When Farangs Go Native

[sanemax]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

LOL. The French would be surprised at that, given it was part of French Indochina from 1893 till autonomy in 1949 and independence in 1953.

 

Only the name of Siam was changed in 1948

Wikipedia.

The signature of King Mongkut (r. 1851–1868) reads SPPM (Somdet Phra Poramenthra Maha) Mongkut King of the Siamese, giving the name "Siam" official status until 24 June 1939 when it was changed to Thailand. Thailand was renamed to Siam from 1946 to 1948, after which it again reverted to Thailand.

 

Yes, but I was referring to Maejos graph entitled "Siam 1911" and I was pointing out that included both Thailand and Laos

I do not have the inclination to explain further

 

[JLCrab]

I enjoy speaking Thai as well as several other languages both European and Asian. It is fun to have a conversation with someone in Thailand who does not speak English and I am nowhere near fluent. While I would never say that it is necessary that a farang living in Thailand learn Thai, there certainly is a wider range of experiences available to you if you do than if you don't.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I enjoy speaking Thai as well as several other languages both European and Asian. It is fun to have a conversation with someone in Thailand who does not speak English and I am nowhere near fluent. While I would never say that it is necessary that a farang living in Thailand learn Thai, there certainly is a wider range of experiences available to you if you do than if you don't.

There is a wide range of experiences in LOS that I will never have. I don't miss any that I might have had that required me to have conversational Thai.

[JLCrab]

How do you know?

[rott]

On 1/31/2018 at 3:53 PM, BigC said:

I hate Forangs trying to be thai but also hate forang not respecting Thailand 

 

dont lile competition people competing to see who is more thai than the next man

who speaks the most thai

whos been here the longest 

 

it’s all <deleted>

Never seen "Forang" before. one to add to the list.

 

Farang, falang, falung, farlung, forang. Funny I can usually come up with more than that.

[richard_smith237]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

17 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

I enjoy speaking Thai as well as several other languages both European and Asian. It is fun to have a conversation with someone in Thailand who does not speak English and I am nowhere near fluent. While I would never say that it is necessary that a farang living in Thailand learn Thai, there certainly is a wider range of experiences available to you if you do than if you don't.

There is a wide range of experiences in LOS that I will never have. I don't miss any that I might have had that required me to have conversational Thai.

 

A Perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect... 

[speedtripler]

16 minutes ago, rott said:

Never seen "Forang" before. one to add to the list.

 

Farang, falang, falung, farlung, forang. Funny I can usually come up with more than that.

You must be losing your touch.... 

[rott]

7 minutes ago, speedtripler said:

You must be losing your touch.... 

Quite. 

 

Fancy forgetting farlang. I can never show my face on here again.

[Neeranam]

4 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

When did I ever say I can't read Central Thai?

If you can read it, you can speak it.

[Neeranam]

37 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There is a wide range of experiences in LOS that I will never have. I don't miss any that I might have had that required me to have conversational Thai.

Unbelievable, really. 

[MaeJoMTB]

48 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

There is a wide range of experiences in LOS that I will never have. I don't miss any that I might have had that required me to have conversational Thai.

Sadly, I must agree.

China, completely different, I got absolutely nowhere in China without memorizing some of the symbols.

(A few town names, train station, departure time, delay, airport and pork .... DIm Sum filled with anything but pork was disgusting).

[speedtripler]

5 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

Sadly, I must agree.

China, completely different, I got absolutely nowhere in China without memorizing some of the symbols.

(A few town names, train station, departure time, delay, airport and pork .... DIm Sum filled with anything but pork was disgusting).

 

China IS disgusting.... 

[duanebigsby]

On 2/1/2018 at 8:57 AM, ZeVonderBearz said:

And leave Thailand to the old boys who've been here the longest and now spend their time telling others to go home. 

You did complain  about "these people"

[smutcakes]

1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

A Perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger effect... 

Very much this, old TBL is in literally every single topic, whatever the topic he writes as if he is a world authority on the subject. 

 

I am starting to suspect he might be an alt of craig3365

[Gecko123]

Regarding the Thai language debate raging a few pages back, I would argue that the more you are aware of what is going on around you, the better off you're going to be. Not being able to communicate in the local language puts a person at a serious disadvantage in terms of understanding what is going on around you. Comments along the lines of "Thai people never talk about anything of interest anyway" just rationalize one's not having developed the skill. I can assure you there is plenty to be learned from Thai people. I do appreciate, however, that some people do have impairments, especially as they get older, which make learning a foreign language more of a challenge, hearing and memory problems for example. While I have often encouraged others to learn the language, if they don't, my attitude is 'your loss, not mine."

