Tabien Baan (blue) regulations / laws

[jackdd]

In another thread we had a discussion about what happens when a Thai person moves to another address, which got a bit longer.

As probably most people here are aware, Thais are registered in a Tabien Baan, or Blue House registration book.

This Tabien Baan always belongs to a House (or Condo) and should theoretically have the House Owner or House Master and the people who live at this place registered in it.

But Thais usually don't update their address, and stay registered in the House Book where they are born, as long as their family stays there.

 

One point of the discussion was: Does a Thai have to update their address when they move? And do they have a right to be registered in for example the Blue Book of a Condo which they just rent?

Most people would say no, just because we all know they usually don't do it.

This topic is a bit difficult to discuss because the law exists only in Thai, because it's not really relevant for Foreigners (unless maybe they have permanent residency and thus can be registered in the Blue Tabien Baan)

The Name of this law is: พระราชบัญญัติ การทะเบียนราษฎร  พ.ศ. ๒๕๓๔

Here is a source: https://goo.gl/yMx6RH

 

The relevant section is:

Quote

มาตรา ๓๐  ให้เจ้าบ้านแจ้งการย้ายที่อยู่ต่อนายทะเบียนผู้รับแจ้ง ดังต่อไปนี้

(๑) เมื่อผู้อยู่ในบ้านย้ายที่อยู่ออกจากบ้าน ให้แจ้งการย้ายออกภายในสิบห้าวันนับแต่วันที่ผู้อยู่ในบ้านย้ายออก
(๒) เมื่อมีผู้ย้ายที่อยู่เข้าอยู่ในบ้าน ให้แจ้งการย้ายเข้าภายในสิบห้าวัน นับแต่วันที่ย้ายเข้าอยู่ในบ้าน

My personal translation of this part, it is possible that i made errors and anybody is free to correct me:

The House Owner / Master has to notify

1) when somebody moves out of the house, within 15 days

2) when somebody moves in the house, within 15 days

 

Related to the "moving out" part:

A bit further down in this section it says that you have to provide evidence that the person moved out (whatever that means) or if it's been more than 180 days ago and you don't know where the person moved the person can be removed just like that.

 

In a later Section they write about penalties

Quote

มาตรา ๔๗  ผู้ใด

(๑) ไม่มาตามที่นายทะเบียนเรียก ไม่ยอมชี้แจงข้อเท็จจริงหรือแสดงหลักฐาน หรือไม่ยอมให้นายทะเบียนเข้าไปสอบถามในบ้านตามมาตรา ๑๐
(๒)[๒๖] ไม่ปฏิบัติตามมาตรา ๑๘ มาตรา ๑๙ มาตรา ๑๙/๑ มาตรา ๒๑ มาตรา ๒๓ มาตรา ๓๐ มาตรา ๓๓ มาตรา ๓๔ มาตรา ๓๙ วรรคหนึ่งหรือวรรคสอง มาตรา ๔๑ หรือมาตรา ๔๒
(๓) ฝ่าฝืนมาตรา ๒๔ หรือ
(๔) ไม่ยอมให้นายทะเบียนเข้าไปในบ้านเพื่อสำรวจตรวจสอบทะเบียนราษฎร ไม่ยอมชี้แจงหรือตอบคำถาม หรือไม่ยอมลงลายมือชื่อตามมาตรา ๔๔
ต้องระวางโทษปรับไม่เกินหนึ่งพันบาท

Again my own (partial) translation:

If you don't act according to the laws in the different sections (also saying section 30, which is the one i quoted above) you can be fined up to 1000THB.

 

So in my opinion a Thai can insist to be registered in a Tabien Baan when they rent a House or Condo, because it's an obligation of the owner, and the owner could be fined if he doesn't do it.

 

Please include sources for your statements and don't just say "but i think it's like this". If you have personal experience with this topic, which was contradictory with what was written, you are of course welcome to write this as well.

Edited February 23, 2018 by jackdd

[Peterw42]

Not really understanding the point of your thread, It appears the law says people are supposed to change blue books and house masters are obligated to change them. But 99% of Thais dont bother. The tenant could probably push the issue and make the owner/house master register them, but again 99% of owners/tenants dont bother, a small percentage do bother. 

 

The same as back home many people dont change there license address or register to vote etc every time they move, even though the law says you are supposed to, they stay registered at mums house..

 

My wife owns a couple of rental properties and over the years only one tenant has requested to go in the blue book and my wife said no (mainly because she coudnt be bothered to drive 2 hours to BKK and go to the ampher), and he didnt push the issue.

 

Are you specifically asking if anyone has forced an owner to comply, and put them in a blue book ?

