Trump proposes $100 billion more in tariffs on China, cites IP

[starky]

25 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

And 1.184 is not really nearly 1.5, but never let fact get in the way of a good bashing.

Yes well it's not nearly 1.5 but it is bucketloads less than what China owes the US eh...don't know how claiming that the US owes China a shit tonne of money is a bash. I thought it is closer to a fact.

[Slip]

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/381913-gop-senator-on-tariff-threat-hopefully-trump-is-blowing-off-steam-because

 

Quote

"He’s threatening to light American agriculture on fire. Let’s absolutely take on Chinese bad behavior, but with a plan that punishes them instead of us. This is the dumbest possible way to do this," he continued. 

 

[Andaman Al]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

Also if China says no to Google, FB, Twitter, Youtube, etc, then the world should feel free to say no to Chine products also. Fair deal.

I have no issue with the world saying no to Chinese products, it is a free market, but if you impose tariffs don't be surprised when tariffs are thrown back at you.

 

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

China started it all, by demanding international companies to store IP information in China.

Not true. For the last decade in Asia (at least) and the Middle East, if the countries bought anything (large expenditure) in particular to do with arms then any Asian country has required at least 30-45% of the work be carried out in country with technology transfer. The US and European companies were only too happy to oblige. And yes the Chinese (and Americans) can reverse engineer anything they want very quickly. ALL sales of US software and sensitive equipment MUST be fitted with a back door in order that US law enforcement and intelligence agencies can access anything anywhere they wish. How about all US software and hardware is banned until that little hole is plugged?

 

Funny how the US complains about IP being stolen when one of the biggest IP crooks of all time - Thomas Edison was allowed to rob ideas with impunity and claim them as his own (and US), encouraged completely by the US Government.

 

This IS a trade war and it will have serious consequences for the US, even if Trump 'walks back' his threats, he is not doing a property deal, other countries will simply not enter into new trade negotiations with the US when the word of the leader means absolutely nothing. MACAB   Make America Crash and Burn. Get some popcorn and go and short the Dow Jones.

[Andaman Al]

1 hour ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

And 1.184 is not really nearly 1.5, but never let fact get in the way of a good bashing.

Did you really just say that? I think when you get to 1.2 trillion (are you happy with that approximate amount?) then 1.2-1.5 is irrelevant, it is huge amounts of money and if the Chinese start cashing that paper in then their is big trouble.

 

Real genuine news!!---I know through one of my businesses that operates in China that they are quietly but massively off loading USD. They are exchanging billions and billions for other safe (ish) currencies. So if you know a country or individual wanting to offload several billion upwards at a time in currency then get in touch, the Chinese are willing to exchange for the USD with an 8% discount. Now I wonder why the Chinese are getting rid of all these USD? Something is happening, I don't know what, but there is frenetic activity going on and it is off market. Use the information however you see fit, it is genuine and I feel the Chinese are going to pull a blinder soon. I just wish I knew what it was.

[Srikcir]

2 hours ago, starky said:

Yes well it's not nearly 1.5 but it is bucketloads less than what China owes the US eh...don't know how claiming that the US owes China a shit tonne of money is a bash. I thought it is closer to a fact.

China holds US Treasury bonds that are considered debt. Those bonds have a fixed face amount, interest rate and maturity date. So long as the US meets its interest payments on the bonds, China cannot affect the US economy by holding US debt.

Whatever debt China does sell is simply purchased by other countries.

Is it a risk for America that China holds over $1 trillion in U.S. debt?

(China Power Project by Center for Strategic and International Studies)

What China can do, however, is not to buy any further US debt, ie., the $1 trillion debt created by the Tax Reform Act and FY 2019 Budget. The US will likely find substitute purchasers of new debt but at perhaps higher interest rate. Higher cost of loan servicing by law must be paid. That would require substantial cuts in government domestic spending that in turn could damage the US economy.

[lannarebirth]

1 hour ago, Andaman Al said:

Did you really just say that? I think when you get to 1.2 trillion (are you happy with that approximate amount?) then 1.2-1.5 is irrelevant, it is huge amounts of money and if the Chinese start cashing that paper in then their is big trouble.