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Gecko123

[bannork]

10 hours ago, rott said:

Never seen "Forang" before. one to add to the list.

 

Farang, falang, falung, farlung, forang. Funny I can usually come up with more than that.

Forangs are very poor farangs usually found foraging in rubbish bins, but due to constantly having colds due to their poor diet they always describe themselves as forangs.

[MrPatrickThai]

On 03/02/2018 at 7:36 PM, mikiea said:

haha haha haha ....you are to easy   haha aha gaa 

In English please.

[MrPatrickThai]

13 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

Not being able to communicate in the local language puts a person at a serious disadvantage in terms of understanding what is going on around you. Comments along the lines of "Thai people never talk about anything of interest anyway" just rationalize one's not having developed the skill.

Of course. This is true in with any foreign country with a different  language. Not making any attempt to learn, even if you are a tourist, is madness, total madness. Somehow trying to show that you are superior to the countrymen you live among.

[isaanbanhou]

11 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Of course. This is true in with any foreign country with a different  language. Not making any attempt to learn, even if you are a tourist, is madness, total madness. Somehow trying to show that you are superior to the countrymen you live among.

trying to show or expressing that you are superior to the locals appears to be the only reason some posters live in

 

Thailand. In their home countries these men are nothings, here they are pathetic nothings

[wildewillie89]

13 hours ago, Gecko123 said:

'your loss, not mine.

Exactly. It is a decision that is completely up to the individual. So for other's to feel the need to constantly speak down to those who do not speak the language, claim to know everything about the country due to the fact they speak an incredibly basic level of the language, or even have the fanatical belief that you cant walk safely down the street without being fluent in Thai is ridiculous. 

 

On the most part, most people get by just fine even without any language ability. That suggests learning Thai is an interest, not a need. As it is an interest many people will obviously find even the most mundane subjects incredibly enjoyable. For many others who have absolutely no interest in language, it would take years of formal learning (assuming people's physical make/lifestyle allows for it), to get to that level of satisfaction. Both situations are completely okay. 

Serious disadvantage? Understanding the environment you learn from living in the environment. I, for instance, would have a better understanding and usually volunteer more of my time to local government/community and police services available to people than the actual locals themselves. Why? As I am surrounded by it everyday through family member's positions. There is no details one cannot find out speaking English if they speak to credible sources.

Just look at a common topic always posted here regarding nuisance cases. The people who have lived in Thai for years and speak Thai always say go and speak to the village head. Thai people who know the systems do not do that (they go to the public health official), as they know the village head has no power over the matter and calls the local health official anyway (wasting time). Or even the crazy stories of I spoke Thai to someone and they told me even if you pay the fine with receipt to a police officer they still keep all the money. It is absurd, police and municipalities both fall under the Ministry of Interior so a percentage of that money is spread out to benefit the community. Many of my wife's projects are funded by that money. So there is always the flip side of what you think is learning the environment, that is their Thai has resulted into speaking to sources that are not credible and get a completely wrong picture of the environment around them. I am of the belief people have an equal opportunity learning what they need to learn with English and Thai as it is not language, but the credibility of the people you communicate with. Anything else comes down to interest. Everyone has different interests but they should be kept close to the person, I don't try and force people to love dogs and think they are stupid or unbelievable for not for example. 

[MrPatrickThai]

8 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

Exactly. It is a decision that is completely up to the individual. So for other's to feel the need to constantly speak down to those who do not speak the language, claim to know everything about the country due to the fact they speak an incredibly basic level of the language, or even have the fanatical belief that you cant walk safely down the street without being fluent in Thai is ridiculous. 

 

On the most part, most people get by just fine even without any language ability. That suggests learning Thai is an interest, not a need. As it is an interest many people will obviously find even the most mundane subjects incredibly enjoyable. For many others who have absolutely no interest in language, it would take years of formal learning (assuming people's physical make/lifestyle allows for it), to get to that level of satisfaction. Both situations are completely okay. 

Serious disadvantage? Understanding the environment you learn from living in the environment. I, for instance, would have a better understanding and usually volunteer more of my time to local government/community and police services available to people than the actual locals themselves. Why? As I am surrounded by it everyday through family member's positions. There is no details one cannot find out speaking English if they speak to credible sources.

