American claims self-defense as patron says man murdered in Pattaya was "trouble-maker"

[Lacessit]

4 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

If anyone physically attacked me and I put him down, I would make sure he was unable to get back up for my own protection even if it meant kicking him in the face, my own protection must come first. So it could be that it was self defence, but definitely not if he was kicked multiple times while unconscious.

The best way to immobilize someone without putting their life in danger is to smash an ankle or knee. Doctors can only do so much with head trauma.

There are so many versions of what happened I am being reminded of Churchill's aphorism about the truth being attended by a body of lies.

[farcanell]

34 minutes ago, lanng khao said:

Spot on, and he could of been 5 seconds away from having a murdered Thai girl on his hands if the yank hasn't got involved, live by the sword, die by the sword.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

You don’t really believe that the Aussi would have killed the girl, do you?

 

[NoshowJones]

4 hours ago, bangkoken said:

Stomping a man's head who is down is NOT self defense .... it's murder.

Not necessary, you have to be sure he is not capable of getting up for your own protection, he

could pull a knife, or even a gun.

In saying this, I am talking about an unprovoked assault.

[sanemax]

3 minutes ago, tryasimight said:

There's always one....... Fair chance you would be in the morgue as well. 

I do think that you misunderstood .

I would not have physically got involved and the most that I would have done would have been to try to calm the situation down vocally

[lanng khao]

You don’t really believe that the Aussi would have killed the girl, do you?
 

No, it was probably a spot of foreplay ,or she asked him to guess her weight..

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[Donotdisturb]

3 hours ago, scottide said:

Him thug! Him use excessive force to "rescue" the Thai woman.  No CCTV, but previous reports state his thug friends filmed the incident.  Even if deleted the video can be recovered.

My post was pure sarcasm. Of course he's scum. But i know they types. They think they are protectors of the "weak"...

[farcanell]

13 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

If anyone physically attacked me and I put him down, I would make sure he was unable to get back up for my own protection even if it meant kicking him in the face, my own protection must come first. So it could be that it was self defence, but definitely not if he was kicked multiple times while unconscious.

IF, in self defense, you had put someone down, dear possum, with a group of friends at your back, do you really think that you would need to stomp on the guy’s head, to further protect yourself?

 

if so.... get new friends.

[HLover]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

I do think that you misunderstood .

I would not have physically got involved and the most that I would have done would have been to try to calm the situation down vocally

A shell of a hero is better than no hero.

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, HLover said:

A shell of a hero is better than no hero.

And if the American guy hadnt try to be a "hero" , there wouldnt be a dead Aussie guy and an American facing murder charges

[Mattd]

Thai Criminal Code regarding self defense http://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/criminal-code-criminal-liability-sections-66-72/

 

[HLover]

3 minutes ago, sanemax said:

And if the American guy hadnt try to be a "hero" , there wouldnt be a dead Aussie guy and an American facing murder charges

And this interesting thread...

While driving down Soi 6, the word 'Hero' doesn't come to mind. Perhaps, 'zeros' would be more appropriate.

[Old Croc]

If the bargirl allegedly being strangled had killed the Australian that would be self defense.

The large American dual killer brutally attacked and killed Robb, fled, then later surrendered with a made up story of self defense, no doubt backed up by his filthy mates.

Their version is completely different from that of the independent witness on Facebook. Surprise, surprise.

The Ruby Bar issued a statement that no other staff nor customers were injured in the incident. Presumably that includes the girl being strangled?

I wonder if the fine looking lady next to the killer at the police station is part of his alibi.

[NoshowJones]

4 minutes ago, farcanell said:

IF, in self defense, you had put someone down, dear possum, with a group of friends at your back, do you really think that you would need to stomp on the guy’s head, to further protect yourself?

 

if so.... get new friends.

i agree with you, but the reports say that these group of friends were taking photos, not behaving in any threatening manner, though I do stand to be corrected.

[lanng khao]

And if the American guy hadnt try to be a "hero" , there wouldnt be a dead Aussie guy and an American facing murder charges

And if the big bully Aussie hadn't lifted a girl off her feet by her throat, then he would still be alive to go home to his family.

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, HLover said:

A shell of a hero is better than no hero.

And what if the Aussie guy would have said *I've been sending her money for months and shes supposed to be in the village* or something like that ?

