Corruption Probes: Ministers Won't Point The Finger

[Jai Dee]

Finance Minister files charges against issue of two-three digit lotteries

Finance Minister Chalongphob Susangkarn (ฉลองภพ สุสังกร์กาญจน์) filed charges against two-three digit lotteries and forwarded the case to the Asset Examination Committee (AEC).

Mr. Chalongphob today met with AEC Subcommittee concerning two-three digit lottery case, chaired by Udom Feung-fung (อุดม เฟื่องฟุ้ง). He said the previous documents submitted to AEC Subcommittee contain enough details for the case.

However, he considered this meeting a good opportunity for AEC to see if the organization needs further information.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 19 April 2007

[Jai Dee]

Finance Minister to submit complaint on lotteries to AEC tomorrow

Finance Minister Chalongphob Sussangkarn appeared before the Asset Examination Committee (AEC) to explain the problem of filing a complaint against members of the previous government for allegedly illegally issuing two- and three-digit lotteries. The minister said the meeting with the AEC was amiable and he will submit a new complaint tomorrow (Apr 20).

This morning, Mr. Chalongphob joined the AEC meeting chaired by AEC member Udom Fuangfung. Prior to the meeting, Mr. Chalongphob said he did not bring in the new complaint because he believed the previous complaint was already complete. Moreover, he said he did not receive any response from the AEC. Nevertheless, he said this meeting will help clarify the problems and he would know what issues are still needed in the document.

Meanwhile, AEC Chairman Nam Yimyaem believes the Finance Ministry does not have any intention to delay the filing of the complaint, but there could be problems that the ministry has to deal with.

The meeting between the Finance Minister and the AEC took only 15 minutes. Mr. Chalongphob says the meeting discussed the details that must be included in the complaint, and the Finance Ministry will revise and resend it to the committee tomorrow.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 19 April 2007

[Old Man River]

Finance Minister files charges against issue of two-three digit lotteries

Ok, I get it that these lotteries may have been illegally set up and proceeds mis-appropriated, but why discontinue them altogether? This government desperately needs the tax revenue and it puts people to work. Why not fix the problems and continue them?

[marshbags]

Good News and Progress Number (1)

The Nation Fri, April 20, 2007 : Last updated 0:10 am (Thai local time)

Quote:-

SUVARNABHUMI AIRPORT

New bids for duty-free shops

AOT board says it wants 2-3 firms at Suvarnabhumi instead of just King Power

The Airports of Thailand board called yesterday for a fresh round of bidding for the duty-free concession at Suvarnabhumi Airport, signalling a final end to its contract with current operator King Power International.

AOT directors also resolved to have all retail tenants at the terminal strike new leases with AOT individually, after the previous board meeting terminated the commercial-area management concession for King Power.

Chirmsak Pinthong, an independent director and spokesman for AOT, said the board preferred to have two or three companies manage the airport's duty-free shops.

"We want to have more than one operator, to prevent a monopoly," he explained.

King Power International could still participate in the new bidding.

The board earlier terminated King Power's two concessions on the grounds that they were improper, after the Council of State ruled King Power had intentionally skirted the Public-Private Joint Venture Act.

Although the value of the contracts was well over Bt1 billion - the level requiring stricter screening - King Power was alleged to have brought the value down, which meant only the board's approval was needed for its winning bid.

King Power insists it followed all regulations and had asked the previous AOT board whether the contracts must conform to the Joint Venture Act.

The previous board, chaired by Srisook Chandrangsu, had said that since the total value of the contracts was lower than Bt1 billion, they were not required by law to be reviewed.

Despite the board's decision, AOT has yet to notify the firm officially of its decision. King Power has said it has not received any official notice on the terminations so far.

Chirmsak said yesterday's board resolution would not proceed until King Power receives the official notice. "Now, the prosecutors are preparing the notice," he said.

King Power might seek an Administrative Court injunction against the cancellation of the concessions, but AOT believed it would win the case, because the decision was made legally under the full authority of the board, he said.

AOT would also review the revenue-sharing formula for the concessions. King Power might have to pay extra if the formula was changed, because AOT was yet to receive any revenues, estimated at Bt4 billion.

"How much the benefits from the new contracts should be will have to be recalculated," Chirmsak said.

The board's move was aimed at creating fair competition for investors, ensuring convenience for passengers, providing acceptable prices at the airport, returning reasonable revenues to AOT and safeguarding AOT's reputation, he said.

Watcharapong Thongrung

Unquote.

Please go to the following url for reference:-

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/20/hea...es_30032267.php

This is a very positive move and is in the interest of all who use the airport, the abuse of their contracts and authority gleaned from it, within the airport, not only cut out competition but more importantly it infringed on " PASSENGER SAFETY "

marshbags

Edited April 20, 2007 by marshbags

[marshbags]

Good News number ( 2 )

Fri, April 20, 2007 : Last updated 0:10 am (Thai local time)

Quote:-

ASSETS PROBES

Surayud supports extension for AEC

PM agrees to give graft-busters more time to complete their investigations

Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont agreed with a proposal to extend the Assets Examination Committee (AEC)'s term if its inquiries into alleged corruption by the deposed administration were not completed, AEC chief Nam Yimyaem said yesterday.

Nam said he had called for the government to agree to extend the AEC's term during a meeting with Surayud and leaders of other national bodies. Currently the probe teams are due to finish their work in September.

The graft-busters had numerous cases pending, and should have more time to wrap up their investigations, he said.

"The prime minister has agreed with the proposal," Nam said.

National Legislative Assembly Speaker Meechai Ruchuphan said the meeting had discussed if the AEC's term should be extended and concluded that this was a possibility. The issue of extending the AEC's term has been debated by academics, politicians and the graft-busters themselves.

Those who support the claim say the AEC needs more time to complete pending cases as some state agencies had failed to co-operate or provide evidence against the previous government of Thaksin Shinawatra.

