Solar power - Can a home sell back (or get a credit) to PEA now? (May 2018)

[TravelerEastWest]

Solar power - Can we sell back (or get a credit) to PEA now? (May 2018)

 

I am confused - currently planning a solar home backup for PEA power around 3KW for lights and misc use but not AC.

 

I have been told that currently there are no residential programs to sell back to PEA and that it is not allowed to have your meter run backwards.

 

Is that true or is it legal and easy to have excess solar power go to PEA either for money or for a reduction in monthly charges?

 

If OK to have my meter go backwards is only up to my useage? What happensd if I rodice more than I use?

 

Many thanks for advice!

 

Note I have searched and found only old threads and vague news from the newspapers etc...

 

 

[Crossy]

The feed in (sell back) tariff was/is called My Solar Roof. Very poorly advertised and restricted timescale for joining, whether you still can I don't know.

 

PEA certainly did permit net-metering (meter going backwards) provided you had your system installed in line with their requirements, what you "export" simply offsets your bill no extra payment for over-exporting mind.

 

Best bet is to talk to your local office, most of them are very helpful once you get past the front desk and talk to the engineering staff, you'll need to visit anyway to get a list of the necessary paperwork.

 

[Muhendis]

Like Crossy said. 

 

I was also chatting with my local top engineer a few months back and he told me the payback rate is 7 Baht/KWh which is more than the govt. subsidised rate to the consumer.

[sharpjwe]

you must make a contract to PEA 

they must approve the contract

you sell the full amount of your power at the contractual rate 

you pay for your power from PEA in full

 

i think you are not allowed to use your own power 

[Crossy]

5 minutes ago, sharpjwe said:

you must make a contract to PEA 

they must approve the contract

you sell the full amount of your power at the contractual rate 

you pay for your power from PEA in full

 

i think you are not allowed to use your own power 

I don't think you MUST join the My Solar Roof thingy, there are many, many approved systems, including some owned by members that are net-metering (regular meter going backwards when exporting).

 

The feed-in tariff is quite generous (IIRC 7 Baht per unit), but it's for a long period (25 years?) and it's unlikely that they will increase the feed-in rate as the base rate for power rises, once you get past 7 Baht base rate you are then paying PEA to give them power. Not a good situation.

 

That said, the paperwork is still a major pain, heavily stacked against anyone trying DIY, even with approved kit.

 

[zib]

I know of a few people in Rawai, including myself, which just let the meter run backwards. I've never gone negative when its time for PEA to make the bill but a friend has. Then they just wrote 0 usage on the bill and he had to pay the minimum fee.

[Muhendis]

Personally I wouldn't want to get involved with any of this. There is little protection for the small supplier meaning that PEA et. al. can probably do as they wish in terms of modifying the contract but the small supplier would be hard pressed to have any changes made in his favour. Running the meter backwards is fine just so long as your equipment (grid tie inverter) is up to the task with appropriate fail safes and, in case of problems, is also on the approved list.

 

By the way, I have an off grid installation and also a temporary/construction utility supply which I never use. It was put in when my house was built eight years ago. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Crossy said:

That said, the paperwork is still a major pain, heavily stacked against anyone trying DIY, even with approved kit.

I don't know, but I assume there is a genuine fear of leaking electricity back to the grid, when grid is down for some reason. 

 

That would put the maintenance workers in danger if they assume that there is no electricity on wires, when the main power sources are down. 

 

Another thing is to make sure that the solar power providers are able to sync perfectly with the grid frequency and voltage. If there is more device vendors coming to the markets, this might become an issue as there will always be the one official, who'll give Approved stamp easily with a bit of money. 

 

 

[Crossy]

3 minutes ago, oilinki said:

I don't know, but I assume there is a genuine fear of leaking electricity back to the grid, when grid is down for some reason. 

Yes, back-feeding is a significant risk, which is why all approved inverters have island-protection, grid goes down (or drifts significantly off-frequency) inverter stops feeding it.

 

I'm not aware of any domestic level grid-tie inverters that don't have island-protection, it's so fundamental.

[Fruit Trader]

People using Grid Tie Inverters should be aware that most of the meter readers devices for printing your bill will flag low usage though its mostly used to detect meter tampering.

 

Here is a video showing authorities getting in a twist over solar systems and explaining why you should report your solar system to them if its connected to the grid. Sorry its in Thai and the usual blurb .

