Yulia Skripal, poisoned with her Russian double-agent father, is getting better

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

The similar assassination to which you refer will be the Litvinenko case. The official enquiry is widely perceived to have been botched. And you should inform yourself on the opinions of the Litvinenko family about who killed Alexander. They don't hold the same opinion as the UK government.

 

I'll take your claims of "widely" with a grain of salt, if you don't mind.

[ChouDoufu]

claims that russia is the only country with the knowledge and/or

capability to produce these chemical weapons are incorrect.

iranian scientists working with the opcw managed to produce

several versions in 2017.

 

Iranian chemists identify Russian chemical warfare agents

 

"... The Iranian researchers synthesised five ‘Novichok’ agents, along with four deuterated analogues....

.... The authors succeeded in synthesising and obtaining detailed mass spectral data on a series of unusual nerve agents. The data have been added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons’ Central Analytical Database (OCAD)...."

 

http://www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ezine/1591ca249b2/Iranian-chemists-identify-Russian-chemical-warfare-agents.html

 

boris johnson, in an interview with deutsche welle, appears to claim that

porton down does have samples of some version of novachok.  (not clear

if he meant samples taken during the investigation, or samples used in the

lab for research purposes).  if for research, did they make it on site?

 

http://www.dw.com/en/boris-johnson-russias-position-in-skripal-case-is-increasingly-bizarre/a-43043873

[Morch]

 

@ChouDoufu

 

And why would Iran, or any other country which isn't Russia, have an interest in offing the guy?

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, Basil B said:

could have been that no one ingested, inhaled or absorbed sufficient amount of the toxin that results in "certain death".

 

One thing I am sure of is there is compelling evidence that implicates the Russians and can understand why this information is being withheld, I mean if you confronted your neighbour for having it of with your wife you ain't going to tell him how you know if it was that you saw them with a spy camera that you set up to watch his wife undress in their bedroom...  

 

The government claims that it was a military grade nerve agent. Military grade nerve agents are designed to be deployed on the battlefield. They are so toxic, that they don't just kill the combatants suffering direct ingestation, they kill everybody who comes into contact with the first victim.

 

But, oh.....look: the Crown's presentation to court in respect of appointing a solicitor as guardian for Yulia Skripal (a breach of international law, by the way, which is now being legally challenged by Russia) states that "Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent." (my bold) Which contradicts statements by both the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary that Porton Down had conclusively identified the poison as a Novichok. Boris in an interview with Deutsche Welle on 22 March: "Let me be clear with you… the people from Porton Down, the laboratory… they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, ‘Are you sure?’ And he said there’s no doubt.”

[Khun Han]

12 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

claims that russia is the only country with the knowledge and/or

capability to produce these chemical weapons are incorrect.

iranian scientists working with the opcw managed to produce

several versions in 2017.

 

Iranian chemists identify Russian chemical warfare agents

 

"... The Iranian researchers synthesised five ‘Novichok’ agents, along with four deuterated analogues....

.... The authors succeeded in synthesising and obtaining detailed mass spectral data on a series of unusual nerve agents. The data have been added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons’ Central Analytical Database (OCAD)...."

 

http://www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ezine/1591ca249b2/Iranian-chemists-identify-Russian-chemical-warfare-agents.html

 

boris johnson, in an interview with deutsche welle, appears to claim that

porton down does have samples of some version of novachok.  (not clear

if he meant samples taken during the investigation, or samples used in the

lab for research purposes).  if for research, did they make it on site?

 

http://www.dw.com/en/boris-johnson-russias-position-in-skripal-case-is-increasingly-bizarre/a-43043873

 

Also, if Porton Down do have their own samples of a Novichok, they are holding them illegally, because they have failed to notify the OPCW as required under the relevant international law.

[ChouDoufu]

i dunno, you tell me.  i'm not concerning myself with conspiracy theories.   just looking at the evidence, or lack thereof, and the claims that have been made.

 

one point is that only russia has the expertise to produce this, and therefore russia must be responsible.  but we already know the formula was published back in the last century, and other countries have experimented.

 

the us department of state managed the cleanup of the former chemical weapons lab in uzbekistan.

 

the iranians have sythesized several versions and provided their data to the opcw.  if they can do it, many other countries are capable as well.  and not every country is a signatory to the chemical weapons convention to there are unknown unknowns to worry about.

 

and the point is that the claim that the alleged substance being "of a type" is no longer certain proof that russia was involved.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 30, 2018 by ChouDoufu
stupid formatting!

