Brexit has created chaos in Britain – nobody voted for this

[aright]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

About representative democracies in general, but applies to ours too, this is why we don't have direct democracy (usualy)

 

 

First, the very idea of representative democracy is based on the fact that the preferences of the individual constituents do not make for good decisions in complex questions. The Federalist Papers still provide one of the most readable general arguments on the matter, but modern research confirms that only 'elites' fulfill the information requirements of rational choice. In other words: In representative democracies, decisions are likely to differ from the preferences of constituents, because they supposed to be based on more information than most constituents bother to process. Differences do not indicate a systematic problem

On the abortion issue, lets suppose an MP is opposed to it perhaps on religious or moral grounds but he represents a constituency which is 70% pro abortion. 

In an Abortion bill how should he vote?

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

But in the EEA, having to agree to free movement of goods, capital, services and people. Having to pay. Having to accept part of EU law. Not really what Brexit is about at all.

Correct.

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

I can't quote the whole of your post (9289) but I am aware that first referendum was in 1975. But the leave/remain debate was in full swing in 1973. As for the rest of your post the evidence that you refer to seems to be missing and the points that you make I don't really see as being significant anyway.

Translation: "I don't agree with your points, so they are not significant."

 

At least The Renegade provided an argument; 

13 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

This might be true for a minority, but I am  not having a significant number. To balance that out. How many voted remain due to Project Fear ? How about actual figures ?

 

Again. How about actual figures ? Significant minority means nothing. There are idiots everywhere, even on the remain side. Just look at the many postings on here

 I will try and find some figures for you.

 

In the meantime maybe nauseus will do the same to back up his claim that Yes won the 1975 election because of the Yes campaign's lies.

[The Renegade]

3 minutes ago, tebee said:

 

Reread these two statements, they are not contradictory, they are saying the same thing 

 

4 minutes ago, tebee said:

It doesn't matter., they are not there to mindlessly reflect the voting intentions of their constituents,

Not contradictory, just complete b@ll@cks.

 

How can an MP '' Mindlessly reflect voting intentions '' ?

 

Do MP's have Harrod's crystal balls or are they all expert mindreaders ?

[soalbundy]

2 hours ago, nontabury said:

We are now unfortunately in the E.U. Along with an unacceptable high number of low paying poor quality jobs. One of the main reasons for this,is the surge of unrestricted labour, due to the E.U. Imposed free movement of workers and their dependents. Hopefully when we take our country back, there will be rules put in place to only allow those with the necessary and required skills to obtain a work visa, disregarding their nationality.

many countries in the Eu have a high proportion of high quality jobs and would rather leave the low tech work to migrants. Lots of Turks etc on the production lines in car factories in Germany where very high wages are paid, rubbish bin collection, street cleaning, farm work etc are not jobs Germans aspire to, may be different in GB of course.

[nauseus]

21 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Amended.

1. A promise to hold a Referendum entered into Party Election Manifesto

 

2. The EU Referendum Act 2015.

   The referendum

(1)A referendum is to be held on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Union.

(2)The Secretary of State must, by regulations, appoint the day on which the referendum is to be held.

(3)The day appointed under subsection (2)—

(a)must be no later than 31 December 2017,

(b)must not be 5 May 2016, and

(c)must not be 4 May 2017.

(4)The question that is to appear on the ballot papers is—

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

(5)The alternative answers to that question that are to appear on the ballot papers are—

“Remain a member of the European Union

Leave the European Union”.

(6)In Wales, there must also appear on the ballot papers—

(a)the following Welsh version of the question—

“A ddylai’r Deyrnas Unedig aros yn aelod o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd neu adael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd?”, and

(b)the following Welsh versions of the alternative answers—

“Aros yn aelod o’r Undeb Ewropeaidd

Gadael yr Undeb Ewropeaidd”.

 

3. The actual Referendum in 2016.

 

4. Court case to ensure that TM adhered to the democratic process.

 

5. It is up to parliament to implement the democratic process.

 

6. MP's vote overwhelmingly to trigger Article 50 in January 2017.

Full text of Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218 (3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it. A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.

 

It should be noted that under this so called democratic process that there is no requirement for the UK to leave the single market or customs union, that is an interpretation made by TM and part of her government.

It should also be noted by leavers that under item 2 of Art 50 ,withdrawal is based on the functioning of the EU and not the functioning of the UK.

I have noted so much factual data is irrelevant above the last silly paragraphs.

 

It is the EU which requires and which has said that leaving states also leave the SM and the CU.

 

 

 

 

[7by7]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

How many of the above were agreed by the actual electorate in a National Referendum / Vote ?

 The UK is a representative Parliamentary democracy; referenda are not the norm.

 

If the government held a referendum on every law we would never be out of the polling stations!