Just look at a common topic always posted here regarding nuisance cases. The people who have lived in Thai for years and speak Thai always say go and speak to the village head. Thai people who know the systems do not do that (they go to the public health official), as they know the village head has no power over the matter and calls the local health official anyway (wasting time). Or even the crazy stories of I spoke Thai to someone and they told me even if you pay the fine with receipt to a police officer they still keep all the money. It is absurd, police and municipalities both fall under the Ministry of Interior so a percentage of that money is spread out to benefit the community. Many of my wife's projects are funded by that money. So there is always the flip side of what you think is learning the environment, that is their Thai has resulted into speaking to sources that are not credible and get a completely wrong picture of the environment around them. I am of the belief people have an equal opportunity learning what they need to learn with English and Thai as it is not language, but the credibility of the people you communicate with. Anything else comes down to interest. Everyone has different interests but they should be kept close to the person, I don't try and force people to love dogs and think they are stupid or unbelievable for not for example. 

It is rather a selfish attitude, perhaps even lazy, refusing to learn the language of you're adopted country. At the weekend a neighbour came running to my house asking for help as there was a cobra in her kitchen. This is in a large city. I explained that I was scared of them but had the number of the local guy who sees to this kinda thing, called him and he came quickly to remove the snake. After living here for more than 25 years, I could give hundreds of similar stories about the benefits of learning Thai when living in Thailand but it would fall upon deaf ears. Some have made up their mind that it's too difficult as soon as they get off the plane. I love dogs too, and my beloved 10 year old German shepherd died recently. I was going crazy trying to dig a grave and bury him before my kids got back from school. I paid 2 labourers working nearby 300 baht to do it. We had a long conversation about how dogs give unconditional love, a very moving experience. 

 

 

[wildewillie89]

15 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

It is rather a selfish attitude, perhaps even lazy, refusing to learn the language of you're adopted country. At the weekend a neighbour came running to my house asking for help as there was a cobra in her kitchen. This is in a large city. I explained that I was scared of them but had the number of the local guy who sees to this kinda thing, called him and he came quickly to remove the snake. After living here for more than 25 years, I could give hundreds of similar stories about the benefits of learning Thai when living in Thailand but it would fall upon deaf ears. Some have made up their mind that it's too difficult as soon as they get off the plane. I love dogs too, and my beloved 10 year old German shepherd died recently. I was going crazy trying to dig a grave and bury him before my kids got back from school. I paid 2 labourers working nearby 300 baht to do it. We had a long conversation about how dogs give unconditional love, a very moving experience. 

 

 

How is it a selfish attitude? I was told by my employers not to speak Thai. So I don't require Thai for my day times. My evenings I spend with my family, and situations like neighbours snakes I have dealt with myself without the need to speak Thai. Like I said, most of these stories there is no NEED, it is just interest. If you want to talk on a basic level, then great, I think that is fantastic, but that is your interest. I don't feel the need to call you selfish for doing that. But for many others, they don't require that. The Thai government also doesn't require it from farang, and when the Thai government does, from what I have seen it is pretty basic anyway. 

I have given examples of the education system, I have given examples of the official systems, I have given scenarios of what would be needed to reach satisfying levels (almost impossible for many), and I have even asked for the anthropological paper regarding the wai/cashier scenario earlier (can be in Thai)...all that has come back is terms such as stupid, selfish, lazy, unbelievable, cant go to mechanic, it is dangerous - not credible/logical thought out answers. If that is the kind of things I will be learning from speaking 'fluent' Thai then I will stick to working full time and educating/taking care of my two young children and dogs rather than doing night school for the next few years. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by wildewillie89

[MrPatrickThai]

4 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

The Thai government also doesn't require it from farang, and when the Thai government does, from what I have seen it is pretty basic anyway. 

They do if you apply for permanent Residency and Citizenship.

[wildewillie89]

1 minute ago, MrPatrickThai said:

They do if you apply for permanent Residency and Citizenship.

And from what I have seen, even mentioned in this thread, the questions were incredibly basic. I have no intention of ever applying for citizenship.

Edited February 5, 2018 by wildewillie89

[MaeJoMTB]

6 minutes ago, wildewillie89 said:

How is it a selfish attitude?

How is Thailand our adopted country? I just stay here 90 days at a time, other people stay here 1 year at a time.