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

The government claims that it was a military grade nerve agent. Military grade nerve agents are designed to be deployed on the battlefield. They are so toxic, that they don't just kill the combatants suffering direct ingestation, they kill everybody who comes into contact with the first victim.

 

But, oh.....look: the Crown's presentation to court in respect of appointing a solicitor as guardian for Yulia Skripal (a breach of international law, by the way, which is now being legally challenged by Russia) states that "Porton Down Chemical and Biological Analyst Blood samples from Sergei Skripal and Yulia Skripal were analysed and the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent." (my bold) Which contradicts statements by both the Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary that Porton Down had conclusively identified the poison as a Novichok. Boris in an interview with Deutsche Welle on 22 March: "Let me be clear with you… the people from Porton Down, the laboratory… they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, ‘Are you sure?’ And he said there’s no doubt.”

 

You "argument" is based on semantics. "Military grade" doesn't necessarily mean kill everything in sight, there would almost certainly be variants. And then there are issues of dosage, exposure and delivery. It is quite feasible that the original substance was designed to produce such effects as you describe. Doesn't mean that was the end of it - if looking at such weapon projects, it's almost assured that there would be further developments.  

 

That would be in line with the statement to the court. It doesn't exactly contradict the original statements. The substance would have been recognized as Novichok, and later on, after further analysis, would be further identified as a variant. Sort of like recognizing the brand of car, or even the model, but not the year of make etc.

[Khun Han]

10 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

@ChouDoufu

 

And why would Iran, or any other country which isn't Russia, have an interest in offing the guy?

 

If the police had been allowed to do their job without huge government interference and presumption, we might have eventually found out. But I strongly suspect that this was connected to Sergei Skripal's business activities.

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

i dunno, you tell me.  i'm not concerning myself with conspiracy theories.   just looking at the evidence, or lack thereof, and the claims that have been made.

 

one point is that only russia has the expertise to produce this, and therefore russia must be responsible.  but we already know the formula was published back in the last century, and other countries have experimented.

 

the us department of state managed the cleanup of the former chemical weapons lab in uzbekistan.

 

the iranians have sythesized several versions and provided their data to the opcw.  if they can do it, many other countries are capable as well.  and not every country is a signatory to the chemical weapons convention to there are unknown unknowns to worry about.

 

and the point is that the claim that the alleged substance being "of a type" is no longer certain proof that russia was involved.

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, you're simply tossing hints about and refusing to acknowledge them. We've been through this exact song and dance before. Garden variety trolling.

 

What is the relevance of pointing out other countries supposedly being able to manufacture the substance (and no, it cannot be exactly the same in all cases, was explained earlier why) - considering they have no apparent motive? The "of a type" is just the semantic angle the former poster was going for - if that's what you're basing your argument on, good luck.

[Khun Han]

3 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You "argument" is based on semantics. "Military grade" doesn't necessarily mean kill everything in sight, there would almost certainly be variants. And then there are issues of dosage, exposure and delivery. It is quite feasible that the original substance was designed to produce such effects as you describe. Doesn't mean that was the end of it - if looking at such weapon projects, it's almost assured that there would be further developments.  

 

That would be in line with the statement to the court. It doesn't exactly contradict the original statements. The substance would have been recognized as Novichok, and later on, after further analysis, would be further identified as a variant. Sort of like recognizing the brand of car, or even the model, but not the year of make etc.

 

And then there's Salisbury Hospital consultant Stephen Davies taking the trouble to to write a letter to The Times, in which he stated that nobody had been treated at the hospital for nerve agent poisoning.

 

You can keep on making excuses for every discrepancy in this case. They are getting ever-more complex, and you'll soon have enough to fill a book.

[Morch]

4 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

If the police had been allowed to do their job without huge government interference and presumption, we might have eventually found out. But I strongly suspect that this was connected to Sergei Skripal's business activities.

 

Yeah, sure. If only this and that, we'd find an answer that panders to your politics. Not much of an argument. The same goes for alleging "business activities" which may result in someone trying an assassination using such a method. But do go on about "rational"...by all means.

[Morch]

1 minute ago, Khun Han said:

 

And then there's Salisbury Hospital consultant Stephen Davies taking the trouble to to write a letter to The Times, in which he stated that nobody had been treated at the hospital for nerve agent poisoning.

 

You can keep on making excuses for every discrepancy in this case. They are getting ever-more complex, and you'll soon have enough to fill a book.

 

You can blow any semi-relevant detail out of proportion, or somehow assume that all government agencies involved were somehow acting out of character (which is normally making a mess of things, left hand right hand issues, etc) and cast anything whatsoever in a sinister light. Whatever rocks your boat.

[ChouDoufu]

oh, now this is interesting. 

