fiance wants a mortgage to pay off personal loan... then the story gets interesting

[zephyrblau]

preface: the K-1 expires May 9, further, due to her English proficiency (near zero) and communicating via Google translate (don't get me started) I may not understand the details.

story:  

she owns her home, but surrendered the deed for a 200K thb loan from a friend. she wants to buy the deed back to simplify the sale of the home & to get her "friend" off her back. 

I suggested she go to the bank. she says there is some complication due to our US marriage. she insists my signature would be required to sell the house and / or take out a mortgage to repay the personal loan.  she says she has consulted a lawyer. sounds "fishy".  

your input is appreciated. 

[sisaketsam]

I'd send her the money and then some more after that just to keep her interested.

[swissie]

When you asked her why she needs your signature, what did she say?  (with or without Google-Translate).

Or ask her Lawyer why she needs your signature. (with or without Google-Translate).

If in doubt, don't sighn anything, whistle the yankee-doodle instead and claim ignorance.

Cheers.

[zephyrblau]

1 hour ago, sisaketsam said:

I'd send her the money and then some more after that just to keep her interested.

OK I'll send you her bank account information & you can send her some (more) money. 

[zephyrblau]

1 hour ago, swissie said:

When you asked her why she needs your signature, what did she say?  (with or without Google-Translate).

Or ask her Lawyer why she needs your signature. (with or without Google-Translate).

If in doubt, don't sighn anything, whistle the yankee-doodle instead and claim ignorance.

Cheers.

she says something like "...When we get married, you have to sign a house sale with me. This is the law of Thailand.
If the spouse is selling something or making a loan, the spouse must sign the certificate every time" 

 

maybe this holds true for a Thai husband. I told her I would consult with a Thai lawyer & she said OK. in the meantime I am attempting to get input / feedback such that I am able to speak intelligently to the lawyer.

there is no way I will enter into a contract in Thailand.   

 

thanks for your input.  

[colinneil]

OP she is your fiance WHY?

Get out, stay out never ever think about marrying her.

[swissie]

8 minutes ago, colinneil said:

OP she is your fiance WHY?

Get out, stay out never ever think about marrying her.

In the Op headline she is his fiancé. In the text she is his wife. Makes a difference.

But OP is on the right track. He knows something is "Fishy". More than that, to me it smells like being in an abbatoire, being surrounded by 15 still unprocessed cadavers.

Cheers.

[simoh1490]

Your fiance is the owner of the property, you have no role in that ownership and even after you are married you still won't, except possibly to be a tenant at some point. Assets acquired before marriage remain the property of the acquiring party, assets acquired during the marriage are shared assets. Your signature is not needed for any aspect of her property ownership although I can see where she might think it would be useful in using you as a guarantor for a mortgage with the bank!

[BEVUP]

35 minutes ago, colinneil said:

OP she is your fiance WHY?

Get out, stay out never ever think about marrying her.

Good advice as I recon there is more to come

OP says fiance, 

Women says due to American marriage

Something a miss here 

I would think it's more like a Loan Shark (they usually hold Deeds )

I bet if she owns a car that will be next to get back

& one would wonder why in the hell would she want to sell the house after paying of Loan (they usually want to keep their house )

It can be done just as simply as not to pay off if all parties agree & debts are paid

[zephyrblau]

all points well taken. I've been traveling to Thailand for 5 - 6 years. a friend & former co-worker is married to a bar girl & right from the beginning I was made aware of the pitfalls. I've been a member of the forum for a few years so the level of cynicism here re: Thai women comes as no surprise. the first woman I was smitten with played me for 175K before announcing she would no relocate. 

my fiance is a widow. we were introduced by a mutual friend. she is not wise to the ways of the world in Thailand (P4P)  she has a son in his mid-20s who has been in a solid relationship for 3 - 4 years. his stable relationship speaks well of his upbringing. my fiance agrees to relocate. the reason for selling the house involves drama surrounding her sister, who she basically took in off the street, and her ex-brother in law who she does not trust any father than she could throw him. my fiance & her son own other properties.  she is not shy about asking for money but always sends me photos of required repairs. 

all of that said, I will drop her like the proverbial dirty shirt if I determine that I've been played.    

