Put Up With It Or Get Even?

[mark lamai]

Situation:

Bar me - farang beer/pool bar, cashier, no working ladies.

Bar next door - thai owned and operated, about 12 ladies in bar.

location: lamai beach, koh samui.

History:

relations cooled when on previous occassion i asked if they could play their music lower.

Now:

After returning from 2 months in aus, there are twice as many 'ladies" in the bar,

often very noisy and music very loud, thats OK, put up with it.

BUT

one of them has decided to use a whistle to attract customers,

shouting "hello, welcome sexy man" is not good enough anymore.

this whistle is very loud, penetrating and annoying to myself and my customers,

friends in a bar 50 metres away even complain about it.

What to do?

my previous Thai cashier said i could not talk to them because they are Thai and i am foreigner.

i.e. i have no "rights" to ask them to be polite and considerate.

1. reply in kind. echo their whistle with mine every time they use it.

2. drown them out with really loud music.

3. get some local mafia dude to ask politely to desist.

any suggestions?

NOTE:

this is a question about etiquette and social structures,

so please dont say ' serves you right farang scumbag bar owner, why dont you move or leave thailand we dont need slimy toads like you" etc etc...

pic is the view from my bar.

[simon43]

Mark - from the picture, it looks like your neighbouring bar is absolutely adjacent to you!!

Under those circumstances, how can you ever hope to 'compete' or drown out their music?

Rather, would it not be better to 'share' the same music? Many bars in Soi Bangla in Patong share the same music, distributed to all the bars.

I think you will only make progress talking to your neighbour if you get a trusted Thai person to discuss this with them.

Simon

PS - Is that dancer on the right a ladyboy??? (Or just plain ugly...)

[Jet Gorgon]

Aiya! They must be jealous of you or want your space.

If other bars are getting peeved about them, the Thai owners will sort it out. Maybe better to grin and bear it for a bit. I always found that if you show anger or annoyance, they'll step it up a bit, just because they can.

Sorry you have to deal with the crap. Just do not get angry.

It seems pretty open air there, so a wall might help.

[smartecosse]

get rid of the bar altogether

[ThaiPauly]

Surely people have to sit at those tables they are standing on at sometime.?

Does the noise not abate then?

As previously stated a wall would definatley help.

PS..If the noise is annoying YOUR customers...how long do you think people will stay in THEIR Bar??

Edited January 25, 2007 by ThaiPauly

[ColPyat]

any suggestions?

NOTE:

this is a question about etiquette and social structures,

so please dont say ' serves you right farang scumbag bar owner, why dont you move or leave thailand we dont need slimy toads like you" etc etc...

pic is the view from my bar.

If you compete with a local in such a murky business environment such as the bar business with a business that a local can easily do himself then you will always be at a disadvantage in a conflict. Unless you married into a local family, or have some pull that exceeds the local competitor's (highly unlikely) you will have no other choice than putting up with it, or to move.

Retaliating will only put the stakes up, lead to escalation, which you should only do when you are sure that you win, and have additionally some strong local support. People here have a tendency to go rather far at times when conflicts escalate.

I am sorry, but my compassion with you has limits. It's not exactly news that foreign bar and business owners in the islands get into such trouble regularly.

[Nawtilus]

Who out of the 2 of you is getting the most customers and cashflow ?

[mark lamai]

(a) its not "a lot of trouble" , its just really annoying.

( they have more customers than i do.

but what is this "rule" that a foreigner cannot talk/negotiate with a thai business?

what is behind it? the xenophobia thing?

[simon43]

Mark, of course there is no written rule that you - as a foreigner - cannot negotiate with a Thai business.

But think about the situation for a moment. You are both running bars. You both want to make money. The 'source' of the money (ie customers) is the same for you both. So you are competing against each other. In any business the aim is to make a profit. If that can be achieved by getting rid of competitors, then so be it....

You cannot really take action to get rid of your competitor. They are Thai and this is their country. It could be positively dangerous for you to do this - especially in Samui.

Can you maybe work out something together? In your circumstances, I think not. Your previous posts suggest that there has been a problem of sorts for many months between you. Do you have a trusted Thai partner who can help you? Do you speak good Thai?

This is not like 2 bars operating in sleepy Devon or something. You are a foreigner and trying to take business away from this Thai business. You cannot win and should cut your losses.

