Corruption Probes: Ministers Won't Point The Finger

[Jai Dee]

AEC chairman confident panel will receive cooperation from state agencies esp after CNS rids obstacles

The Assets Examination Committee (AEC) chairman Nam Yimyaem (นาม ยิ้มแย้ม) is confident that AEC will be given cooperation from state agencies after the military backed government has promised to put effort in ridding prolonged problems.

The AEC Chairman said that cooperation from state agencies is vital to its investigation work. Mr Nam added that he will seek for affirmation of cooperation from Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont as well.

In addition, AEC has put emphasis on corruption cases, adding that the government will push for the matter to become a national agenda.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 30 January 2007

[Jai Dee]

CNS chairman more confident of punishing corrupted culprits

The Royal Thai Army commander-in-chief and Council for National Security (CNS) chairman, Gen. Sonthi Boonyaratglin, is confident that the CNS will be able to punish the people who were involved with corruption activities in the previous government's projects.

Gen. Sonthi yesterday held a meeting with the government and the Assets Examination Committee (AEC) to find solutions to the problem where certain state departments have refused to accuse the corrupted people from the previous administration.

He said afer the meeting that the government will urge the Ministry of Finance, the Ministry of Agriculture and Cooperatives, and the Ministry of Transport to push for the accusations.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 30 January 2007

[sriracha john]

Just how does a democracy deal with an under-class that effectively makes up the voting majority in a country?

Keep them down, keep them poor, keep them uneducated? Wont work in a democracy.

Which is then to say that Thailand wasn't a democracy at all under Thaksin, because keeping them uneducated was exactly what he did. Whether it was during the time he assigned his own vaunted self to serve concurrently as Education Minister or during any of the plethora of changes to the Education Minister position before and after him, the education system failed miserably during his regime.

Sad the poor bugger cant let go of his Thaksin bashing attitude and move on to discuss a way forward.

On par with the current military imposed government really. They are making such a botch up of things in real time while they are stuck in the past fighting an enemy who isn't there anymore.

You may be blind to the fact that he, through his actions and his mouthpiece and his former associates, are very much here. Are you? Otherwise, how could you miss something so obvious?

The whole crux of this very thread should point all this out to you.

The way forward is to address his past misdeeds in the hopes that they won't be repeated by others in the future. Is that wishful? Perhaps.... what's the alternative?

Succumb to the status quo and say "that's the way it's always been"....or make an attempt to do something about it?

Edited January 30, 2007 by sriracha john

[younghusband]

The painful aspect for the elite was the inevitability of a transfer of resources from the majority to the minority,

Arrr... is that a typo or am I missing some historical point here?

Plus seems to think its a good idea though.

Apologies for the typo but your point gives me a chance to clarify.

I'm not talking about the confiscation or transfer of assets from the elite to the masses.That is just theft which only a totalitarian regime would undertake.Obviously the rich -and that means all the rich - would have to pay their proper share of taxes if they weren't already doing so, but that's just a detail.If in Thailand the power elite foul up catastrophically,socialist totalitarianism is a possibility but in my view a remote one (and extremely undesirable as well, far worse than the current status quo).

What I am suggesting is that in a free society where there is genuine democratically elected representative government, policies will be implemented that benefit the majority rather than concentrating on an elite minority.If this doesn't happen the government will of course be removed from office by the people.This allows an enormous amount of room for divergent policies from the traditionally egalitarian approach of the Scandinavian countries (high tax plus extensive social benefits) to the greater emphasis on wealth creation in the US (lower tax/lower social benefits).No one size fits all and Thailand will have to find a model that suits its stage of economic development and culture.But what cannot survive is the present skewed system concentrating on the "haves" and marginalising the "have nots".

But the bottom line is that if the majority don't approve of the government, it will be kicked out by the people.

Edited January 30, 2007 by younghusband

[Jai Dee]

AEC establishes 2 extra investigation subcommittees

The Asset Examination Committee has decided to establish 2 sub-committees to investigate vital issues.