[Tanoshi]

Continuing from the other thread Jack;

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/1025755-visa-service/?page=4&tab=comments#comment-12739449

 

To understand how the Civil Registration works, you need to take a step back and understand some aspects of the Thai system as a whole.

Provinces are similar to autonomous regions. Each Province has it's own Administration, that must act within the laws set by Central Government, but has control of the procedures it sets in order to meet the law.

 

Each Province is responsible for it's own Government hospital service, security benefit payments, schools and any other public services they provide. They are responsible for the financial and administration running of these systems within their Province.

The financing comes from the taxpayers who's address is registered in that Province.

 

Following so far Jack?

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by Tanoshi

[jackdd]

32 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

Are you specifically asking if anyone has forced an owner to comply, and put them in a blue book ?

This would be an interesting question, yes

Another question would be if my translation / interpretation is correct. Law language is difficult, maybe i got something wrong, maybe "to notify" doesn't mean updating the Tabien Baan (i just assume this, it isn't mentioned like this in the law as far as i understand it)

 

@Tanoshi Yes, i get you, i think that's how it works in most countries, be it the states in the USA or Germany. It varies of course how tight or lose they are coupled.

[Tanoshi]

Ok, so the services provided within a Province are provide for the residents of that Province.

 

Now take your average Thai family living in rural areas, of which there are many in Thailand.

The menfolk often have to live where employment is available, mainly cities, which could be in another Province.

Thousands work in Bangkok but have homes elsewhere.

 

The set up of a Tabien Baan allows one page for the address.

There are then numerous pages for the personal details of the citizens registered within that book.

It allows for whole families to be in the same book......why?

Well only someone who purchases a house will be issued a Tabien Baan.

A Thai may own several properties, but they can only be registered in one, of their choice.

For a Thai who rents, he is already registered on a TB somewhere back in the village.

 

The men often leave wives and children behind in the village whilst their working away.

The taxes they pay are returned to the Province where they are registered to fund there children's schools and hospitals.

If the family moved to a rented home and not their own in a different Province they'd have to pay for the services of schools and hospitals within that Province.

 

The services are only free or subsidised if you use them in the Province your registered in a TB.

[Khun Jean]

One concern for when you rent out property is that who will be liable when there is something like a fire.

If the one living in the property is properly registered this would be easier to prove.

And yes, i know, it is never done.

 

 

[Mark1066]

Some people may be lax about complying with the law in their home countries but it's worth bearing in mind that, in the UK at least, foreigners are not required to tell the police where they are living every 90 days.

 

In short, my point is this: given the enthusiasm the Thai government shows for tracking the whereabouts of foreigners, it seems faintly ridiculous that the system for tracking the whereabouts of their own citizens is such a disorganised shambles.

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

If the family moved to a rented home and not their own in a different Province they'd have to pay for the services of schools and hospitals within that Province.

 

The services are only free or subsidised if you use them in the Province your registered in a TB.

Makes of course all sense what you say, i think that's how it works in most countries. But usually the place where you spend the most time should be your registered residence.

 

If a family rents another home and lives there, why should they not change their registration to get the services and schools for free?

If the 30THB hospital scheme is tied to the registered address it actually wonders me that not more Thais change their registered address. Maybe they also don't think about it, same as many foreigners here don't think about health insurance

[Tanoshi]

44 minutes ago, Mark1066 said:

In short, my point is this: given the enthusiasm the Thai government shows for tracking the whereabouts of foreigners, it seems faintly ridiculous that the system for tracking the whereabouts of their own citizens is such a disorganised shambles.

They don't track their own citizens, they just count them by Province.

[Mark1066]

18 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

They don't track their own citizens, they just count them by Province.

Yes, and that's my point.

[Tanoshi]

24 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Makes of course all sense what you say, i think that's how it works in most countries. But usually the place where you spend the most time should be your registered residence.

Don't forget the male member may work in a city during the week. He may stay in a shithole bedsit for a few days.

 

Take a wealthy Thai who owns 5 properties, he can only register himself at one address.

With any sense he'll register in the Province that perhaps offers better services for his family than another.

 

Same can be said for foreigners with regards to Immigration.

You can only be registered at one address.

Take a foreigner with who lives with his wife in Chiang Mai, but works and owns a Condo in Bangkok.

He must give consideration to where it's more convenient to apply for his extensions and make 90 day reports.

 

Foreigners owning Condos should have a Blue Tabien Baan that comes with the house, but they cannot be registered in it.

Foreigners with PR status can be registered in their wife's Blue Tabien.

[Tanoshi]

2 minutes ago, Mark1066 said:

Yes, and that's my point.

