Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[CG1 Blue]

2 hours ago, tebee said:

As it happens, I was qualified to vote, but they messed up my registration so I couldn't and neither did I get the leaflet.

 

But whatever it says   it can not, under the British constitution , bind MPs to do anything.

Didn't that other fierce remainer Kieran0001 also say 'they' messed up his registration so he couldn't vote? 

You lot often say Leavers didn't know what they were voting for, but it seems Remainers even struggled with the concept of voting 

[tebee]

21 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

I don't think this is a good analogy.  Europeans fled to America to build a new nation.  Not really the same is it.

Er no, they fled to America to steal someone else's nation.

 

Edited May 16, 2018 by tebee

[soalbundy]

13 minutes ago, aright said:

You make a good point. Up to now Brussels have felt the populist threat is confined to the peripheries of political Europe. Hungary and Poland have shown two fingers to Brussels and Germany regarding immigration and rule of law issues.

Italy is the third largest economy in the EU and as Sergio Mattarella said recently if it is run by a eurosceptic coalition(Remainers love coalitions) the "Edifice of Europe is shaking" 

Like the UK, May is threatening a reunification of Ireland and Sturgeons brexit block has given the Scottish independence crusade new hope, who knows what could happen with Wales and Cornwall. A detailed white paper regarding the brexit goals is to be published but the ministers don't know what's in it. The German magazine 'Der Spiegel' doesn't seem bothered by either Italy or Austria.

[aright]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

Er no, they fled to America to steal someone else's nation.

 

My first wife divorced me when she found out I was having an affair with a red indian.

My marriage was going through a bad apache at the time. 

[aright]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Like the UK, May is threatening a reunification of Ireland and Sturgeons brexit block has given the Scottish independence crusade new hope, who knows what could happen with Wales and Cornwall. A detailed white paper regarding the brexit goals is to be published but the ministers don't know what's in it. The German magazine 'Der Spiegel' doesn't seem bothered by either Italy or Austria.

Sorry I'm lost. I understand the last sentence but what has the rest got to do with Italy.

[tebee]

Question for leavers - given that the NI border problem is probably insolvable if we Brexit - would you favour the reunification of Ireland if it would facilitate   Brexit?

[soalbundy]

15 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Well the politicians in Italy that are Eurosceptic are all the politicians in the Northern League and the 5 Star Movement parties, and these are the 2 parties that are about to form a coalition government, so careful where you place your bets.

 

I agree that Austria are less likely, although their hardening anti-immigration policy is already clashing with Brussels. As for the V4, they are steadfastly refusing immigrant quotas and their governments have been elected on such campaigns. They can't be forced to accept their quotas, so does the EU allow 4 or 5 members to reject quotas and expect the rest of the Union to happily soak up the surplus and overflow ……… hmmmmm, you tell me

 

P.S. I assume you meant that their problems would be compounded by NOT having the Euro as a currency 

No, Italy would have enormous problems, debt in Euro and then repaying with a devalued Lira, Austria with the Schilling would possibly be better off in that respect but they too like the UK would have to pay a price for leaving, in Euro, how far the Schilling falls would depend on how much German Industry leaves. While I was living in Germany, Austria never really felt foreign, it was as if it was an extension of Germany, before the Euro they would accept Marks without batting an eyelid and a lot of places in Bavaria at least would take Schillings.

[soalbundy]

10 minutes ago, aright said:

Sorry I'm lost. I understand the last sentence but what has the rest got to do with Italy.

you mentioned the edifice of Europe is shaking, my reply intimated that perhaps the edifice of the UK is shaking more, but you realized that, your reply was rhetorical.

[soalbundy]

17 minutes ago, aright said:

My first wife divorced me when she found out I was having an affair with a red indian.

My marriage was going through a bad apache at the time. 

being a bit cherokee at them were you

[CG1 Blue]

23 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

May is threatening a reunification of Ireland

Really?  I'd like to see some evidence of this.

[soalbundy]

Just now, CG1 Blue said:

Really?  I'd like to see some evidence of this.

Must be true, it's in the Daily Excess, ''She's not bluffing TM's ally warns'' 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

14 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

No, Italy would have enormous problems, debt in Euro and then repaying with a devalued Lira, Austria with the Schilling would possibly be better off in that respect but they too like the UK would have to pay a price for leaving, in Euro, how far the Schilling falls would depend on how much German Industry leaves. While I was living in Germany, Austria never really felt foreign, it was as if it was an extension of Germany, before the Euro they would accept Marks without batting an eyelid and a lot of places in Bavaria at least would take Schillings.