The spokesperson to the Asset Examination Committee, Mr. Sak Korsangruang (สัก กอแสงเรือง), said that a recent AEC meeting has resulted in the decision to establish 2 sub-committees to prosecute in a case involving the purchase of 90 tons of rubber by the Department of Agriculture, and in a case involving the purchase of Ratchada district property by Khunying Pojamarn Shinawatra. Mr. Banjert Singhkanate (บรรเจิด สิงคะเนติ ) and Mr. Udom Fuangfoo (อุดม เฟื่องฟุ้ง) would each be assigned to head one of the two sub-committees.

Meanwhile the AEC's probe into the purchase of Shincorp stocks by Mr. Banpot Damapong (บรรณพจน์ ดามาพงศ์) is still underway, and documents and evidence pertaining to the investigation are being submitted. A conclusion to the case is expected in early February.

Mr. Sak added that the AEC only has 66% of its working duration left and would therefore resolve all cases in a prompt manner.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 30 January 2007

[blaze]

Just how does a democracy deal with an under-class that effectively makes up the voting majority in a country?

Keep them down, keep them poor, keep them uneducated? Wont work in a democracy.

Which is then to say that Thailand wasn't a democracy at all under Thaksin, because keeping them uneducated was exactly what he did. Whether it was during the time he assigned his own vaunted self to serve concurrently as Education Minister or during any of the plethora of changes to the Education Minister position before and after him, the education system failed miserably during his regime.

Sad the poor bugger cant let go of his Thaksin bashing attitude and move on to discuss a way forward.

On par with the current military imposed government really. They are making such a botch up of things in real time while they are stuck in the past fighting an enemy who isn't there anymore.

You may be blind to the fact that he, through his actions and his mouthpiece and his former associates, are very much here. Are you? Otherwise, how could you miss something so obvious?

The whole crux of this very thread should point all this out to you.

The way forward is to address his past misdeeds in the hopes that they won't be repeated by others in the future. Is that wishful? Perhaps.... what's the alternative?

Succumb to the status quo and say "that's the way it's always been"....or make an attempt to do something about it?

I agree with you John, that corruption by the past regime must be punished. But if the entire raison d'etre of this current regime is to punish Taksin's corruption, then the message learned is: we will not tolerate corrupt Taksins. But as long as you are neither TRT, nor Taksin, nor some kind of 'undercurrent' - well just keep it down to a dull roar- ok?

Which do you think is a more important motivator for the CNS? To rid Thailand of corruption- or to justify its illegal seizure of government? If it's the former, the smart move would be to find some cases (and there must be some) that are going on right now- from within the ranks of the ANTI Taksin politicos. That would send a real message. But if it's the latter, then at all costs, Taksin has to be found guilty. Of something. ANYTHING.

[Old Man River]

There is a whole lot of talk about theoretical changes. Anyone like to put a timetable to it? One to five years, six to ten years, beyond, never?

Plus, you mentioned that Thai society allows people to be upwardly mobile. That is the key point. This is not a society that prohibits upward mobility. Many have bettered themselves this way. None of my wife's family were born in Bangkok. Their parents worked hard and sent them to Bangkok to be educated. Most graduated from either Chula or Thammasart and now provide their kids with more opportunities. The process starts with parents that are willing to sacrifice themselves for their children instead of drowning themselves in lao khao.

[younghusband]

There is a whole lot of talk about theoretical changes. Anyone like to put a timetable to it? One to five years, six to ten years, beyond, never?

Plus, you mentioned that Thai society allows people to be upwardly mobile. That is the key point. This is not a society that prohibits upward mobility. Many have bettered themselves this way. None of my wife's family were born in Bangkok. Their parents worked hard and sent them to Bangkok to be educated. Most graduated from either Chula or Thammasart and now provide their kids with more opportunities. The process starts with parents that are willing to sacrifice themselves for their children instead of drowning themselves in lao khao.

It's impossible to put a timetable on change anywhere let alone Thailand.

On your second paragraph I'm afraid you are just plain wrong.Thailand is not a society which sees that much upward mobility, although of course there are many exceptions.However you cannot argue the general from the particular, and the reality is that with its semi feudal class structure and poor education system, only the relatively few move from the positions their parents held.This is not a situation with which the powerful few are uncomfortable with but don't get me going on the self sufficiency side.