 

8 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

If the EEC had not been changed by stealth into today's EU Brexit might not have happening either

 From that statement I can only assume that you were either not alive in 1992, were but are now so old your memory is gone or you were not living in the UK and had no interest in UK current affairs at the time!

 

The Maastricht Treaty and what it entailed, the formation of the EU as we know it today, was debated many times; both in Parliament and the media.

[soalbundy]

24 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

No need for apologies.

 

It was a joke. So I will do you the courtesy of answering your points.

 

Most likely true.

 

This might be true for a minority, but I am  not having a significant number. To balance that out. How many voted remain due to Project Fear ? How about actual figures ?

 

Again. How about actual figures ? Significant minority means nothing. There are idiots everywhere, even on the remain side. Just look at the many postings on here ??

 

Correct ??

There isn't even a bedsted let alone a bed of nails. It's an Ikea bed, the packet has been ordered but all that has arrived are the assembly instructions and nobody really understands them.?

[The Renegade]

2 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

From that statement I can only assume that you were either not alive in 1992, were but are now so old your memory is gone or you were not living in the UK and had no interest in UK current affairs at the time!

 

The Maastricht Treaty and what it entailed, the formation of the EU as we know it today, was debated many times; both in Parliament and the media.

Such a grown up answer !! You really know how to make friends and influence people.

 

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/politics/domestic_politics/factcheck+did+blair+promise+euro+referendum/558277.html

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/apr/20/eu.politics6

 

The EEC morphed into today's EU by stealth, with no regard for the electorate.

 

4 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

If the government held a referendum on every law we would never be out of the polling stations!

I do not recall ever seeing anyone calling for every law to be passed by a Referendum. So I have no idea what that comment was for. Rather stupid comment, don't you think ?

 

[The Renegade]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

There isn't even a bedsted let alone a bed of nails.

You're a really funny guy, a real hoot

 

Now go away and learn how to spell bedstead, instead of trying to be a wiseguy.

Edited June 16, 2018 by The Renegade

[tebee]

22 minutes ago, nauseus said:

But in the EEA, having to agree to free movement of goods, capital, services and people. Having to pay. Having to accept part of EU law. Not really what Brexit is about at all.

Indeed, but the four fundamental freedoms that make up the single market are inseparable - you have to decide if you can afford to lose the 25% of your trade that depends on them or accept them. 

[The Renegade]

41 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It should be noted that under this so called democratic process that there is no requirement for the UK to leave the single market or customs union, that is an interpretation made by TM and part of her government.

Here you go

 

Quote

The EU's chief negotiator Michel Barnier has told the UK there is no compromise position on the Single Market or customs union.

http://www.cityam.com/275454/michel-barnier-there-no-middle-way-single-market-customs

 

In or out, that is the UK's options.

 

In means under the control of Brussels, the ECJ and handing over £ Billions every year.

[transam]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

There isn't even a bedsted let alone a bed of nails. It's an Ikea bed, the packet has been ordered but all that has arrived are the assembly instructions and nobody really understands them.?

You must get a Polish guy to Assemble it...We are talking about the UK you know...

[Eloquent pilgrim]

The second ODI, England v Australia has just started at Sophia Gardens, Cardiff (Sky Sports) If you prefer, France v Australia has also just started in the World Cup (BBC1) Then at 10. 05 pm (Thai time) The second test Springboks v England from South Africa, so why don’t you all open a bottle of something nice, and resume battle tomorrow

[nauseus]

13 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Translation: "I don't agree with your points, so they are not significant."

 

At least The Renegade provided an argument; 

 I will try and find some figures for you.

 

In the meantime maybe nauseus will do the same to back up his claim that Yes won the 1975 election because of the Yes campaign's lies.

Don't misquote me. I said you points were insignificant (but not necessarily wrong). I did not claim that Yes won the 1975 election because of the Yes campaign's lies. However, in 1975 most people in the UK still widely believed that the EEC was merely a "common market" and not a planned political and economic union, so what I would claim is that if all that had been clearly declared by the government, we would not have voted to remain in it. 

 

 

 

[tebee]

20 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

 

Not contradictory, just complete b@ll@cks.

 

How can an MP '' Mindlessly reflect voting intentions '' ?

 

Do MP's have Harrod's crystal balls or are they all expert mindreaders ?

no, but you yourself were suggesting that if a majority of an MPs constutuants voted leave they should too. I'm glad you now see the error of your ways. 

[7by7]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

The UK is a representative Parliamentary democracy

 It is obvious that some people, notably @The Renegade, do not understand what this means.

 

In a representative democracy, people elect a representative to the legislature who then votes according to their conscience (or more likely these days according to the way their party tells them to!). The representative may take into account the views of their constituents, but is not bound by them.

