Passport switching in the air - be aware.

[stevenl]

15 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Plenty threads on TV where border runners are reminded that flipping passports when making a land border exit/re-entry to Thailand isn't possible (since both IO's on both sides of the border want to see the other IO's stamps) whereas the IO's at airports don't check for stamps (but some ask to see the boarding pass).

<snip>

It's a side issue, but nearly all those threads are about passports from 2 different countries, 1 of those quite often Thai. People choosing passports from the same country for entering Thailand is not very common.

 

So it is a side issue, but has consequences for the options to enter for you, with only one passport having the extension + re-entry permit.

Edited May 15, 2018 by stevenl

[007 RED]

3 hours ago, mcvisa said:

 

I'm sure this is within the realms of current technology globally, however it doesn't collerate with most peoples experiencing passing through major Thai airports regularly. If such was the case, where the information was presented within seconds, you wouldn't get the page flicking, and nung, song, sam, counting for those long termers on exemptions or Toursit Visa. I do believe they can link, possibly at the supervisors office, but I don't think this is enabled on a scan at normal kioaks,  I can't see how your assessment on automatic linking and presenting the information within seconds can be true as a fresh passport solves most questioning for long terms exemptees and back to back TV users, or those on massive overstay prior to good guy bad guy ban, some up to ten years.

 

 

FYI….  The information that I provided in post #6 to which you commented is based upon over ten years’ experience working as a senior co-ordinator involving the design, development and installation of the E-Boarder project set up by the NSA and GCHQ following 911.  Having been involved in the installation of a number of systems (in particular the Advanced Passenger Information System) throughout the world, including Thailand, I think it fair to say that I have a reasonable knowledge of how the Immigration systems works.

 

Even though the immigration database contains hundreds of millions of entries, I can assure you that the system is fast (in fact very fast) at retrieving information.  Just consider how quick Google comes back with information when you enter a request into its search engine. 

 

The Immigration system is fairly sophisticated and is very capable of linking passports, even when an individual has changed their name (80% plus).  It may come as a surprise to many but the number of people who hold a passport with the same Country Code + Gender + Date of Birth which is held on the immigration system is actually quite small – less than 50 in most cases. 

 

The system has a built-in (fairly basic) facial recognition system so it is able to compare the photo held on the system when the person last entered the Kingdom (or was deported/refused entry) and compare it with that given on the photo page of the passport being presented.  Any matches are then displayed on the IOs screen so he/she can confirm if there is an actual match. 

 

And yes, the IO on the arrival desk can confirm the link to make it permanent.  And yes, the IOs do make errors occasionally which can only be corrected by the IT Department at Immigration HQ on approval by a very senior officer e.g. Major General or above.

 

The system has recently (in the last three years) been upgraded and now reads the Machine Readable information at the bottom of the photo page between <<<< >>>> and at the same time it reads the encrypted biographic data (which is the same information on the photo page including the passport holder’s photo) held on the passport microchip.  The system compares the two in order to confirm that the passport is genuine or not.

 

Once the IO at the arrival/departure desk scans the passport (and if necessary confirms a link with a previous passport), they have access to the individual’s immigration history. 

 

Your point about IOs flipping through the passport is true, it’s happened to me on more than one occasion.  When it has happened, the IOs tends to be of the old age grouping and probably feels more comfortable with hard copy rather than that what is available to him/her on their screen.  The flicking through the passport may also be attributed to the fact that the IO is looking for the person’s current visa etc. which are not always inserted in any logical order.

 

Regarding your comments about massive over stayers, again I quite agree.  Immigration don’t seem to use the system to its full capabilities.  A simple SQL query written by an IT savvy person at their HQ would easily list all those who are on over stay.  The problem then comes at trying to find them, but that is going way off the topic.

[darrendsd]

37 minutes ago, 007 RED said:

The Immigration system is fairly sophisticated and is very capable of linking passports, even when an individual has changed their name (80% plus)

For this to be correct this must mean that their old name is stored on the information part of their new, new name PP that can only be read by a scanner,  is that correct? Otherwise how would they be able to link old and new names?