On your personal example you don't say what social class your wife's family comes from.Nobody suggests parental support and encouragement isn't crucial but it isn't always enough for the most disadavantaged.Your, if I may so, rather silly comment about lao khao probably reflects the tendency of lower middle class arrivistes to look down on a class even lower than themselves.It was ever thus.

[Plus]

I think Oldmanriver is spot on - Thai society does not prohibit upward mobility. It might not be as easy as elsewhere but it works, in a Thai sort of way. Individuals have far less opportunites, for example.

Patronage culture means there is a trickling down effect, usually in the form of providing jobs and business opportunities. Thais progress not individually but in groups. You might hate the clans, but each one is just the top of huge pyramid that provides thousands of families related to it. It's also a social net - you'll always have a job or a business.

Things are far more liberal in Bangkok, and maybe that's an indication of how ordinary, out of the loop, Thais will cope with social disparities - they put pressure on the rich to be fair in their business practices, they don't want to redistribute someone else's wealth.

[Old Man River]

Your, if I may so, rather silly comment about lao khao probably reflects the tendency of lower middle class arrivistes to look down on a class even lower than themselves.It was ever thus.

Your comments re lower middle class etc. does point out a main stumbling block Thailand faces. Thailand is a class oriented society and this type of thinking needs to be changed to where people understand that all men were created equal.

As for the status of my wife's family prior to coming to Bangkok, you are correct that they have never been farmers. Perhaps it relates to their Thai Chinese heritage, but they never let coming from a small city get in their way to better themselves in Bangkok. The ability for Thai's to better their socio economic status exists and the issue is changing the mind sets that create artificial barriers.

[Plus]

Thailand is a class oriented society and this type of thinking needs to be changed to where people understand that all men were created equal.

That's the western dogma which Thais might not believe at all, with their laws of karma etc. Besides, people who started preaching equality had no problems with having slaves, for example.

"And no one was poor, or at least no one worth talking about" - description of the goden age of galaxy.

Perhaps it could be modified to "all men should have equal opportunities", and maybe include women, too.

[younghusband]

Your, if I may so, rather silly comment about lao khao probably reflects the tendency of lower middle class arrivistes to look down on a class even lower than themselves.It was ever thus.

Your comments re lower middle class etc. does point out a main stumbling block Thailand faces. Thailand is a class oriented society and this type of thinking needs to be changed to where people understand that all men were created equal.

As for the status of my wife's family prior to coming to Bangkok, you are correct that they have never been farmers. Perhaps it relates to their Thai Chinese heritage, but they never let coming from a small city get in their way to better themselves in Bangkok. The ability for Thai's to better their socio economic status exists and the issue is changing the mind sets that create artificial barriers.

I agree the sentiment in your first paragraph.It's impossible to eradicate class prejudice altogether because by definition class cannot be eradicated.But it needs to be considerably reduced.On your aspiration Thais need to understand better that all men are created equal, we can all presumably agree on happily.

To be honest I had guessed from the "lao khao" comment that your wife's family origins were small town, lower middle class, Chinese trading.It's a very stereotypical way of looking at "Thai ter" that many urban Chinese share.The role of the Sino Thai in the Thailand class structure is a whole new subject, for another thread perhaps.

[Old Man River]

To be honest I had guessed from the "lao khao" comment that your wife's family origins were small town, lower middle class, Chinese trading.It's a very stereotypical way of looking at "Thai ter" that many urban Chinese share.The role of the Sino Thai in the Thailand class structure is a whole new subject, for another thread perhaps.

The comments were mine, not my wife's. Perhaps they have hit home for you. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.

[younghusband]

To be honest I had guessed from the "lao khao" comment that your wife's family origins were small town, lower middle class, Chinese trading.It's a very stereotypical way of looking at "Thai ter" that many urban Chinese share.The role of the Sino Thai in the Thailand class structure is a whole new subject, for another thread perhaps.

The comments were mine, not my wife's. Perhaps they have hit home for you. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.

Not in the slightest bit offended.(Why on earth should I be?)I have been hearing similar comments from lower middle class Sino Thais for over 30 years, ie about the feckless,drink sodden rural Thais.There's also the proverbial grain of truth in it as well!

[Old Man River]

To be honest I had guessed from the "lao khao" comment that your wife's family origins were small town, lower middle class, Chinese trading.It's a very stereotypical way of looking at "Thai ter" that many urban Chinese share.The role of the Sino Thai in the Thailand class structure is a whole new subject, for another thread perhaps.

