Why Thai's fail at business, examples I've seen

[lkn]

On 3/1/2018 at 10:08 AM, Brunolem said:

If so, they grow their business.

If they are smart and making good money, they are not going to spend their life selling fried chicken on the road, under the burning sun or the drenching rain...

Trying to grow your business might be your downfall, definitely not always the smartest choice.

 

If you do the best grilled meat in the area and/or has a great location, how exactly do you expand?

 

You may get a second stall and hire staff to man this, but the location or the lack of passion from your hired staff may make this a flop, and now you just have expenses for staff and materials (ingredients). You may spend time trying to train your staff, but that takes you away from the first stall, which may hurt the quality of your product and/or service, so revenue can take a hit.

 

Net result is that your main business performs worse, and your additional business is just a liability.

[MaeJoMTB]

12 minutes ago, lkn said:

It’s like saying that a Swede that can already communicate with Danes and Norwegians can easily pick up Chinese…

They seem to find learning English easy too.

As an aside, I found learning to read and write Central Thai fairly easy.

Speaking it was a whole different matter as Thais are probably the most incompetent teachers in the world. And you need a willing (and competent) person to practice with.

Edited March 2, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[Brunolem]

8 hours ago, JAZZDOG said:

I have similar businesses on three other continents and my GF here is by far the best and brightest. 

Do you mean that your GF here is the best and brightest...of all your GF?

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, MaeJoMTB said:

They seem to find learning English easy too.

 

Do they now?

If so, why do they always rank last in competitions between students of the ASEAN?

[MaeJoMTB]

3 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Do they now?

If so, why do they always rank last in competitions between students of the ASEAN?

Swedes are competing in ASEAN?????

Edited March 2, 2018 by MaeJoMTB

[Brunolem]

1 hour ago, lkn said:

Trying to grow your business might be your downfall, definitely not always the smartest choice.

 

If you do the best grilled meat in the area and/or has a great location, how exactly do you

expand?

 

You may get a second stall and hire staff to man this, but the location or the lack of passion from your hired staff may make this a flop, and now you just have expenses for staff and materials (ingredients). You may spend time trying to train your staff, but that takes you away from the first stall, which may hurt the quality of your product and/or service, so revenue can take a hit.

 

 

In theory, that is true.

Yet, around here, expansion is most often done by involving family members.

One guy in my village has done pretty well...he started as a toy street vendor, then expanded and involved his children...he now has a much bigger business that includes this big inflated castle where children slide, a trampoline and quite a number of side activities, such as making bang fai (the family members who remain at home) that will be sold during the bang fai season...

[lkn]

1 minute ago, Brunolem said:

In theory, that is true.

Yet, around here, expansion is most often done by involving family members.

But eventually you run out of family members.

 

There is a world of difference between running one business with your partner and kids, and running multiple branches with hired staff.

[Brunolem]

11 minutes ago, lkn said:

But eventually you run out of family members.

If only!

[lkn]

1 hour ago, MaeJoMTB said:

They seem to find learning English easy too.

It’s easier for them to learn because the grammar is somewhat similar, and so are the sounds, but it’s not like a Swede that has not been exposed to any English just picks it up in 6 months. It is repeated exposure through television, movies, books, the internet, and of course 9 years of school, that is the reason why Swedes speak English. Speak with an older Swede, and their English will often be terrible.

 

1 hour ago, MaeJoMTB said:

As an aside, I found learning to read and write Central Thai fairly easy.

Speaking it was a whole different matter as Thais are probably the most incompetent teachers in the world. And you need a willing (and competent) person to practice with.

If you can read Thai, speaking is much easier than English because the Thai alphabet is better at describing the sounds, unlike English where you only have 5 vowels to describe more than a dozen different vowel sounds.

 

And if you were able to understand spoken Thai, you would probably realize that while your wife can communicate with people from the region, she is probably using many Lao/Isaan words when speaking Central Thai, mispronouncing ช and ร, only pronouncing the first consonant in a consonant pair like ไกล or กรีด, etc.

