for precedence is a hope based on fantasy. Trump is going to continue to appoint hard right fanatics. They will overturn both. Abortion rights may be closer to a 50-50 thing with the pubic, depending on how hard a ban they allow, but gay marriage is overwhelmingly popular in the USA. When that's overturned, that's going to anger people with gay friends and relations. Not to mention prominent gay people they admire.

Tax cuts. I wonder what those tariffs are going to cause. The rich don't care. Better get used to have 3 jobs to keep up with the Jones.

Trump might be an idiot, but the people behind him are not. Do not count those people as idiots. They know what Trump represent and can do. Trump has sided with the religious groups by supporting their behaviours and needs. That's all they want: to win the ideological war. In the MEANtime, the rest of the right love money and decadence to feed their ego. It is a weird mix, but so far it is working. It was, until the children story broke out. Trump backed down a little with the exe. order. Egomaniacs are pathological liars. They have learned to get out of an embarrassing situation all of their lives.

JestSetter · July 1, 2018

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

Fine with me. I still think people that think it was OK to not do the one thing that could have realistically stopped 45 that aren't his fans have a moral responsibility to own up to what they personally did to help bring this American dark ages about. That's a first step and if you ain't willing to go there I can't see how people like that will be helpful in future. What did you do to prevent America from becoming fascist Daddy? Oh I voted for Jill Stein and help "trump" to win. Brilliant.

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Did you read the know-it-all piece? It fits you to perfection.

You are trying to malign me t(anyone who disagrees with you) to make you look more intelligent than you really are. Egomaniacs do that. They bring down other people (inventing a storyline that make them look bad) and then continue living in a dream.

Hey, stop being an egomaniac and a bully. They have pissed me off in the past. I don't like egomaniacs.

Jingthing · July 1, 2018

Moreover, please do read research on people who have a superiority complex. The know-it-all don't know it all.

There are extremists on both sides of the political spectrum. I am not a Trump fan and to describe me as being one is such a misreading that I wonder if you are not suffering perseverance bias. I am being polite.

I never said nor did I imply you were a "trump" fan. Weird that you accuse me of that.

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Jingthing · July 1, 2018

Did you read the know-it-all piece? It fits you to perfection.

You are trying to malign me t(anyone who disagrees with you) to make you look more intelligent than you really are. Egomaniacs do that. They bring down other people (inventing a storyline that make them look bad) and then continue living in a dream.

Hey, stop being an egomaniac and a bully. They have pissed me off in the past. I don't like egomaniacs.

Put me on ignore if you don't like what I post.

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lannarebirth · July 1, 2018

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

You clearly think changes to the Democratic Party is worth the damage Trump is doing to the US, and especially the future damage to the US. I disagree.

That's because you don't see that the damage to the US has already been done. Trump is merely step one in the reckoning or maybe the last slide down before the reckoning. It won't just be the US either. The bill's come due.

lannarebirth · July 1, 2018

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

You make no attempt to argue my point that voting for parties that have no chance of being elected is a wasted vote and sometimes allows the worst candidate to win, you just claim that since it is conventional wisdom it must be wrong.

Actually conventional wisdom, things like "What goes up must come down", is generally correct. There are exceptions, but regarding gravity and third party voting in the US, these exceptions are rare.

You're thinking short term as almost everyone does. Yes, the 3rd party may be a spoiler in the short run. But there's a level where people like yourself will change over. What if the 3rd party is polling at 20% and your favored candidate is polling at 30%. What have you got to lose by voting for the third party if you think they are the better candidate? It's not like your candidate is going to win, is it?

lannarebirth · July 1, 2018

8 hours ago, heybruce said:

Without data (information) people act in ignorance. Do you think that is a good thing?

Data doesn't do away with ignorance, nor does knowledge which is derived from data. Understanding, which is derived from knowledge does, because it allows you to connect the data to seemingly disconnected things. From that stems perspective and hopefully, eventually, wisdom.

Jingthing · July 1, 2018

Alec Baldwin video about 45's crimes worth watching in link..

2018 12:23 am

Alec Baldwin Is Going to Need You to Get Personally Involved in Robert Mueller’s Russia Probe

http://www.vulture.com/amp/2018/07/alec-baldwin-wants-you-to-get-involved-in-russia-probe.html

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SURVEY: Do you want Trump to finish his first term?