 

" the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent "

 

a nerve agent or related compound?  how do they define related?

novichok class nerve agent?  why add the "class" qualifier?

or closely related agent?  that's a lot of "or's".

 

semantics?  politicians and lawyers.....they live by semantics.  the above

quote doesn't really say anything definitive, and i think that's the point.

 

 

and as stated, the relevance to pointing out other countries have produced this, is that actions are being taken based on claims that russia is the only possible source.

[Khun Han]

Just now, Morch said:

 

Yeah, sure. If only this and that, we'd find an answer that panders to your politics. Not much of an argument. The same goes for alleging "business activities" which may result in someone trying an assassination using such a method. But do go on about "rational"...by all means.

 

But your whole argument in this thread revolves around 'Maybe the government really meant this, and not that, and we could interpret this as really meaning that, and maybe the left hand didn't know what the right hand was saying/doing.' etc, etc.....

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

oh, now this is interesting. 

 

" the findings indicated exposure to a nerve agent or related compound. The samples tested positive for the presence of a Novichok class nerve agent or closely related agent "

 

a nerve agent or related compound?  how do they define related?

novichok class nerve agent?  why add the "class" qualifier?

or closely related agent?  that's a lot of "or's".

 

semantics?  politicians and lawyers.....they live by semantics.  the above

quote doesn't really say anything definitive, and i think that's the point.

 

 

and as stated, the relevance to pointing out other countries have produced this, is that actions are being taken based on claims that russia is the only possible source.

 

It's pretty much the same as "of a kind" etc. The not conspiracy theory of interpreting this was offered above. But if semantics make you all fuzzy, enjoy.

 

It doesn't matter even if other countries can produce it, unless there is a plausible motive to carry such an assassination attempt. Russia is the prime suspect in this.

[ChouDoufu]

i'm terribly sorry if wanting to review the evidence constitutes trolling.

or in this case, ANY evidence of russian complicity.

 

i am not offering alternate theories.  i am questioning the lack of evidence

offered to support britain's conspiracy theory.   you claim (or believe the claims) that russia did it.  i do not accept that, as i am unconvinced due to lack of evidence.

 

i shall withhold judgement until we have something concrete.  something like lab test results that confirm novachok of type XXX......not some mealy-mouthed non-committal bit of fluff --  "a nerve agent or something like a nerve agent,  in the class of novachok, of a type developed by russia. or something similar-ish"

 

[Morch]

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

But your whole argument in this thread revolves around 'Maybe the government really meant this, and not that, and we could interpret this as really meaning that, and maybe the left hand didn't know what the right hand was saying/doing.' etc, etc.....

 

No, that's your lame attempt to misrepresent my argument.

 

I'm saying that Russia is the prime suspect due to capability, motive and being brazen enough to carry such actions. Russia, despite your attempts to claim otherwise, does have a bit of history in this department. Ignore that Putin tape as much as you like, it's still there.

 

All  the waffle so far does not suggest a credible alternative.

 

You were given a rational explanation as to the "semantic" issues you seem to make much of. I find that it fits better than assuming some unclear conspiracy of one sort or the other.

 

I think most people's experience with how government works and operates actually conforms with response not always being very coordinated or effective. Assuming that this indicates anything but the usual way things are handled is odd.

 

I do agree that there is information not made public. You choose to see it, once more, as something sinister, whereas from my point of view, the expectation of full disclosure (especially as investigations are ongoing) is not realistic, nor in line with how things are usually handled.

 

 

[Khun Han]

51 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I'll take your claims of "widely" with a grain of salt, if you don't mind.

 

But are you dismissing the Litvinenko family's claims too?

[Morch]

2 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

i'm terribly sorry if wanting to review the evidence constitutes trolling.

or in this case, ANY evidence of russian complicity.

 

i am not offering alternate theories.  i am questioning the lack of evidence

offered to support britain's conspiracy theory.   you claim (or believe the claims) that russia did it.  i do not accept that, as i am unconvinced due to lack of evidence.

 

i shall withhold judgement until we have something concrete.  something like lab test results that confirm novachok of type XXX......not some mealy-mouthed non-committal bit of fluff --  "a nerve agent or something like a nerve agent,  in the class of novachok, of a type developed by russia. or something similar-ish"

 

 

Whatever you say, sunshine.

 

You somehow expect, against experience, that an ongoing investigation of this magnitude will include full public disclosure at the time the investigation is ongoing? It doesn't happen even in lesser cases, so a somewhat bogus complaint.

 

Allow me to doubt your "withholding of judgement" - I'm pretty sure that nothing produced will be satisfactory enough for the likes of you.