However, some opponents have said that one year is enough for the AEC to rule on all 14 graft cases involving the ousted government - and that the National Counter Corruption Commission (NCCC) could handle any crimes found in the months ahead.

NCCC chairman Panthep Klanarongran said the meeting concluded that the AEC's term should end when the interim government finishes - and an elected government assumes power. Then, the AEC would pass pending cases to the NCCC, he added.

Constitution Drafting Assembly (CDA) chairman Noranit Sethabutr said he had promised Surayud the CDA would complete the new charter as scheduled, for early July, before the nation votes on it in a national referendum.

Budsarakham Sinlapalavan

Hassaya Chartmontri

Unquote.

This was a forgone conclusion and the obvious outcome when you take all the stalling and lack of co operation into account.

For obvious reasons and self implication of course, IMHO

marshbags

Edited April 20, 2007 by marshbags

[LaoPo]

The ever-amused Former Thaksin Cabinet Minister of Transportation Suriya Jungrungreangkit

Former Permanent Secretary of Ministry of Justice and Thaksin brother-in-law Somchai Wongsawat (center) along with his ever-so-lovely wife, the Former Thai Rak Thai MP from Chiang Mai and Thaksin sister Yaowapa Wongsawat (right), with Former Thaksin Cabinet Minister of Justice Pongthep Thepkarnchana (left)

Don't tell me SJ, you aren't jealous of those "ever-so" high-so people, especially the Honourable Lady on the right; does your wife know about this ?

Question:

I have to be honest to say that I can't follow all those lawsuits anymore.

Has anyone have any idea HOW MANY LAWSUITS there are on the Judges desks ?

(They better ask the CNS some extra money to start building new prisons )

I lost track.

LaoPo

[sriracha john]

The ever-amused Former Thaksin Cabinet Minister of Transportation Suriya Jungrungreangkit

Former Permanent Secretary of Ministry of Justice and Thaksin brother-in-law Somchai Wongsawat (center) along with his ever-so-lovely wife, the Former Thai Rak Thai MP from Chiang Mai and Thaksin sister Yaowapa Wongsawat (right), with Former Thaksin Cabinet Minister of Justice Pongthep Thepkarnchana (left)

Don't tell me SJ, you aren't jealous of those "ever-so" high-so people, especially the Honourable Lady on the right; does your wife know about this ?

Question:

I have to be honest to say that I can't follow all those lawsuits anymore.

Has anyone have any idea HOW MANY LAWSUITS there are on the Judges desks ?

(They better ask the CNS some extra money to start building new prisons )

I lost track.

LaoPo

Yaowapa is hot.... that oil-barrel torso of hers is such a turn-on ....

It's difficult to chose her or Potjaman (who seems to favor using Cameron Diaz's "special hair gel" from the movie, There's Something About Mary), for the Sexiest Woman In Thailand title:

Edited April 20, 2007 by sriracha john

[Old Man River]

Question:

I have to be honest to say that I can't follow all those lawsuits anymore.

Has anyone have any idea HOW MANY LAWSUITS there are on the Judges desks ?

I lost track.

LaoPo[/color]

I also have lost track of all the lawsuits. However, I can't think of any that have a ghost of a chance that would actually put Thaksin in jail. Pay more taxes, yes, but jail time, no.

[hammered]

Question:

I have to be honest to say that I can't follow all those lawsuits anymore.

Has anyone have any idea HOW MANY LAWSUITS there are on the Judges desks ?

I lost track.

LaoPo[/color]

I also have lost track of all the lawsuits. However, I can't think of any that have a ghost of a chance that would actually put Thaksin in jail. Pay more taxes, yes, but jail time, no.

Does anyone seriously think those that run the country are going to start putting each other in jail? I cant see it. A bit of tax and probably some ban from politics will be about it and powerbrokers probably know this.

[Old Man River]

Question:

I have to be honest to say that I can't follow all those lawsuits anymore.

Has anyone have any idea HOW MANY LAWSUITS there are on the Judges desks ?

I lost track.

LaoPo[/color]

I also have lost track of all the lawsuits. However, I can't think of any that have a ghost of a chance that would actually put Thaksin in jail. Pay more taxes, yes, but jail time, no.

Does anyone seriously think those that run the country are going to start putting each other in jail? I cant see it. A bit of tax and probably some ban from politics will be about it and powerbrokers probably know this.

Yes, many seriously thought that the CNS would put the evildoers (i.e. Thaksin) in jail. The primary reason for the coup may have been something else, but the coup was sold to the populace as necessary to reconcile the nation, with the ASC as the medium to accomplish this. By not being able to legally jail Thaksin, he is now gone, but not forgotten and while he will be banned from politics for 5 years, he will be not be gone and constantly will be on people's minds.

This is the dilemna the CNS now faces and is the reason the military will remain in the immediate background regardless of future elections.

[hammered]

Question:

I have to be honest to say that I can't follow all those lawsuits anymore.

Has anyone have any idea HOW MANY LAWSUITS there are on the Judges desks ?

I lost track.

LaoPo[/color]

I also have lost track of all the lawsuits. However, I can't think of any that have a ghost of a chance that would actually put Thaksin in jail. Pay more taxes, yes, but jail time, no.

Does anyone seriously think those that run the country are going to start putting each other in jail? I cant see it. A bit of tax and probably some ban from politics will be about it and powerbrokers probably know this.

Yes, many seriously thought that the CNS would put the evildoers (i.e. Thaksin) in jail. The primary reason for the coup may have been something else, but the coup was sold to the populace as necessary to reconcile the nation, with the ASC as the medium to accomplish this. By not being able to legally jail Thaksin, he is now gone, but not forgotten and while he will be banned from politics for 5 years, he will be not be gone and constantly will be on people's minds.

This is the dilemna the CNS now faces and is the reason the military will remain in the immediate background regardless of future elections.