 

This is not to take away from your wife’s abilities, my point is simply that learning English is very difficult for Thai people, both because it is a very different language, and because they are normally not exposed to any English in their life. Being able to communicate with people from other regions does not make it any easier, which was the point I was making.

[jackdd]

20 hours ago, MaeJoMTB said:

My misses could already speak Village Lanna, Laos, Central Thai and Southern Thai, English is just another language to someone who already speaks many.

As somebody else explained already, english is quite different from the language you listed before. The languages that you listed are all "tai" languages, so quite close to each other and often mixed with each other. You say your wife speaks these languages, but can she really speak these languages exclusively without mixing them with Thai? (or speak Thai without mixing it with for example Laos in case she is born in Laos and that's her mother tongue)

I always think it's funny when Isaan people claim (they all do) "I can speak Lao", and then you ask them something that's not a total every day word like "how do you say gas station in Lao?" and they can't tell you. Of course they can understand most of the every day stuff that Lao people talk with each other (and they would understand gas station if somebody said it in Lao), but actively speaking it is a completely different level, especially to speak it without mixing it with Thai words.

Edited March 2, 2018 by jackdd

[Brunolem]

9 hours ago, simoh1490 said:

Pretty much all of what you've written here is designed to demonstrate how stupid the theoretically average Thai person is and does absolutely nothing to describe the positive side of Thai business, I guess you're either a racist, can't begin to understand the problem being discussed or both!

 

There are loads of successful businesses in Thailand and there's a large number of very wealthy business people here. There's also a huge number of very average family businesses that manage to eek out a good living in the face of much competition and without the support of government and social safety nets: there's no new business start up support, there's no unemployment support (to speak of), there's no training courses in how to do this and that. Instead what exists is a nation of people who take business ideas from concept to fruition through sheer hard work, determination and faith. Sure many of them fail, just like 90% of new business startups fail in the West in the first five years but many of them survive and grow, but they're not convenient to talk about in this Thai bashing thread! 

 

It constantly amazes me that people come to Thailand from the West with their own ideas about how everything should be and instantly spot the differences between where they came from and here claiming that Thai's would be so much better if only they would do things the way we do them back home. Perhaps posters would do better to try and understand what it is that makes things work here rather the things they think should be improved or changed to match what they know back home! 

 

Master Simoh...if I may...

 

In fact, I agree with most of what you write, but a few things may be added.

First, one has to keep in mind that there are two quite different populations in Thailand, the Thai and the Thai-Chinese who are essentially Chinese with Thai names.

Most, if not all of the significant successful business are in Chinese hands, a fact that is readily acknowledged by Thai intellectuals (quite a few articles regarding this issue published in newspapers over the years).

 

Yet, despite the merits of the local education system, these successful entrepreneurs chose to send their children study in anglo-saxon countries.

 

Your statements regarding the local achievements could be made for many countries...after all, Laos or Paraguay or Tunisia also have education systems which produce doctors, architects and all kinds of entrepreneurs.

 

The point is "how do they fare against international competition?".

Generally not to well it must be said.

 

While there are big successful local businesses, few if any manage to expand outside their country of origin.

And more often than not, they need to appeal to foreign, or foreign educated, specialists to fill up a number of positions.

In Thailand, for example, most if not all top management of five star hotels is European, including in hotels from local chains...most if not all doctors in top private hospitals have been educated abroad...most executive positions in foreign production units are held by foreigners even though it would be much cheaper to fill the positions with Thais.

 

Having said that, I agree that, considering the total lack of public support, the limited education and the difficult economic environment, Thai people are doing quite well, and are generally much better prepared to face the coming storms than Westerners.

 

Now, would you please take your medication before answering...

[simoh1490]

5 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

Master Simoh...if I may...

 

In fact, I agree with most of what you write, but a few things may be added.

First, one has to keep in mind that there are two quite different populations in Thailand, the Thai and the Thai-Chinese who are essentially Chinese with Thai names.

Most, if not all of the significant successful business are in Chinese hands, a fact that is readily acknowledged by Thai intellectuals (quite a few articles regarding this issue published in newspapers over the years).