 

Edited May 15, 2018 by darrendsd

[Cricky]

3 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Per my previous post above and based on my past several years of dual UK passportry, your perception that the "British government hands out 2nd passports willy nllly" maybe isn't the case. The request letter needs to be the signed original in the mail and they contact the signatory of that letter. They also want to see a full color scan of the other, concurrent passport as part of the either passport renewal application.

 

I would suggest that British oil field workers having concurrent UK passports are comparatively rare but an Australian oil field worker having concurrent AU passports is more rare.

 

Yes, the biggest 48-page British one only has 42 usable pages. I recall reading that Australians can get a 60-page passport, is that correct? I also read that there is a 90-page UK passport exclusively for flight crew but haven't found any evidence of that being factual.

 

Not sure what the comment on the RE is relevant unless you missed in the OP that I called the retirement Extension an 'RE' to save typing it in long-hand every time. As explained, my 'first' passport has the RE and all the required supporting re-entry permits in it. The multiple re-entry permit costs the same whether one uses it 3 times or 6 times. I don't nickel and dime on getting single re-entry permits as I know I will be traveling a lot.

 

Thanks

My British friends are very good mates, we drink together regularly when in town.

What you have described regarding having a second British passport issued is nothing like what my mates have described.

“The request letter needs to be the signed original in the mail and they contact the signatory of that letter. They also want to see a full color scan of the other, concurrent passport as part of the either passport renewal application.”

I assume the request letter is generated by the Employer/manager etc.

Most mates are on day rate (not on salary as I was required), not even a permanent job, one friend wasn’t employed and was issued a second passport – this is definitely WILLY NILLY.

Yes, 64 page Aussie passport.

And yes RE require a re-entry permit which cost money.

As I said using your 2^nd passport would avoid the cost of re-entry permits, therefore saving money.

I’m sure many choose this option to avoid permit costs.

[007 RED]

1 hour ago, darrendsd said:

For this to be correct this must mean that their old name is stored on the information part of their new, new name PP that can only be read by a scanner,  is that correct? Otherwise how would they be able to link old and new names?

 

Darren ….. The answer was in the next couple of lines of my original post.

 

When the passport is scanned and the information at the bottom of the photo page between <<<< >>>> is read the system initially just looks only at the passport number and searches its database to see if that number is known.  If the passport number is not known, the system then does a search using: Country Code + Gender + Date of Birth + Family Name + First Name(s).

 

If this search does not identify any matches the system goes back and just identifies any matches using just Country Code + Gender + Date of Birth.  Although there are hundreds (if not thousands) of millions of passport information held in the immigration database the number of people that have the same Country Code, Gender and Date of Birth is actually quite small.  In most cases its less than 50 people.

 

The system then compares the photos of the people that it has identified from the first three criterion against the photo in the passport which is currently being presented.

 

The original immigration system did not have any facial recognition facility built into it so all it could do was to present the IO with all the photos of the people that the system had identified as possible matches.  A time consuming task.   Over the past few years facial recognition has become more reliable and has been introduced into the immigration system.  Although it is still fairly basic, it is never the less 80% plus accurate.  No doubt as the facial recognition technology improves the facility will be upgraded and become more accurate in the future.

 

Any faces that that the system has identified as possible matches are then shown on the IOs screen (possibly five or six photos max).  If the IO decides that a particular photo matches the person in front of them, they can select that photo and see a summary of that person’s history.   No doubt at that stage the IO will start asking a lot of questions like: Have you been to Thailand before? Have you had a previous passport?  Have you changed your name? etc. etc.

 

Once the IO has established that the person has had a previous passport, and used it to enter the Kingdom, they can confirm the link between the original and current passports and in future any IO looking at the new passport details will be able to see the person’s immigration history and charges of names etc.

 

FYI - I have only indicated part of the process.  The system also does a number of other background searches using similar principles to see if the person holds a second passport issued by another country in the case of dual nationality.

 

Hopefully you will see from the more detailed description I have provided that the system does not necessarily need the person’s full current and previous names to make a possible match between previous and current passports.

[Skeptic7]

Good post...very interesting. The one line that sums it up for me (and should for everyone) and explains all is...