It's can cause tremendous problems for Thais working in Bangkok, but registered in different Provinces.

They have to return to their own Province to receive medical care on the 30 baht scheme.

The simple option would be to register on another citizens TB registered in Bangkok.

 

That comes with it's own complications as you experienced, which why I stated in the other topic that a Thai who owns but rents property is very reluctant to allow another Thai to use their address.

[jackdd]

41 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Don't forget the male member may work in a city during the week. He may stay in a shithole bedsit for a few days.

But from my impression he should / could be registered at this shithole if he stays there 5 (or in this kind of job more like 6-7 days) a week. If he stays every week at another place this does of course not work. Then he could also go to the hospital there.

 

41 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Same can be said for foreigners with regards to Immigration.

You can only be registered at one address.

Take a foreigner with who lives with his wife in Chiang Mai, but works and owns a Condo in Bangkok.

He must give consideration to where it's more convenient to apply for his extensions and make 90 day reports.

 

We foreigners are always registered at our current location. If we move we have to submit a TM28 (and maybe also a TM30 in a province like Chiang Mai where the immigration police makes it own laws).

So every time the foreigner goes to Chiang Mai he has to report, and also every time he goes to Bangkok he has to report. And he would do the 90 days report at the location where he resides at this day.

Of course this is just what the law says, nobody would seriously do this. Everybody would just stay registered at one address and do the 90 day reports there, but actually you are breaking the law if you do it this way.

 

[Tanoshi]

17 minutes ago, jackdd said:

But from my impression he should / could be registered at this shithole if he stays there 5 (or in this kind of job more like 6-7 days) a week. If he stays every week at another place this does of course not work. Then he could also go to the hospital there.

Where is he going to register, who's Tabien Baan?

[Khun Jean]

My father in law was recently in the hospital. He is registered in Ubon but lives in Bangkok almost 30 years now. No problem for him to be treated in the hospital at all. Also for voting there is a system in place that allows people to vote while living in Bangkok but are registered elsewhere.

 

[jackdd]

3 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

Where is he going to register, who's Tabien Baan?

The Tabien Baan of the place where he stays (as mentioned before, a Tabien Baan belongs to a house, and just indirectly to a person)

 

And now we can theoretically continue this, but of course we both know that to do this in real would be probably quite impossible:

 

You would of course ask: What if the place does not have a Tabien Baan?

Answer: The law says you need to have one, same limit as before, 15 days to apply for one after the house is finished, if not you can be fined.

 

Next question: What if it's just a slum hut.

Answer: Don't worry, Thailand does not enforce laws, but this does not mean that they don't exist.

Definition of house in the law: “บ้าน” หมายความว่า โรงเรือนหรือสิ่งปลูกสร้างสำหรับใช้เป็นที่อยู่อาศัย ซึ่งมีเจ้าบ้านครอบครอง และให้หมายความรวมถึงแพ หรือเรือซึ่งจอดเป็นประจำและใช้เป็นที่อยู่ประจำ หรือสถานที่ หรือยานพาหนะอื่นซึ่งใช้เป็นที่อยู่อาศัยประจำได้ด้วย

This includes basically everything, not just a house or condo, but also a boat, vehicles in general and even includes just "place". So you can get a Tabien Baan for nearly everything (of course in theory, no idea how the Amphoe will react if you apply for a house number and a Tabien Baan for a car or a tent, but by law it's possible)

[Tanoshi]

12 hours ago, Khun Jean said:

My father in law was recently in the hospital. He is registered in Ubon but lives in Bangkok almost 30 years now. No problem for him to be treated in the hospital at all. Also for voting there is a system in place that allows people to vote while living in Bangkok but are registered elsewhere.

 

Pensioners and children can be treated for free at any government hospital.

 

Government hospitals can also refer you to a Private hospital for treatment if they don't have the necessary equipment or specialists to deal with the illness and it still comes under the 30 baht scheme.

[Tanoshi]

12 hours ago, jackdd said:

The Tabien Baan of the place where he stays (as mentioned before, a Tabien Baan belongs to a house, and just indirectly to a person)

 

And now we can theoretically continue this, but of course we both know that to do this in real would be probably quite impossible:

 

You would of course ask: What if the place does not have a Tabien Baan?

Answer: The law says you need to have one, same limit as before, 15 days to apply for one after the house is finished, if not you can be fined.

 

Next question: What if it's just a slum hut.

Answer: Don't worry, Thailand does not enforce laws, but this does not mean that they don't exist.