 

Yet, despite the merits of the local education system, these successful entrepreneurs chose to send their children study in anglo-saxon countries.

 

Your statements regarding the local achievements could be made for many countries...after all, Laos or Paraguay or Tunisia also have education systems which produce doctors, architects and all kinds of entrepreneurs.

 

The point is "how do they fare against international competition?".

Generally not to well it must be said.

 

While there are big successful local businesses, few if any manage to expand outside their country of origin.

And more often than not, they need to appeal to foreign, or foreign educated, specialists to fill up a number of positions.

In Thailand, for example, most if not all top management of five star hotels is European, including in hotels from local chains...most if not all doctors in top private hospitals have been educated abroad...most executive positions in foreign production units are held by foreigners even though it would be much cheaper to fill the positions with Thais.

 

Having said that, I agree that, considering the total lack of public support, the limited education and the difficult economic environment, Thai people are doing quite well, and are generally much better prepared to face the coming storms than Westerners.

 

Now, would you please take your medication before answering...

Page 6 of the attached link shows the extent and growth of Thai outbound foreign investment which is increasing year on year, Thai companies are now active in the hotel industry in Europe, the home construction market in the UK, supermarkets in France, football and sports in the UK and a myriad of other industries. The fact that OFDI has doubled in five years and now dwarfs FDI is hugely telling. https://www.set.or.th/highlights/files/20170731_en_setresearch.pdf 

 

Thailands GDP is the worlds 20th largest which may not seem like anything significant except that it has quadrupled in size in 20 years: https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/gdp. Trying to compare the quality or quantity of Thai business against the West twenty years ago would have been a waste of time, today the picture is totally different, in truth the growth rate has been quite phenomenal. So you ask how does Thai business compare against international business, I say, increasing well far far better than Laos, Paraguay or Tunisia over the same period.

 

Ivy league universities will always be the go-to destination for the children of well-heeled families but increasingly China presents a better option, it's cheaper, closer, more culturally aligned and the quality of education is gaining recognition. We have several Chinese friends and their tales of the education system in China are impressive.

 

Your statement about doctors here having been trained abroad is incorrect. Many have attended courses overseas, some have done one year study courses there and others have undergone specific training in different medical disciplines. But the core degrees of most doctors here, along with their medical school training, is all mostly in Thailand and a quick scan of the CV's of the doctors list on the Bumrungrad website will confirm this to be true - it's become almost a badge of honor for doctors here to be able to include overseas training on their CV's.

 

 

[Brunolem]

24 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

 

 

Thailands GDP is the worlds 20th largest which may not seem like anything significant except that it has quadrupled in size in 20 years: https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/gdp. 

That would be 26th...unless there was a very recent major jump...

Anyway, GDP doesn't mean much these days...Iran and Nigeria rank close to Thailand and they are not exactly economic powerhouses...

Edited March 2, 2018 by Brunolem

[Chrisdoc]

So many cynics quoting their standard truisms. It goes without saying one must employee the best staff they can find, pay and treat them fairly. And yes my GF manages my business. She took a business that 18 months ago was wallowing, 50% occupancy and café pretty much in the red. Almost instantly, through hard work, smart work, she had numbers up 80% where they remain. That basically represents profit as most expenses are fixed costs which she brought down. I have similar businesses on three other continents and my GF here is by far the best and brightest. You are correct that many farang that have augered in did their recruiting and hiring after midnight fueled on leos. Fact is it's impossible to do business that way anywhere. Not all of us met our GFs in bars, just most TV commenters it seems. I will agree with the cynics that a beer bar is not a great business idea IMHO due to being an employee nightmare. 

I was mainly having a dig at the business model of bars and the common statement that you can't make money in business in Thailand. I am too old for loud music,I am not looking for a girl so I don't really want to buy drinks. I just want to go for a quiet drink and find that hard to find in the entertainment areas(live near Pattaya). My wife is financially independent and does not want to work in Thailand but we had a shop in Australia with mainly Thai staff. I had to teach her(with lots of protest)and the staff to say 3 thankyous and 2 pleases in each transaction. A wai at the end of a transaction is cute but not enough with westerners. You are lucky your GF has learnt such subtleties of customer service already.

