Thai Immigration Cracks Down On Foreign Teachers

[animatic]

Though I never finished any full university curriculum,

I have dated tenured professors for extended periods,

and not been at a loss for inteligent conversation.

My personal specialities I was doing for 20 years

before ANY schools started teaching it.

One higher learning institution tried to hire me for

5 years running, degree or no. I was too busy.

Practical experience needs to count for something.

TEFL and a good way with the language

and that ALL important ablity to communicate,

should be enough for the pay scale indicated.

Edited January 31, 2007 by animatic

[Arkady]

Another example of the official Thai loathing of foreigners and their desire to fly first class while only being able to pay the magic bus fare. Since they don't have the courage to reform their archaic laws relating to foreigners, they would be much better off just not enforcing them as in the past.

Those that miss out will low income students who desparately need conversation with a native speaker to make up for Thai English teachers in their schools who cannot make themselves understood in English. The most famous paedophile teacher, the moron who caused this knee jerk reaction, turned out not to have committed the crime he confessed to anyway. At school I was sexually harassed by a notorious gay teacher who had excellent qualifications from a prestigious university.

In Singapore the Ministry of Education imports highly qualified native speaker English teachers for government schools, paying them high salaries, even though the population speaks English as an official language and there own English teachers are good. Maybe Thailand will be able to aspire to do this in 50 years time. For now they should cut their coat according to their cloth and quit all this racist bs. Fact - the vast majority of the many rapes and sexual harassments committed in Thailand are done by Thais.

[kenseanfb]

Geting rid off teachrs is tipical, first expatts now us teeachrs we does a good job for this contry, who can tell them how to speech properly now, its bad enohugh gettin a order right in K.fC as it is, up to them, you can get digrees on the internet now anyway,so thay can't check evryone,can thay?

[b]

"Geting rid off teachrs is tipical, first expatts now us teeachrs we does a good job for this contry, who can tell them how to speech properly now, its bad enohugh gettin a order right in K.fC as it is, up to them, you can get digrees on the internet now anyway,so thay can't check evryone,can thay?"

[/b]

Hey man,

Don't get me wrong. I somehow agree with the standard which the Thai Gov or Ministry of Educ is trying to work out.

But ,only an educated teacher can educate his students properly. It's not just because we/you are a native speaker, that's why you are capable to teach. But it's what you have and can impart to your students.

Example, some can speak english yet they don't know the rules of English language or English as a subject...maybe, even the spellin you know?

iT'S ME,

Sharky

[Dupont]

I am really happy to see this. I meet so many people here under fake degrees and many admitt it to me like it is some kind of joke. Get those people out of here.

But maybe if they are good teacher without a degree (there are some) Maybe the system can work out that they keep said job while attending at a local uni here that offers English classes.

For me I have a degree in Family and Marriage consoling. With only a BA I can't do crap with it back in the US. I can do lots of low level paperwork jobs for child services etc or work phones some place. While I could obtain a Dr. in my field and with 10 years of experience have the potential to make 100k a year I don't wish to persue this line of work. SO I can get an MS in my field 3 years of experience and get 30k a year. Or get some entry level job at get 20-25k a year. I said I would rather try teaching before I commit to studying more or begin my climb of the ladder. So making 25k a month before tutoring etc is great, I found out I love it and I plan to get my TEFL. After living here for a few years I will return home with my soon to be wife (She has a BA in English and a Inter. TEFL MS degree and is bilingual) will return home and I will get a job at a university and brush up on my spanish. Then get a teaching cert if I want to do teaching in a non university setting. After the kids grow up I can return with a Masters and years of experience and get a comfy job at an international school.

Is that like Counceling?

You are typical of the Elitist snobs that exist in the world. Why not do someting you are qualified to do?

Secondly, you were teaching BEFORE you did the TEFL, which makes you even more unsuitable and criminal.

God help Thailand if you elitist left wing nutters ever get over here in number.

This is a comma by the way ,,,,,,, we put them in sentences, espescially long, meandering gibbering wrecks of sentence like yours. We also put full stops at the end..... Usually!

We don't ususally pull people up for crap English on here, but as yours is so dreadful, and you have set yourself up as better than most TEFL teachers here, thought I better redden a few of your worse remarks. Most of your sentences need totally re-writing BTW, I suggest you get an ape to proof read your next post. Your English here wouldn't get you a high school leaving certificate, believe me.