Definition of house in the law: “บ้าน” หมายความว่า โรงเรือนหรือสิ่งปลูกสร้างสำหรับใช้เป็นที่อยู่อาศัย ซึ่งมีเจ้าบ้านครอบครอง และให้หมายความรวมถึงแพ หรือเรือซึ่งจอดเป็นประจำและใช้เป็นที่อยู่ประจำ หรือสถานที่ หรือยานพาหนะอื่นซึ่งใช้เป็นที่อยู่อาศัยประจำได้ด้วย

This includes basically everything, not just a house or condo, but also a boat, vehicles in general and even includes just "place". So you can get a Tabien Baan for nearly everything (of course in theory, no idea how the Amphoe will react if you apply for a house number and a Tabien Baan for a car or a tent, but by law it's possible)

 

There will always be a Tabien Baan for a dwelling place. The question is would the house holder of that book allow comparative strangers to be registered in it and the answer is usually 'No', for some obvious reasons.

 

The DOPA regulations you previously posted only outline the procedure for changing from one house book to another.

There is no enforcement for landlords to register tenants on their house book, or for the tenant to be forced to change house books.

It would be unworkable and impractical.

 

I'm sure there are many situation where it would be in the tenants interest to change his address to another Province, but without the permission and co-operation of the landlord/house holder it's impossible.

[jackdd]

26 minutes ago, Tanoshi said:

The DOPA regulations you previously posted only outline the procedure for changing from one house book to another.

There is no enforcement for landlords to register tenants on their house book, or for the tenant to be forced to change house books.

It would be unworkable and impractical.

 

I'm sure there are many situation where it would be in the tenants interest to change his address to another Province, but without the permission and co-operation of the landlord/house holder it's impossible.

 

What i quoted are laws, not just regulations.

A law that says that the House Owner has to notify the Amphoe when somebody moves in or out within 15 days, if he doesn't do it he can be fined.

Of course usually that is not enforced, as many laws in Thailand. But why do you think somebody that rents a place and wants to be registered could not use this law to force the House Owner to register him in the Tabien baan?

[Tanoshi]

54 minutes ago, jackdd said:

 

What i quoted are laws, not just regulations.

A law that says that the House Owner has to notify the Amphoe when somebody moves in or out within 15 days, if he doesn't do it he can be fined.

Of course usually that is not enforced, as many laws in Thailand. But why do you think somebody that rents a place and wants to be registered could not use this law to force the House Owner to register him in the Tabien baan?

It is not a law. It's a rule or directive made and maintained by local authority (DOPA) which is a regulation, which has the force of law since they are adopted under authority granted by statutes, and often include penalties for violations.

It is not a regulation which states you must notify the Amphoe if a someone rents your home.

That would be tracking a Thais movements. Unlike foreigners they are not under any Immigration control.

 

Adding or changing names in house books requires the permission of the house holder holding the book.

Both parties agreeable, they must follow the regulation/rules as stated on the DOPA site.

That's to ensure they are removed from one house book, before being placed in a new book and not counted twice in the population count.

 

A foreigner who wants to register his address with Thai authorities (not Immigration) and obtain a Yellow Tabien Baan, can only do so with the consent of the registered blue book house holder of that address. Forms of permission have to be signed by both parties at the Amphur.

 

If a Thai registered in Province A, but now living in Province D wanted to officially be registered in Province D, he would first of all have to find a Thai already holding a Blue TB in Province D willing to allow him/her to be registered within their house book.

The tenant would then have to return to Province A and visit the local Amphoe along with the blue book holder within which he is registered and both parties sign to have him removed. The blue house book will then be amended to reflect the change.

The Amphoe of Province A will give the tenant a form to submit to the Amphoe of Province D.

(This is where the DOPA regulation states 15 days to do so without fine)

At Amphoe D the tenant submits the form, the blue book holder must attend to sign a separate form giving permission for the tenant to be added to their book. Their book will then be amended.

 

The tenant then does a runner after 3 months owing rent!

Bailiffs, Police, speeding tickets all arrive at the address looking for the tenant over the next 12 months.

That's why your interpretation is misguided. No Thai can force another to be added to their registered address.

It is purely by mutual consent following the rules laid down by DOPA.

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Tanoshi

[jackdd]

I was looking around a bit and found this: http://www.bora.dopa.go.th/callcenter1548/index.php/menu-population/13-service-handbook/population/26-population-relocation

This is like a "what do you have to do and what documents do you need when you move" info page for Thais.

The first sentence: When somebody moves in at your house you have to notify (us) within 15 days, if not you can be fined up to 1000THB.

And there are 3 sections: Move in, move out and move address.