With the exception of one previous member of the elite who killed another many years ago I dont think any major politiciain has been sent to jail in Thailand. Personally I cant see it starting now there is toomuch of a risk of later revenge.

I agree that the military will still be in the background for a long time to come if they can maintain their power and unity.

[Jai Dee]

High tendency to extend time for AEC

Prime Minister’s Office Minister, Mr. Prasit Kovilaikul (ประสิทธิ์ โฆวิไลกูล), believes there is high possibility to extend time for the Assets Examination Committee (AEC).

Mr. Prasit is studying the 30th announcement of the Council for National Security (CNS) about the period of AEC before proposing the matter to the National Legislative Assembly (NLA) for consideration. He says many agencies have the same view that the time of AEC should be extended, and Justice Minister as the ministry responsible the matter will hold a hearing from other relevant agencies.

As for the objection of President of the National Counter Corruption Commission (NCCC), he says AEC time should not be extended, and tasks of AEC should be transferred to NCCC.

Source: Thai National News Bureau Public Relations Department - 20 April 2007

[Tony Clifton]

I am also beginning to have doubts about seeing the CNS take real heavy handed actions with all these cases going on (rumours of Thaksin making secret deals, etc.), but, then again, it may also be due to the lenght of the process, who knows...

[blaze]

I am also beginning to have doubts about seeing the CNS take real heavy handed actions with all these cases going on (rumours of Thaksin making secret deals, etc.), but, then again, it may also be due to the lenght of the process, who knows...

Or could it be that his whole thing has been Thailand's WMD. Its Starr Report. Its Dreyfuss Affair. And a lot of people just got sucked in. Possible?

[LaoPo]

I am also beginning to have doubts about seeing the CNS take real heavy handed actions with all these cases going on (rumours of Thaksin making secret deals, etc.), but, then again, it may also be due to the lenght of the process, who knows...

Yes.

History learned us that Thai politicians and Generals are real Masters in:

CONSENSUS

" Consensus decision-making is a decision-making process that not only seeks the agreement of most participants, but also to resolve or mitigate the objections of the minority to achieve the most agreeable decision. Consensus is usually defined as meaning both general agreement, and the process of getting to such agreement. Consensus decision-making is thus concerned primarily with that process. "

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making

I also doubt very much if this or the next 'government'/CNS will, in the end, have the courage to put Thaksin in prison. It would create enormous unrest amongst the people of Thailand and no government, now or in the future, even if it's backed by the military, would like to challenge the 'people'....

Whatever we, as Farang, might think of Thaksin, we shouldn't forget he has still a broad support in the country, both by the people and 'streams' in the military even with most of T's fellow 'classmates' now in minor positions.

There is an undercurrent which shouldn't be underestimated.

LaoPo

[blaze]

I am also beginning to have doubts about seeing the CNS take real heavy handed actions with all these cases going on (rumours of Thaksin making secret deals, etc.), but, then again, it may also be due to the lenght of the process, who knows...

Yes.

History learned us that Thai politicians and Generals are real Masters in:

CONSENSUS

" Consensus decision-making is a decision-making process that not only seeks the agreement of most participants, but also to resolve or mitigate the objections of the minority to achieve the most agreeable decision. Consensus is usually defined as meaning both general agreement, and the process of getting to such agreement. Consensus decision-making is thus concerned primarily with that process. "

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_decision-making

I also doubt very much if this or the next 'government'/CNS will, in the end, have the courage to put Thaksin in prison. It would create enormous unrest amongst the people of Thailand and no government, now or in the future, even if it's backed by the military, would like to challenge the 'people'....

Whatever we, as Farang, might think of Thaksin, we shouldn't forget he has still a broad support in the country, both by the people and 'streams' in the military even with most of T's fellow 'classmates' now in minor positions.

There is an undercurrent which shouldn't be underestimated.

LaoPo

They don't need to put him in prison. All they need to do is convict him of an offense. If they DON'T convict him- or if the courts don't convict him- then the main reason for the coup is gone. And as that fact becomes clear to the public and the world, the Thai army will have suffered the worst blow to its credibility in a long time. The PAD knows this- they know that their reputations- and histories interpretation of their role in all this demands a conviction.

The courts on the other hand, are aware that when the deposed PM of a country (ok- acting PM) is tried, the countries reputation hangs to some extent on the fairness of the proceedings.

All the courts need is the evidence that much of the media has months ago weighed and found sufficient- that the PAD claimed to have - where is it?

When Ms. Jaruvan stated that corruption under the TRT was the worst in Thai history- she must have had evidence- where is it?

I'm not saying it's not there. But the notion of the army wanting to cut a deal- with characters like Saprong baying for blood and hinting that another coup won't be so accomodating- I don't think so.

I remember poor Gen. Sonti's frustration shortly after the coup when he realized that the evidence was much more obscure than he had expected. That guy's got a lot riding on a conviction.

[hammered]

The elite doesnt imprison the elite. It cuts deals. Always has. Mr. T (and he and especially his wife's family are very elite) is no different from previous deposed PMs like this. Bits of the previous government will be convicted of a few things. It is unlikely any will be jailed unless they lead a failed insurrection. There will be fines, tax stuff and some TRT execs will no doubt get a politcal ban, which will probably end up being backdated to a year ago or something on appeal. That way the Junta get their justification. The court system looks to have functioned internationally, and no doubt quite a few spurious cases will be tossed dure to lack of evidence. That looks more even handed. The previous government guys will moan a little but they have kids and families to carry on the business of ensuring their interests are not greatly disturbed. Thats the way it goes if it follows the normal pattern. It is not only you cannot punish because of fear of reprisal later, it is also in none of those involved's interests to see the lid blown off of the political corruption industry of Thailand, so somewhere a deal will be done. Sorry to be so pesimistic. Of course if there is violence it gets more complicated.