[opalhort]

How would you enforce this Opalhort? Think how many people would try to cheat and beat the 'system'.Actually the schools organize all the necessary papers/visas for teachers mine did anyway and they paid for them too.

I think this should be quite easy to enforce.

Any applicant who has not passed the test, regardless of who (applicant or school) applies for WP won't get the WP/visa.

Of course there will be cheats, especially if the school cooperates, but it would do away with the degree requirement.

A degree issued by a foreign educational institution (real or fake) is difficult, time consuming and costly to verify, whereas a local certificate issued by the 'place' could be verified on the spot.

As many posts here point out that a degree holder may or may not be a good teacher and the same goes for a non-degree holder, this system would filter the good form the bad teachers, based on the standard set by the 'place', regardless of educational background.

opalhort

[puipuitom]

i know bugger all about teaching english but in 20 years as programmer and manager in the computer business, i can tell you there is no correlation betweeen college degrees and ability to do a good job.

also, why do they equate not having a degree with pedophiles and criminal behavior! what's the basis for that.

steve

=================================================================

Steve; I totally agree with what you said; ergo: I happen to know, that if the teaching of English language-skills is left to Thai teachers (and I say this with utter respect for ANY teacher !) then we can forget any progress in the english language-skills of Thai students !

Even a socalled "non-qualified" foreign English teacher, will have a much more beneficial effect on Thai students English language abilities then the alternative Thai native English teachers.

Who was it who said: "Talent alone is not omnipotent; without ambition, talent is useless" ?

In other words; a person who is enthousiastic in his endeavour to teach Thai students the English language, at least in my book, will be much more effective than a person loaded with the right qualifications, but who'ld rather be sailing . . . . . .

The other important factor is; young Thai's do so desperately NEED proper English instruction, if they wish to get ahead in this world which puts so much emphasis on IT & Communications !

Anyone disagreeing should replay that CNN interview with the ex Prime Minister of this Nation, a "Dr." none the less; an individual who attained the rank of Pol. Col. and a "worldwide communicator" - I'll tell you; his English is abominable, to say the very least ! ! !

JGK/Pattaya

I agree completely: The Thai prononciation of English is so desperate bad, you can better speak of Thinglish or even Thailish. many Thaoi's even cannot pronounce theri own langage properly. Aks to say": farang, and they say: falang, ask for Khob Khun Krap and they pronounce khap khun khap. "Easy, Shotcut" etc

And when English is NOT the native language of the other contact ( like me: Dutch and 90 % of all Europeans), it happens quite often I suggest to switch to writing instead of phoning.

And often, after explanation and explanation again, the Thai counterpart doesnot have an idea what I / my customers want. So: switch to China of Vietnam: there the exporeters master their English very well, or are even the returned children of the fugitives, who grew up in Australia, Canada, US of Europe: equal market knowledge to me, equal attitude, as they grew uop here !

When Thailand doesnot change very quick, in 5-10 years their export is wiped out for 50 % or more.

I do busines with Thailand since 1976, lived in TH for a few years, started my own Co Ltd in 1995, butsince the last 2 years, 30 % comes now from China, 10 % from Vietnam, 5% Sri Lanka, 5 % from India, and all growing.

Thai origin goes like Suvarnabhumi airport: sinking in Cobra Swamp, but everybody pointing to others to blame.

[SeanBangkok]

"If you make 20k Baht a month in Thailand, you could make a decent living."

Maybe outside Bangkok, but its hard to believe that anyone can survive on 20K baht/month.

Almost all of the studio apartments Ive seen are atleast 10K baht a month around the skytrain and subway areas. Perhaps cheaper if you live outside Greater Bangkok.

That means you have 10K baht left for all other expenses? 333 baht/day? LOL.

How many months you have to save up for a plane ticket home.

If you take a taxi/BTS to work each day that is 20% of your left over money.

I really do not see how anyone can live well off $20K baht/month inside Bangkok... And if Thai people think that anyone with a degree is going to work for that amount, three words Student Loan Repayment... These people owe $400-500/month in loan payments anyways.

[klikster]

When you compare these "teachers" with qualified teachers, it's like comparing a horse and donkey.

Doggone shame .. insulting donkeys .. or horses .. that way.

[thai_narak]

I am really happy to see this. I meet so many people here under fake degrees and many admitt it to me like it is some kind of joke. Get those people out of here.

But maybe if they are good teacher without a degree (there are some) Maybe the system can work out that they keep said job while attending at a local uni here that offers English classes.