Sent from my SM-G900I using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Brunolem]

32 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

 

 

Thailands GDP is the worlds 20th largest which may not seem like anything significant except that it has quadrupled in size in 20 years: https://tradingeconomics.com/thailand/gdp. Trying to compare the quality or quantity of Thai business against the West twenty years ago would have been a waste of time, today the picture is totally different, in truth the growth rate has been quite phenomenal. So you ask how does Thai business compare against international business, I say, increasing well far far better than Laos, Paraguay or Tunisia over the same period.

 

A much better, and fairer, indicator is the GDP per capita, and here things are quite different...even though Thailand does better than China...

Edited March 2, 2018 by Brunolem

[simoh1490]

10 minutes ago, Brunolem said:

That would be 26th...unless there was a very recent major jump...

Anyway, GDP doesn't mean much these days...Iran and Nigeria rank close to Thailand and they are not exactly economic powerhouses...

Yes possibly so, I thought I'd read something very recently that showed they were number 20 on somebody's list so I may look for it. The point remains however, an extremely  rapid rate of growth over the past twenty years.

[jackdd]

11 hours ago, champers said:

Interesting theory but without one iota of supporting evidence. It could just be the product of an over-imaginative mind and a deep dislike for Thais. 

Actually i have the same theory, and unless the poster read my post before posting this we have now two people already who concluded the same theory

Here the post from me in a different topic:

On 6.2.2018 at 2:00 PM, jackdd said:

Thai people have this crazy mindset: Let's say they have a condo for rent, are offering it, but nobody wants to rent it for a year or two already. Now every normal person would think about lowering the price to find a tenant. But Thai people think: I didn't get any money for a year already, so i have to increase the price to make up for the losses of the first year, and instead of lowering the price to finally find a tenant, they even increase it.

You will see many condos online that are empty since a few years already, but the owners are unwilling to lower the price. So you can't really say there is a "typical" price, because the average asking price you can find online is usually way too high.

You just offer it for a price that seems reasonable. If you get 5 serious inquiries on the first day it was obviously too low and you should increase it, if nobody contacts you for a while you are probably too high (or the demand for this type of condo is just low)

[JAZZDOG]

5 hours ago, Brunolem said:

Do you mean that your GF here is the best and brightest...of all your GF?

I guess you could say she has unique skills the others don't possess. 

[Brunolem]

33 minutes ago, jackdd said:

Actually i have the same theory, and unless the poster read my post before posting this we have now two people already who concluded the same theory

Here the post from me in a different topic:

That is true...especially in places like Pattaya, not so much upcountry.

There may be a few reasons for that.

 

First, the owners' minds are influenced by the local population's behavior in places like Pattaya, believing that eventually someone, notably a crazy farang, is going to fork out the requested amount.

Farangs are partly responsible for that, especially the Russians who paid whatever was asked when they arrived in big numbers in the mid-00s.

And there are still farangs who agree to pay 300 baht for a couple kilometers in a taxi meter in Pattaya, ten times the usual price elsewhere!

 

Another reason would be the ubiquitous fear of losing face, especially when the potential customer is a foreigner.

 

Finally, time doesn't mean the same for farangs and Thais...where farangs seem to be always on the run, Thais seem to be able to wait almost indefinitely...just watch them waiting for hours in whatever administration without ever looking at their watch...the owner who has an empty space for a year or two is probably not aware that such a time has elapsed...may pen rai...

[elgenon]

I don't understand why, in public places, there are adverts that don't have any Unkrit. I frequently take the BTS and the MRT and am a captive audience for the adverts. But, lucky for me, there is no English on the posters. These are big companies that don't feel it's necessary to add a few English words. How much more would it cost?

 

Sorry, off topic but I got that off my mind.

[blackcab]

11 hours ago, elgenon said:

How much more would it cost?