 

Real genuine news!!---I know through one of my businesses that operates in China that they are quietly but massively off loading USD. They are exchanging billions and billions for other safe (ish) currencies. So if you know a country or individual wanting to offload several billion upwards at a time in currency then get in touch, the Chinese are willing to exchange for the USD with an 8% discount. Now I wonder why the Chinese are getting rid of all these USD? Something is happening, I don't know what, but there is frenetic activity going on and it is off market. Use the information however you see fit, it is genuine and I feel the Chinese are going to pull a blinder soon. I just wish I knew what it was.

 

I really don't believe any of that unless you're talking about laundering money or avoiding currency controls. All these major currencies are fungible with very low spreads. 8% discount?  The major banks would set up an arbitrage on that so fast it would make your head spin. $USD's comprise just under 90% of the greater than 5 TRILLION dollars in foreign exchange traded each day.

[geriatrickid]

10 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Not to mention the knock on prices on any everyday item that uses metal, such as tin cans for food and drink. cars, motorbikes, buses, trucks, trains, ships, aircraft. There will be losses in the farming industry as well in the export of pigs and soya.. Those manufacturers will HAVE to put their prices up to cover their costs in "helping" 140,000 people in the steel and metal industry. More jobs will be lost in other industries than in the steel industry and the people who lose their jobs will NOT be able to pay.

 

But don't worry about them.

 

Trade wars are easy to win. Donald Trump tweeted that so it must be true.

 

https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a19681395/trump-china-trade-war-lost-500-billion/

 

There are many more comments if you wish to Google them.

The incremental additional cost for the average consumer is insignificant.

the math has been done. Interesting that so many  left wing people are abandoning one of the core principles of social activism which was to ensure that workers everywhere had rights and fair wages.

[geriatrickid]

27 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

China holds US Treasury bonds that are considered debt. Those bonds have a fixed face amount, interest rate and maturity date. So long as the US meets its interest payments on the bonds, China cannot affect the US economy by holding US debt.

Whatever debt China does sell is simply purchased by other countries.

Is it a risk for America that China holds over $1 trillion in U.S. debt?

(China Power Project by Center for Strategic and International Studies)

What China can do, however, is not to buy any further US debt, ie., the $1 trillion debt created by the Tax Reform Act and FY 2019 Budget. The US will likely find substitute purchasers of new debt but at perhaps higher interest rate. Higher cost of loan servicing by law must be paid. That would require substantial cuts in government domestic spending that in turn could damage the US economy.

OK, so China has investments in the USA. It doesn't want to lose money on its investments so I doubt it will do anything to damage the investments. It can't just dump the Waldorf Astoria on the market and make its investment back. What if the USA imposes currency repatriation and controls similar to those which apply in China? And if China restructures its investments? The USA should thank China for forcing the USA to manage its debt.

[lannarebirth]

3 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

The incremental additional cost for the average consumer is insignificant.

the math has been done. Interesting that so many  left wing people are abandoning one of the core principles of social activism which was to ensure that workers everywhere had rights and fair wages.

 

That's what I don't get. There was once this utopia in their view where the rich paid much higher taxes and the poor could get decent jobs providing economic mobility. Now they seem happy to leave them out of the economy, buying tchotchkes from China and give them a stipend each month to survive and then mock them and call them deplorables. They seem blind to their own hatefulness and elitism.

[Slip]

5 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

The incremental additional cost for the average consumer is insignificant.

the math has been done. Interesting that so many  left wing people are abandoning one of the core principles of social activism which was to ensure that workers everywhere had rights and fair wages.

Not that I'm doubting you, but can you offer any further reading on that maths?  I can see how tin cans for example would be relatively insignificant, but not so much ships, aeroplanes, and rail tracks.

[spidermike007]

I believe Tiny Don is risking far more, than the Chinese. They are far less dependent on the US, than they used to be. And they are in a position of strength, with trillions in reserves. The US on the other hand has 21 trillion in debt (not counting the Iraq and Afghanistan related debt, which has always been off the books, after Cheney got congress to sign that ridiculous declaration, which probably adds another 10 trillion to the debt. So, we may be looking at 31 trillion. Is that sustainable? 

 

Thousands of American companies manufacture in China. Their products will now be subject to tariffs. Both the leader of the American Retail association, and a GOP senator from Nebraska have stated that Tiny Don is playing with fire, and may be completely out of his element.

