Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[oldwelshman]

Just now, StreetCowboy said:

But apart from that, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Built straight roads without potholes lol

[StreetCowboy]

34 minutes ago, oldwelshman said:

The British Government won't have any say in it, we are leaving the customs union end of, so it will inevitably cause issues with items crossing by sea. Last time I looked Africa and USA did not come via the channel tunnel or ferries :-) Fact is there is no gain for anyone, just have to make do and do best we can with what we have and what is agreed.

I don't know why people think we can just leave the EU and think we can still have all the benefits at no cost. Something has to give.

But we’ll make great deals - the best deals - with every other country in the world.  And think of the jobs for the Tory party faithful negating those deals on our behalf, and how lucrative that will be. Boris Johnston? Boris Bananas Bonanza, more like

[aright]

1 hour ago, oldwelshman said:

The British Government won't have any say in it, we are leaving the customs union end of, so it will inevitably cause issues with items crossing by sea. Last time I looked Africa and USA did not come via the channel tunnel or ferries :-) Fact is there is no gain for anyone, just have to make do and do best we can with what we have and what is agreed.

I don't know why people think we can just leave the EU and think we can still have all the benefits at no cost. Something has to give.

I am certainly not  looking for your so called benefits when we leave the EU. What inevitable issues do you see when we export cox's orange pippins and turbines to Europe which aren't a quid pro quo with importing tomatoes and Mercedes from Europe. It is in both our interests to trade or are you suggesting that Germany are going to make it difficult for us to import Mercedes  although we are the largest purchaser of  Mercs in Europe outside of Germany.

[AYJAYDEE]

3 minutes ago, aright said:

I am certainly not  looking for your so called benefits when we leave the EU. What inevitable issues do you see when we export cox's orange pippins and turbines to Europe which aren't a quid pro quo with importing tomatoes and Mercedes from Europe. It is in both our interests to trade or are you suggesting that Germany are going to make it difficult for us to import Mercedes  although we are the largest purchaser of  Mercs in Europe outside of Germany.

whats to stop britain from imposing tariffs?

 

[aright]

1 hour ago, oldwelshman said:

Where to start?

Fees? you think we will not still have to pay anything as a result of negotiating trade deals?....................................................................................................................................................................................

...........................................................................................................................................................

Yes there are many people on both sides that have strong reasons and beiefs for voting the way they did, unfortunately there were also many people who voted with no idea of issues either way.

The whole campaign was a shambles both sides.

Glad I left lol

"Establishing our own laws? We already did and no law was ever imposed on us without a unanimous vote from EU from all members including our own government. "

That's not the same as framing our own laws and prone to the patronising errors of the unaccountable elites. 

 

"There is not 1 law that was not passed by our government." 

If I could change that  sentence slightly...."There is not one law that was not rubber stamped by our government".

Can you name me a single EU policy which was ever an issue at our EU elections where one party promised to implement an EU policy and another promised not to?

 

getting rid of an undemocratic, unaccountable, wasteful, overpaid and vindictive Commission,

No comments on this? It was arguably the most important reason for leaving...certainly mine.

 

[Grouse]

With the latest Trump news, we should stay as close as possible to our EU friends.

[Ahab]

Stay as close to your EU friends as possible because the bureaucrats in Brussels have your best interests in mind. Trust them they work for the government.

 

[soalbundy]

The lords are really putting the boot in now, apart from a divided country and a split cabinet the lords have voted in favour of staying in the EU's single market, this is a cliffhanger that keeps on giving.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Stay as close to your EU friends as possible because the bureaucrats in Brussels have your best interests in mind. Trust them they work for the government.

 

I assume you have not seen the news today. Would you trust Trump?

[tebee]

I'm starting to think Brexit must be some sort of scam or an elaborate con-trick being pulled on the British public.