[blaze]

The elite doesnt imprison the elite. It cuts deals. Always has. Mr. T (and he and especially his wife's family are very elite) is no different from previous deposed PMs like this. Bits of the previous government will be convicted of a few things. It is unlikely any will be jailed unless they lead a failed insurrection. There will be fines, tax stuff and some TRT execs will no doubt get a politcal ban, which will probably end up being backdated to a year ago or something on appeal. That way the Junta get their justification. The court system looks to have functioned internationally, and no doubt quite a few spurious cases will be tossed dure to lack of evidence. That looks more even handed. The previous government guys will moan a little but they have kids and families to carry on the business of ensuring their interests are not greatly disturbed. Thats the way it goes if it follows the normal pattern. It is not only you cannot punish because of fear of reprisal later, it is also in none of those involved's interests to see the lid blown off of the political corruption industry of Thailand, so somewhere a deal will be done. Sorry to be so pesimistic. Of course if there is violence it gets more complicated.

I think that there is a diffence between rich and elite. Thaksin was rich. Elite? He was a parvenue as the old european aristocracies would have labled him- an new comer. And his family, in the big picture were insignificant.

In the scenario you describe the result will be that both the PAD and the army will look a bit foolish- if not blatantly criminal. It's not enough.

The charges have to be serious enough to warrant the armed overthrow of the government. A couple of tax evasion charges? A bit of financial jiggerypokery? In THAILAND? That's the worst thing that they could stick him with?- that's why they overthrew a fledgling democracy? Tore up a constitution in a country where corruption of the kind you describe is practically the norm? They have to do better.

Either they match the magnitude of the crime to the magnitude of the solution (coup d'etat and tearing up of the constitution) - or they are going to look like opportunistic tin pot dictators at their worst. Even by Thai standards.

And I suspect they (or at the very least Saprong and the PAD) know that.

Hammered, I'll bet you that right now, if there's anybody that Gen Sonthi would like to see behind bars- it's Sondhi.

Edited April 20, 2007 by blaze

[marshbags]

Breaking news April 21, 2007 : Last updated 06:20 pm (Thai local time)

Quote:-

Law proposed to seize illegal assets overseas

The Justice Ministry will propose for the Cabinet's consideration in mid May a draft legislation to retrieve assets overseas that have been illegally been obtained through corruption.

Deputy Permanent Secretary of Justice Tongthong Chandransu said Friday that Thailand is going to ratify the United Nations Convention against Corruption, therefore it had to survey Thai laws so see if there were any loopholes.

Tongthong said the ministry had planned to propose a draft legislation of the retrieval of assets in any country obtained from corruption, and a Criminal Law article 87 amendment to have the statue of limitations scrapped in case the defendant fled.

They also planned to amend the laws related to bribery made to foreign officials who came in contact with the Thai government to have the same punishment as bribery made to Thai officials.

The Nation

Unquote.

Please go to the following url for the news item:-

http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30032293

This could create an interesting scenario for lots of Thai,s now living abroad out of the arm of the law locally and especially for the square faced one and his coherts.

marshbags

P.S.

What happened to the bbc guy Jalichandra who was in the headlines yesterday ?

Did he ever serve any time out of his allotted jail sentence as i do not recall any follow up on this issue.

The article i will quote for reference:-

Another jail term for Krirk-kiat Jalichandra

Krirk-kiat Jalichandra, former president of defunct Bangkok Bank of Commerce (BBC), was sentenced to a 20-year imprisonment and also held responsible for the penalties of Bt1.16 billion as well as the compensations of Bt598 million to BBC.

The Criminal Court Thursday ruled that the compensations and the repayments are to be born by Krirk-kiat and two accomplices who also receive the 20-year imprisonment each, for the charged embezzlement of Bt1.23 billion from the bank through a transaction between BBC and Development Finance & Investment.

Earlier, Krirk-kiat was sentenced by the Criminal Court Ratchada and Southern Bangkok Criminal Court for the imprisonment of 70 years for 5 felonies. He has launched the appeal against the sentence.

The Nation

Unquote.

Reference url:- http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30032191

Edited April 21, 2007 by marshbags

[Jai Dee]

End of assets committee will leave cases hanging

The National Counter-Corruption Commission (NCCC) will not be able to complete some of the work that will be left unfinished by the Assets Examination Committee (AEC) if its term is not extended, AEC spokesman Sak Korsaengruang warned yesterday.

The AEC's term will expire in September and its unfinished cases are to be transferred to the NCCC. However, the NCCC is not authorised to investigate tax-related cases and can probe only government officers, not private companies, Sak said.

He said it was up to the government and the National Legislative Assembly (NLA) to consider extending the AEC's term, but the committee would do its best anyway.

PM's Office Minister Prasith Kowilaikul said the Cabinet would discuss whether to extend the AEC's term until the end of the current government's term and propose the issue to the NLA within 30 days.

Extending the AEC's term beyond the current government's term might upset the next government, he said.

He said the Justice Ministry would be mainly in charge of the issue, but many agencies should take part.

The AEC is preparing to indict people who allegedly illegally issued two- and three-digit lottery tickets after the Finance Ministry had filed a complaint, AEC member Udom Fuangfung said yesterday.

Udom, head of the fact-finding panel investigating the case, said the complaint, signed by Finance Minister Chalongphob Sussangkarn, was "completed" and named the alleged wrongdoers.

The AEC is expected to meet on Monday to appoint an investigation committee, Udom said.

The ministry filed the complaint to the AEC on March 30 as the injured party in the ousted government's unlawful decision to sell the new lottery tickets.

Under corruption law, the complaint paves the way for the AEC to proceed to the indictment stage as part of preparations for prosecution.

Banjerd Singkaneti, head of the subcommittee investigating irregularities in the last government's rubber-sapling project, said the subcommittee could not finish its report this week but would meet again next week.

Source: The Nation - 21 April 2007

[Old Man River]

Question:

I have to be honest to say that I can't follow all those lawsuits anymore.