 

Let us never forget. This man is a very mediocre businessman. He bankrupted five companies. He amassed most of his wealth by stealing it from investors and small businessmen. Anyone can make a fortune by stealing. Not much of an accomplishment. This guy is NOT a good negotiator. He is not a diplomat. He is a charlatan, circus huckster reality TV show host. Welcome to the Tiny Don show. 

 

This man appears to be becoming increasingly unhinged, by the day. I think the stress of the job is getting to him, and he does not appear to be able to handle all of the disapproval. He is used to having people kiss his butt wherever he goes. Now, he is getting alot of pushback, and it appears to be making him downright nuts. If he was not insane to begin with, he is showing real signs of it now.

 

My prediction is that he is going to crash and burn. Within 12 months. Either resignation under disgrace, or imprisonment. Both would be a beautiful thing for the planet, and the nation. 

 

This has got to be the most chaotic, least organized, and most incompetent leader, and administration in recent history. Every day brings more chaos. Little Don cannot help but shoot himself in the foot daily. The little bit of talent that the administration had, is leaving in droves. They are fleeing the most radioactive man in America.

 

Tiny DT. The art of moving America backwards, and lowering the quality of life for the average American. 

The art of I cannot make a deal to save my life. 

The art of losing talent in droves, and replacing them with sycophantic fools, devoid of talent or experience. Like The appointment of Lynne Patton, a wedding planner and longtime Trump family associate, to head the Housing and Urban Development's office for New York and New Jersey, and the talk show host that he just appointed as a chief economic advisor, because he talk smooth and looks good on TV. Good one Don. Now he appoints John Bolton? This man is not qualified to lead the boy scout chapter of Indianapolis. Ge should be kept as far away from foreign policy decisions as possible, with his hateful and toxic views. I give him 90 days, before he is dismissed. 

 

The art of not being able to fill vacancies, and leading a nation, without the help of key appointees. The Trump administration will usher in the second quarter of its presidential term with hundreds of vacancies still left to fill in departments throughout the administration. According to the Washington Post and Partnership for Public Service, only 241 key positions requiring Senate confirmation — out of 633 — have been confirmed as of Jan. 18, with 244 positions still without a nominee. The 633 key positions are a small portion of over 1,200 total positions requiring Senate confirmation, the Post noted. Trump’s sluggish staffing stands in stark contrast to his predecessors. According to the Post, Trump had 301 total confirmed nominees by Jan. 18, as compared with 452 confirmations by former President Barack Obama, 493 by George W. Bush and 471 by Bill Clinton at the same point in their terms. 

•  

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2018 by spidermike007

[lannarebirth]

18 minutes ago, spidermike007 said:

I believe Tiny Don is risking far more, than the Chinese. They are far less dependent on the US, than they used to be. And they are in a position of strength, with trillions in reserves. The US on the other hand has 21 trillion in debt (not counting the Iraq and Afghanistan related debt, which has always been off the books, after Cheney got congress to sign that ridiculous declaration, which probably adds another 10 trillion to the debt. So, we may be looking at 31 trillion. Is that sustainable? 

 

 

 

 

China has about 4.3 Billion ($USD) in national debt. About 41% of GDP. About 80% of that debt is denominated in $USD. That does not count corporate and private debt which is closing in on 200% of GDP.

Edited April 6, 2018 by lannarebirth

[FritsSikkink]

4 hours ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 In effect nothing has changes in America, 

Can you show me the math or are you just dreaming?

[Andaman Al]

38 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

China has about 4.3 Billion ($USD) in national debt. About 41% of GDP. About 80% of that debt is denominated in $USD. That does not count corporate and private debt which is closing in on 200% of GDP.

I think your 'Billion' should be a Trillion.

[lannarebirth]

1 minute ago, Andaman Al said:

I think your 'Billion' should be a Trillion.

 

Correct, thank you.

[Langsuan Man]

Trump fires a shotgun at Chinese trade and China fires an rifle at US trade, who do you think is the more stable genius ?

