Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

I'll agree with your first point - with a few exceptions E.G. some modern high-performance adhesives have a shelf life of a couple of days

 

 

But...

 

I've seen a figure somewhere that JIT can save around 20% of manufacturing costs.  Would you , as a big transnational company, locate you manufacturing plant in a country where you can use JIT and save that 20% or locate it in one that you can't? In the WTO scenario UK will have an additional disadvantage that cars and car parts will suffer a 10% ish customs tariff everytime they cross the EU/UK border

 

Existing plants aren't safe either. One of the big savings from JIT is that you don't need stockage areas in your factory, meaning it can be physically smaller, and the distances shorter so part built cars get from one part of it to another quickly. But this means that you can't convert a factory from JIT to Non JIT easily. It might be cheaper to just build a new factory somewhere else.     

According to the Economist, a US study found that implementing JIT led to an average 70% reduction in inventory. 50% reduction in labour costs and an 80% reduction in space requirements.

 

 

 

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, tebee said:

meaning it can be physically smaller, and the distances shorter so part built cars get from one part of it to another quickly.

Really ?

 

This will make interesting reading for you. One of the Guardian's Brexit scare stories.

 

Quote

A Mini part's incredible journey shows how Brexit will hit the UK car industry

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

 

Then read the comments about the supply chain's contribution to Climate Change.

 

 

[The Renegade]

Double post

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by The Renegade

[tebee]

5 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Really ?

 

This will make interesting reading for you. One of the Guardian's Brexit scare stories.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

 

Then read the comments about the supply chain's contribution to Climate Change.

 

 

I'm talking about it's internal journey as it's assembled in the factory . Smaller factory = less distance to travel, so less time wasted moving between production stages. Parts too are nearer to the place they will be used .

[Grouse]

43 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Great reply.

 

JIT is not an essential requirement for manufacturing. It is a nice to have and Car manufacturing will not be closed down because of JIT.

 

Now give us all your worldly wisdom and actually refute what I said.

 

No doubt I will have to wait as long as your non forthcoming Irish History lesson.

 

 

 

 

Car manufacturing is a highly competitive international business as is electronics for example. The difference being the shipping cost contribution to total costs. 

 

The UK was successful in winning direct foreign investment for car manufacturing in the face a severe competition from elsewhere in Europe. Multiple issues contributed to that success. Being part of the EU was one, JIT was another even allowing for the fact that the UK is an island. So was relatively low wages, reasonable infrastructure and government bribes.

 

Car manufacturing plants can not compete within in the same group let alone with other manufacturers without JIT.

 

In conclusion leaving the CU and moving away from SM convergence, will kill the high volume car production sector over time as it becomes less competitive to assemble vehicles here than say, Hungary. There will be massive knock on effects for component manufacturers.

 

The Guardian piece reinforces the argument Tebee and I have been making. Did you actually read it?

Edited May 27, 2018 by Grouse

[soalbundy]

6 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

Really ?

 

This will make interesting reading for you. One of the Guardian's Brexit scare stories.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/03/brexit-uk-car-industry-mini-britain-eu

 

Then read the comments about the supply chain's contribution to Climate Change.

 

 

The mini is a German car BMW, it is already quite expensive for a small car so I can imagine it being taken to Germany if a hard or semi-hard brexit comes about.

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Car manufacturing is a highly competitive international business as is electronics for example. The difference being the shipping cost contribution to total costs. 

 

The UK was successful in winning direct foreign investment for car manufacturing in the face a severe competition from elsewhere in Europe. Multiple issues contributed to that success. Being part of the EU was one, JIT was another even allowing for the fact that the UK is an island. So was relatively low wages, reasonable infrastructure and government bribes.

 

Car manufacturing plants can not compete within in the same group let alone with other manufacturers without JIT.

 

In conclusion leaving the CU and moving away from SM convergence, will kill the high volume car production sector over time as it becomes less competitive to assemble vehicles here than say, Hungary. There will be massive knock on effects for component manufacturers.

 

The Guardian piece reinforces the argument Teebee and I have been making. Did you actually read it?

That does not answer my question. 

 

Anyway, you claim to be a highly educated, highly intellectual guy. So you will have great affinity with the now deceased, late great Stephen Hawking.

 

Quote

Hawking explains that humankind’s days on Earth are already numbered because of climate change, asteroid strikes, epidemics, and overpopulation. The only way to survive? We need to change planets, and fast. A lot could happen in 100 years, and we’ve proven that we’re capable of discovering and developing many things within a century. But could we really go multi-planetary in that timeframe?

https://futurism.com/stephen-hawking-humanity-only-has-100-years-left-on-earth-before-doomsday/

 

He reckoned that mankind has another 100 years left on Earth. Not much point worrying about Brexit.

[soalbundy]

Telegraph today, ''Government quietly planning for Britain to stay in EU after March deadline, Eurosceptics fear.''

