I'm charged with money laundering?

[SerenityLane]

Hello, forum.

 

I have an account in a Thai bank that I used for two months to cash out my own bitcoins.

On localbitcoins platform I sold bitcoins and accepted domestic transfers for about 700 000 THB in total.

 

Two weeks ago I found my account locked. I went to the bank and manager explained me that he has orders from police to hold remaining 300 000 THB there.

He gave me contact of a police officer in Bangkok who authorized the hold. My bank branch was in Chiang Mai.

 

I went to Chiang Mai tourist police, they called the contact and they told I received money from gangsters.

The police officer in Bangkok has sent a letter to my old address (that I never recieved) and later he will send another one.

If I will not show up after second letter deadline he will issue arrest order and forbid me to leave the country.

I think they are going to blame me of helping mafia.

 

I did nothing wrong, just sold my bitcoins for Thai Baht. I did not know who I am dealing with and did not have neither possibility nor obligation to check source of funds.

I can show all these trades to a person in charge, but I do not know how it works here and afraid that they will not care to understand.

Last thing I would want is to be stuck here for months until they clear my name.

 

What do you think is the best way to deal with such situation?

Should I fly away while I still can? Will they take my passport as soon as I show up?

Time is going fast and all lawyers are on holidays and weekend is coming.

Please advice what you would do?

 

 

 

[lkn]

 

6 hours ago, SerenityLane said:

Please advice what you would do?

Definitely get a lawyer who is familiar with anti money laundering law and what your worst-case situation may be (before you leave the country). It would be best to get this cleared up, as it would suck to have an outstanding arrest warrant in Thailand, which would be the likely outcome of leaving the country, plus you forego the 300,000 baht that has been frozen.

 

And do *not* voluntarily give the police any information, i.e. do not show them your trades or tell them that you sold bitcoins in Thailand.

 

By offering information to the police, you’re helping them build their case against you. They already froze your money and spent time on this, so a successful resolution for them would be to charge you with something specific, not to close the case as a misunderstanding.

 

You have obtained 700,000 baht in Thailand, do you have a work permit?

 

You may claim that you basically just sold currency, but did you declare this with customs when you brought it into Thailand?

 

And then you have the issue of possibly having helped get dirty money out of Thailand, which is the money laundering charge that the police seems to have already arrived at.

 

[phycokiller]

I would be interested to know what bank and who you were dealing with on localbitcoins, altho surely if they are gansters the police have already closed them down?

[siam2007]

5 hours ago, phycokiller said:

I would be interested to know what bank and who you were dealing with on localbitcoins, altho surely if they are gansters the police have already closed them down?

 

the Police have closed themselves down ?

[SerenityLane]

I have found a thoughtful lawyer in Bangkok and left the country while I still could.

I want to send lawyer screenshots of trades and sign power of attorney for him. He will go to police and will try to settle it down and unfreeze funds.

 

And do *not* voluntarily give the police any information, i.e. do not show them your trades or tell them that you sold bitcoins in Thailand.

 

By offering information to the police, you’re helping them build their case against you. They already froze your money and spent time on this, so a successful resolution for them would be to charge you with something specific, not to close the case as a misunderstanding.

 

How do I explain why I receive money from them if I don't show trades?

I came for vacation and have enough bitcoins to not work, my partner look after my bussiness in Russia and send me part of income.

International wires are expensive and I wanted to save on fees buying bitcoin there and sell in Thailand.

And I did not want to withdraw from my homeland account because of the extra fee 200 Baht.

 

You may claim that you basically just sold currency, but did you declare this with customs when you brought it into Thailand?

 

I think because Thailand does not legally see bitcoin as a currency, then requirement to declare 10 000 USD or equivalent does not apply here.

 

One thing important to mention is that I did not have work permit and not every branch wanted to open account for me.

But after I visit enough I found a branch of bank I will not name who opened account without work permit.

 

[SerenityLane]

8 hours ago, siam2007 said:

 

the Police have closed themselves down ?

I think that how inverstigation on me started.

[taninthai]

This is quite common ,I had the same thing happen to me in U.K..

was selling bitcoins and someone paid me from a dodgy bank account,U.K. bank froze account and I had to go bank and show all details of transactions,the banks think you are in on the fraud.  in the end the U.K. bank was fine but said if selling bitcoins need to take copy of persons ID and copy of card where money coming from.

it is for this reason I am a bit reluctant to trade the coins in Thailand,,,it seems fine to buy them but got to be very careful selling them

[FreddieRoyle]

15 hours ago, SerenityLane said:

I think that how inverstigation on me started.

Well done for getting out of the country while this gets sorted out, your freedom and safety are the main issue. 