[PhonThong]

3 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

The American has zero defense.  He murdered.  It's not even 2nd degree.  It's 1st degree.   If he had a problem with something he witnessed in the bar, then there are ways to deal with such things:

 

confront the wrongdoer ...with words, or a hard shove or an arm-bent-behind-the-back, ....but stomping on the victims head multiple times is WAAAAAAAY beyond the pale.  

 

If found guilty: MAXIMUM PENALTY!  He'll meet some tougher guys during his decades in prison.

First degree means premeditated. I don't think he went into the bar with the intent to kill the guy. If he stomped the guys head without malice, it too would not be 1st degree. Maybe 2nd degree or manslaughter. 

 "I'm no lawyer, but I play one on tv"

[NoshowJones]

5 hours ago, Emster23 said:

One of those rare occasions where we might ask "Where were the club's Thai bouncers?"

Has anyone ever seen any bouncers in Soi 6? I never have, but I am not a regular there, walking down, ie Walking Street, it seems there are bouncers at every door.

[GOLDBUGGY]

51 minutes ago, bkkcanuck8 said:

I don't think that is quite correct.  There are many different tests and it varies by jurisdiction but IF the death was caused by multiple kicks to the head -- it would likely qualify for 1st degree (Thailand has different terms but it sort of follows the same line).  The specific intent can happen 1 hour before, 1 minute before or just before when swinging.  Many jurisdictions also include other tests such as depraved indifference to human life... and if the boots to the head are the correct story it would definitely qualify.  If you get into a fight and take one punch a person and they fall and are dead - that falls on one side.  If however you grab a bat and swing it at the person in a fight - it would fall on the other side.   

Several kicks to the head causing death would not qualify as 1st Degree Murder! To get 1st Degree Murder it must be "Premeditated". In other words it must be planned before the action is carried out. There are a few special cases however when this is not so. For example a death of a vicitm during rape is 1st Degree, even though it was not planned. Or death of a Bank Teller during a robbery or committing a crime with a weapon. And so on. 

 

For 2nd Degree Murder, the act wasn't premeditated but during this fight you had full inteneions of killing this person. Perhaps while the victim was laying on the ground out cold, you picked up a knife and stabbed him in the Heart. That would be 2nd Degree Murder. 

 

For 3rd Degree Murder, you are involved in a Bar Fight and your actions cause his death. A popular defense for this is of course "Self Defense". For 3rd Degree Murder they do not have to prove that you intended to kill him. It could have even been an accident, by hitting his head as he fell down after you punched him. However, if he came at you with a knife first, your actions may then be justified.  

 

All 3 Degrees of Murder carry a possible Life Sentence. However when Capital Punishment is the law, you can only be put to death for 1st Degree Murder.  For 2nd Degree Murder the sentence is longer depending on the circumstances, but generally 10 to 20 years. For 3rd Degree and depending on cicumstances again, generally runs 10 years or a little less.   

[falangjim]

I still don't buy the 'self-defense' statement.  He was not defending himself.  At the risk of sounding callous, his actions were overkill.  Jose is still a cretin and should rot.  Rarely does one kill another person with three to four punches.  I think he's lying, and should be charged with manslaughter, at the very least, murder 2 at the most. But this is Thailand and I doubt the 'law' makes such distinctions.  He'll probably be relaxing on the beach in Pattaya before month's end. 

[smedly]

4 hours ago, glasswort said:

You obviously have information apparently not available to anyone else.

guess - gut feel, call it what you like 

 

I don't have any more info than you although I do tend to believe the claimed "eyewitness" account posted very early in this forum and IMO that makes this American a very dangerous individual indeed and who very likely IMO has previous form in his home country 

[Different]

And tomorrow expect the news team will release CCTV footage, playing games with your heads.

[Rimmer]

A flame and replies have been removed

[Baerboxer]

5 minutes ago, GOLDBUGGY said:

Several kicks to the head causing death would not qualify as 1st Degree Murder! To get 1st Degree Murder it must be "Premeditated". In other words it must be planned before the action is carried out. There are a few special cases however when this is not so. For example a death of a vicitm during rape is 1st Degree, even though it was not planned. Or death of a Bank Teller during a robbery or committing a crime with a weapon. And so on. 

 

For 2nd Degree Murder, the act wasn't premeditated but during this fight you had full inteneions of killing this person. Perhaps while the victim was laying on the ground out cold, you picked up a knife and stabbed him in the Heart. That would be 2nd Degree Murder. 