ANY country that leaves the EU will have initial problems, and the EU will do their upmost to make it as painful as possible, as we can witness from how they are treating the UK negotiations.  This however, does not mean that countries will not leave. I can easily visualise Italy leaving under a new Eurosceptic coalition government, but we shall have to wait and see.

 

You do not, however, offer an opinion on what can be done about the 4 Visegrad members, who are refusing all requests from Brussels regarding immigration quotas, and are prepared to leave the Union if necessary.

[CG1 Blue]

5 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

9 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Really?  I'd like to see some evidence of this.

Must be true, it's in the Daily Excess, ''She's not bluffing TM's ally warns'' 

Ok, so in other words what you said is not true then

[tebee]

12 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

Really?  I'd like to see some evidence of this.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/959884/theresa-may-jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-ireland-irish-border

 

[soalbundy]

Just now, Eloquent pilgrim said:

ANY country that leaves the EU will have initial problems, and the EU will do their upmost to make it as painful as possible, as we can witness from how they are treating the UK negotiations.  This however, does not mean that countries will not leave. I can easily visualise Italy leaving under a new Eurosceptic coalition government, but we shall have to wait and see.

 

You do not, however, offer an opinion on what can be done about the 4 Visegrad members, who are refusing all requests from Brussels regarding immigration quotas, and are prepared to leave the Union if necessary.

I'm not a member of the inner circle, nor am I in Italy but it was interesting that Ambrose Prichard of the Telegraph wrote about how amazingly quiet and calm the markets are concerning Italy, rather like the German press almost ignoring it. 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 minute ago, soalbundy said:

I'm not a member of the inner circle, nor am I in Italy but it was interesting that Ambrose Prichard of the Telegraph wrote about how amazingly quiet and calm the markets are concerning Italy, rather like the German press almost ignoring it. 

Nothing to say about the Visegrad group then  ...... maybe Ambrose Prichard has something to say about them ??

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Nothing to say about the Visegrad group then  ...... maybe Ambrose Prichard has something to say about them ??

why speculate, it's my astral wanderings against your crystal ball, the markets are a good indicator of how serious a matter is.

[CG1 Blue]

12 minutes ago, tebee said:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/959884/theresa-may-jacob-rees-mogg-brexit-ireland-irish-border

 

No, I asked for evidence.  As a reminder, soalbundy said: "May is threatening a reunification of Ireland"

Nothing in your link evidences that.

The article is simply gossip or hearsay. 

Plus it says she warned that Ireland might vote for reunification. That is totally different from threatening reunification.

 

This is just typical project fear material

[tebee]

I'd put money on Brexiters starting to offer Irish reunification as a solution very soon though!

[The Renegade]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

why speculate, it's my astral wanderings against your crystal ball, the markets are a good indicator of how serious a matter is.

That is why it has already started

Quote

Italian bonds slumped as populist parties struggling to form a government discussed a potential government debt write-down worth billions of euros.

 

This is all fairly disruptive stuff for Italian bonds,” said Jason Simpson, a strategist at Societe Generale SA. “The markets had been assuming that they would tone down some of their more radical views.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-16/italy-bonds-roiled-as-populists-debate-300-billion-write-down

 

It is affecting the Italian markets already. It will probably not hit the main markets until or if they actually form a Government.

 

Also available on the Financial Times but behind a paywall.

[aright]

7 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I'm not a member of the inner circle, nor am I in Italy but it was interesting that Ambrose Prichard of the Telegraph wrote about how amazingly quiet and calm the markets are concerning Italy, rather like the German press almost ignoring it. 

The German press don't speak for me or the EU, well maybe the EU.

Most of the European press were mute two weeks after electoral gains by Golden Dawn, Dutch Freedom Party, Freedom Party, Finns Party, New Right Party, AfD, Sweden Democrats, Vlaams Belang. When you have to write them down there's a hell of a lot of them. Luckily we don't have any extreme right wing MP's. 

In the case of the Italians I suspect the press will fill their boots after inauguration and the publication of a manifesto.

 

[Eloquent pilgrim]

47 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

why speculate, it's my astral wanderings against your crystal ball, the markets are a good indicator of how serious a matter is.

Fair enough, but very disappointing considering how much you speculate about everything else. I know that Hungary, Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic have got Brussels completely stumped, but I didn't for a moment think they could have curbed your speculation ….. but, hey, your call

[CG1 Blue]

52 minutes ago, tebee said:

I'd put money on Brexiters starting to offer Irish reunification as a solution very soon though!

Unlike those despicable bureaucrats in Brussels, I prefer not to use something as sensitive as the Irish border as a political football.