[HauptmannUK]

My wife recently wanted to buy some land in Thailaned (with her own money). The seller was desperate and sellIng cheap. A purchase was agreed but the land office would not process the transfer without her husband's (my) signature. Apparantly this was to 'protect your husband from fraud'. Since I was working in China at the time I couldn't sign and so she gave the money to her son to buy the land in his name.

[BEVUP]

13 minutes ago, HauptmannUK said:

Apparantly this was to 'protect your husband from fraud'.

Certainly not the case

It is a form that will state you are to have no interest at all in the property. I had to do the same (whilst married ) when a property was fully paid for & transferred to my Wife & Son 

I really don't know why they do this if property bought whilst marriage is part of a settlement if things go wrong

 

Now in the OP's case he will certainly have no say in the mentioned property, or his wife since it is in her sons name

[kingstonkid]

If your wife is selling to move then before she can sell it has to be debt free no matter what country you buy or sell the property.  If it is a bank mortgage the amount paid must be enough to pay the mortgage off in full and the money goes directly to the bank.

 

I agree the "friend" sounds like a shark, not uncommon here or anywhere else.

 

My suggestion would be to have the lawyer email you the papers that you need to sign with a translation on their letterhead.

 

You can then take a look at it and read it check it out and sign and return either by fax or by FedEx.

 

I would not return it via email.  FedEx takes 3 days.

 

 

[cheeryble]

I congratulate you for giving her the benefit of the doubt for the time being.

 

I'm pretty sure both husband and wife both have to sign agreement to financial and property transactions as they are legally one, and one signing something can encumber the other.

It can be a real pain and is a reason not to get officially married.

But are you married or not?

 

(not a lawyer.......don't take my word as writ in stone)

[jackdd]

You still didn't clarify your situation, sometimes you write wife, sometimes fiance: Are you married or not? If married, where is the marriage registered, in the US, in Thailand or both?

[473geo]

Ok your wife would require a mortgage from the Bank

To arrange the loan from the bank she must have the relevant documentation from the land office, in my experience it is the land office that may request the signature of the husband.

[LukKrueng]

10 hours ago, zephyrblau said:

she says something like "...When we get married, you have to sign a house sale with me. This is the law of Thailand.
If the spouse is selling something or making a loan, the spouse must sign the certificate every time" 

 

maybe this holds true for a Thai husband. I told her I would consult with a Thai lawyer & she said OK. in the meantime I am attempting to get input / feedback such that I am able to speak intelligently to the lawyer.

there is no way I will enter into a contract in Thailand.   

 

thanks for your input.  

first of all, if you can't communicate why did you marry??

Second, when a married person, be it Thai or foreigner buys/sells or mortgage a property, he/she needs the other half to consent by signing a document at the land office. However, if your wife bought the house before you were married and she didn't declare the marriage to different offices here in Thailand (such as change her title from "ms" to "Mrs"on her id card, she might get away with selling/mortgaging the house without your signature.

One point to think about is that whatever debts she incurs while you are married are also your debts

[tweedledee2]

Your US marriage is not recognized under Thai law.  You must obtain a Thai marriage certificate from an Amphur, to be legally married.  If you do not have a Thai marriage certificate any debt or financial obligation she legally or illegally entered into prior to receiving a certificate is her obligation. The document she wants you to sign may make you responsible for clearing "her" debt, which legally is not your responsibility.  I would not sign any documents without a certified translation and legal advice from a reputable English speaking attorney. 

[ronaldo0]

She wants you to be liable for paying her debt if she can't pay it.  Sounds like that's the case to me. 