[candide]

16 hours ago, tebee said:

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by candide
Double post

[soalbundy]

Telegraph today, ''Government quietly planning for Britain to stay in EU after March deadline, Eurosceptics fear.''

[Grouse]

For those who favour relying Soley upon WTO rules here is a list of other countries who do the same

 

https://medium.com/@MrWeeble/who-actually-trades-solely-under-wto-rules-1b6127ce33c6

[transam]

11 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

The mini is a German car BMW, it is already quite expensive for a small car so I can imagine it being taken to Germany if a hard or semi-hard brexit comes about.

The Mini is an English car fist produced in 1959...Bavarian Motor Works bought the name...

[candide]

16 hours ago, tebee said:

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by candide
Multiple posting

[Grouse]

For those who favour relying Soley upon WTO rules here is a list of other countries who do the same

 

https://medium.com/@MrWeeble/who-actually-trades-solely-under-wto-rules-1b6127ce33c6

[candide]

16 hours ago, tebee said:

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by candide
Multiple posting

[Grouse]

For those who favour relying Soley upon WTO rules here is a list of other countries who do the same

 

https://medium.com/@MrWeeble/who-actually-trades-solely-under-wto-rules-1b6127ce33c6

[Grouse]

27 minutes ago, Grouse said:

JIT is not an essential requirement for manufacturing. It is a nice to have and Car manufacturing will not be closed down because of JIT.

 

Now give us all your worldly wisdom and actually refute what I said.

I think my discussion of JIT with respect to car manufacture was addressed in my response. What is unclear for you?

[Orac]

39 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

That does not answer my question. 

 

Anyway, you claim to be a highly educated, highly intellectual guy. So you will have great affinity with the now deceased, late great Stephen Hawking.

 

https://futurism.com/stephen-hawking-humanity-only-has-100-years-left-on-earth-before-doomsday/

 

He reckoned that mankind has another 100 years left on Earth. Not much point worrying about Brexit.

 

So we have gone from £350m a week extra for the NHS to we are all going to die anyway  in two years and we haven't even left yet - how very Brexit.

[Eloquent pilgrim]

1 hour ago, soalbundy said:

The mini is a German car BMW, it is already quite expensive for a small car so I can imagine it being taken to Germany if a hard or semi-hard brexit comes about.

Even you can't question this ........it is from one of your favourite publications ‘The Guardian’

 

QUOTE

“A fully electric version of the Mini is to be built in the UK, giving a huge boost to the British car industry and relief to the government as it pursues an exit from the European Union.

The move ends worries the new model could be made overseas after a warning in February from German owner BMW that it may look outside the UK because of the uncertainties caused by Brexit.

BMW now says the electric drivetrain will be built at its plants in Bavaria before being integrated into the car at Cowley, near Oxford.

The car will be a variant of its three-door hatch model and will go into production in 2019”

[aright]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

According to the Economist, a US study found that implementing JIT led to an average 70% reduction in inventory. 50% reduction in labour costs and an 80% reduction in space requirements.

 

Did it also outline the costs when a component didn't arrive just in time and production closed down at very short notice. I used to run a soft drinks factory with  high speed lines. Total factory output was a pallet of soft drinks every minute. A truck can carry 32 europallets or 24 industrial size pallets so transport was arranged to load and carry a full vehicle of pop every half hour.If a single component out of many wasn't available a can, a closure, a tray etc lines would close down. Until such time as you could cancel vehicles they would continue to show up at the back door. Having booked those vehicles to carry loads now unavailable to them that incurs a cost. At the other end of the factory are delivery vehicles who cannot unload because the factory is full and with no through put. This incurs a cost. On many occasions I got calls from the police complaining queues of metal box vehicles were causing congestion outside the factory. Once the component was received it was then a massive exercise to organise labour, delivery and supply vehicles to get back to smooth flow. You then had the catch up costs of overtime to get back to plan and the costs imposed by the customer because of your inability to supply on time.

JIT has its place but not in every place. I have two businesses neither of which use JIT. I prefer a little less margin and a little more control.   

[tebee]

2 hours ago, The Renegade said:

Great reply.

 

JIT is not an essential requirement for manufacturing. It is a nice to have and Car manufacturing will not be closed down because of JIT.

 

Now give us all your worldly wisdom and actually refute what I said.

 

No doubt I will have to wait as long as your non forthcoming Irish History lesson.

 

 

 

 

if you want an independent opinion on what Brexit will do to the car industry read this from a US source

 

  https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-02-16/layoffs-arrive-in-brexit-britain-and-auto-workers-are-up-first?__twitter_impression=true

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

In a 'no deal' scenario, maybe yes. But certainly not if you still want a transition period or keep some of the club benefits.

Really hard to understand for brexiteers?????

Barnier is doing a very good job but he has to deal with impossible demands/wishes by the UK.

