Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[Grouse]

17 minutes ago, aright said:

Yes. We saw your pitiful list.

Podemos compadecerte mas no perdonarte.  

Sorry, that's above my pub level latin. Please translate

[aright]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry, that's above my pub level latin. Please translate

Try Spanish

[talahtnut]

23 minutes ago, aright said:

Yes. We saw your pitiful list.

Podemos compadecerte mas no perdonarte.  

Ole.

[CG1 Blue]

44 minutes ago, tebee said:

It's not that the EU don't want a solution - indeed they have prescribed a legal remedy to  condondrum in the negotiation documents we have already agreed to.

 

The problem was every British suggestion was either impractical  or illegal 

 

See  

 

The EU should just leave it to the UK and Ireland to resolve. Mind you, the current Taoiseach would probably be just as obstructive, judging by his attitude toward the UK.

[CG1 Blue]

46 minutes ago, Grouse said:

It would have been far worse without them. I once gave a full list of "What did the EU ever do for you". I'll post it if I can find it on the other mega thread

Please don't

[aright]

8 minutes ago, Grouse said:

And that meets your aspirations?

 

God help us!

No not my aspirations but it meets the needs of people who are unable to provide for their old age, unfortunately it also meets the needs of those who could have provided for their old age but didn't.

[Grouse]

38 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Well thats a good idea, lets stick another tier of government on top

of our tiers. Who do think is going to pay for that lot?

In the case of governments, less is more.

 

Get real. This obsession with salaries is a joke. What is the total as a percentage of GDP? Less than a peanut.

[StreetCowboy]

2 hours ago, malagateddy said:

Time for a "hard "Brexit imo

Sent from my SM-G7102 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

Let’s go the Full Monty, and start a war.  People will be poorer, but happier, united in a common purpose.  Spirit through adversity, strength through joy!

[StreetCowboy]

16 minutes ago, aright said:

Try Spanish

You are joking, aren’t you?

After Brexit, it will be no longer cheaper (or, probably, legally possible) to holiday in Spain and Blackpool will once again be the First Resort of Empire.

 

the only reason for speaking Spanish will be to converse with our partners in The Argentine, and the like

[StreetCowboy]

19 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The EU should just leave it to the UK and Ireland to resolve. Mind you, the current Taoiseach would probably be just as obstructive, judging by his attitude toward the UK.

He has no choice.  Ireland can no longer elect to be a smuggler’s paradise to the detriment of their partners in the EU than can non-EU countries like Norway or the Isle of Man

[CG1 Blue]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

50 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Well thats a good idea, lets stick another tier of government on top

of our tiers. Who do think is going to pay for that lot?

In the case of governments, less is more.

 

Get real. This obsession with salaries is a joke. What is the total as a percentage of GDP? Less than a peanut.

Not only salaries; there are plenty of other costs associated with the EU. Don't forget the monthly jaunt to Strasbourg, including packing up contents of all the lawmakers' offices in Brussels and trucking it 220 miles, and then returning to Brussels a few weeks later. Something like £150m per year cost?

 

Plus that's a huge convoy of lorries chucking pollution into the air on a 440 mile round trip.

 

Ridiculous.

[HAKAPALITA]

4 hours ago, talahtnut said:

 Dwile Flonking in May.

 De Wile Flonkers, is that not a German thing. 

[StreetCowboy]

1 minute ago, CG1 Blue said:

Not only salaries; there are plenty of other costs associated with the EU. Don't forget the monthly jaunt to Strasbourg, including packing up contents of all the lawmakers' offices in Brussels and trucking it 220 miles, and then returning to Brussels a few weeks later. Something like £150m per year cost?

 

Plus that's a huge convoy of lorries chucking pollution into the air on a 440 mile round trip.

 

Ridiculous.

I’d sooner scrap Formula 1.

 

Sometimes my wife brings more luggage than I think is strictly necessary, but I don’t think that is grounds for divorce, or even an admissable contribution

[talahtnut]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Get real. This obsession with salaries is a joke. What is the total as a percentage of GDP? Less than a peanut.