[thesetat2013]

7 hours ago, zephyrblau said:

all points well taken. I've been traveling to Thailand for 5 - 6 years. a friend & former co-worker is married to a bar girl & right from the beginning I was made aware of the pitfalls. I've been a member of the forum for a few years so the level of cynicism here re: Thai women comes as no surprise. the first woman I was smitten with played me for 175K before announcing she would no relocate. 

my fiance is a widow. we were introduced by a mutual friend. she is not wise to the ways of the world in Thailand (P4P)  she has a son in his mid-20s who has been in a solid relationship for 3 - 4 years. his stable relationship speaks well of his upbringing. my fiance agrees to relocate. the reason for selling the house involves drama surrounding her sister, who she basically took in off the street, and her ex-brother in law who she does not trust any father than she could throw him. my fiance & her son own other properties.  she is not shy about asking for money but always sends me photos of required repairs. 

all of that said, I will drop her like the proverbial dirty shirt if I determine that I've been played.    

I would have to say that as her husband.. you may he asked to sign legal documents regarding loans. I did.. but that didn't make me responsible for payment to them. 

As her fiance.. you don't have to sign anything.. she is nothing to you until you are married. 

[mrfill]

What happened to the 200,000Bt that was loaned?

 

That's where your answer lies.

[Acemaker]

12 hours ago, zephyrblau said:

she says something like "...When we get married, you have to sign a house sale with me. This is the law of Thailand.
If the spouse is selling something or making a loan, the spouse must sign the certificate every time" 

 

maybe this holds true for a Thai husband. I told her I would consult with a Thai lawyer & she said OK. in the meantime I am attempting to get input / feedback such that I am able to speak intelligently to the lawyer.

there is no way I will enter into a contract in Thailand.   

 

thanks for your input.  

Deary Me, Wakey, Wakey. 

[grobec]

Yes, Married or fiancée might add clarity for legal opinions.

 

in either case 200kb is chump change compared to what you are signing up for so perhaps it is an opportunity the test and prove the trust level

 

[GJ2Thai]

a few comments:  1... As a Foreigner you can own a House / Condo, but you CANNOT own the land. ( Only own up to 49% )

                                 2.   Most RURAL land is "ROYAL ESTATE" and is not owned by the occupier.

                                  3.  It may be better to take a  lease on a building 

 

Bar girls all work the same scams... they talk to each other on how to extort as much money as they can from foreigners.

 

Traditionally, the eldest girl is responsible to support her parents and younger siblings  ( including her children if she has any) This is why they will never want to leave home.

 

They will want you to buy  everything,  Cars, Motorcycles, all repairs, Insurances, Taxes, land debts, in addition to the Gold necklaces , Bracelettes and rings.

 

often they will tell you they took the gold to pledge, because a child was sick... must pay the doctor.,  then they want you to pay the pledge to get their gold back..

 

you will never see and evidence ,  never see the money being paid at a bank, government office, pawn broker, hospital.

 

you will never see any official debt documents..

 

its always hand written on general stationary that can be purchased at any 7/11

 

tread very carefully..

 

I always send money ( on conditional loan ) ensure you keep the transscipt of all your chat text

its proof of the fraud and extorsion if you ever need it.

 

if you buy a house... always buy in your partners name, and you send the monthly payment...

 

if everything goes bad... just stop paying... the bank will swiftly reclaim the property..

just remember that the farming land or village land is generally not their own land... it usually government land,,, so unless they can produce a land document that can be verified, i would put up my middle finger.

 

 

IF indout, I always correspond with .https://www.siam-legal.com/, I find them very good to deal with, but there are many others.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by GJ2Thai
Added web address for Siam Legal

[khunPer]

16 hours ago, zephyrblau said:

she insists my signature would be required to sell the house and / or take out a mortgage...

To my knowledge it's common in Thailand that both husband and wife shall sign for a loan in property, or a mortgage; i.e. one part cannot take a loan without the other part accepting it.