Has anyone have any idea HOW MANY LAWSUITS there are on the Judges desks ?

I lost track.

LaoPo[/color]

I also have lost track of all the lawsuits. However, I can't think of any that have a ghost of a chance that would actually put Thaksin in jail. Pay more taxes, yes, but jail time, no.

Does anyone seriously think those that run the country are going to start putting each other in jail? I cant see it. A bit of tax and probably some ban from politics will be about it and powerbrokers probably know this.

Yes, many seriously thought that the CNS would put the evildoers (i.e. Thaksin) in jail. The primary reason for the coup may have been something else, but the coup was sold to the populace as necessary to reconcile the nation, with the ASC as the medium to accomplish this. By not being able to legally jail Thaksin, he is now gone, but not forgotten and while he will be banned from politics for 5 years, he will be not be gone and constantly will be on people's minds.

This is the dilemna the CNS now faces and is the reason the military will remain in the immediate background regardless of future elections.

With the exception of one previous member of the elite who killed another many years ago I dont think any major politiciain has been sent to jail in Thailand. Personally I cant see it starting now there is toomuch of a risk of later revenge.

I agree that the military will still be in the background for a long time to come if they can maintain their power and unity.

While ordinarily I would agree with your comments in a half a second, times are not ordinary. Are not the EC Commissioners still in jail? Did you ever think you would see a former Governor of Bangkok/Bangkok Senate elect member be given 2 years for crimes relating to comments made? Thaksin wants to come home and he has a passport. If he didn't think he would be immediately incarcerated, why doesn't he fly into Bangkok? Times aren't ordinary.

[hammered]

Question:

I have to be honest to say that I can't follow all those lawsuits anymore.

Has anyone have any idea HOW MANY LAWSUITS there are on the Judges desks ?

I lost track.

LaoPo[/color]

I also have lost track of all the lawsuits. However, I can't think of any that have a ghost of a chance that would actually put Thaksin in jail. Pay more taxes, yes, but jail time, no.

Does anyone seriously think those that run the country are going to start putting each other in jail? I cant see it. A bit of tax and probably some ban from politics will be about it and powerbrokers probably know this.

Yes, many seriously thought that the CNS would put the evildoers (i.e. Thaksin) in jail. The primary reason for the coup may have been something else, but the coup was sold to the populace as necessary to reconcile the nation, with the ASC as the medium to accomplish this. By not being able to legally jail Thaksin, he is now gone, but not forgotten and while he will be banned from politics for 5 years, he will be not be gone and constantly will be on people's minds.

This is the dilemna the CNS now faces and is the reason the military will remain in the immediate background regardless of future elections.

With the exception of one previous member of the elite who killed another many years ago I dont think any major politiciain has been sent to jail in Thailand. Personally I cant see it starting now there is toomuch of a risk of later revenge.

I agree that the military will still be in the background for a long time to come if they can maintain their power and unity.

While ordinarily I would agree with your comments in a half a second, times are not ordinary. Are not the EC Commissioners still in jail? Did you ever think you would see a former Governor of Bangkok/Bangkok Senate elect member be given 2 years for crimes relating to comments made? Thaksin wants to come home and he has a passport. If he didn't think he would be immediately incarcerated, why doesn't he fly into Bangkok? Times aren't ordinary.

You could be right. I cant claim to know more than the next person.

Actually I think the EC got released aftera few days and Thai news reported Samak is on bail pending an appeal. You do have a good point about Thaksin flying into Bangkok. There were actually reports last year that he was due to fly into Chiang Mai to be met by an army general supporter who would have provided protection but cancelled it at the last moment fearing "for his safety". Unless Mr. Thaksin is invited home by the government with some assurances it is unlikely he will return now.

[hammered]

The elite doesnt imprison the elite. It cuts deals. Always has. Mr. T (and he and especially his wife's family are very elite) is no different from previous deposed PMs like this. Bits of the previous government will be convicted of a few things. It is unlikely any will be jailed unless they lead a failed insurrection. There will be fines, tax stuff and some TRT execs will no doubt get a politcal ban, which will probably end up being backdated to a year ago or something on appeal. That way the Junta get their justification. The court system looks to have functioned internationally, and no doubt quite a few spurious cases will be tossed dure to lack of evidence. That looks more even handed. The previous government guys will moan a little but they have kids and families to carry on the business of ensuring their interests are not greatly disturbed. Thats the way it goes if it follows the normal pattern. It is not only you cannot punish because of fear of reprisal later, it is also in none of those involved's interests to see the lid blown off of the political corruption industry of Thailand, so somewhere a deal will be done. Sorry to be so pesimistic. Of course if there is violence it gets more complicated.

I think that there is a diffence between rich and elite. Thaksin was rich. Elite? He was a parvenue as the old european aristocracies would have labled him- an new comer. And his family, in the big picture were insignificant.

In the scenario you describe the result will be that both the PAD and the army will look a bit foolish- if not blatantly criminal. It's not enough.

The charges have to be serious enough to warrant the armed overthrow of the government. A couple of tax evasion charges? A bit of financial jiggerypokery? In THAILAND? That's the worst thing that they could stick him with?- that's why they overthrew a fledgling democracy? Tore up a constitution in a country where corruption of the kind you describe is practically the norm? They have to do better.

Either they match the magnitude of the crime to the magnitude of the solution (coup d'etat and tearing up of the constitution) - or they are going to look like opportunistic tin pot dictators at their worst. Even by Thai standards.

And I suspect they (or at the very least Saprong and the PAD) know that.

Hammered, I'll bet you that right now, if there's anybody that Gen Sonthi would like to see behind bars- it's Sondhi.

I would think there is little love lost between Sonthi and Sondhi!