What negotiation. So far the UK has relented on many points, while the Brussel Bureaucrats, far from being prepared to accept the democratic decision of the British people, have instead held a very confrontational position. Their stance has been supported by some selfish remainers, as we can see here on T.V. What you should be asking yourself, is “why” are Brussel so intent on the U.K remaining in this so called union. Could it possible be that they are afraid that if a independent U.K is successful, that this will encourage other countries to question their membership of the hated E.U. Then add, how will the E.U balance it’s books without the charitable contributions from the British taxpayers. 

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, transam said:

The Mini is an English car fist produced in 1959...Bavarian Motor Works bought the name...

and redesigned it, brought it up to date and introduced it to quality, at the very least no empty whisky bottles have been found inside closed welded cavities as was the case at Leyland, for joke, how the owner laughed when the cause of the rattling noise was found.

[The Renegade]

36 minutes ago, tebee said:

if you want an independent opinion on what Brexit will do to the car industry read this from a US source

 

  https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2018-02-16/layoffs-arrive-in-brexit-britain-and-auto-workers-are-up-first?__twitter_impression=true

An article from Feb 2018. You should have tried an up to date article from bloomberg

 

Quote

EU Regulator Calls the End of Diesel in Several Years

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-27/diesel-cars-to-die-out-in-tesla-like-future-eu-regulator-says

 

If there is one Country that needs to worry about the Automotive Industry, it is Germany.

 

All brought about by the greed, cheating and rule breaking of the VW Group.

[nontabury]

Sorry, double post.

Edited May 27, 2018 by nontabury

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

An article from Feb 2018. You should have tried an up to date article from bloomberg

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-27/diesel-cars-to-die-out-in-tesla-like-future-eu-regulator-says

 

If there is one Country that needs to worry about the Automotive Industry, it is Germany.

 

All brought about by the greed, cheating and rule breaking of the VW Group. 

Why would Germany be incapable of transitioning its industrial capabilities to meet new regulations?

[nontabury]

6 hours ago, whatsupdoc said:

Then what is keeping the UK from a 'no deal' and just go to WTO rules? Time for the UK to make up its mind.

To many back stabbed, who only think of their own selfish interest. Add to them,those who are so brain washed,that they cannot think for themselves.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, aright said:

Did it also outline the costs when a component didn't arrive just in time and production closed down at very short notice. I used to run a soft drinks factory with  high speed lines. Total factory output was a pallet of soft drinks every minute. A truck can carry 32 europallets or 24 industrial size pallets so transport was arranged to load and carry a full vehicle of pop every half hour.If a single component out of many wasn't available a can, a closure, a tray etc lines would close down. Until such time as you could cancel vehicles they would continue to show up at the back door. Having booked those vehicles to carry loads now unavailable to them that incurs a cost. At the other end of the factory are delivery vehicles who cannot unload because the factory is full and with no through put. This incurs a cost. On many occasions I got calls from the police complaining queues of metal box vehicles were causing congestion outside the factory. Once the component was received it was then a massive exercise to organise labour, delivery and supply vehicles to get back to smooth flow. You then had the catch up costs of overtime to get back to plan and the costs imposed by the customer because of your inability to supply on time.

JIT has its place but not in every place. I have two businesses neither of which use JIT. I prefer a little less margin and a little more control.   

But the discussion is specifically about an industry that developed the concept and now relies heavily upon it. I am sure you are correct that it is not necessarily suitable for all industries, but production lines have been developed to maximise the efficiency of the system. As tebee says, there would need to be a fundamental change in operating model if the concept no longer worked - not to mention the loss of the efficiencies that it had previously brought about.

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

An article from Feb 2018. You should have tried an up to date article from bloomberg

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-27/diesel-cars-to-die-out-in-tesla-like-future-eu-regulator-says

 

If there is one Country that needs to worry about the Automotive Industry, it is Germany.

 

All brought about by the greed, cheating and rule breaking of the VW Group.

why, they too are going electric, there is an interesting youtube video of an almost fully automated BMW factory in China producing electric cars, no British car firms though...oh of course,there aren't any left.

[candide]

26 minutes ago, nontabury said:

What negotiation. So far the UK has relented on many points, while the Brussel Bureaucrats, far from being prepared to accept the democratic decision of the British people, have instead held a very confrontational position. Their stance has been supported by some selfish remainers, as we can see here on T.V. What you should be asking yourself, is “why” are Brussel so intent on the U.K remaining in this so called union. Could it possible be that they are afraid that if a independent U.K is successful, that this will encourage other countries to question their membership of the hated E.U. Then add, how will the E.U balance it’s books without the charitable contributions from the British taxpayers. 

You can elaborate any explanation you wish but there is a lesson to draw from this case. It confirms, in case it has ever been needed, that a small country does not have much negotiating power against a large country or union. Do you think a stand alone UK will have more power when it negotiates directly with China, Russia or the USA?