The comments were mine, not my wife's. Perhaps they have hit home for you. Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you.

Not in the slightest bit offended.(Why on earth should I be?)I have been hearing similar comments from lower middle class Sino Thais for over 30 years, ie about the feckless,drink sodden rural Thais.There's also the proverbial grain of truth in it as well!

[Old Man River]

Younghusband (I think not so young anymore), I would be interested in your comments (in another thread) on the Thai Chinese in Thailand, given that many have been successful in this country despite starting as poor traders.

[ColPyat]

Have you ever seen Giles Ungpakorn of Thai Socialist Workers party mentioned in this forum? That's the kind of socialists who actively look for rural votes now, reportedly. Some of them might succeed.

You woldn't let any other man courting your wife or husband. You probably know yourself very well how effectively sweet talk works. "Oh he/she doesn't really care about you, you don't fullfil your potential with him/her. He/she doesn't deserve you. I promise. Bla bla bla." You wouldn't give anyone a chance to sweettalk your partner out of your life, there's no democracy there.

<snip>

I'm not surprised that Giles in under surveylance now.

Even the current regime recognizes, as you do, that the inequalities in Thailand must be addressed. And education? Be careful what you/we wish for. An educated underclass would not tolerate this kind of income gap- they haven't in other countries and they won't here. And if there is not a right wing movement to deny democracy in this country, I'd be very surprised. Because given the numbers, and a truly democratic system of government, it's just a matter of time...

So far education has led to prosperity in Thailand, not to revolution. Look at those who broke out of poverty and reached middle class levels - they form they popular support base for the coup! Educated people are not DENIED their fair chance in life in Thailand. They strive to improve the system, not to destroy it, like socialists.

Your comments about Giles Ungkaporn are completely off the mark.

Comparing his ideas of introducing a welfare state in Thailand with Mao's Great Leap Forward, or Pol Pot's extreme nationalist form of communism reminds me of the McCarthy witch hunts.

<snip>

He is a university professor who has founded his party (which, as far as i know, has not even yet been registered, has a few hundred members) more as a symbolic action than with the genuine believe that he can be more than on the fringes in the Thai political landscape. He is mainly occupied within the academia and different symposiums.

The problem here again is, that you spread extremist and strangely dogmatic views on topics that you obviously only have a very superficial knowledge about, and neither know any of the people involved in person, and extrapolate then from the resulting fallacies into the irrational.

Many countries in the world have very active socialist or communist parties in their democracies. They are not a danger to the system, as the elites in those systems have long given up what you admire as "the relationship between Thai farmers and Bangkok elite" (which is also rather incorrect, as you generalise a complex class system here). Most of these parties have long learned from the mistakes of totalitarian regimes operating under the mantle of socialism or communism, and do not question the existing democracies, though many of the policies and issues, and therefore do serve a vital function.

The inequalities though, the status quo you so desperately defend here is what leads to a feared extremist revolution, and not the existence of left wing intellectuals such as Giles Ungkaporn, who does work within the system and has no aspirations whatsoever to become a Thai version of Guzman.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Jai Dee
References to Thai monarchy deleted

[ando]

Just how does a democracy deal with an under-class that effectively makes up the voting majority in a country?

Keep them down, keep them poor, keep them uneducated? Wont work in a democracy.

Which is then to say that Thailand wasn't a democracy at all under Thaksin, because keeping them uneducated was exactly what he did. Whether it was during the time he assigned his own vaunted self to serve concurrently as Education Minister or during any of the plethora of changes to the Education Minister position before and after him, the education system failed miserably during his regime.

Sad the poor bugger cant let go of his Thaksin bashing attitude and move on to discuss a way forward.

On par with the current military imposed government really. They are making such a botch up of things in real time while they are stuck in the past fighting an enemy who isn't there anymore.

You may be blind to the fact that he, through his actions and his mouthpiece and his former associates, are very much here. Are you? Otherwise, how could you miss something so obvious?

The whole crux of this very thread should point all this out to you.

The way forward is to address his past misdeeds in the hopes that they won't be repeated by others in the future. Is that wishful? Perhaps.... what's the alternative?