 

EDIT: Just searched for some documentation at a good site to look for property rights, called SamuiForSale.com...

Quote

Management over property during marriage;

A prenuptial contract made before the marriage in Thailand may grant sole management of certain jointly owned property to one of the spouses. Without a prenuptial agreement the properties specified in section 1476 must be managed jointly by the husband and wife.

 

Section 1476. 'In managing the Sin Somros in the following cases, the husband and wife have to be joint manager, or one spouse has to obtain consent from the other:

 

1. Selling, exchanging, sale with the right of redemption, letting out property on hire-purchase, mortgaging, releasing mortgage to mortgagor or transferring the right of mortgage on immovable property or on mortgageable movable property.

Source and additional information: 

Thai marriage and marital property 

Edited March 30, 2018 by khunPer

[seajae]

my wife bought a block of units and when she paid for them at the land office they got me to sign the document  as well, as I understood it, it was to say I was aware/giving her permission to buy them as we were a married couple.

[DJ54]

From Northeast? She could be on the up and up but only as I don’t want to generalize. From my personal experience some find it extremely easy to bend or break the truth. I still in the game and not lost my mind but if I didn’t have a heart and used my instinct it would be anything that I could put on the bike and enjoy the scenery on the way out. 

[Thaidream]

Your  wife is being straight with you-   whoever she borrowed the 200,000 Baht from required some collateral. She used land which was duly registered at the land office.  The lender wants the money back.  It is also common for there to be a time limit imposed on the transaction  (2,3,4 years etc) and if the time limit is reached the land then belongs to the lender.

 

The document your wife wants signed should have both Thai and English subtitles- indicating you have no interest in the land. The forms are at the Land Office.

 

Getting a mortgage in Thailand is not easy and the bank would want many documents; proof of income; a land survey and it would take several months to get it approved.

 

The easiest solution is simply to  give your wife the 200,000 Baht and pay her friend and then they both go to the  Land Office to remove the hold on the land. I believe there is also a small amount of tax that has to be paid. The Land Office will give receipts and the 'friend' should also give a receipt or a document indicating monies paid and debt settled. You may want to ask for these.

 

I know all the above is correct- because  my wife has had loans in the same manner and I have also had houses sold in which the buyer had a mortgage and have also signed the documents as the husband which is required by Thai law indicating I have no interest in the purchase of land and also signed for the purchase of a car which was financed.

 

The only thing you might question is why she borrowed the 200K in the first place but her actions all sound legit to me.  Being married to a Thai women has many surprises. You might want to ask her if there are any more involving money. After 3 marriages to Thais- I  stopped asking.

 

[ToddinChonburi]

I think you already know the answer it is time to run.

[terryofcrete]

9 hours ago, zephyrblau said:

all points well taken. I've been traveling to Thailand for 5 - 6 years. a friend & former co-worker is married to a bar girl & right from the beginning I was made aware of the pitfalls. I've been a member of the forum for a few years so the level of cynicism here re: Thai women comes as no surprise. the first woman I was smitten with played me for 175K before announcing she would no relocate. 

my fiance is a widow. we were introduced by a mutual friend. she is not wise to the ways of the world in Thailand (P4P)  she has a son in his mid-20s who has been in a solid relationship for 3 - 4 years. his stable relationship speaks well of his upbringing. my fiance agrees to relocate. the reason for selling the house involves drama surrounding her sister, who she basically took in off the street, and her ex-brother in law who she does not trust any father than she could throw him. my fiance & her son own other properties.  she is not shy about asking for money but always sends me photos of required repairs. 

all of that said, I will drop her like the proverbial dirty shirt if I determine that I've been played.    

No... too messy.. stay out of it and if it comes to a stand off you will know that your fears were justified and you can walk away. You have been taken once, you know the old saying “ fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice ... shame on. Me “