 

Why? Well any sort of meaningful Brexit means leaving the single market and customs union otherwise we have no more freedom than we have now. But leaving them means  customs checks on all goods leaving or entering the country(WTO rules). We are just over 10 months away from the date at which we leave. So why has there been no attempt to start building the infrastructure or recruit and train the staff that will be needed ?

 

Simmerly there has been no attempts to start recruiting staff for the new agencies that will be needed to replace the EU ones we are leaving. I can't imagine the country running without any oversight of  medicines and the airline industry for just 2two examples. Then there is the time to write new procedures and develop IT systems to support all these.

Meanwhile the cabinet fights over unworkable customs plans  that have already been rejected by the EU - it feels like we have entered a phoney war period. 

 

So is the government just totally incompetent or do they know something we don't? We are either going to have a brexit in name only or remain in the EU? Nothing makes sense at the moment.       

[sandyf]

14 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I am not trying to shoot the messenger rather than trying to get a balanced result. The Remainers quote all day from the Independent and the Guardian etc while the Brexit side quote from the Express, Mail etc.

 

The problem is that few people read, or even have the time to read the biased papers from each side, about the same story and that is closer to where the truth lies, somewhere in the middle.

 

TBH I am fed up with the whole damn Brexit even though That is what I voted for.

 

From what I can gather the EU, even though it wants to get rid of the UK, is trying to make it as hard as they can, possibly to scare off any other country who wants to leave.

 

Whether it will work or not I have no idea and I don't think anybody else does either.

 

IMHO ALL of the government MP's should be standing shoulder to shoulder and showing a united front. What many of them fail to remember is that while they are all members of the Conservative party, they were in fact elected by their constituents and should be taking notice of what they say as they can be voted out at the next election.

 

My problem as a voter is that there isn't another party who I would prefer in their place.

Despite what many seem to think that when a quote is published, as opposed to an opinion, the text must be fairly accurate or the reporter is open to legal proceedings. The practice on this forum is to try and make out the quote is from the reporter rather than the source and then try and claim bias as a deflection.

In this case the quote was

"Huge Japanese firms with big plants in the UK – such as Nissan and Toyota, who sell most of their British-made cars into the EU – are, he says, treading water, biding their time before deciding whether to relocate part or all of their businesses, so they can continue to be based inside the single market after March 2019. "

 

People can put their heads in the sand and claim there is no risk Japanese business in the UK if they so choose, but I would doubt that any work for a foreign investor. I would suspect that many of the motor manufacturer employees are quite worried, its not only robotics but also their own actions that have put jobs at risk.

 

As far as I remember it was the UK that took the vote, not the EU.

If people are disabled by the actions of someone else don't they expect compensation.

 

[sandyf]

11 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

They should be voting the way that their constituency voted and NOT the party manifesto. The party did NOT elect them, the people who voted did.

I would agree with that but it would be a bit meaningless unless they eliminate the party whip.

 

Had there been no party line, there is a good chance that Art 50 would not have seen the light of day and the money they spent on court cases and the brexit department could have gone straight to the NHS.

[RuamRudy]

29 minutes ago, tebee said:

I'm starting to think Brexit must be some sort of scam or an elaborate con-trick being pulled on the British public.

 

Why? Well any sort of meaningful Brexit means leaving the single market and customs union otherwise we have no more freedom than we have now. But leaving them means  customs checks on all goods leaving or entering the country(WTO rules). We are just over 10 months away from the date at which we leave. So why has there been no attempt to start building the infrastructure or recruit and train the staff that will be needed ?

 

Simmerly there has been no attempts to start recruiting staff for the new agencies that will be needed to replace the EU ones we are leaving. I can't imagine the country running without any oversight of  medicines and the airline industry for just 2two examples. Then there is the time to write new procedures and develop IT systems to support all these.

Meanwhile the cabinet fights over unworkable customs plans  that have already been rejected by the EU - it feels like we have entered a phoney war period. 

 

So is the government just totally incompetent or do they know something we don't? We are either going to have a brexit in name only or remain in the EU? Nothing makes sense at the moment.       