 

Quote

How China hit Donald Trump’s supporters where it hurts as tariffs target Republican Party’s heartlands

 

Beijing’s levies on agricultural products – which will directly affect areas represented by senior Republicans, including House Speaker Paul Ryan and Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell – will do little to calm the party’s jitters

source:http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2140464/how-china-hit-donald-trumps-supporters-where-it-hurts

[lovelomsak]

16 minutes ago, Langsuan Man said:

Trump fires a shotgun at Chinese trade and China fires an rifle at US trade, who do you think is the more stable genius

The one who can play the long game and win. Which is probably Trump.

[Becker]

3 minutes ago, lovelomsak said:

The one who can play the long game and win. Which is probably Trump.

Yes, because China is not known for playing the long game and the stable genius in the WH with the attention span of a genius gnat has it all planned out 

[Srikcir]

3 minutes ago, lovelomsak said:

The one who can play the long game and win. Which is probably Trump.

What long game has Trump won? Building a gambling empire - no; establishing a credible university - no; operate a successful airline - no; building a real estate empire from the ground up - no.

Trump thrives on instant, impetuous child-like gratification, even if it means reversing himself within the same sentence. Trump is guided by adoration. He is not a strategic thinker nor has the maturity and patience to become one.

Between China and the US - who will still be the nation's leader 10 years from now? Xi.

 

[Srikcir]

10 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

The USA should thank China for forcing the USA to manage its debt.

It's the US Constitution that requires the US to manage its debt.

Perhaps then China should thank the US for being a responsible democracy.

[Grumpy Duck]

21 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Well, yes, this scenario is going to get more ugly. But who do you think is going to feel the pain more ?  America or China ? 

It depends on your definition of who “America” is? To trumpalumpa only white wealthy people matter. 

I suspect they will be the ones who will be ?suffering?  

[lannarebirth]

22 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Well, yes, this scenario is going to get more ugly. But who do you think is going to feel the pain more ?  America or China ? 

I would suggest the country that has a 375 Billion $USD trade surplus has more to lose. The Dollar Store in the US may be affected as well.

[Langsuan Man]

1 hour ago, lovelomsak said:

The one who can play the long game and win. Which is probably Trump.

Not if Mueller has something to say about it 

[Grumpy Duck]

I worked mainly in the building trades since I got out of the Army in ‘79. In all my years working in building water, sewer, & storm drain systems I cannot remember seeing “made in USA” on any steel fittings most were marked India. Now yes a lot of steel pipe was US made as I recall, but little steel was used. Most was plastic, clay, & cement. For a long time water lines were made from transite pipe which was all US made a conglomerate of cement and asbestos, (discontinued in 1980)

But I have been retired since 2010. If you are in the US and look st a street manhole cover it will likely say India on it. 

[Grumpy Duck]

56 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

What long game has Trump won? Building a gambling empire - no; establishing a credible university - no; operate a successful airline - no; building a real estate empire from the ground up - no.

Trump thrives on instant, impetuous child-like gratification, even if it means reversing himself within the same sentence. Trump is guided by adoration. He is not a strategic thinker nor has the maturity and patience to become one.

Between China and the US - who will still be the nation's leader 10 years from now? Xi.

 

Yes especially since the party recently appointed him for life. 

[Grumpy Duck]

10 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

That's what I don't get. There was once this utopia in their view where the rich paid much higher taxes and the poor could get decent jobs providing economic mobility. Now they seem happy to leave them out of the economy, buying tchotchkes from China and give them a stipend each month to survive and then mock them and call them deplorables. They seem blind to their own hatefulness and elitism.

There are very few liberals remaining in the Democratic Party. Since Reagan and especially since the citizens united decision most have become republican light. While republicans have moved to the radical right making the john birch society look liberal the democrats have also moved right to get them corporate campaign contributions which is why I supported Bernie. The US had its greatest financial growth during the late 1940’s through the early 1960’s when the top tax rates set by a republican (Ike) were around 90%. This was the creation of the “working class aka middle class” which has been eliminated by give a ways to the rich starting with Reagan. 

But the wealthy never pay so much in taxes as they sent the tax code to their congress for a rubber stamp. Most of their income, (that is not hidden in tax havens) is not taxed as “income” as workers are, their taxes are based on capital gains with a lesser rate and way more allowances. 