[soalbundy]

11 minutes ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

Fair enough, but very disappointing considering how much you speculate about everything else. I know that Hungary, Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic have got Brussels completely stumped, but I didn't for a moment think they could have curbed your speculation ….. but, hey, your call

everything here is speculation, the UK will collapse if they sign article 50, didn't happen, at least three or four times a year either the Euro or the EU has been doomsayed, hasn't happened, Trump will be impeached, hasn't happened. Soothsayers are in demand but it isn't a profession, yet. I just join in the dance, I, like you, am biased in one direction, what will really happen and what the consequences will be nobody KNOWS but we can have a giggle guessing. 

[soalbundy]

1 hour ago, The Renegade said:

That is why it has already started

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-16/italy-bonds-roiled-as-populists-debate-300-billion-write-down

 

It is affecting the Italian markets already. It will probably not hit the main markets until or if they actually form a Government.

 

Also available on the Financial Times but behind a paywall.

Yes, I did read about a possible E 250 billion write off in Der Spiegel a few days ago but it wasn't main news. Manifesto's are written on paper and then one looks at the financials to see what the consequences will be. What really happens is what actually happens, when politics fight markets you get Venezuela.

I've just this minuet read in Der Spiegel that the coalition contract is going to be reworked, that some of it is so hair raisingly stupid that it's a wonder it was ever written down, and NO, they won't give up the Euro.

Edited May 16, 2018 by soalbundy

[The Renegade]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Yes, I did read about a possible E 250 billion write off in Der Spiegel a few days ago but it wasn't main news. Manifesto's are written on paper and then one looks at the financials to see what the consequences will be. What really happens is what actually happens, when politics fight markets you get Venezuela.

If you read into what this potential coalition are proposing, it puts them on a head on collision with the ECB and the E. Commission.

 

3 main Policies. 15% flat tax rate. decrease Pension age and a universal wage for all. These are being estimated by economists to cost in the region of €100billion a year.

 

I think they have sat back and watched the fiasco over Brexit, and it is a fiasco, from both sides, and learned a valuable lesson.

 

This is what we want to do people and the ECB & EU will not let us. Time for a Referendum.

 

This is only my opinion, but 2 parties who were previously very Anti EU do not become Pro EU overnight.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, The Renegade said:

If you read into what this potential coalition are proposing, it puts them on a head on collision with the ECB and the E. Commission.

 

3 main Policies. 15% flat tax rate. decrease Pension age and a universal wage for all. These are being estimated by economists to cost in the region of €100billion a year.

 

I think they have sat back and watched the fiasco over Brexit, and it is a fiasco, from both sides, and learned a valuable lesson.

 

This is what we want to do people and the ECB & EU will not let us. Time for a Referendum.

 

This is only my opinion, but 2 parties who were previously very Anti EU do not become Pro EU overnight.

No, of course they don't but anti EU or not they are not stupid, they have let the markets look at the contract, have noticed the reaction and are rewriting it assuring the markets above all that leaving the Euro was never seriously discussed ( of course it was but hey, we can learn )

[The Renegade]

12 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

No, of course they don't but anti EU or not they are not stupid, they have let the markets look at the contract, have noticed the reaction and are rewriting it assuring the markets above all that leaving the Euro was never seriously discussed ( of course it was but hey, we can learn )

Fresh from the BBC

 

Quote

Five Star and The League once sought to leave the EU and return to Italy's old currency, the lira. Now they say they will try and reform the EU from within.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44136218?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.com/news/topics/crr7mlg0d2wt/italy&link_location=live-reporting-story

 

We all know how trying to reform the EU from within is going to work out.

 

Quote

"I don't see any signs that member states would like to change the rules at least any time soon or give exemptions to any member state," said Commission Vice-President Jyrki Katainen on Tuesday.

 

[soalbundy]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Fresh from the BBC

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44136218?intlink_from_url=http://www.bbc.com/news/topics/crr7mlg0d2wt/italy&link_location=live-reporting-story

 

We all know how trying to reform the EU from within is going to work out.

 

 

'Try to reform from within' it's a face saver, Italy has one of the highest national debts in the world, 2,263 billion Euro and they are going to leave and pay it back with toilette paper? The EU can be reformed from within but it needs consensus from more than one state and patience but instead of getting together and agreeing on two or three principals each state grinds its own corn, again it's me,me,me, it's got to be give and take, Britain had allies in Holland, Poland, Finland and even Germany regretted the loss of the UK because they both stood for austerity. We will see what happens, as I have said before in a different topic, we are merely the space in which things happen, there is no doer.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Italy has one of the highest national debts in the world, 2,263 billion Euro and they are going to leave and pay it back with toilette paper?

Is that an admission, that for many and varied reasons, being a member of the EU and the € is not really working out for them ?