Succumb to the status quo and say "that's the way it's always been"....or make an attempt to do something about it?

I am afraid it will take more than a few political show trials to root out endemic corruption in Thailand.

Right now the legal push to punish the old regime seems to be bogged down in legal technicalities and lack of evidence. In the final outcome, even when a few heads do roll, it will have little effect on the root cause and the cycle of corruption will continue again with new players.

It is pointless to attack individuals without addressing the root cause. Otherwise, in another few years we will have another coup to straighten things out again. 17 coups in the past 60 years should indicate to someone that there is a problem with the system rather than just the individuals within the system. South Africa should be taken as an example for Thailand. South Africans didnt go out on a witch hunt when the minority white apartheid government was ousted. They attacked the root cause rather than the individuals involved in the cause at the time.

The military have once again set themselves up as the ultimate judge and jury over Thailand's democracy. The new constitution which is being drafted under non-democratic, military rule is unlikely to be adverse to military intervention yet again at a later date. One would have to say that the ultimate insult to true democracy is when the minority take over government through force of arms via the military. To endorse this cycle of democracy, corruption and military coups as a means to an ends is a real folly. It merely perpetuates the problem rather than addressing the root cause.

Thailand has a real problem with democracy. The majority of voters are the poor underclass, mainly in the country. For a culture where there has always been a ruling wealthy elite, that is a real threat to their power and way of life.

Thaksin, for all his faults (and corrupt activities normally expected of the ruling class), played the political game in a democratic fashion to gain power. It wouldn't matter weather TRT bought votes in individual communities for 100 or 500 baht. The fact is that Thaksins TRT would easily win the popular vote in a democratic society.

Therein lies the dilemma for the ruling class elite and their military led government of the day.

It remains to be seen if the military power brokers of the day can get the "democratically" elected government they want through absolute control of the media, martial law in selected provinces, prosecution of previous officials, a new constitution, and of course endorsement by the monarch.

I think somewhere down the line some smart politician will realize the way to secure power in a true democracy is simply to give the majority of voters a fair deal. I don't think the Thai elite are prepared to let go of the old political, social and economic power structure just yet. So there will probably be a few more constitutions, coups, and elections before Thailand finally gets round to being a truly democratic system.

[Plus]

Your comments about Giles Ungkaporn are completely off the mark.

Comparing his ideas of introducing a welfare state in Thailand with Mao's Great Leap Forward, or Pol Pot's extreme nationalist form of communism reminds me of the McCarthy witch hunts.

<snip>

He is a university professor who has founded his party (which, as far as i know, has not even yet been registered, has a few hundred members) more as a symbolic action than with the genuine believe that he can be more than on the fringes in the Thai political landscape. He is mainly occupied within the academia and different symposiums.

I don't know, this is what YOU posted not long time ago:

"...note that now for the first time these intellectuals have managed to start building a bridge over the class gap between them and the rural and urban poor (which, given the numbers, are Thai mainstream society), leaving the pro junta middle classes as the odd ones out.

Names such as Ajarn Jai Ungpakorn are nowadays often mentioned with high respect by members of poorer classes. Well, if you care to speak with them about politics.

Just judging from the relatively small attendence of the demonstrations to the level of support of the junta by the population is a fallacy."

I do hope that Giles doesn't share your open disdain for Thai elites, but there are others.

Many countries in the world have very active socialist or communist parties in their democracies. They are not a danger to the system, as the elites in those systems have long given up what you admire as "the relationship between Thai farmers and Bangkok elite"

There you said it - elites in Thailand have not given up and have no intention of doing so, and they won't allow any confrontation between farmers and elite to develop. "Educate the masters" is the best solution, IMO.

[blaze]

The reference to Guzman is scarily appropriate. This is a worst case scenario - but not an impossible one by any stretch. Interesting reading the Citibank study quoted in the Nation that urban Thais are not strongly committed to democracy. But rural Thais are. This path could shine if serious attempts at inclusion are not forthcoming.

[ColPyat]

I don't know, this is what YOU posted not long time ago:

"...note that now for the first time these intellectuals have managed to start building a bridge over the class gap between them and the rural and urban poor (which, given the numbers, are Thai mainstream society), leaving the pro junta middle classes as the odd ones out.