 

[peterpop]

When I asked a solar panel supplier in Chiang Mai I was told there was a ''Quota'' that had all been bought by a single person in Lampang.  Thai style no doubt.

[TravelerEastWest]

Interesting responses - many thanks.

 

Strange that I was told that the old Chiang mai rate was around 6 point  something baht with a contract and that the contract is not currently available.

 

Two locals who have solar with a contract told me this.

 

Now if I can legally run my meter backwards to zero that is great.

 

Tomorrow I will give PEA a call to see what their current plans are.

[Muhendis]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

Yes, back-feeding is a significant risk, which is why all approved inverters have island-protection, grid goes down (or drifts significantly off-frequency) inverter stops feeding it.

 

I'm not aware of any domestic level grid-tie inverters that don't have island-protection, it's so fundamental.

fundamental? 

Absolutely. Like so many good things in life.....

[Crossy]

9 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Tomorrow I will give PEA a call to see what their current plans are.

Please report back what you find, it may be better to visit the office if it's close, the phone can be an awfully effective barrier to communication.

[TravelerEastWest]

Update per PEA engineer:

 

Currently illegal to run a meter backwards.

 

No program available today.

 

In August (if on schedule...) a new program will start - details are not yet available. the name may be "Solar Hero"

 

So i will start my install and plan for being compatable later.

 

Not a big issue for me as I will likely use all my power.

[Crossy]

16 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Update per PEA engineer:

Thanks for that, typical really, government pushing for alternatives, then making it difficult for your average Somchai to comply.

 

Of course, that's one PEA office. YMMV.

[TravelerEastWest]

I am in Chiang mai maybe a large Bangkok PEA office will be more up to date?

[Crossy]

2 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I am in Chiang mai maybe a large Bangkok PEA office will be more up to date?

Possibly, the problem is that it's your local office that issues the necessary documentation.

 

It may be worth biting the bullet and talking to a contractor to do your installation, make sure that any agreement states that they will obtain any and all permissions from PEA.

[Muhendis]

8 hours ago, Crossy said:

Thanks for that, typical really, government pushing for alternatives, then making it difficult for your average Somchai to comply.

 

Of course, that's one PEA office. YMMV.

I believe there is a conflict of interests inasmuch the government has a controlling interest in PEA, so PEA revenues disappear into government coffers so to speak. There is probably a reluctance to reduce that income let along actually pay the consumer for their home produced power. If PEA were to be privatised then the government would not be so reluctant to encourage grid tie.

[MrDetUdom]

This topic is a bit old, but I just talked to a solar installer in Ubon Ratchathani. He basically said:

1) It is illegal to run the meter backwards. However, the meter will quite happily run backwards and the PEA won't notice or take any action unless you start going negative.

2) Which means you have to disconnect your solar system if you are going away for an extended period.

3) Officially, you are supposed to inform the PEA. They will have a structural engineer go look at your roof and an electrical engineer check all of the wiring before you can hook up. This costs money. It also means you are on their radar to check for your meter going backwards.

 

The upshot of all this, the installer recommended getting a system slightly smaller than your regular monthly usage, and then just install it without telling the PEA. Disconnect the solar from the grid when your away.

 

The 1.5kW system we looked at was 70,000 THB, plus 7500 THB for installation without informing PEA, or 12000 THB with informing PEA, but there seemed to be room for negotiating. Anyone got any feedback on whether this price is high or low, or if this kind of system is even worth it?

[Fruit Trader]

1 hour ago, MrDetUdom said:

This topic is a bit old, but I just talked to a solar installer in Ubon Ratchathani. He basically said:

1) It is illegal to run the meter backwards. However, the meter will quite happily run backwards and the PEA won't notice or take any action unless you start going negative.

2) Which means you have to disconnect your solar system if you are going away for an extended period.

3) Officially, you are supposed to inform the PEA. They will have a structural engineer go look at your roof and an electrical engineer check all of the wiring before you can hook up. This costs money. It also means you are on their radar to check for your meter going backwards.

 

The upshot of all this, the installer recommended getting a system slightly smaller than your regular monthly usage, and then just install it without telling the PEA. Disconnect the solar from the grid when your away.

 

The 1.5kW system we looked at was 70,000 THB, plus 7500 THB for installation without informing PEA, or 12000 THB with informing PEA, but there seemed to be room for negotiating. Anyone got any feedback on whether this price is high or low, or if this kind of system is even worth it?