 

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

But are you dismissing the Litvinenko family's claims too?

 

I'm dismissing your presentation of related facts and views. I'm dismissing your persistent insistence when it comes to denying various instances of Russian wrongdoing across multiple topics.

[ChouDoufu]

okay, but answer this for me.

 

what substance was used to poison the two russians?  and what actual (publicly available) proof is there?  (other than a politician misrepresenting a noncommittal initial analysis)

Edited March 30, 2018 by ChouDoufu

[Grouse]

Happy to hear that the daughter is getting better ?

[simple1]

9 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

okay, but answer this for me.

 

what substance was used to poison the two russians?  and what actual (publicly available) proof is there?  (other than a politician misrepresenting a noncommittal initial analysis)

 As you're so interested how is it that you're unaware the BBC has already informed that the alleged Novichok agent deployed was A-234.

 

As per usual many members going on about HMG conspiracy, sympathising with a dictatorship etc have a background of posting hard right propaganda. 

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.

 

[ChouDoufu]

2 hours ago, simple1 said:

 As you're so interested how is it that you're unaware the BBC has already informed that the alleged Novichok agent deployed was A-234.

 

As per usual many members going on about HMG conspiracy, sympathising with a dictatorship etc have a background of posting hard right propaganda. 

that's awesome!  now we're getting somewhere!  although it's really surprising as the opcw results won't be back for another couple of weeks, and the recent court filing for the blood draw for said test did not positively identify the agent.

 

unfortunately, i was unable to find anything on the googles.

would appreciate a link if you would be so kind.

 

and do keep the personal attacks to a minimum.  thanks.

 

remember, it's not my job to come up with alternate conspiracy theories to the government conspiracy theory.  it's every good citizen's responsibility to question government claims.  until you can give me that link to a positive test for A-224, there is still no evidence to support the accusations of culpability.

 

Edited March 31, 2018 by ChouDoufu
formating again.

[ChouDoufu]

no, sorry.  latest on bbc includes the standard nothing statement.  i expect if there were an actual identification of the agent used it would be prominently reported.

perhaps you came across an article simply repeating may's misstatements in parliament, although may didn't go so far as to identify the version.

 

Russian spy: What we know so far  (30 march)

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-43315636

 

"Prime Minister Theresa May said the chemical used in the attack had been identified as being part of a group of nerve agents developed by Russia known as Novichok. "

[simple1]

44 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

that's awesome!  now we're getting somewhere!  although it's really surprising as the opcw results won't be back for another couple of weeks, and the recent court filing for the blood draw for said test did not positively identify the agent.

 

unfortunately, i was unable to find anything on the googles.

would appreciate a link if you would be so kind.

 

and do keep the personal attacks to a minimum.  thanks.

 

remember, it's not my job to come up with alternate conspiracy theories to the government conspiracy theory.  it's every good citizen's responsibility to question government claims.  until you can give me that link to a positive test for A-224, there is still no evidence to support the accusations of culpability.

 

Search "BBC A-234". Don't know why you think you can dictate to HMG on what they will / will not release into the public domain during an ongoing investigation. If the case actually reaches Court one would assume some of the detail will be 'in camera' thereby frustrating you further.

[Morch]

50 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

that's awesome!  now we're getting somewhere!  although it's really surprising as the opcw results won't be back for another couple of weeks, and the recent court filing for the blood draw for said test did not positively identify the agent.

 

unfortunately, i was unable to find anything on the googles.

would appreciate a link if you would be so kind.

 

and do keep the personal attacks to a minimum.  thanks.

 

remember, it's not my job to come up with alternate conspiracy theories to the government conspiracy theory.  it's every good citizen's responsibility to question government claims.  until you can give me that link to a positive test for A-224, there is still no evidence to support the accusations of culpability.

 

 

It's not a good citizen's responsibility to raise government conspiracy theories. But interestingly that seems to be part of the new batch of Russian talking points.

[ChouDoufu]

5 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Search "BBC A-234". ....

 

would i be correct in assuming that you can not provide a link to "the BBC has already informed that the alleged Novichok agent deployed was A-234"?

[rockingrobin]

19 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

 

would i be correct in assuming that you can not provide a link to "the BBC has already informed that the alleged Novichok agent deployed was A-234"?

The Russian Ambassador suggests that the British have identified the agent as A-234

 

To me the most pertinent question is the motive. Skripal had lived openly in Salisbury , (I would assume that the security services would have conducted a risk assessment once he had been swapped ) , it would appear that no special precautions had been put in place. 

If Russia felt so betrayed by his actions why release him from prison  for the Anna Chapman spy circle.