I have learnt (through losing money!), that successful business in Thailand can often be achieved by choosing a venture that does not directly compete with existing Thai businesses, or is so unique/technical etc that no Thai can compete with you.

Sorry not to give better news...

Simon

[steveromagnino]

(a) its not "a lot of trouble" , its just really annoying.

( they have more customers than i do.

but what is this "rule" that a foreigner cannot talk/negotiate with a thai business?

what is behind it? the xenophobia thing?

no, it is that as a foreigner you are probably at a disadvantage in a negotation, because typically, westerners are poor negotiators in Asia, and vice versa. Witness the American car industry in Japan for evidence of that.

My own encounters with small business owners from the west here leads me to think that some have problems controlling their tempers, and creating what appears to be a compromise but is actually a win for them. I'd hope this is because many foreigners come from a culture where negotation is not an important skill. The alternative, I suppose, is that they know how to do it, but aren't very good at it.

IF you can do the following you may get somewhere (typical of an Asian negotation):

- manage to conduct yourself with a smile

- manage to not raise your voice

- do all your talking in Thai, quality Thai, not bar Thai

- do some name dropping of some one important

- have the ability to establish senority over them (through connections, sheer money, respect of the community, access to heavies)

- have a strong relationship built up over time

My (white) boss back where I grew up and started work was one of the best negotatiors I have seen in action, and could run circles around Japanese, CHinese, other white people, whoever. His whole mentality was to do his homework, figure out what appeared to be concession points and what he wanted as an end result. His motto was 'you are a good negotiator or you are at the mercy of a good negotiator'

Your female staff may be very concerned you do not know the 'rules of engagement' and may escalate things. She may also be aware that your neighbours may consider you to be an outsider, a person that has come from a place of relatively high money yet unable to learn and speak their language - all the usual racist things locals think about immigrants, who knows. Then again, perhaps your female staff is simply lazy and enjoys the music and whatever anyway.

I strongly recommend you look for common ground; go and make friends; send some customers over there; offer to link sound systems that sort of thing; THEN start talking about altering sound levels, and adding some additional music. For the whistling, I'd suggest you explain as a farang that farangs really like another idea of a blackboard and do that, or persuade the girls to go and approach people and not whistle. You must explain this in a way that comes across as educational and not saying that what they are doing is wrong; otherwise they might not change. Give them a black board for it.

However, if you have at ANY point raised your voice of escalated things in the past, then your negotation chips are gone for this strategy, as you've already established yourself as an enemy. Escalate at your peril.

Looking at neighbourhood disputes and having laid off plenty of people in the past, I can assure you that the major issue isn't a Thai vs. farang one; it is that you have very different business models that aren't that compatible. Someone is going to win and someone is going to lose, and you have no real power in the situation. So best to be friends and win through influence.

After all...you must first get behind someone....if you wish to stab them in the back.

[Nawtilus]

If they are making more money than you, then simply copy their model, but better if you can, steal their customers and you will be happy, do it thai style.

[kiakaha]

buy all the bars in the block and compete against yourself

[tijnebijn]

I agree with some of the comments here.You should play it wise.

Why you put the bar open there in the first place?

If it is for making money,you should indeed copy them,and make more cash.

If it is for making some money and not being to bored,I should move.

To go in a conflict,even you are ###### right,in aplace like that you should avoid conflict.

You are the foriegner for them.

I always say it like this!You cannot ask from people who have a much lower IQ to understand people who have it much or slightly higher!

You cannot ask this from anybody,and here in Thailand it's very obvious that we have this encounter a lot.

[steveromagnino]

I always say it like this!You cannot ask from people who have a much lower IQ to understand people who have it much or slightly higher!

You cannot ask this from anybody,and here in Thailand it's very obvious that we have this encounter a lot.

I am curious who you think has the higher IQ here....the original poster who is making less money, or his competitor who is making more money?

And by 'we' are you saying you have a much lower IQ or a much higher IQ? I think there is a language issue, as you are implying that THai people are stupid, and I am not sure you mean to do so.

I think you would do well to consider that since you know neither party, it isn't really your place to comment on IQ, which generally has little to do with conflict resolution and negotation. Smart people like to talk about IQ after they have their shirts taken off their backs thanks to their own completely useless negotiation techniques. I guess it must make them feel better that, 'even though we just got totally ripped off, well it must be because we were so much smarter than those idiots, that they couldn't understand us.'