[SerenityLane]

8 hours ago, taninthai said:

This is quite common ,I had the same thing happen to me in U.K..

was selling bitcoins and someone paid me from a dodgy bank account,U.K. bank froze account and I had to go bank and show all details of transactions,the banks think you are in on the fraud.  in the end the U.K. bank was fine but said if selling bitcoins need to take copy of persons ID and copy of card where money coming from.

it is for this reason I am a bit reluctant to trade the coins in Thailand,,,it seems fine to buy them but got to be very careful selling them

Yes, it is a common practice for banks to screen payments and require you to provide documents if they get suspicious. That's how I thought it will end when I came to bank first time after hold.

But in this case bank did not mind transactions, instead police initiated freeze for investigation and it is different process.

 

I have seen many traders in Thailand who require buyers to handwrite note that they are buying bitcoins and authorized to use funds. As well as their ID.

Possibly police routinely search for people dealing with bitcoins in Thailand and rip them off.

Yes, it is correct name for it because right now there is no regulation of it and they have no grounds to prosecute me. I can't wait to hear what they will say to my lawyer.

I am not a bank nor doing sales regularly thus I do not have to obey AML/KYC laws right?

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by SerenityLane

[dorchester]

Number 1 put any remaining bitcoin or other crypto on a trezor wallet and follow the instructions,but this is all hindsight isn't? You can book flights and hotels with cryto as well.My motto for Thailand is "expect the unexpected and expect the very least"

[Suradit69]

1 hour ago, dorchester said:

My motto for Thailand is "expect the unexpected and expect the very least"

... and believe that any whingeing message that someone posts of TV must be the whole story and completely true because it suits your agenda?? 

 

Banks in most countries are obliged to report suspicious activities. Unfortunately trading in cryptos is well known to have attracted the criminal element. Even in western countries governments are struggling to regulate crypto trades that were designed in large part to circumvent regulation and oversight.

 

The O/P has been allowed to leave the country while the matter is under investigation, so he hasn't been charged with anything yet. 

 

Quote

 

Almost half of all bitcoin transactions are associated with illegal activity, a new study has concluded.

Researchers have also linked a quarter of bitcoin users with crime, such as hacks, money laundering and the trading of drugs and illegal pornography.

Worryingly for investors, they believe that the sheer popularity of the cryptocurrency amongst criminals is a major contributor to its value. 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bitcoin-price-fall-criminals-blockchain-anonymous-cryptocurrency-zcash-monero-dash-a8174716.html

[SOTIRIOS]

...the consensus is...grey are aside....when you come here there is always the risk of losing everything...

 

...contest it.....???

 

...it will end up costing you millions.....and you will never win in the end.....

 

...arbitrary application of the law against foreigners.....is rampant...

 

 

[Mattd]

Sounds like you sold the Bitcoins to a known dodgy person or organisation that paid you from an account that was being tracked.

[jesimps]

49 minutes ago, Suradit69 said:

... and believe that any whingeing message that someone posts of TV must be the whole story and completely true because it suits your agenda?? 

 

Banks in most countries are obliged to report suspicious activities. Unfortunately trading in cryptos is well known to have attracted the criminal element. Even in western countries governments are struggling to regulate crypto trades that were designed in large part to circumvent regulation and oversight.

 

The O/P has been allowed to leave the country while the matter is under investigation, so he hasn't been charged with anything yet. 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/bitcoin-price-fall-criminals-blockchain-anonymous-cryptocurrency-zcash-monero-dash-a8174716.html

Oh christ! It's PC Suradit69 of the TVF Thai-bashing police. This guy trawls the forum 24/7 looking for the tiniest slur against the locals.

I wish he'd just beggar off and get a life.

Edited March 5, 2018 by jesimps

[XGM]

On 3/2/2018 at 1:08 PM, SerenityLane said:

International wires are expensive and I wanted to save on fees buying bitcoin there and sell in Thailand.

The fee for a swift of 700,000 baht would be around $25.

That's about 0.1% of the sum.

[Autonuaq]

Bitcoins was/is prohibited in thailand to trade in.

 

So fist you have to check if they lifted this ban on bitcoins.

Then bitcoins are not exchangable by the normal banks.

If so they you suppose to the the declaration form provided by the bank

If you put in cash money then you need to have a slip too.

How you exchange the bitcoins.

 

Thailand is the country of the paperwork and love trees on their desks.

 

[phycokiller]

my guess is that any transaction over 10000$ is potentially looked at, btc or not, as in the US

[Xaos]

Are this BTC transactions even traceable?

 

What proof they got?

 

Ask to see proofs

 

 

 

Sounds like cops scam

 

 

 

 

[Xaos]

Bitcoins was/is prohibited in thailand to trade in.
 
So fist you have to check if they lifted this ban on bitcoins.
Then bitcoins are not exchangable by the normal banks.
If so they you suppose to the the declaration form provided by the bank
If you put in cash money then you need to have a slip too.
How you exchange the bitcoins.
 