 

The sign tax would increase by almost 7 times.

 

For a small sign this is a negligible amount. For a large sign it's a definite consideration.

 

For the largest signs, it's a critical part of the design process.

[elgenon]

On 3/5/2018 at 10:29 PM, blackcab said:

 

The sign tax would increase by almost 7 times.

 

For a small sign this is a negligible amount. For a large sign it's a definite consideration.

 

For the largest signs, it's a critical part of the design process.

Holy Crapoly there is a sign ta? Who knew? 555 Do you know how much it is?

 

Thanks for the education.

[jackdd]

2 minutes ago, elgenon said:

Holy Crapoly there is a sign ta? Who knew? 555 Do you know how much it is?

 

Thanks for the education.

I remember reading about this on a Thread here on Thaivisa quite a while ago. If you want to know more details you might be able to find this thread with the search function or Google.

[simoh1490]

6 minutes ago, elgenon said:

Holy Crapoly there is a sign ta? Who knew? 555 Do you know how much it is?

 

Thanks for the education.

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Signboard-Tax-in-Thailand

[theguyfromanotherforum]

The business failed because you're a Cheap Charlie and didn't spend money at the shop.

 

Cheap Charlie farang make me sick.

[elgenon]

39 minutes ago, simoh1490 said:

https://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Tax/Signboard-Tax-in-Thailand

I am not used to centimeters but by my calculations a sign 1 meter x 1.5 meters in English and Thai would incur a tax of 6,000 Baht. Not much for a high end watch company or an airline. Or a major cosmetics company or a communications carrier. I have seen ads for an airline at a BTS station that were completely in Thai. Likewise a cosmetics company at an MRT station.

[blackcab]

12 minutes ago, elgenon said:

I am not used to centimeters but by my calculations a sign 1 meter x 1.5 meters in English and Thai would incur a tax of 6,000 Baht. Not much for a high end watch company or an airline. Or a major cosmetics company or a communications carrier. I have seen ads for an airline at a BTS station that were completely in Thai. Likewise a cosmetics company at an MRT station.

 

I make it 600 baht, or 400 baht per square meter for signs in English and Thai.

 

Now consider the tax difference for the billboards you see around Suvarnabhumi which are quite immense in size.

 

 

[jerry921]

An old classmate of mine, a Thai, who now has his own service business, was telling me about the sign tax when I visited him and he gave me a tour of his business. I think he brought the subject up, in fact. His business occupies a shop front and the two stories above that and he has a sign inside, showing through the glass window. He told me that doing it that way avoided the sign tax, whereas if the sign were outside he'd have to pay it. It's apparently a non-trivial tax or it wouldn't bother him enough to have mentioned it to me.

 

He did mention that the police collected it, so perhaps they collect more frequently than they're supposed to.

 

Are the rates being quoted annual?

[blackcab]

3 minutes ago, jerry921 said:

He did mention that the police collected it, so perhaps they collect more frequently than they're supposed to.

 

The tax is paid at the District Office and a receipt is given.

 

We do it every year.

[lkn]

1 hour ago, elgenon said:

[…] I have seen ads for an airline at a BTS station that were completely in Thai. Likewise a cosmetics company at an MRT station.

I can just imagine the board meeting.

 

Chairman: We want to build brand awareness among Thai women for our new makeup line.

 

Chairman: We can get our message out to at least 100,000 women daily by buying advertising space on the BTS.

 

Chairman: We have made this billboard, our message superimposed on a great looking model. Any input?

 

Board member: Shouldn’t we add English subtitles to the message?

 

Chairman: Why? That would ruin our clear succinct message, and we may even alienate some Thais.

 

Beard members: But I see at least a couple of females in the BTS that I do not think can read Thai.

 

Chairman: Yes, but we do not care about building brand awareness among foreigners who stay here for only a week, and certainly not when it means compromising on our aesthetics and paying higher sign tax on all of our 10,000 signs…

 

Another board member: I see a lot of Chinese women on the BTS who I don’t think can read English, shouldn’t we add Chinese subtitles as well?