:=-)

Edited January 25, 2007 by steveromagnino

[tuky]

You cannot ask from people who have a much lower IQ to understand people who have it much or slightly higher!

The other guy is doing better. How does IQ come into it?

[chuchok]

Send him round some really nice food like a bucket of fresh prawns or something like that...or even something small (but nice) from your own country etc.In a situation like you have,you get more bees from honey rather than lemons....It's always a good start anyway.Get friendly first.You have nothing to lose.

[tijnebijn]

Sorry Steve,

In your regard I must say ,that in one way you are right.But what I meant is that of, when I wrote about if it is not for the money,(for having this bar).Why you should complaining if you want some more equal understanding.

This in my impression lacks here.And i did not write it in a good way.And I am also not a native English speaker(or writer),what now show's..............And you're right about I do not know both people or groups and it does'nt really fit in my comment.more about other topics I read lately and just kept talking about that.

[Acquiesce]

I always say it like this!You cannot ask from people who have a much lower IQ to understand people who have it much or slightly higher!

You cannot ask this from anybody,and here in Thailand it's very obvious that we have this encounter a lot.

I just have a quick question, what exactly is the reality of group IQ? Have there been any studies on the matter? If so, what were the results? For example, are Eastern Asians the smartest population on the planet, or do they just work harder as a group than the other world populations (IQ is more related to mental processing power and ability to learn than it is knowledge)? Is that population genetically more likely to be intelligent? I would say that a population comparison would yield similar results in IQ throughout every population, but as I said, I have not seen any studies on the matter.

If you have any proof to corroborate/disprove any of the statements that I have made, I would be interested to know about it.

[Chang_paarp]

Steve

This is the second "my neighbour hates me" thread you have have started. There were some very good suggestions last time, did you not learn from them? You need to learn to communicate with the neighbour or sell to him as he wants. A basic question you have to ask your self is "Am I in the right business for me?"

As to the whistle you might want to have someone point out that half his hearing customers leave when the d@mn thing is used and they might want to use a different method to attract attention. The only people they will attract with that marketing style are the ones no one else wants.

The only other thing that can be suggested is to over insure and have an accident.

[TAWP]

I just have a quick question, what exactly is the reality of group IQ? Have there been any studies on the matter? If so, what were the results? For example, are Eastern Asians the smartest population on the planet, or do they just work harder as a group than the other world populations (IQ is more related to mental processing power and ability to learn than it is knowledge)? Is that population genetically more likely to be intelligent? I would say that a population comparison would yield similar results in IQ throughout every population, but as I said, I have not seen any studies on the matter.

If you have any proof to corroborate/disprove any of the statements that I have made, I would be interested to know about it.

[chownah]

What will you do when the girls next door decide to have a beer at your place and they get really drunk and obnoxious and puke and spill beer on your pool table?

[JimsKnight]

If its just little whistle thats annoying you then try this, get some falang that you know to ask the girls / owner very nicely to stop. If that fails, get some other falang to go into the bar and say ' Oh we really like the bar to drink in but that whistling drives us crazy ' etc etc try that approach. Its not you thats getting involved but it may de-fuse the atmosphere somewhat.

OT but when I was last in Lamai beach area three years ago there wasn't a girly bar in sight! How things have moved on eh?

[OneeyedJohn]

Looking at those girls in the picture I'm surprised they don't use more than a whistle to get punters in the bar.

Moose doesn't come in to it

[mark lamai]

thanks one and all for helpful comments.

just a few points......

i am not whingeing about losing out in the business game. , (if i am).

its the friendly thing....

i have made good friends with other foreign bar owners i am in competition with,

but i cannot with this thai bar, though i have been terribly nice (most of the time)

initially i gave them heaps of stuff for free, but when this got out hand, the 'friendship' dried up as soon as they could get nothing for free from me.

the bar owner lady will not even look at me let alone talk, any negotiation is impossible.

its fine if they want to be like that, up to them.

in conclusion i have to assume that they are just not a nice bunch of people.

BTW they have more customers yes, but a lot of mouths to feed and drinks to supply to the girls,

so i dont know if they make any money in the end.

also i do understand its all about the money and power structures in the local society.

there are at least 3 local thai 'mafia' men , friends of friends, who could be called on for assistance,

i dont want to do that and its not that serious.

just a mystery!!