 

On 5/13/2018 at 11:49 PM, NanLaew said:

a shining example of how arbitrary their immigration procedures have been enforced

 

and still are and probably always will be! Always makes me LOL when anyone has a basic question about immigration procedures here and the first question asked by the mods & experts before being able to provide a solution, is...to which IO are are you going?  Should be the same Kingdom-wide. Arbitrary is putting it mildly. Ridiculously inconsistent yet typically Thai, would be getting a bit closer to the mark. 

 

Anyway...thanks for sharing. 

[Skeptic7]

On 14/05/2018 at 10:13 AM, lonewolf99 said:

Like the OP I have held  2 UK passports since the mid 90's for the same reason.

But..... I have never had an extension based on retirement visa in any one of them ...because I am not retired and "technically" neither is the OP.

So no surprise this was flagged. I swap my passports purely to avoid having them fill up too quickly.

 

As is always the case - Ubonjoe is right....and so was the Officer at the airport.

 

 

Pardon if misunderstanding, but is it being insinuated that the OP and many others here whom have retained a "RE" and are not officially "retired" from work, have obtained it illicitly and are breaking the law? 

 

This is simply not so. The requirements for the "RE" are age (50 up) and income (฿800k in a Thai bank for required length of time -or- ฿65k/mo income from home country -or- combo of the 2). NO requirement that the applicant not still be employed. 

 

From a popular legal firm's website in Thailand...

 

Things You Need To Know About The Thai Retirement Visa:

• Thailand retirement visa is the popular term for "Non-Immigrant OA-Long Stay Visa".
• The visa can be valid either for a single entry or multiple entries.
• This is a long term Thai visa that entitles the holder a stay of 1 year in Thailand.
• The visa is renewable every year and the renewal process can be done inside Thailand (requirements for the visa renewal still apply).

Qualifications

• Applicant must be 50 years of age or over
• Must meet ONE of the financial requirements
  • Security deposit of THB 800,000 in a Thai Bank Account for 2 months prior to the visa application.
  • Monthly income or pension of at least THB 65,000. An affidavit from the foreign embassy or consulate has to be obtained as proof of the income.
  • Combination of the Thai bank account and yearly income with the total of 800,000 THB.

  Supporting documents as proof of the security deposit in a Thai bank are as follows:

  • Updated bank book or passbook
  • Bank letter stating that the money had been deposited to the account from an oversea source for not less than 2 months.

 

Source: https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-visa/Thailand-Retirement-Visa.php

Edited May 15, 2018 by Maestro
Added link o the source.

[KittenKong]

........valid UK passport that has a retirement extension (RE) in it...... late last year, I did a short job offshore Gulf of Thailand where I had a Non O visa issued in the second passport so that my Thai employer could get the WP. I did this as my first passport has the RE and I cannot work on that type of extension.

So you have a retirement extension that specifically prohibits you from working, and in order to work here you used another passport to obtain a work permit, all without cancelling your retirement extension and also hiding the fact that you even had one.

And you wonder why you had problems?

You should probably be thankful that they didnt deport you permanently. Maybe that's what all the "wife in Udon" discussion was about: perhaps they felt sorry for you (or her really - they dont care about you) and decided to let you stay as a favour to their countrywoman.

I suspect that many other countries would have just deported you without appeal, as what you did appears at first sight to be deliberately fraudulent.

[Skeptic7]

36 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

So you have a retirement extension that specifically prohibits you from working, and in order to work here you used another passport to obtain a work permit, all without cancelling your retirement extension and also hiding the fact that you even had one.

And you wonder why you had problems?

You should probably be thankful that they didnt deport you permanently. Maybe that's what all the "wife in Udon" discussion was about: perhaps they felt sorry for you (or her really - they dont care about you) and decided to let you stay as a favour to their countrywoman.

I suspect that many other countries would have just deported you without appeal, as what you did appears at first sight to be deliberately fraudulent.

Unless you are privy to info that no one else is, read post #37 above. Extension based on retirement (RE) does not prohibit working. Just a popular name for "Non-Immigrant OA-Long Stay Visa".