Its not the salaries, that is the tip of the iceberg.  The UK government

couldn't make a profit out of a jumble sale. Mismanagement and

waste are the hallmarks of the 30% of the population employed in

some form of government.

When a working man earns 1 GBp, he will have appox.10p to call

his own at the end of the week. 

The UK government has become an expensive monster.

Reality check.

[talahtnut]

22 minutes ago, StreetCowboy said:

Let’s go the Full Monty, and start a war.  People will be poorer, but happier, united in a common purpose.  Spirit through adversity, strength through joy!

After you Cecil.

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, aright said:

I agree under Commission rules  there is no need to get an endorsement because the EU is not democratic. Can you tell me what part I played in this process, because that's integral to the democratic process and my requirement for the society in which I live. You obviously are happy living in a non democratic state and that's fine but I am not and is one of my reasons for leaving.   I do complain about the loss of democracy the only lack of argument regarding that being yours. 

 

You vote for your local MP, a party with a relative majority wins and they get to choose their party leader who gets to be the Prime Minister of the UK and select their cabinet and write legislature, is it democratic so far?  Our PM and all the other EU member heads of states are the 28 seats of the European Council, it is they who set the general political direction of the EU.  You also vote for an MEP, they will be in a group, the winning group gets the European Commission presidency, the remaining 27 seats of the Commission are nominated by each member of the European Council.  The Commission is the cabinet, it is made up of one Commissioner for every member country, each member of the Council, the heads of state, proposing one each. Cameron who was our Council seat at the time nominated our Commission member, Julian King.  Normally the Council choose politicians from popular parties in their country, that is the expectation but they do not have to be a politician, Cameron chose a diplomat for the Brexit era Commission seat.  We are actually the only state who currently does not have a democratically elected Commissioner.  The Council used to do the role of the Commission until the Lisbon treaty, and there is a difference in terms of democracy between our PM being our Commissioner and our PM choosing our Commissioner, but nothing like the difference between having a system where a party with a relative majority get to call all the shots and a system where a winning group in a coalition only get to veto others nominations for their cabinet, and all legislature has to be made in conjunction with and ultimately pass parliament.  Its clear which is more democratic, the EU isn't perfect by any means, but it is better than the UK system.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Kieran00001

[StreetCowboy]

3 hours ago, talahtnut said:

 Dwile Flonking in May.

All Praise Michael Bentine’s Potty Time  and more relevantly Square World, appparently

[StreetCowboy]

12 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

Its not the salaries, that is the tip of the iceberg.  The UK government

couldn't make a profit out of a jumble sale. Mismanagement and

waste are the hallmarks of the 30% of the population employed in

some form of government.

When a working man earns 1 GBp, he will have appox.10p to call

his own at the end of the week. 

The UK government has become an expensive monster.

Reality check.

Thank goodness for the EU, eh?

After Brexit, we’ll be free to plumb the depths of incompetence, stupidity, corruption and depravity on our own.  We could be the next Zimbabwe!

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, aright said:

Try Spanish

I'm no polyglot; only quadrilingual I'm sorry to say ?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, aright said:

No not my aspirations but it meets the needs of people who are unable to provide for their old age, unfortunately it also meets the needs of those who could have provided for their old age but didn't.

I can feel the warmth of your generosity from here ?

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

Not only salaries; there are plenty of other costs associated with the EU. Don't forget the monthly jaunt to Strasbourg, including packing up contents of all the lawmakers' offices in Brussels and trucking it 220 miles, and then returning to Brussels a few weeks later. Something like £150m per year cost?

 

Plus that's a huge convoy of lorries chucking pollution into the air on a 440 mile round trip.

 

Ridiculous.

Absolutely ridiculous and it must stop immediately

 

However this obsession with salaries, however obscene, is a triviality. 

[aright]

 

11 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I'm no polyglot; only quadrilingual I'm sorry to say ?

