1 minute ago, car720 said:

That's easy.  Together they tell the US to bugger off and mind their own business.

 

I find that most people are wrong about most things  all of the time.

3 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Everyone knows China is in control of North Korea's actions. That's not the issue. The issue is what happens next.

The issue is, Trump has handed NK the moral high ground.

 

Think about that for a moment.

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

The issue is, Trump has handed NK the moral high ground.

 

Think about that for a moment.

 

On what planet does a murderous dictator have the moral high ground? 

 

Geez

4 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I find that most people are wrong about most things  all of the time.

“The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane.”

Marcus Aurelius

2 minutes ago, UncleTouchyFingers said:

 

On what planet does a murderous dictator have the moral high ground? 

 

Geez

Planet Trump, he’s just handed it to NK.

 

You fail to see the pitiful irony in this.

North Korea ready to talk 'at any time' with Donald Trump

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44248256

 

Makes Trump and his administration look like the dolts they are. Completely outplayed by North korea and China.

Trump wrote a Dear John letter to someone who had already dumped him.   The US pre-summit team had already been stood up in Singapore when the N. Koreans didn't show up.   

 

Kim is a winner in this.   China is a big, big winner. Trump is a loser and has potentially threatened the relationship with SK.   The SK president was in the Oval Office and now goes home looking like a fool.   

 

There is absolutely no strategy on the part of the US.   Bullying is not a diplomatic strategy.

13 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

"North Korea's arbitrary action to dismantle this facility on its own, this is not something that we can believe is part of North Korea's declared aim of denuclearization. It's nothing more than destroying evidence."

 

An "arbitrary action" is not backtracking.  He said he would do it, and he's done it.  That's more than we can say for Trump.

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The issue is, Trump has handed NK the moral high ground.

 

Think about that for a moment.

 

With all due respect, you are delusional. You've still got time to edit your post. 

Trump calls Kim open, honorable

 

"[Trump] said Kim Jong Un wants a historic, high-stakes meeting as soon as possible and suggested the North Korean dictator has been very open and very honorable" 

 

That's some nice moral high ground you have there.  Now Trump has gone back on his word and Kim is keeping his promises.  The moral high ground just got even higher.

10 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

With all due respect, you are delusional. You've still got time to edit your post. 

Watch and learn.

 

NK is already playing Trump’s withdrawal, painting the US as unreliable and insincere.

 

Amongst the cards on the table is the reputation of the US as a trusted international partner.

 

China is undoubtedly winning here.

Edited May 25, 20188 yr by Chomper Higgot

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Watch and learn.

 

NK is already playing Trump’s with withdrawal, painting the US as unreliable and insincere.

 

North Korea started the ball rolling by saying they were going to de-nuclearize the Korean Penninsula. They have since stated they have no intention of giving up their nuclear weapons and you are calling the nation that withdraws from the talks that were predicated on that de-nuclearization unreliable and insincere. In your Bizarro World that must mean Kim is a paragon of integrity and virtue. 

2 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

North Korea started the ball rolling by saying they were going to de-nuclearize the Korean Penninsula. They have since stated they have no intention of giving up their nuclear weapons and you are calling the nation that withdraws from the talks that were predicated on that de-nuclearization unreliable and insincere. In your Bizarro World that must mean Kim is a paragon of integrity and virtue. 

It’s deplomacy.

 

And are you sure you know what NK’s offer was?

 

Whatever it started as, Trump showed his hand early, declared he’d done the deal and therefore left himself and the US exposed to NK changing the deal.

 

NK are playing Trump like a fiddle 

 

Now NK are able to point at Trump and declare with good reason, he can’t be trusted.

 

This comes on the back of Trump’s disgraceful behaviour over the Iran deal.

 

Game at play:

 

Can the international community trust the US and if not who will become the trusted international partner of choice?

 

 

9 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

you are calling the nation that withdraws from the talks that were predicated on that de-nuclearization unreliable and insincere.

 

This is just factually wrong.

 

Long sought by North Korea, summit holds risks for Trump administration

 

"Now, as a summit unexpectedly appears possible, analysts fear U.S. President Donald Trump’s understaffed administration may lack the expertise to successfully turn a political spectacle long sought by Pyongyang into a meaningful opportunity to convince North Korea to abandon its nuclear program.

 

South Korean officials said Friday Trump almost immediately agreed to meet North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, without preconditions, by the end of May. Even proponents of a diplomatic approach towards North Korea worry the administration could be rushing into a summit with little time to prepare."

 

Without preconditions.

3 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

 

 

Can the international community trust the US and if not who will become the trusted international partner of choice?

 

 

 

The US has been the international partner of choice because its partners know that they will reap the same rewards but almost none of the risks and a disproportionately small portion of the cost of that partnership. The US has historically been willing to screw its citizens for the benefit of its partners. Good luck finding another international partner that stupid.