[lannarebirth]

11 minutes ago, Grumpy Duck said:

There are very few liberals remaining in the Democratic Party. Since Reagan and especially since the citizens united decision most have become republican light. While republicans have moved to the radical right making the john birch society look liberal the democrats have also moved right to get them corporate campaign contributions which is why I supported Bernie. The US had its greatest financial growth during the late 1940’s through the early 1960’s when the top tax rates set by a republican (Ike) were around 90%. This was the creation of the “working class aka middle class” which has been eliminated by give a ways to the rich starting with Reagan. 

But the wealthy never pay so much in taxes as they sent the tax code to their congress for a rubber stamp. Most of their income, (that is not hidden in tax havens) is not taxed as “income” as workers are, their taxes are based on capital gains with a lesser rate and way more allowances. 

 

My sentiments exactly. I never understood why Nader never gained traction. He would not have taxed the first $100,000 of labor income from anyone. I voted for Bernie too but I only agreed with about 1/2 of his intentions (or those many of his supporters expected from him anyway). Taxing labor is stupid. Making people who earn more money pay more for healthcare is stupid. Nader correctly takes aim at "wealth" not income.  There's no one looking at that now. I look at the Democrat bench for 2020 and it looks dismal. "We're Not Trump"!

[billd766]

12 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

The incremental additional cost for the average consumer is insignificant.

the math has been done. Interesting that so many  left wing people are abandoning one of the core principles of social activism which was to ensure that workers everywhere had rights and fair wages.

geriatrickid quoted you in a topic: Trump proposes $100 billion more in tariffs on China, cites IP
12 hours ago

 

Really?

 

Ask Boeing about the proposed tarrif on aircraft heavier than 45,000kg, or the soya bean and pig farmers what they think.

 

How many cans of food and drink are consumed in the USA every day and then thrown away?

 

How many manufacturing jobs were transferred offshore to China with the subsequent loss of US jobs by US companies? Apple, Harley Davidson motorbike to name but 2. If they return to the USA and are manufactured by US citizens, how many other citizens will be willing to pay the extra costs involved?

 

They went offshore as the US production costs were too high and US citizens want cheaper prices.

 

The problem for the USA is that Donald Trump has no idea of the damage that he has caused buy tweeting what NE considers to be the policy of the USA. He rarely listens to any advisors or takes notice of them, those who understand the real world and disagree with him are fired.

 

IMHO he truly believes that he is infallable and that those who disagree are wrong.

 

I feel sad for the citizens of the USA who didn't vote for him and have no sympathy for those who did. You reap what you sow, weeds as well, and it will come tumbling down the ears of the USA who will emerge from this wiser, sadder and poorer.

 

 

[lannarebirth]

5 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Really?

 

Ask Boeing about the proposed tarrif on aircraft heavier than 45,000kg, or the soya bean and pig farmers what they think.

 

How many cans of food and drink are consumed in the USA every day and then thrown away?

 

How many manufacturing jobs were transferred offshore to China with the subsequent loss of US jobs by US companies? Apple, Harley Davidson motorbike to name but 2. If they return to the USA and are manufactured by US citizens, how many other citizens will be willing to pay the extra costs involved?

 

They went offshore as the US production costs were too high and US citizens want cheaper prices.

 

The problem for the USA is that Donald Trump has no idea of the damage that he has caused buy tweeting what NE considers to be the policy of the USA. He rarely listens to any advisors or takes notice of them, those who understand the real world and disagree with him are fired.

 

IMHO he truly believes that he is infallable and that those who disagree are wrong.

 

I feel sad for the citizens of the USA who didn't vote for him and have no sympathy for those who did. You reap what you sow, weeds as well, and it will come tumbling down the ears of the USA who will emerge from this wiser, sadder and poorer.

 

 

 

If it is so expensive to produce anything in the US then why is China buying up large swaths of American farmland and meat production industries?

[billd766]

6 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

If it is so expensive to produce anything in the US then why is China buying up large swaths of American farmland and meat production industries?

 

Probably because they can afford to, and they can also import labour legally and produce it cheaper and sell what they don't export to China to the US and make a profit. They don't have to account to shareholders to cut costs and maximise profits.

 

Why is the USA selling the farmland and meat production industries to the Chinese in the first place? Why not sell to other Americans?