That's a shame. I got a GCE in Trigonometry. If you have problems pm me I will sine you up for one of my courses. 

[aright]

18 minutes ago, Grouse said:

I can feel the warmth of your generosity from here ?

Help me! What was Jesus talking about when he said " By their fruits shall you know them?"

[aright]

2 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

You vote for your local MP, a party with a relative majority wins and they get to choose their party leader who gets to be the Prime Minister of the UK and select their cabinet and write legislature, is it democratic so far?  Our PM and all the other EU member heads of states are the 28 seats of the European Council, it is they who set the general political direction of the EU.  You also vote for an MEP, they will be in a group, the winning group gets the European Commission presidency, the remaining 27 seats of the Commission are nominated by each member of the European Council.  The Commission is the cabinet, it is made up of one Commissioner for every member country, each member of the Council, the heads of state, proposing one each. Cameron who was our Council seat at the time nominated our Commission member, Julian King.  Normally the Council choose politicians from popular parties in their country, that is the expectation but they do not have to be a politician, Cameron chose a diplomat for the Brexit era Commission seat.  We are actually the only state who currently does not have a democratically elected Commissioner.  The Council used to do the role of the Commission until the Lisbon treaty, and there is a difference in terms of democracy between our PM being our Commissioner and our PM choosing our Commissioner, but nothing like the difference between having a system where a party with a relative majority get to call all the shots and a system where a winning group in a coalition only get to veto others nominations for their cabinet, and all legislature has to be made in conjunction with and ultimately pass parliament.  Its clear which is more democratic, the EU isn't perfect by any means, but it is better than the UK system.

What a deluded diatribe on democracy.

The Commission is not the same as the Cabinet. The Commission is composed of a representative from each  of the 28 member states so the UK has I person representing British interests. The EU has 27 members (97%) representing European interests. Is that your definition of democracy? The Cabinet is composed of British nationals all representing British interests

The EU is a flawed undemocratic organisation. The, then Common Market, in 1975 lied to us when they said the association was all about trade. The EU wants to eliminate the identity of the 28 states and replace it with a European Identity. They want one country "A Federal Union" for which they already have a flag and an anthem. What next? An army?

The European Parliament has 750 MEP's elected to it of which 73 are Brits representing British interests which means 90% of the elected representatives represent non British interests. Democracy? The British Parliament has 650 elected representatives all representing British interests. 

  Its clear which is more democratic, the EU isn't perfect by any means, but it is better than the UK system. What a laugh. You need to look at voting returns in Germany, France, Italy et al before you make silly statements. How many extreme right wingers are there in the lower house? 

 

Edited April 20, 2018 by aright

[George FmplesdaCosteedback]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

And see how nasty we have become.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/theresa-may-ignored-home-office-warnings-migrant-policies-hostile-environment-windrush-immigrant-a8312996.html

 

It embarrasses me ?

You should not be embarrassed at all.

Have a look at the number of immigrants to the UK since the end of WWII.

The land mass of the UK is small, and the vast majority of that immigration has been successful up to a point.

It is the EU open boarders policy has destroyed the balance.

Many immigrants from the 50s-60s are not happy to see a mass influx of more muslims and now east Europeans jamming up the health service and housing etc etc.

 

Integration is the problem that persists.

Respect for the culture of the country you have moved to is the key, then the locals will accept you much more easily.

It was a Labour government that agreed to the short term deal before the ex-Warsaw Pact countries had the right to migrate to the UK, and the Windrush cards were destroyed.

 

 

[aright]

I think we can all choose our own adjective to describe the Windrush issue and I choose  shameful.

I don't think, as some have suggested, it was a Racist Policy to blame, more a completely thoughtless, insensitive administrative cock-up driven by an incompetent succession of Home Secretary's ending with Amber Rudd.

The UK are very welcoming to legal immigrants.

A Mori Poll last year showed 40% of British voters felt legal  immigration had a positive impact . This compared with 18% in Germany, 14% in France and 10% in Italy.