If i understood it correctly you can move from one Tabien Baan to another without going to both Amphoes. If you move for example from Chiang Mai to Bangkok you can do everything in Bangkok.

Edited February 26, 2018 by jackdd

[Tanoshi]

2 hours ago, jackdd said:

I was looking around a bit and found this: http://www.bora.dopa.go.th/callcenter1548/index.php/menu-population/13-service-handbook/population/26-population-relocation

This is like a "what do you have to do and what documents do you need when you move" info page for Thais.

The first sentence: When somebody moves in at your house you have to notify (us) within 15 days, if not you can be fined up to 1000THB.

And there are 3 sections: Move in, move out and move address.

If i understood it correctly you can move from one Tabien Baan to another without going to both Amphoes. If you move for example from Chiang Mai to Bangkok you can do everything in Bangkok.

That link is the same you gave before, only in English script.

Translate your old link, same script.

 

Your missing the essential 'To Move Address'. As in a new permanent address. Move from one book to another.

A Thai owns 3 properties, he can only be registered in one, but he may live in all three.

A Thai must have the consent of the 'house holder' to be registered in their book.

 

No you cannot do the change at one Amphur, unless your registering within the same sub district.

Just ask any Thai if you don't believe me about the above facts.

[jackdd]

1 hour ago, Tanoshi said:

That link is the same you gave before, only in English script.

Translate your old link, same script.

 

Your missing the essential 'To Move Address'. As in a new permanent address. Move from one book to another.

A Thai owns 3 properties, he can only be registered in one, but he may live in all three.

A Thai must have the consent of the 'house holder' to be registered in their book.

 

No you cannot do the change at one Amphur, unless your registering within the same sub district.

Just ask any Thai if you don't believe me about the above facts.

You mean the Thai law that i linked to? I didn't link to anything in english.

 

I was referring to this, which is written on the dopa website:

Quote

การแจ้งการย้ายที่อยู่ปลายทาง หมายความว่า การแจ้งการย้ายที่อยู่โดยผู้ขอแจ้งย้าย สามารถไปขอแจ้งย้ายออก และขอแจ้งย้ายเข้า     ต่อนายทะเบียนผู้รับแจ้งแห่งท้องที่ที่ไปอยู่ใหม่ โดยไม่ต้อง เดินทางกลับไปขอแจ้งย้ายออก ณ สำนักทะเบียนเดิมที่มีชื่ออยู่ในทะเบียน     บ้านจากทะเบียนบ้าน

My translation, if wrong correct me:

Moving address means: The person who moves can notify about the process of moving out and moving in in a Tabien baan at the new location, so he does not have to go back to the office of his old Tabien baan to notify them

Followed by a list of documents that are required for this.

 

Everybody who i asked is still in his / her "birth Tabien baan"

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by jackdd

[Tanoshi]

37 minutes ago, jackdd said:

You mean the Thai law that i linked to? I didn't link to anything in english.

In was in Thai but I used the 'translate this page' function from my apps.

 

46 minutes ago, jackdd said:

My translation, if wrong correct me:

Moving address means: The person who moves can notify about the process of moving out and moving in in a Tabien baan at the new location, so he does not have to go back to the office of his old Tabien baan to notify them

Followed by a list of documents that are required for this.

It's a very poor translation, but what it's meaning is;

If you follow the process to notify your change at Amphur X (who will give you a form for Amphur Z) then there will be no need to return to Amphur X.

 

This is the process IF a Thai wants to re-register in an alternative TB.

It is not compulsory. 

 

There have been topics relating to this problem on Thai Visa.

Not so long ago a member who's wife was pregnant moved from somewhere like Khon Kaen to somewhere like Nakhon Sawan only to find his wife would have to pay privately for birth at the government hospital in NS because his wife was registered on a family Tabien Baan in KK.

They would either have to return to KK for the birth to be covered under the 30 baht scheme, or find another Thai resident in NS willing to allow her to re-register on their TB in NS. She had no family or friends in NS, in fact she knew nobody there.

Even if they did find a Thai in NS that allowed his wife to use their address, they would still have to return to KK to be removed from the family Tabien Baan there and obtain the relevant form for the transfer.

 

If memory serves me correct, the hospital at KK took pity and gave her a referral to NS in order to give birth there under the 30 baht scheme.

 

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

Everybody who i asked is still in his / her "birth Tabien baan"

Ask which other family members are still in the book but live elsewhere.

If you lived in Bangkok you'd find thousands of Thais working there but registered in Tabien Baans throughout the rest of Thailand.

 

By the way Jack, below is the form you receive from your current Amphur confirming removal from one Tabien Baan, to give to the new Amphur where your re-registering at a new address in a new book.