 

For 3rd Degree Murder, you are involved in a Bar Fight and your actions cause his death. A popular defense for this is of course "Self Defense". For 3rd Degree Murder they do not have to prove that you intended to kill him. It could have even been an accident, by hitting his head as he fell down after you punched him. However, if he came at you with a knife first, your actions may then be justified.  

 

All 3 Degrees of Murder carry a possible Life Sentence. However when Capital Punishment is the law, you can only be put to death for 1st Degree Murder.  For 2nd Degree Murder the sentence is longer depending on the circumstances, but generally 10 to 20 years. For 3rd Degree and depending on cicumstances again, generally runs 10 years or a little less.   

 

Thank you for giving us your definitions of American degrees of murder.

 

Oh dear, this isn't America!

[NoshowJones]

4 hours ago, thesetat2013 said:

A friend of mine witnessed this incident and stated to me that this man's death was the result of a lack or medical support. It seems that instead of an ambulance arriving to provide oxygen and emergency treatment, that a motorcycle arrived in its place.  Albeit, this can not be proven as the cause of death, but it does make one wonder if this man's life might have been saved if an ambulance had arrived instead

Yes, you usually get about six ambulances racing to the scene, to get the victim to hospital for a pay out. I assume that this is not only at road accidents.

[diehard60]

yep, pataya is place to go

[farcanell]

13 minutes ago, lanng khao said:

No, it was probably a spot of foreplay ,or she asked him to guess her weight..

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Exactly... or a wildly inaccurate disciption of events, which emerged after hearing the Americans version, but isn’t backed up by the staff (no other injuries during incident), or by the girl who was supposedly assaulted.

 

but really... a slow strangulation murder in public.... well... that would be a first, wouldn’t it ( outside ritual killing/ sacrifice ceremonies etc, of course)

 

i know its all emotional... but staying somewhere near the borders of realism would be the best way forward.

 

now... an aggravated assault with overwhelming force and violence... not so unusual.... and why responsible governments are enacting tighter laws and higher penalties for the use of excessive or unexpected violence

 

and... as yet, what we do know is that the American is a convicted killer, but we know nothing about the Australian, beyond contradictory here-say.

 

and... I didn’t miss the sarcasm ?

[smedly]

5 hours ago, cornishcarlos said:

If the 2nd version of events had been reported first, everyone would be saying the Aussie got what he deserved.

But it seems the story that appears first is to be believed at all costs !! Never mind that the witness statements have not be confirmed or backed up.

Ah well, just hang him and save the cost to the Thai tax payers...

You are talking absolute nonsense "everyone would be saying" speak for yourself

 

The first version was an eyewitness account posted very early on on this forum and I have no reason to doubt it, you believe what you want and so will I and rest of the people posting on this forum

[speedtripler]

4 hours ago, Dukeleto said:

"But their report was at odds with other stories saying that the victim was floored with one punch. His head hit the ground killing him, they reported."

 

And yet the accused, according to the police, admitted to punching the victim three to four times! Clearly there are witnesses who themselves either were blind drunk or are completely bias in the accused favour which immediately makes me suspect the original scenario is closer to the truth than the single blow to the head and the "floor" actualy killed him version of events.

 

The sheer size of the guy indicates he could have stopped and restrained the victim without killing him. No mater how he justifies this to himself or anyone else he is guilty of taking another mans life. Something he appears to be comfortable with if the report of an earlier conviction prove correct.

How do you know the dead guy wasn't the same size or bigger? 

 

[cornishcarlos]

15 minutes ago, smedly said:

You are talking absolute nonsense "everyone would be saying" speak for yourself

 

The first version was an eyewitness account posted very early on on this forum and I have no reason to doubt it, you believe what you want and so will I and rest of the people posting on this forum

 

Of course you have no reason to doubt it, as it was a credible, verified eye witness account... It was wasn't it ? How about the other conflicting eye witness account !! Any less credible ? Nah, those that conflict with the original must be BS, right :)

 

Blinkered, media brain washed... 

[lanng khao]

It's a situation that has escalated out of control very quickly, what we do know is this man has a reputation for being a bully and abusing the girls, what would you do if somebody picked you're daughter or wife off her feet by the throat and started brutilizing her? I know what I'd do, I'd kick him from one end of soi yik yik to the other.

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