Says on my passport 'non-immigrant', why should I learn a language that only 30% of the Thai population speak as a 1st language.

I guess one could argue that I should learn my wife's language, but that language would be Lao, and nobody is offering courses in Lao.

 

Edited February 5, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[Naam]

17 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

It is rather a selfish attitude, perhaps even lazy, refusing to learn the language of you're adopted country. At the weekend a neighbour came running to my house asking for help as there was a cobra in her kitchen. This is in a large city. I explained that I was scared of them but had the number of the local guy who sees to this kinda thing, called him and he came quickly to remove the snake. After living here for more than 25 years, I could give hundreds of similar stories about the benefits of learning Thai when living in Thailand but it would fall upon deaf ears. Some have made up their mind that it's too difficult as soon as they get off the plane. I love dogs too, and my beloved 10 year old German shepherd died recently. I was going crazy trying to dig a grave and bury him before my kids got back from school. I paid 2 labourers working nearby 300 baht to do it. We had a long conversation about how dogs give unconditional love, a very moving experience.

you are a dog lover and therefore excused for bringing up the necessity of speaking Thai in connection with a cobra in your neighbour's kitchen. however, discussing a man's best friend with two Thai chaps justifies your demand for speaking Thai.

 

but please don't forget that some of us are agewise advanced, our hearing is impaired and if you can't hear the frequencies above 9 kiloHertz any attempt to learn a tonal language is futile.

[JLCrab]

6 minutes ago, MaeJoMTB said:

<snip>why should I learn a language that only 30% of the Thai population speak as a 1st language. <snip2>

... and as a  lot of that 30% don't speak English, it all depends on which part of that 30% is of interest to you.

[MrPatrickThai]

2 minutes ago, Naam said:

you are a dog lover and therefore excused for bringing up the necessity of speaking Thai in connection with a cobra in your neighbour's kitchen. however, discussing a man's best friend with two Thai chaps justifies your demand for speaking Thai.

 

but please don't forget that some of us are agewise advanced, our hearing is impaired and if you can't hear the frequencies above 9 kiloHertz any attempt to learn a tonal language is futile.

Just one of many examples. Talking about the philosophy of karma at the local temple. Talking about cryptocurrencies at the Rotary Club dinner on Friday night, talking about paying my mortgage off at the bank last week, searching on Panthip.com about the best univerities in bangkok etc etc

 

Many deaf people can speak Thai. What's your excuse for not writing it?

[Gecko123]

Wildewillie:

 

No one said speaking Thai would protect you from an unprovoked attack on the street. But Thai could help you defuse a confrontation, as has been shown on numerous videos of altercations. Also, Thai language ability might help alert you to a danger you would otherwise not be able to perceive: there's a cobra in the grass, that insect is poisonous, that dog has rabies, he can't be trusted, there are jelly fish in the water today, these trees are infested with beetles and their limbs sometimes unexpectedly break off and injure people. etc. If you want to tell yourself there'll always be an English speaking person around who knows of the danger who will alert you, go right ahead. Think you're kidding yourself however.

 

You seem to be reasoning that because (in your opinion) English speaking people provide more accurate information than Thai speaking people, better to just go directly to the more accurate source and save yourself all the run around. Maybe true in some cases, but hardly something you can generalize about, and depends a great deal on what you are talking about.

 

Language proficiency isn't just another "interest" akin to having a dog or cooking. It affects how you interact with the people in your environment.

 

I'm not going to get dragged into an endless debate about this, but my parting questions would concern your role as a father. What kind of example are you setting if you show little interest in learning how to communicate with the non-English speaking people in your environment? What racial and class messages are you sending to him when you signal that communication with non-English speaking people isn't of interest to you?  In today's multi-cultural, multi-racial, multi-lingual world I would argue you are putting him at a serious disadvantage. You indicated in an earlier post that spending time with your son is a higher priority than learning Thai. Have you ever considered learning Thai together with your son? Sounds like an opportunity to spend some "quality time" with him.

 

Also, assuming your wife is Thai, and your son is part-Thai and you plan to live in Thailand for some length of time, how do you communicate with non-English members of your wife's family and social circle, and your son's non-English speaking school and play mates, teachers, etc.?

Edited February 5, 2018 by Gecko123

[MaeJoMTB]

7 minutes ago, JLCrab said:

... and as a  lot of that 30% don't speak English, it all depends on which part of that 30% is of interest to you.

They all speak the language of luvvvvvvvvvv .........