The convictions that justifies the coup in international eyes are the ones related to rigging an election and of course our old friend corruption. May 30 will be an interesting day if at least some of the party executives of TRT go down on that the penalty will only be bans but fixing an election is not something the western world theoretically takes lightly (turning a blind eye to some shenanigans in Florida and an attempted coup in Venezuela etc). However, that would justify the coup internationally. Of course it will look even better if the same happens to the main opposition party but that is not needed to justify the coup. Now if no party executives go down on these charges it gets harder for the Junta because then at least one or two corruption charges have to be proved. This is difficult when those that could give evidence may incriminate themselves or be scared of later retribution by those they testify against. My guess is May 30 will be a watershed for how this will go.

By the way the family that Mr. T married into is definitely part of the elite even if he didnt come from it.

[blaze]

The elite doesnt imprison the elite. It cuts deals. Always has. Mr. T (and he and especially his wife's family are very elite) is no different from previous deposed PMs like this. Bits of the previous government will be convicted of a few things. It is unlikely any will be jailed unless they lead a failed insurrection. There will be fines, tax stuff and some TRT execs will no doubt get a politcal ban, which will probably end up being backdated to a year ago or something on appeal. That way the Junta get their justification. The court system looks to have functioned internationally, and no doubt quite a few spurious cases will be tossed dure to lack of evidence. That looks more even handed. The previous government guys will moan a little but they have kids and families to carry on the business of ensuring their interests are not greatly disturbed. Thats the way it goes if it follows the normal pattern. It is not only you cannot punish because of fear of reprisal later, it is also in none of those involved's interests to see the lid blown off of the political corruption industry of Thailand, so somewhere a deal will be done. Sorry to be so pesimistic. Of course if there is violence it gets more complicated.

I think that there is a diffence between rich and elite. Thaksin was rich. Elite? He was a parvenue as the old european aristocracies would have labled him- an new comer. And his family, in the big picture were insignificant.

In the scenario you describe the result will be that both the PAD and the army will look a bit foolish- if not blatantly criminal. It's not enough.

The charges have to be serious enough to warrant the armed overthrow of the government. A couple of tax evasion charges? A bit of financial jiggerypokery? In THAILAND? That's the worst thing that they could stick him with?- that's why they overthrew a fledgling democracy? Tore up a constitution in a country where corruption of the kind you describe is practically the norm? They have to do better.

Either they match the magnitude of the crime to the magnitude of the solution (coup d'etat and tearing up of the constitution) - or they are going to look like opportunistic tin pot dictators at their worst. Even by Thai standards.

And I suspect they (or at the very least Saprong and the PAD) know that.

Hammered, I'll bet you that right now, if there's anybody that Gen Sonthi would like to see behind bars- it's Sondhi.

I would think there is little love lost between Sonthi and Sondhi!

The convictions that justifies the coup in international eyes are the ones related to rigging an election and of course our old friend corruption. May 30 will be an interesting day if at least some of the party executives of TRT go down on that the penalty will only be bans but fixing an election is not something the western world theoretically takes lightly (turning a blind eye to some shenanigans in Florida and an attempted coup in Venezuela etc). However, that would justify the coup internationally. Of course it will look even better if the same happens to the main opposition party but that is not needed to justify the coup. Now if no party executives go down on these charges it gets harder for the Junta because then at least one or two corruption charges have to be proved. This is difficult when those that could give evidence may incriminate themselves or be scared of later retribution by those they testify against. My guess is May 30 will be a watershed for how this will go.

By the way the family that Mr. T married into is definitely part of the elite even if he didnt come from it.

Not sure Hammered- the recent Mexican elections were as rigged as previous ones- EC people caught on tape taking bribes as I recall- though my memory is not good- and the west would never have seen that as warranting the Mexican army taking over the state.

The west pretty much (smugly and perhaps wrongly) expects a certain amount of electoral shenanigans in 'developing countries'. (I can recall in my lifetime when votes could and frequently were exchanged for a bottle of rot-gut rye- and that was in Canada). But the west - or those who paid attention- also knew that the majority of the population supported Thaksin. That's the bottom line.

I heard something interesting the other night: In George Washington's final speech he passionately warned of the danger to democracy of a standing army. For the more passionate devotees of democracy- military=good. government=good. But mixed together= bad. So in the eyes of many (and not just the States- perhaps Europe even moreso after its experience with military govts) I suspect that the electoral fraud- unless it can be shown to have altered who would have actually won the election- won't be enough.

[hammered]

The elite doesnt imprison the elite. It cuts deals. Always has. Mr. T (and he and especially his wife's family are very elite) is no different from previous deposed PMs like this. Bits of the previous government will be convicted of a few things. It is unlikely any will be jailed unless they lead a failed insurrection. There will be fines, tax stuff and some TRT execs will no doubt get a politcal ban, which will probably end up being backdated to a year ago or something on appeal. That way the Junta get their justification. The court system looks to have functioned internationally, and no doubt quite a few spurious cases will be tossed dure to lack of evidence. That looks more even handed. The previous government guys will moan a little but they have kids and families to carry on the business of ensuring their interests are not greatly disturbed. Thats the way it goes if it follows the normal pattern. It is not only you cannot punish because of fear of reprisal later, it is also in none of those involved's interests to see the lid blown off of the political corruption industry of Thailand, so somewhere a deal will be done. Sorry to be so pesimistic. Of course if there is violence it gets more complicated.

I think that there is a diffence between rich and elite. Thaksin was rich. Elite? He was a parvenue as the old european aristocracies would have labled him- an new comer. And his family, in the big picture were insignificant.

In the scenario you describe the result will be that both the PAD and the army will look a bit foolish- if not blatantly criminal. It's not enough.

The charges have to be serious enough to warrant the armed overthrow of the government. A couple of tax evasion charges? A bit of financial jiggerypokery? In THAILAND? That's the worst thing that they could stick him with?- that's why they overthrew a fledgling democracy? Tore up a constitution in a country where corruption of the kind you describe is practically the norm? They have to do better.