I read yesterday about England's first private police force going into action. I guess the government's plan will be to hand over the responsibility for manning the borders to their favourite stooge, donor and, indeed, brown envelope provider, G4, what with their decades of stunning success in smoothly managing a vast array of security and public safety roles across the UK and beyond. fleecing the taxpayer blind, getting away with corrupt and illegal practices to the highest level, and showing levels of incompetence so farcical that even your most useless Brexit minister would raise his eyebrows in wonder.

[billd766]

12 hours ago, nauseus said:

Both Labour and Con manifestos committed to Brexit!!!

 

It is a pity that so many MPs are not as committed to the manifesto.

[billd766]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

I would agree with that but it would be a bit meaningless unless they eliminate the party whip.

 

Had there been no party line, there is a good chance that Art 50 would not have seen the light of day and the money they spent on court cases and the brexit department could have gone straight to the NHS.

 

Sadly we will never know.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Despite what many seem to think that when a quote is published, as opposed to an opinion, the text must be fairly accurate or the reporter is open to legal proceedings. The practice on this forum is to try and make out the quote is from the reporter rather than the source and then try and claim bias as a deflection.

In this case the quote was

"Huge Japanese firms with big plants in the UK – such as Nissan and Toyota, who sell most of their British-made cars into the EU – are, he says, treading water, biding their time before deciding whether to relocate part or all of their businesses, so they can continue to be based inside the single market after March 2019. "

 

People can put their heads in the sand and claim there is no risk Japanese business in the UK if they so choose, but I would doubt that any work for a foreign investor. I would suspect that many of the motor manufacturer employees are quite worried, its not only robotics but also their own actions that have put jobs at risk.

 

As far as I remember it was the UK that took the vote, not the EU.

If people are disabled by the actions of someone else don't they expect compensation.

 

In my personal experience Japanese business people are extremely shrewd. They will negotiate to the last Yen but everything runs smoothly and efficiently. I would take the Japanese statement verbatim. If anything it will be understated to save the UK government's face

[Kieran00001]

10 hours ago, AYJAYDEE said:

whats to stop britain from imposing tariffs?

 

 

Nothing, but our £60 billion trade deficit with the EU will mean that any imposed tariffs will cost us more than they make us.

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

I would agree with that but it would be a bit meaningless unless they eliminate the party whip.

 

Had there been no party line, there is a good chance that Art 50 would not have seen the light of day and the money they spent on court cases and the brexit department could have gone straight to the NHS.

I have to disagree slightly with that.

 

IMHO, MPs should vote according to their own conscience and in the best interests of their constituents and the country.

 

Greek style direct democracy does not work. However, we do have the technical ability to vote directly on everything.

 

We DO NOT have the organisational efficiency or the mind set to hold referendums in the way the Swiss do.

[Kieran00001]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

I read yesterday about England's first private police force going into action. I guess the government's plan will be to hand over the responsibility for manning the borders to their favourite stooge, donor and, indeed, brown envelope provider, G4, what with their decades of stunning success in smoothly managing a vast array of security and public safety roles across the UK and beyond. fleecing the taxpayer blind, getting away with corrupt and illegal practices to the highest level, and showing levels of incompetence so farcical that even your most useless Brexit minister would raise his eyebrows in wonder.

 

Please tell me that the My Local Bobby scheme has nothing to do with G4!

[Grouse]

52 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Sadly we will never know.

Only because you ignore me ?

[simoh1490]

Flying back to the UK two days ago and seated next to a charming, older UK lady just returning from a holiday in Os, she remarked, "Brexit, it's almost become a religion people are so fanatical....do you remember the Jamestown business, very similar", all said with a straight face and perfectly serious. Arf arf.

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Please tell me that the My Local Bobby scheme has nothing to do with G4!

Sorry - just my inate cynicism which causes me to expect the worst when the Tories even open their mouth. That said, I think MLB is definitely the thin end of the wedge.