Thailand is the country of the paperwork and love trees on their desks.
 

No it's not

Its unregulated but not prohibited

I trade all the time on bx.in.th so many others



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[TallGuyJohninBKK]

On 3/3/2018 at 6:01 PM, SerenityLane said:

I am not a bank nor doing sales regularly thus I do not have to obey AML/KYC laws right?

 

 

I don't think you not being a bank, or not doing bitcoin sales regularly, somehow gives you a free pass on liability under Thailand's money laundering law.

 

That said, I can't say I know exactly how money laundering is legally defined here, and what kind of conduct can be construed as violating the law.

 

AMLO seems to operate pretty freely here, freezing accounts and seizing property via administrative proceedings without having to first go to a court to obtain some kind of warrant and make a showing of proof.

 

Thus, I wouldn't want to get on their wrong side -- unless I was a Thai dara celebrity, in which case, I'd surely be absolved of any and all wrongdoing after posing for the cameras with the investigating officers.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

27 minutes ago, Xaos said:

No it's not

Its unregulated but not prohibited

I trade all the time on bx.in.th so many others
 

 

The truth is somewhere in the middle. As best as I recall, the Central Bank of Thailand recently issued a regulation, or said they were going to, forbidding Thai banks from dealing with cryptocurrencies.

 

The regulation applied specifically to Thai banks under their authority. It didn't, AFAIK, directly impact what private citizens can do, except as perhaps limiting what they can do with their Thai banks.

 

[barsie]

Your problem is you basically are money laundering. It's not an issue if you were returning funds to the the source ie original bank you bought bitcoin with.

[CanuckThai]

I was concerned for my first etrade/transfer/Thai deposit.  Paper trail of both buys and sells from the "registered" platforms, but same rule applies to "crypto" as anything else in LOS investment.....   

 

I'd be damned, if I'm going to leave anything in excess of the amount I "need", in a Thai bank or trading platform.   With LOS being what it is, with shady and corrupt  "everything", documenting every step is necessary to cover your **arse.  

[cookieqw]

On 03/03/2018 at 11:01 AM, SerenityLane said:

Yes, it is a common practice for banks to screen payments and require you to provide documents if they get suspicious. That's how I thought it will end when I came to bank first time after hold.

But in this case bank did not mind transactions, instead police initiated freeze for investigation and it is different process.

 

I have seen many traders in Thailand who require buyers to handwrite note that they are buying bitcoins and authorized to use funds. As well as their ID.

Possibly police routinely search for people dealing with bitcoins in Thailand and rip them off.

Yes, it is correct name for it because right now there is no regulation of it and they have no grounds to prosecute me. I can't wait to hear what they will say to my lawyer.

I am not a bank nor doing sales regularly thus I do not have to obey AML/KYC laws right?

 

i would love to know the price you got when selling them

[ukrules]

48 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The truth is somewhere in the middle. As best as I recall, the Central Bank of Thailand recently issued a regulation, or said they were going to, forbidding Thai banks from dealing with cryptocurrencies.

Not quite, they closed down the bank accounts of exchanges which were trading unregulated securities, these are the ICOs.

 

That was the problem, not the coins themselves.

 

[Xaos]

The point here is not that he traded bitcoin, cuz many do, point is they accuse op dealing with gangsters, good excuse to nick your money's, I would want to see police proof, if true unlucky then. If no proof then it's banker and cop scam. BTC transactions are very hard to trace, only way would be they got ur names from localbitcoins site.

 

And do op got any proof for what he says to back it up like police papers, so we sure he not spreads FUD anything would do, blank out sensitive parts.

 

Somehow I don't buy this story.

 

Police can order bank to shut accounts? Unbelievable

 

Only courts can do that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mattd]

I have never traded Bitcoin or any other type of cryptocurrency, so excuse my ignorance, but if you buy or sell a batch of say Bitcoin, then at some point there must be an exchange of actual cash for that trade?

So what would happen if you sold xxx amount of Bitcoin to a know person that needed to get rid of some dirty cash and the financial transaction was from a known money laundering account, especially if this was a fairly large amount?

[Xaos]

BTW. If u not tied up here, leave, forget BTC.

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[biggles45]

"The O/P has been allowed to leave the country while the matter is under investigation, so he hasn't been charged with anything yet. "

 

I read it that he was smart enough to get out before the slow moving, most likely corrupt locals could take action to stop him. Good for him!

[ICECOOL]

If legally declared Russian income was traded for Bitcoin then should be easy to show. But if you sold bitcoin to a gangster or someone with cash from black market in Thailand that is a problem for you in Thailand. If you were paid in bitcoin from your business in Russia outside the tax system then that is likely a problem for you in Russia.