Note. Most meter readers hand held input devices flag unusual low usage negative or not. How the authority use this flag varies between areas.

 

Make the property look like a solar farm or get over enthusiastic with the grid tie subsidy and there's a risk that you will activate the local supply authority Drama Lama.

 

Just be careful when choosing how much capacity is required for a system that cant legally sell or dump back to the grid. Sometimes its best to go well below the radar and be satisfied with a little subsidy and a system that has a fair shot at paying for itself.  

[bankruatsteve]

A 1.5KW solar system can generate what?  80% of that over what? an 8 hour period during a day.  I don't think you have to worry about turning the meter backwards if you have anywhere close to normal load.

[Fruit Trader]

54 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

A 1.5KW solar system can generate what?  80% of that over what? an 8 hour period during a day.  I don't think you have to worry about turning the meter backwards if you have anywhere close to normal load.

Whats a normal load? Who defined the normal load? If I slapped 1kw on the house supply right now the meter would go backwards. 

[bankruatsteve]

12 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

Whats a normal load? Who defined the normal load? If I slapped 1kw on the house supply right now the meter would go backwards. 

Point taken.  I used 525 KWH last month and thinking that might be below "normal" for a farang house.  So, that's where I was coming from.  If your power usage is that low, then maybe consider a transfer switch where you're using solar OR the grid.  Not convenient for sure but that should save a bundle in grid hook-up equipment/fees/etc.  Just a thought.

[Fruit Trader]

12 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

Point taken.  I used 525 KWH last month and thinking that might be below "normal" for a farang house.  So, that's where I was coming from.  If your power usage is that low, then maybe consider a transfer switch where you're using solar OR the grid.  Not convenient for sure but that should save a bundle in grid hook-up equipment/fees/etc.  Just a thought.

You really have got to watch the meter when using illegal grid tie. Our meter reader makes sneaky return trips and would sound an alarm for sure if he found a reading in the negative or a meter going backwards.

[bankruatsteve]

23 minutes ago, Fruit Trader said:

You really have got to watch the meter when using illegal grid tie. Our meter reader makes sneaky return trips and would sound an alarm for sure if he found a reading in the negative or a meter going backwards.

So you already have a grid tie?  I've never seen this issue from others on TV that have it.  Are you a sneaky guy that needs to be watched?  (just kidding)

[Fruit Trader]

15 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

So you already have a grid tie?  I've never seen this issue from others on TV that have it.  Are you a sneaky guy that needs to be watched?  (just kidding)

Have nearby family with small illegal grid tie and a farmer next door who juggles his meter cables.

I go out late at night with can and short pipe .. kidding

 

[digbeth]

Last time I looked a couple of years back they had a program with opening for limited time/slots per year that you can join, and the deal breaker was that only 'approved' equipment must be used and maintainance/replacement must be approved and you're 'locked in' for the 3-5 year contract effectively means you can't repair/upgrade/improve your system down to the battery.

[MrDetUdom]

2 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

A 1.5KW solar system can generate what?  80% of that over what? an 8 hour period during a day.  I don't think you have to worry about turning the meter backwards if you have anywhere close to normal load.

Sure, we average consumption way more than 1.5 kW. But its not constant. On days when we are not at home, the only thing on is the fridge. So during those periods the meter will run backwards. It is a big issue in terms of pay-back period when you look at it as an investment. With only a 1.5kW solar system, we would never have to turn the solar off, so pay back in maybe 5 to 6 years. Our usage varies from around 300 kWh during winter (which we do get in our part of Thailand) up to 1100 kWh last month. With the next step up (3.0 kW solar system), there is a risk of the monthly usage going near zero during the winter months. So then we'd have to turn it off, and the payback period blows out, and the risk of getting caught if you forget to turn it off also blows out.

 

I also imagine there is some risk if the meter reader happens to come by when we're not at home and everything is turned off. Then he would get to see the meter spinning backwards in front of his eyes.

 

But in terms of cost, not getting a battery and simply using the grid as a battery saves a huge amount of money. Without that, it simply would not be worth it. In winter when we don't need aircon, our usage is highly peaky. We have an 8 kW hot water system and electric stove at around 1kW per hot plate. If the solar was only turned on for those, but then could not spin the meter backwards in between, it would be basically useless.

[sammydavis]

so if it is illegal to run the meter backwards uou are saying the bloke that said he is is talking shit?