[StreetCowboy]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

I'm no polyglot; only quadrilingual I'm sorry to say ?

I'll not bore you with the full joke but the punchline is:

... and the other policeman replies to him 'I don't know why [we would learn another language].  That bloke spoke five, and it didn't do him any good".

[talahtnut]

7 hours ago, Grouse said:

I'm no polyglot; only quadrilingual I'm sorry to say ?

We know at least one of your languages is eloquent fluent Rubbish,

 

[Grouse]

32 minutes ago, talahtnut said:

We know at least one of your languages is eloquent fluent Rubbish,

 

 

[Kieran00001]

9 hours ago, aright said:

What a deluded diatribe on democracy.

The Commission is not the same as the Cabinet. The Commission is composed of a representative from each  of the 28 member states so the UK has I person representing British interests. The EU has 27 members (97%) representing European interests. Is that your definition of democracy? The Cabinet is composed of British nationals all representing British interests

The EU is a flawed undemocratic organisation. The, then Common Market, in 1975 lied to us when they said the association was all about trade. The EU wants to eliminate the identity of the 28 states and replace it with a European Identity. They want one country "A Federal Union" for which they already have a flag and an anthem. What next? An army?

The European Parliament has 750 MEP's elected to it of which 73 are Brits representing British interests which means 90% of the elected representatives represent non British interests. Democracy? The British Parliament has 650 elected representatives all representing British interests. 

  Its clear which is more democratic, the EU isn't perfect by any means, but it is better than the UK system. What a laugh. You need to look at voting returns in Germany, France, Italy et al before you make silly statements. How many extreme right wingers are there in the lower house? 

 

 

No, you just don't understand it at all.

 

The British Commission member, just like the 27 other members, does not represent British interests, they are bound by law to represent the interest of the EU, the parliament and the Council, both democratic houses, the parliament has 73 British MEP's, so you see unlike how you assumed, we actually have a 10% representation in all that the Commission propose and then we also have our 10% representation to vote on that proposal.  And I did explain to you about how groups work in the EU, you seem to have neglected to consider the importance of groups in the parliament, individual countries are never voting together, it is groups who vote together, they are cross country groups who share common views, so even a British MEP who is not connected to any other British MEP through a sub-party can still have a great deal of voting power through the group they joined.

 

But yes, it isn't like our cabinet, as unlike in the UK where a party win through having a relative majority and then get to propose and write all legislation, and so do not represent anyone who voted for anyone other than the winning party, in the EU the legislation all has to made in consultation with the parliament and the council, so even those who did not win still get to make recommendations for the Commission to propose legislature for, and also get to have their vote on all legislation that they produce.  There is no one but the mislead who claim that the EU is less democratic than the seriously flawed UK system, it is a far superior system, the most democratic in the world according to the UN, NATO and the WTO.

 

The Common Market did not lie about anything in 1975, it is all in the manifesto and was in the pamphlet sent to every household in the UK.  They did not claim that the association was all about trade, you made that up. This is what it stated:

 

The aims of the Common Market are:

To bring together the peoples of Europe.

To raise living standards and improve working conditions.

To promote growth and boost world trade.

To help the poorest regions of Europe and the rest of the world.

To help maintain peace and freedom.

 

Note the first aim. We voted into the EEC, the aim was to bring the people of Europe together, now you are bleating about the aim of the EU being to bring the people together and claiming it was a lie, what tosh.

 

But of course we only have our share of EU representation, the EU has other countries in it, it is a group, obviously no one is going to have a greater proportion of representation over their individual country or it actually wouldn't be democratic.  Did you actually just think that the EU would be more democratic if the UK had 100% of the representation on EU issues? 

 

And what have extreme right wingers in the lower house got to do with your notion of a loss of democracy?  Surely it is democratic if they are allowed in?

 

If you can actually produce something that is not democratic, or less than the UK, then please reply, if it is just more unsubstantiated assertions then please do not bother, that's something you can do down the pub, here you are going to have to back it up with hard fact, something your posts have so far been devoid of.