Names such as Ajarn Jai Ungpakorn are nowadays often mentioned with high respect by members of poorer classes. Well, if you care to speak with them about politics.

Just judging from the relatively small attendence of the demonstrations to the level of support of the junta by the population is a fallacy."

I do hope that Giles doesn't share your open disdain for Thai elites, but there are others.

There you said it - elites in Thailand have not given up and have no intention of doing so, and they won't allow any confrontation between farmers and elite to develop. "Educate the masters" is the best solution, IMO.

You are going here a bit on a stretch to prove your paranoid fanatsies.

The respect shown is not because the non-existant aspirations for some sort of a revoltion, but because intellectuals such as Jai Ungpakorn do adress issues that are improtant to them.

<snip>

Where then are your "leftist" intellectuals you are so convinced that they exist, the ones who try to violently overthrow the system by indoctrination of the masses? Can you name some?

If not, then please stop throwing slanderous and baseless accusations around.

Educate the masters?

Well, Sherlock, that is exactly what intellectuals and professors so despised by you do - they teach in universities the next generation of democratoc political leadership in Thailand.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Jai Dee
References to Thai monarchy deleted

[Plus]

You are going here a bit on a stretch to prove your paranoid fanatsies.

I was quoting your own posts.

Insulting me again and again does not add anything to the discussion but there's a limit on the amount of unwarranted abuse I can tolerate. You seems to have lost all sense of civility.

that is exactly what intellectuals and professors so despised by you do - they teach in universities the next generation of democratoc political leadership in Thailand.

What do they teach them? Socialism?

I do NOT despise them, btw. Even in the academic community they are in the minority.

[blaze]

" Even in the academic community they (socialists) are in the minority."

Is that true? I don't know. Often though, leftists in political science departments are not in the minority. Perhaps in Thailand... I hope you are not basing this solely on the politics of the academics selected to be interviewed and quoted in the Post and the Nation-

Edited January 30, 2007 by blaze

[ColPyat]

Insulting me again and again does not add anything to the discussion but there's a limit on the amount of unwarranted abuse I can tolerate. You seems to have lost all sense of civility.

Neither are your constant slanderous and outlandish accusations against intellectuals you neither know, nor appearantly have read much of their work, and definately have not understood what you have read. Do you think it is civil to accuse people such as Giles Ungpakorn of hatching plans to overthrow the monarchy? Can you bring any statement of him that supports your ridiculous fabulations? Evidence? Proof?

Stop insulting friends of mine, and i will stop insulting you. You do with these accusations not just insult them, you do slander them. Which is also in Thailand is a criminal offense, by the way.

Edited January 30, 2007 by ColPyat

[Tony Clifton]

Stop insulting friends of mine, and i will stop insulting you. You do with these accusations not just insult them, you do slander them. Which is also in Thailand is a criminal offense, by the way.

You threatening him now?

What's next, the usual TRT tactic, a lawsuit?

Edited January 30, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[sriracha john]

It's a good thing Thaksin's not a friend of his, too.... It would literally close down the Thailand News Clipping Forum.

[hammered]

Any chance of getting this back on topic before another once interesting thread gets shut down?

[Plus]

Not every Thai "lefty" intends to overthrow the monarchy, and never did I say that it's Giles intention either. Maybe not all anti-monarchists are lefties, too.

What is worrying is that there might be some who will try to exploit a gap left by removal of Thaksin to gain trust of the less educated members of Thai society and use this trust to further their own agendas and challenge the establishment, be they capitalists or socialists, or even anti-monarchists.

Any challenge to the establishment would lead to a disaster for the country.

"Educate the masters" doesn't mean "get their children while their young to our side, and wait until the old guard retires". The second approach is not inherently evil, it's just not the same.

[ColPyat]

Any challenge to the establishment would lead to a disaster for the country.

Desasters such as democracy, equal opportunities, fair distribution of wealth and power, a proper welfare system?

Yeah , that would be horrible - average Thais could enjoy similar standards of life such as the average westerner.

[Jai Dee]

Any chance of getting this back on topic before another once interesting thread gets shut down?

Agreed.

Settle down please people... and take your personal attacks elsewhere.