3 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

The US has been the international partner of choice because its partners know that they will reap the same rewards but almost none of the risks and a disproportionately small portion of the cost of that partnership. The US has historically been willing to screw its citizens for the benefit of its partners. Good luck finding another international partner that stupid.

I’m sure that makes sense to you.

 

Nations observing the behaviour of the US under this President may think otherwise.

5 minutes ago, attrayant said:

 

This is just factually wrong.

 

Long sought by North Korea, summit holds risks for Trump administration

 

"Now, as a summit unexpectedly appears possible, analysts fear U.S. President Donald Trump’s understaffed administration may lack the expertise to successfully turn a political spectacle long sought by Pyongyang into a meaningful opportunity to convince North Korea to abandon its nuclear program.

 

South Korean officials said Friday Trump almost immediately agreed to meet North Korean leader Kim Jong Un, without preconditions, by the end of May. Even proponents of a diplomatic approach towards North Korea worry the administration could be rushing into a summit with little time to prepare."

 

Without preconditions.

 

I believe the specific steps to de-nuclearization are the preconditions not required. The meeting is predicated on the elimination of nuclear wepons on the Korean Penninsula as pledged by Kim to Moon.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/27/606264786/peace-at-hand-korean-leaders-meet-for-historic-border-handshake

Again Tiny D. got played. He gets played alot. His inability to negotiate a deal is starting to demonstrate just who this man is. Alot easier to do a deal buying a building, or selling a condo, than negotiating a peace treaty. This guy is in so far over his head, and this demonstrates that. The North Koreans called Pence stupid, after he made a statement of such stupidity and ignorance, it boggles the mind. And mr thin skin cancels the summit. Go figure. I put the possibility of this summit happening at 10%. Perhaps I was being too optimistic. Captain Chaos just does not have a diplomatic bone in his body, nor is his 13 year old mind capable of the kind of elegance, humility, intelligence, foresight, and vision to engage in this kind of work. 

 

Fortunately for all of us, he will be gone from the scene within 12 months. Wait and see. The downfall of the blowhard is about to unfold. Good, good and better. The Tiny D. Reality TV show is drawing to a close. The world will celebrate his departure, stage left. 

10 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

I believe the specific steps to de-nuclearization are the preconditions not required. The meeting is predicated on the elimination of nuclear wepons on the Korean Penninsula as pledged by Kim to Moon.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/04/27/606264786/peace-at-hand-korean-leaders-meet-for-historic-border-handshake

From the link you gave:

 

“The two nations — technically in a state of war for more than six decades — would work toward a permanent peace treaty and the elimination of nuclear weapons from the peninsula.”

 

The term ‘work toward’ is the key to understanding where you are getting this wrong.

8 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

I believe the specific steps to de-nuclearization are the preconditions not required.

 

That goes without saying.  The meeting was just days away, so of course specifics wouldn't be expected.  That's not what  "without precondition" means.

 

Canceling a summit before the ironing-out of any details have even been attempted is just insane.  I don't care what either side is or isn't saying.  Have the summit and work those details out.  That's why we have summits.  If, after the summit, things still can't be worked out, then at least Trump would have had something to stand on when it all falls apart.  At least he could have said he tried.

 

Now, if the two Koreas continue to make progress - even limited progress that doesn't include full denuclearization - that will have happened in Trump's absence and mark him as the fool that he is.

12 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

From the link you gave:

 

“The two nations — technically in a state of war for more than six decades — would work toward a permanent peace treaty and the elimination of nuclear weapons from the peninsula.”

 

The term ‘work toward’ is the key to understanding where you are getting this wrong.

 

"Work toward" indicates there is a result in mind. When that result is taken off the table what are you then working toward?

Trump was not played. On the contrary, Trump encouraged  North Korea to come and talk, and he is the first world power to have done so without imposing pre-conditions.  If anything he deserves praise for  taking the risk and reaching out to Kim

All that Pence did was to be truthful. The North started hemming, hawing and hesitating. Pence simply said what a possible outcome would be if the North did not consider discussing a peaceful, amicable resolution. Trump went out of his way to reassure Kim and to praise him.

The North Koreans have been playing the west for decades and for the first time since Truman, the USA has a  President who wasn't going to be played.  The North is in trouble and our friends the Chinese intervened to derail any peace talks between the North and the west.

 

The fact of the matter is that Japan is not going to sit by while the North Koreans fire nuclear missiles at it. People assume that the USA is pushing the  hardline.  It's Japan. And btw, the experts in South Korea  predicted this would happen and at the time of the meeting announcement, said Trump would have to be firm. He actually followed their advice. It's a nice change.

53 minutes ago, lannarebirth said:

 

North Korea started the ball rolling by saying they were going to de-nuclearize the Korean Penninsula. They have since stated they have no intention of giving up their nuclear weapons and you are calling the nation that withdraws from the talks that were predicated on that de-nuclearization unreliable and insincere. In your Bizarro World that must mean Kim is a paragon of integrity and virtue. 