[KittenKong]

Unless you are privy to info that no one else is, read post #37 above. Extension based on retirement (RE) does not prohibit working. Just a popular name for "Non-Immigrant OA-Long Stay Visa".

As far as I know you cant work in Thailand if you are here on a retirement extension.

Edited May 15, 2018 by KittenKong

[Maestro]

2 hours ago, KittenKong said:

As far as I know you cant work in Thailand if you are here on a retirement extension.

 

Correctly put, you are not allowed to work in Thailand without a work permit and the Department of Employment will not issue a work permit to you if your passport shows that you have an extension of stay for the reason of retirement.

[Maestro]

5 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Unless you are privy to info that no one else is, read post #37 above. Extension based on retirement (RE) does not prohibit working. Just a popular name for "Non-Immigrant OA-Long Stay Visa".

 

 

IIs it possible that you have your wires crossed a little? The web page from which you quoted in your post #37 states at the top of the page that the "retirement visa is the popular term for "Non-Immigrant OA-Long Stay Visa".

 

Now, if I understand the above-quoted text from your post #39 correctly, you are saying that the retirement extension is a popular name for the "Non-Immigrant OA-Long Stay Visa". From my observation, however, on this forum "retirement extension" is commonly used to mean "extension of stay for the reason of retirement".

 

I have also observed that on this forum that "retirement visa" is often used to mean "retirement extension", but never have I seen "retirement extension" used to mean "retirement visa" and I propose that we should not start now to use "retirement extension" that way.

 

 

[stevenl]

10 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Unless you are privy to info that no one else is, read post #37 above. Extension based on retirement (RE) does not prohibit working. Just a popular name for "Non-Immigrant OA-Long Stay Visa".

The website you quote from has incorrect information on it.

 

Working is not allowed with O-A visa or extension based on retirement.

[Skeptic7]

8 hours ago, KittenKong said:

As far as I know you cant work in Thailand if you are here on a retirement extension.

 

49 minutes ago, stevenl said:

The website you quote from has incorrect information on it.

 

Working is not allowed with O-A visa or extension based on retirement.

OK, got it. Working in Thailand is not permitted on the retirement extension. Thought the OP was only working in other countries, but not in Thailand. So the question intended, though thoroughly muddled up by me, remains...is working outside of Thailand permitted on an extension based on retirement? 

 

Thanks. 

[ubonjoe]

10 minutes ago, Skeptic7 said:

So the question intended, though thoroughly muddled up by me, remains...is working outside of Thailand permitted on an extension based on retirement? 

You can work outside the country with an extension of stay or a OA visa.

Many people are doing it.

[NanLaew]

9 hours ago, KittenKong said:

As far as I know you cant work in Thailand if you are here on a retirement extension.

Correct.

 

Maybe it’s all a bit hard for you to understand how I used a perfectly legal way to work legally in Thailand; a totally legal but different passport with a proper, legal Thai visa that enabled the legal WP to be issued to legally work here. All this endorsed by the state entity I was ultimately reporting to. It's the same perfectly legal way I have worked in Thailand on 3 previous occasions over the past 10 years; acquiring a proper, legal visa in a legal but different passport that enabled each of those legal WP’s to be issued with the endorsement of the same state entity. Now, before you wet yourself over that confession to what you will invariably see as serial fraud, did you notice how many times the term legal cropped up in an overly long explanation that was admittedly dumbed down just to help you out? By the way, these awful subterfuges, all perfectly legal (there’s that word again!) were required due to certain ill-advised government desk jockeys who said that the Non-O visa issued due to being married to a Thai national could not be used to support a WP. When I suggested I use another passport and simply get another Non-O and re-enter the country, they said that was totally acceptable. Note: Thai authorities including state entities said it was legally acceptable.

 

Now maybe, just maybe you would personally love to see me clapped in irons and dragged away to IDC and banned forever but hey, that's your wee fantasy about them doing my wife a favor and letting me stay here so do yourself a favor and suck it up sunshine, because like it or lump it, I'm still here.

[NanLaew]

15 hours ago, Skeptic7 said:

Good post...very interesting. The one line that sums it up for me (and should for everyone) and explains all is...