Either they match the magnitude of the crime to the magnitude of the solution (coup d'etat and tearing up of the constitution) - or they are going to look like opportunistic tin pot dictators at their worst. Even by Thai standards.

And I suspect they (or at the very least Saprong and the PAD) know that.

Hammered, I'll bet you that right now, if there's anybody that Gen Sonthi would like to see behind bars- it's Sondhi.

I would think there is little love lost between Sonthi and Sondhi!

The convictions that justifies the coup in international eyes are the ones related to rigging an election and of course our old friend corruption. May 30 will be an interesting day if at least some of the party executives of TRT go down on that the penalty will only be bans but fixing an election is not something the western world theoretically takes lightly (turning a blind eye to some shenanigans in Florida and an attempted coup in Venezuela etc). However, that would justify the coup internationally. Of course it will look even better if the same happens to the main opposition party but that is not needed to justify the coup. Now if no party executives go down on these charges it gets harder for the Junta because then at least one or two corruption charges have to be proved. This is difficult when those that could give evidence may incriminate themselves or be scared of later retribution by those they testify against. My guess is May 30 will be a watershed for how this will go.

By the way the family that Mr. T married into is definitely part of the elite even if he didnt come from it.

Not sure Hammered- the recent Mexican elections were as rigged as previous ones- EC people caught on tape taking bribes as I recall- though my memory is not good- and the west would never have seen that as warranting the Mexican army taking over the state.

The west pretty much (smugly and perhaps wrongly) expects a certain amount of electoral shenanigans in 'developing countries'. (I can recall in my lifetime when votes could and frequently were exchanged for a bottle of rot-gut rye- and that was in Canada). But the west - or those who paid attention- also knew that the majority of the population supported Thaksin. That's the bottom line.

I heard something interesting the other night: In George Washington's final speech he passionately warned of the danger to democracy of a standing army. For the more passionate devotees of democracy- military=good. government=good. But mixed together= bad. So in the eyes of many (and not just the States- perhaps Europe even moreso after its experience with military govts) I suspect that the electoral fraud- unless it can be shown to have altered who would have actually won the election- won't be enough.

But remember the West doesnt really care who got the most votes per se they just want their man in power. Your Mexico example is a good one, and the Mexican leader has the backing of the army. To the west Thailand is a small place but one they want to do business with and invest in to make money. Whatever has happened up to now becomes unimportant. The west is morer pragmatic than idealistic. The overriding desire of the west is to get back to business. They are just looking for an excuse to drop any minor sanctions currently on Thailand. Any form of election will do. The west will not lose sleep over what happens to Mr. T and any justification of a coup will be acceptable as long as an election of some sort comes around at some time. Then it is back to business. There will be a new democratic goevrnment for western govs and companies to start talking to. Thailand is neither big enough or close enough to the west for them to have any worry over which candidate runs the show. The western governments have not really said much at all on Thailand's politcal situation from the the end of 1995 to now.

Now on the other hand if the country descends into chaos, which is still a possibility, that would be another matter in terms of a return to business as usual. all imho.

[marshbags]

Just to get back onto Thailands corrupt practices

( Not meant to undermine the interesting comparisons of other countries in anyway )

The Nation Sun, April 22, 2007 : Last updated 8:58 am (Thai local time)

Quote :-

WATCHDOG

Draft charter closes loopholes for graft, conflict of interest

Dr Sombat Thamrongthanya-wong, a member of the National Legislative Assembly and president of the National Institute of Development Administration (NIDA), told me the other day that the just-released first draft of the new constitution appears to be better than the 1997 version on at least two key points.

First, the new charter, which will be voted on in a referendum in September after the final draft is endorsed by the Constitution Drafting Assembly, will be more effective in preventing abuse of public office for undue private benefit, if the first draft is any indication.

Second, the new charter will make it much more difficult for politicians in high office to interfere with the appointment of members of key independent bodies designed to serve as check-and-balance mechanisms on executive power.

According to Dr Komson Potikong, one of the 35 charter-writers, five articles of the first draft of the new 2007 charter - from Article 256 to Article 260 - are devoted to plugging the loopholes previously exploited by public-office holders. In short, the charter will explicitly state that the prime minister, Cabinet members, MPs and senators are required to transfer their assets to trustees as designated by law prior to taking office, so that their private interests are clearly separate from those of the public.

The National Counter Corruption Commission will be responsible for enforcing the letter of the law on this requirement.

Komson noted that the 1997 charter touched on this crucial matter only briefly. There was also an exemption clause regarding existing concession contracts, resulting in controversial cases of policy corruption and abuse of public office that led to the September 19 coup that ousted Thaksin Shinawatra. The build-up to the coup began when the former premier's family sold their majority stake in Shin Corp to Temasek Group of Singapore in a Bt73-billion tax-free transaction in January last year.

Having read the first draft of the new charter, Sombat of NIDA said the charter loopholes that enabled the policy corruption and conflicts of public and private interest under the previous government had apparently been closed because the letter of the law on these issues was specific.

On the appointment of members of key independent bodies such as the Constitution Court and the Election Commission, both of which were embroiled in controversy during the last days of the Thaksin regime, Sombat said the new charter would give the judiciary the lead role in nominating candidates to sit on such bodies.

According to the first draft of the 2007 charter, all Supreme Court judges (whose total number is less than 100) will convene to select three of their judges to be candidates for the Constitution Court, while Supreme Administrative Court judges will also convene to select two of their number as candidates for the same court.

Then the Supreme Court and Supreme Administrative Court will each nominate another two candidates, making a total of nine candidates to sit on the Constitution Court.

The list of all nine candidates will then go to the Senate for final approval. The Senate can only accept or reject the entire list of candidates. Under the 1997 charter, the 200-member Senate was more powerful, as it was empowered to hand-pick candidates, resulting in widespread lobbying and alleged corruption.

Similar selection and nomination criteria will be used to appoint members of the Election Commission and other crucial independent bodies.