 

 

how dare you refer to participants of the worlds leading think tank bastion of academia and intellect, tv forum, as living in a "bizarro world" !!!

Edited May 25, 20188 yr by atyclb

Pyong Yang's 'open hostility'- he should be briefed on what his own men Bolton and Pence have said over the past week. This was on the cards for ages. I'm surprised fatty didn't tell him to stuff the summit up his backside.

 

To do it on the day the DPRK blows up its (already wrecked) nuclear installation is just another of the Orange Buffoon's foot in mouth moments. 

 

As a pundit pointed out last month a summit was never going to work. First you sent the staffers in to do the grunt work, THEN you send the leaders in to make the announcements- in Trump-World the opposite is happening.

 

He has ballsed up Iran, the Koreans have seen what happened in Libya (not on his watch I know) as well. The only person with a hard-on for him at the moment is Benny the Thug.

 

Edit: noting the comments about Trump above its clear who the Americans and non-Americans are!

Edited May 25, 20188 yr by Psimbo

5 minutes ago, geriatrickid said:

Trump was not played. On the contrary, Trump encouraged  North Korea to come and talk, and he is the first world power to have done so without imposing pre-conditions.  If anything he deserves praise for  taking the risk and reaching out to Kim

All that Pence did was to be truthful. The North started hemming, hawing and hesitating. Pence simply said what a possible outcome would be if the North did not consider discussing a peaceful, amicable resolution. Trump went out of his way to reassure Kim and to praise him.

The North Koreans have been playing the west for decades and for the first time since Truman, the USA has a  President who wasn't going to be played.  The North is in trouble and our friends the Chinese intervened to derail any peace talks between the North and the west.

 

The fact of the matter is that Japan is not going to sit by while the North Koreans fire nuclear missiles at it. People assume that the USA is pushing the  hardline.  It's Japan. And btw, the experts in South Korea  predicted this would happen and at the time of the meeting announcement, said Trump would have to be firm. He actually followed their advice. It's a nice change.

Some interesting points, however, Trump failed to get his ducks in order, diplomatically speaking.   He's been making his threats to China (mostly Trade) and without them being on the same page, it was going to fall apart quickly.   

 

What we have now is a Kim who is seen, to some degree, as a victim and sanctions are going to be hard, if not impossible to enforce.   We already know that Russia was breaking the sanctions along with China.   I am sure Iran will be more than happy to resume a friendly relationship.   We are exactly back to the axis of evil days.   

 

Trump was played.   

4 hours ago, UncleTouchyFingers said:

 

Nope, Kim is now backtracking. 

 

 

Yes, this is the card I think Trump was playing (pun intended). By doing this he has removed NK's ability to play brinkmanship with the meeting. Kim will be under tremendous pressure to come back to the table. Trump's letter was still full of praise for Kim, so he will be able to come back without losing too much face if he handles it right.

1 minute ago, Credo said:

Some interesting points, however, Trump failed to get his ducks in order, diplomatically speaking.   He's been making his threats to China (mostly Trade) and without them being on the same page, it was going to fall apart quickly.   

 

What we have now is a Kim who is seen, to some degree, as a victim and sanctions are going to be hard, if not impossible to enforce.   We already know that Russia was breaking the sanctions along with China.   I am sure Iran will be more than happy to resume a friendly relationship.   We are exactly back to the axis of evil days.   

 

Trump was played.   

 

If what you are saying is true then it looks like we never left.

2 hours ago, lannarebirth said:

 

Uh huh. You really think they're going to do that? Remember it was South Korea that was making the pitch to the US that North Korea was willing to give up all its nukes, which apparently, they are not. What's SK's upside in your scenario?

The Russians and Chinese will kick out the USA  from Asia.The USA never wanted peace between SK and NK.If they have peace then there is no need for US soldiers in SK or Japan.Trump is a total loser.If trump stays any longer in office the USA  will be kicked out allover Asia and soon the EU will also turn their back and open to the east.If the USA are isolated from the rest of the world,then what?Since trump USA is more like an enemy than a partner and friend to the Europeans.

3 hours ago, Samui Bodoh said:

The alternative is to leave a loser maniac with nukes all by himself to stew....

 

 

I'd slightly revise your prior comment to:

 

The alternative is to leave two loser maniacs with nukes all by themselves to stew....

As much as I despise Trump, in truth, he's only failing pretty much where every U.S. administration has failed with NK before. No one's been able to resolve the issue. Can't get them to give up their nukes. Not willing to start a war over it either, at least, not thus far.

 

I wonder if the world will ever really find out what went on here:

 

--Was Kim playing the U.S. and others all along with the summit talk, similar to NK's past conduct?

 

--Did Bolton's Libya talk sour the deal with Kim being reminded of what happened in Libya and getting cold feet?

 

--Did Trump's trade war with China prompt China to lean on NK to back out of talks?

 

So many questions. So few clear answers.