[beautifulthailand99]

Thank God for the Lord's - anyway this was always going to happen - no serious politician is going to damage the UK economy wilfully which a 'hard' Brexit would have done. May will be secretly relieved because in the end she will be able to say we tried our best but it just couldn't be done. And then it will be over to these internet keyboard warriors promising insurrection to show us their hand. Or could we get back to more pressing issues - funding the NHS, tackling the UK's huge debt , education , infrastructure , housing helping Britain compete in a global economy the sort of things that sustain us all. 

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Thank God for the Lord's - anyway this was always going to happen - no serious politician is going to damage the UK economy wilfully which a 'hard' Brexit would have done. May will be secretly relieved because in the end she will be able to say we tried our best but it just couldn't be done. And then it will be over to these internet keyboard warriors promising insurrection to show us their hand. Or could we get back to more pressing issues - funding the NHS, tackling the UK's huge debt , education , infrastructure , housing helping Britain compete in a global economy the sort of things that sustain us all. 

No, you can thank Blair and Cameron for this willfully-installed house of several hundreds of grovelling political zombies. There are very few serious politicians left in the UK, if you were to apply that description truthfully. The House of Lords today is not fit for purpose except in a puppet show.

 

[CG1 Blue]

28 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

Thank God for the Lord's - anyway this was always going to happen - no serious politician is going to damage the UK economy wilfully which a 'hard' Brexit would have done. May will be secretly relieved because in the end she will be able to say we tried our best but it just couldn't be done. And then it will be over to these internet keyboard warriors promising insurrection to show us their hand. Or could we get back to more pressing issues - funding the NHS, tackling the UK's huge debt , education , infrastructure , housing helping Britain compete in a global economy the sort of things that sustain us all. 

The HOL is there to scrutinize bills, and can push for amendments.   But ultimately the HOC can pass bills without HOL consent if necessary.

 

In this instance the HOL are overstepping the mark. It is stuffed full of mega rich globalists and landed gentry , so it's not surprising. Things have worked out pretty well for them, so why would they want a change?

 

One day the HOL will hopefully be replaced by an elected senate.

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The HOL is there to scrutinize bills, and can push for amendments.   But ultimately the HOC can pass bills without HOL consent if necessary.

......

 

But in this case they can't use the parliament act to overrule the lords before Brexit day, as we have a two year session of parliament to cope with Brexit. 

[CG1 Blue]

13 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

But in this case they can't use the parliament act to overrule the lords before Brexit day, as we have a two year session of parliament to cope with Brexit. 

I believe you're right, but my comment was more to emphasize the extent of the lords' power. They won't continue to push things back much longer.

[Orac]

HoL have done their job which was to rightly ensure that parliamentary sovereignty was protected where clauses had been written to remove it and effectively give the cabinet, made up from party that only has a minority in parliament, the power to enact new laws.

History gives a very good example of where this can go drastically wrong and I would also ask ppl to consider the simple question of whether they would be happy to grant the same level of power to Jeremy Corbyn which, given TMs dreadful performance so far can not be totally discounted.


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[sandyf]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

I have to disagree slightly with that.

 

IMHO, MPs should vote according to their own conscience and in the best interests of their constituents and the country.

 

Effectively what I meant. I have said before it is about time the MP's earned their keep. At the moment all the taxpayer gets is a bunch of monkeys being yanked around by the party leader, and certainly not on peanuts.

[Orac]

The HOL is there to scrutinize bills, and can push for amendments.   But ultimately the HOC can pass bills without HOL consent if necessary.
 
In this instance the HOL are overstepping the mark. It is stuffed full of mega rich globalists and landed gentry , so it's not surprising. Things have worked out pretty well for them, so why would they want a change?
 
One day the HOL will hopefully be replaced by an elected senate.

It could have happened a few years ago but several MPs voted against the govt to block it - interesting which ones they were...

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/evening-standard-comment-brexiteers-change-their-tune-on-lords-power-a3828121.html


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