 

In a delegate democracy, people in each constituency elect a delegate to the legislature and that delegate must vote the way their constituents tell them to. This means they have to refer back to the voters in their constituency on every single matter so that their constituents can hold a local referendum on the matter and so instruct their delegate how to vote according to the result of that referendum.

[soalbundy]

3 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

You're a really funny guy, a real hoot

 

Now go away and learn how to spell bedstead, instead of trying to be a wiseguy.

have you been at the wine gums again ?

[tebee]

29 minutes ago, aright said:

On the abortion issue, lets suppose an MP is opposed to it perhaps on religious or moral grounds but he represents a constituency which is 70% pro abortion. 

In an Abortion bill how should he vote?

He should vote with his conscience -or abstain 

[nontabury]

5 hours ago, soalbundy said:

What is treacherous about using the democratic process to try and avert a decision that they feel would be disastrous for the country, you should stop reading the Daily Express if you can't laugh at it.  

From reading all of your post, I’m surprised that as a person who has not lived in the U.K for decades,and has no intention of returning, and continually criticises, but never talks up the U.K. that you should be so interested in this subject.

[7by7]

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

25 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Translation: "I don't agree with your points, so they are not significant."

Don't misquote me. I said you points were insignificant (but not necessarily wrong). I did not claim that Yes won the 1975 election because of the Yes campaign's lies. However, in 1975 most people in the UK still widely believed that the EEC was merely a "common market" and not a planned political and economic union, so what I would claim is that if all that had been clearly declared by the government, we would not have voted to remain in it. 

 

I am not going back several pages to prove that i have not misquoted you. Those who have read them know the truth.

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

You must get a Polish guy to Assemble it...We are talking about the UK you know...

shouldn't be a problem, there must be thousands running around willing to do a job that a Brit has trouble with and they work for peanuts apparently.

[The Renegade]

1 minute ago, 7by7 said:

 It is obvious that some people, notably @The Renegade, do not understand what this means.

 

In a representative democracy, people elect a representative to the legislature who then votes according to their conscience (or more likely these days according to the way their party tells them to!). The representative may take into account the views of their constituents, but is not bound by them.

 

In a delegate democracy, people in each constituency elect a delegate to the legislature and that delegate must vote the way their constituents tell them to. This means they have to refer back to the voters in their constituency on every single matter so that their constituents can hold a local referendum on the matter and so instruct their delegate how to vote according to the result of that referendum.

No, it is you that does not understand.

 

Quote

The UK public elects Members of Parliament (MPs) to represent their interests and concerns in the House of Commons.

https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/mps/

 

Now show me where I find this ?

 

4 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

In a representative democracy, people elect a representative to the legislature who then votes according to their conscience

 

[tebee]

12 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

There isn't even a bedsted let alone a bed of nails. It's an Ikea bed, the packet has been ordered but all that has arrived are the assembly instructions and nobody really understands them.?

 

[tebee]

British politician Edmund Burke in his 1774 Speech to the Electors at Bristol at the Conclusion of the Poll was noted for his articulation of the principles of representation against the notion that elected officials should be delegates who exactly mirror the opinions of the electorate:

 

 

It ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitting attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiased opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, tebee said:

He should vote with his conscience -or abstain 

I disagree there, religion has no place in parliament and who ever heard of an MP with morals or a conscience.

[transam]

2 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

shouldn't be a problem, there must be thousands running around willing to do a job that a Brit has trouble with and they work for peanuts apparently.

Hence Brexit.....You seem to be learning.....

[tebee]

4 minutes ago, The Renegade said:

No, it is you that does not understand.

 

https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/mps/

 

Now show me where I find this ?

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trustee_model_of_representation

 

[aright]

1 minute ago, Eloquent pilgrim said:

The second ODI, England v Australia has just started at Sophia Gardens, Cardiff (Sky Sports) If you prefer, France v Australia has also just started in the World Cup (BBC1) Then at 10. 05 pm (Thai time) The second test Springboks v England from South Africa, so why don’t you all open a bottle of something nice, and resume battle tomorrow

I know you are a rugby man. Wasps fan? Tomorrow night is the World under 20 Cup from Beziers ITV4 ko 6pm UK time. I have been following this tournament and have seen some of the best rugby in a while. The French team is outstanding and they play England in the final tomorrow. Well worth a view or at least a record if viewing something else. I am watching France v Australia at the moment unfortunately it is not Shiraz o'clock in the UK yet.

[bristolboy]

On 6/15/2018 at 9:38 AM, transam said:

I haven't read that but I can assure you that similar stuff was said/thought when we crossed the channel in 1939. Did we bounce back..?

When they start invoking WW2 you know that means they've got nothing.