The first draft of the 2007 charter also does away with an elected Senate, since it was evident that most of the senators elected under the 1997 charter came from the same power and voter base as the members of Parliament, resulting in the inability of the majority of these senators to serve as a check and balance on the Lower House.

According to the proposed new charter, there will be only 320 constituency MPs and 80 appointed senators. Under the 1997 charter, there were 400 constituency MPs plus 100 party-list MPs and 200 elected senators.

In Sombat's opinion, the proposed new charter is fine and the majority of people will likely vote for it later this year.

Nophakhun Limsamarnphun

Unquote.

For reference the following url can be used:-

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/22/opi...on_30032373.php

marshbags

Edited April 22, 2007 by marshbags

[blaze]

Just to get back onto Thailands corrupt practices

( Not meant to undermine the interesting comparisons of other countries in anyway )

The Nation Sun, April 22, 2007 : Last updated 8:58 am (Thai local time)

Quote :-

WATCHDOG

Draft charter closes loopholes for graft, conflict of interest

Dr Sombat Thamrongthanya-wong, a member of the National Legislative Assembly and president of the National Institute of Development Administration (NIDA), told me the other day that the just-released first draft of the new constitution appears to be better than the 1997 version on at least two key points.

First, the new charter, which will be voted on in a referendum in September after the final draft is endorsed by the Constitution Drafting Assembly, will be more effective in preventing abuse of public office for undue private benefit, if the first draft is any indication.

Second, the new charter will make it much more difficult for politicians in high office to interfere with the appointment of members of key independent bodies designed to serve as check-and-balance mechanisms on executive power.

According to Dr Komson Potikong, one of the 35 charter-writers, five articles of the first draft of the new 2007 charter - from Article 256 to Article 260 - are devoted to plugging the loopholes previously exploited by public-office holders. In short, the charter will explicitly state that the prime minister, Cabinet members, MPs and senators are required to transfer their assets to trustees as designated by law prior to taking office, so that their private interests are clearly separate from those of the public.

The National Counter Corruption Commission will be responsible for enforcing the letter of the law on this requirement.

Komson noted that the 1997 charter touched on this crucial matter only briefly. There was also an exemption clause regarding existing concession contracts, resulting in controversial cases of policy corruption and abuse of public office that led to the September 19 coup that ousted Thaksin Shinawatra. The build-up to the coup began when the former premier's family sold their majority stake in Shin Corp to Temasek Group of Singapore in a Bt73-billion tax-free transaction in January last year.

Having read the first draft of the new charter, Sombat of NIDA said the charter loopholes that enabled the policy corruption and conflicts of public and private interest under the previous government had apparently been closed because the letter of the law on these issues was specific.

On the appointment of members of key independent bodies such as the Constitution Court and the Election Commission, both of which were embroiled in controversy during the last days of the Thaksin regime, Sombat said the new charter would give the judiciary the lead role in nominating candidates to sit on such bodies.

According to the first draft of the 2007 charter, all Supreme Court judges (whose total number is less than 100) will convene to select three of their judges to be candidates for the Constitution Court, while Supreme Administrative Court judges will also convene to select two of their number as candidates for the same court.

Then the Supreme Court and Supreme Administrative Court will each nominate another two candidates, making a total of nine candidates to sit on the Constitution Court.

The list of all nine candidates will then go to the Senate for final approval. The Senate can only accept or reject the entire list of candidates. Under the 1997 charter, the 200-member Senate was more powerful, as it was empowered to hand-pick candidates, resulting in widespread lobbying and alleged corruption.

Similar selection and nomination criteria will be used to appoint members of the Election Commission and other crucial independent bodies.

The first draft of the 2007 charter also does away with an elected Senate, since it was evident that most of the senators elected under the 1997 charter came from the same power and voter base as the members of Parliament, resulting in the inability of the majority of these senators to serve as a check and balance on the Lower House.

According to the proposed new charter, there will be only 320 constituency MPs and 80 appointed senators. Under the 1997 charter, there were 400 constituency MPs plus 100 party-list MPs and 200 elected senators.

In Sombat's opinion, the proposed new charter is fine and the majority of people will likely vote for it later this year.

Nophakhun Limsamarnphun

Unquote.

For reference the following url can be used:-

http://nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/22/opi...on_30032373.php

marshbags

And for a somewhat less rosy analysis, see-

"Charter Pelted By Criticism"

http://bangkokpost.com/News/22Apr2007_news03.php

Edited April 22, 2007 by blaze

[marshbags]

Thanks for the reference Blaze

Just read it and reckon there is much debate and disagreement ahead before some sort of conclusion is reached on the new constitution, especially with all that is now being discovered on a daily basis regarding abuse and manipulation of the last one.

Healthy, yet opposing opinions can only be good so long as they serve a positive outcome on Thailands future.

IMHO of course.

marshbags

Edited April 22, 2007 by marshbags

[blaze]

Thanks for the reference Blaze

Just read it and reckon there is much debate and disagreement ahead before some sort of conclusion is reached on the new constitution, especially with all that is now being discovered on a daily basis regarding abuse and manipulation of the last one.

Healthy, yet opposing opinions can only be good so long as they serve a positive outcome on Thailands future.

IMHO of course.

marshbags

And on that we agree 100% marshbags! Enjoy your Sunday.

[John K]

Thanks for the reference Blaze

Just read it and reckon there is much debate and disagreement ahead before some sort of conclusion is reached on the new constitution, especially with all that is now being discovered on a daily basis regarding abuse and manipulation of the last one.

Healthy, yet opposing opinions can only be good so long as they serve a positive outcome on Thailands future.

IMHO of course.

marshbags

And on that we agree 100% marshbags! Enjoy your Sunday.

Sounds like talking to the sheep to me. I think we should develop our own opinion if we have the ability to understand what is there. No doubt there will be spin or should I say spin spin on this.