 

 

and still are and probably always will be! Always makes me LOL when anyone has a basic question about immigration procedures here and the first question asked by the mods & experts before being able to provide a solution, is...to which IO are are you going?  Should be the same Kingdom-wide. Arbitrary is putting it mildly. Ridiculously inconsistent yet typically Thai, would be getting a bit closer to the mark. 

 

Anyway...thanks for sharing. 

No worries, just sharing a recent experience so that others who may be exercising the same derivative of passport flipping as I did are aware of possible additional scrutiny on arrival.

 

As you say, it's testament to how buggered up Thai bureaucracy is when there's no standard in Immigration matters. But that applies to other things like getting a Thai DL, a 'yellow book' and other potential illicit revenue streams for gormless government workers.

[KittenKong]

"Maybe it’s all a bit hard for you to understand how I used a perfectly legal way to work legally in Thailand; a totally legal but different passport with a proper, legal Thai visa that enabled the legal WP to be issued to legally work here."

You think that's legal but I suspect that many others, including apparently Thai immigration, would think otherwise. Otherwise why would you have had all that hassle at the airport resulting in them specifically telling you to only use your passport with the retirement extension in future?


"Now maybe, just maybe you would personally love to see me clapped in irons and dragged away to IDC and banned forever but hey, that's your wee fantasy about them doing my wife a favor and letting me stay here so do yourself a favor and suck it up sunshine, because like it or lump it, I'm still here."

Again you mistakenly assume that I care one way or another what you do or where you are or where you go. I do not.

Edited May 16, 2018 by KittenKong

[NanLaew]

22 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

Again you mistakenly assume that I care one way or another what you do or where you are or where you go. I do not.

And yet you continue to read this thread and respond.

 

I guess some folk are funny that way.

Edited May 16, 2018 by NanLaew

[Rama]

the issuance of 2 passports by your home country is your home county's prerogative. The acceptance of both - or only one  - by a visiting country is the visiting country's prerogative. You use of 2 in this instance is skirting thai law, whether that was your intention or not. They are within their rights to demand your usage of only one. 

[Cricky]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

You can work outside the country with an extension of stay or a OA visa.

Many people are doing it.

YES TRUE,

If you work OUTSIDE Thailand it makes NO difference what visa you have for Thailand.

[NanLaew]

30 minutes ago, Rama said:

the issuance of 2 passports by your home country is your home county's prerogative. The acceptance of both - or only one  - by a visiting country is the visiting country's prerogative. You use of 2 in this instance is skirting thai law, whether that was your intention or not. They are within their rights to demand your usage of only one. 

I think that some of the more... uninformed and possibly ignorant have skewed this thread by suggesting that I consider I was treated badly.

 

I was not treated badly; the row of people that had to wait patiently behind me were the ones getting treated badly. I fully agree that the IO's of any country can mandate what passport I use and, taking it to the extremes that some here apparently crave, ban me for life. But I digress.

 

FWIW, it is only supposition that any rule was being circumvented let alone any law; people are flipping passports all over the world and not just when returning to Thailand. As I explained in the OP, I was unable to get an answer from the supervisor if this was an old statute revitalized or a new statute. She seemed more annoyed at the desk IO's gurning away in Thai all the time that she was talking with me in reasonable English than she was with the fact that I had used two passports for as many years as their database permitted them to check.

 

The thread was primarily to indicate that there may be tighter enforcement of existing passport and visa laws and to warn anyone similarly challenged. Maybe all passport flippers need to be aware that halving your time on the Thai clock by simply flipping passports may become a thing of the past?

 

21 minutes ago, rickjza said:

YES TRUE,

If you work OUTSIDE Thailand it makes NO difference what visa you have for Thailand.

Exactly.

 

I would say 95% of my work has been happily conducted in other countries and typically I decline working in LOS because in my line of work, it's a bit of a backwater. It's possible that the linkage with 5% of previous legal work in Thailand may be the flag-raiser here. Before anyone else jumps in with any off-topic 'What did I expect?', think about that first. This is Thailand. Since consistency isn't an easily commodity here, what do YOU expect?

 

Thanks

[ubonjoe]

Two out of several bickering posts have been removed. Time to end it.