For me I have a degree in Family and Marriage consoling. With only a BA I can't do crap with it back in the US. I can do lots of low level paperwork jobs for child services etc or work phones some place. While I could obtain a Dr. in my field and with 10 years of experience have the potential to make 100k a year I don't wish to persue this line of work. SO I can get an MS in my field 3 years of experience and get 30k a year. Or get some entry level job at get 20-25k a year. I said I would rather try teaching before I commit to studying more or begin my climb of the ladder. So making 25k a month before tutoring etc is great, I found out I love it and I plan to get my TEFL. After living here for a few years I will return home with my soon to be wife (She has a BA in English and a Inter. TEFL MS degree and is bilingual) will return home and I will get a job at a university and brush up on my spanish. Then get a teaching cert if I want to do teaching in a non university setting. After the kids grow up I can return with a Masters and years of experience and get a comfy job at an international school.

Is that like Counceling?

You are typical of the Elitist snobs that exist in the world. Why not do someting you are qualified to do?

Secondly, you were teaching BEFORE you did the TEFL, which makes you even more unsuitable and criminal.

God help Thailand if you elitist left wing nutters ever get over here in number.

This is a comma by the way ,,,,,,, we put them in sentences, espescially long, meandering gibbering wrecks of sentence like yours. We also put full stops at the end..... Usually!

We don't ususally pull people up for crap English on here, but as yours is so dreadful, and you have set yourself up as better than most TEFL teachers here, thought I better redden a few of your worse remarks. Most of your sentences need totally re-writing BTW, I suggest you get an ape to proof read your next post. Your English here wouldn't get you a high school leaving certificate, believe me.

I agree, some of the posters here cannot even write proper english and yet they are saying that they can teach english subjects. Really amazing...

[Ijustwannateach]

Amazing how these types of thread bring out a curiously high number of cranky low post-count members who all have spelling issues, in and of themselves and with each other... we don't seem most of them in the Teacher's Forum usually... gosh, where could they have come from?

[Momo8]

CONSOLING? COUNCELING? Definitely in need of English lessons.

Edited January 31, 2007 by Momo8

[klikster]

Sawasdee khrub,

This comment of yours shows you don't have any clue about the conditions in Thailand.

And you do?

Fact is, most of the farangs in Thailand are no more than the waste of their own society they come from.

If so, please provide your source of said statistics ..

.. and further, please state into which group (waste or non-waste) you fall?

[Petesear]

There are good teachers with and without degrees.

Three years ago the Thai Government started a project to have all foreign teachers qualified with a Thai qualification, this was done through the Bansomdejchaopraya Rajabhat University. I was on the pilot course. We were told that in order to get a work permit, as a teacher, everyone would need to do this course. It is my understanding that foreign qualifications were checked. Does anyone if this course is still up and running?

The standard of English spoken by many Thai students is poor but can you blame that 100% on the teachers without looking at the quality of the students and their ability to learn?

By the way, I live here but don't teach.

[wilko]

John Mark Karr (the guy who 'confessed' to the JonBenet Ramsay murder) was arrested in Bangkok and was working as a teacher. I think you'll find this is the reason for the crackdown. It's also the probable reason for the 90 limit on visa on arrival renewals.

Old hat mate.....he was also a qualified teacher who was found not guilty.

[Tony Clifton]

Thai Immigration Cracks Down On Foreign Teachers, 60 FOREIGN TEACHERS FACE DEPORTATION

250 more volunteer Chinese teachers gather in Thailand

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...p;#entry1112034

HERE THEY COME!

Edited January 31, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[rogerinthai]

Why doesn't the Thai government set up a testing (not training!) 'place' for anybody (foreigner) who applies for a teaching license in Thailand?

Because, the point is to kick out more foreign teachers, not to let them have an excellent chance to stay.

[klikster]

Amazing how these types of thread bring out a curiously high number of cranky low post-count members who all have spelling issues, in and of themselves and with each other... we don't seem most of them in the Teacher's Forum usually... gosh, where could they have come from?

Oops?

[mark lamai]

"as the whole thing is just a big joke." as neeranam said.

hard to believe this topic gets everyone going.

do not take it seriously! teaching english in thailand is a joke.

preface: except for a few schools with some genuine educational mission, the following is true everywhere.

1. teachers are not expected to teach.

2. students are not expected to learn.

3. the thai teachers disrespect you and are probably envious and bitchy.

4. its simply a revenue generator for the school.

5. you are being ripped off, wage should be minimum 60K for anyone.

6. quals don't matter much to make a thai english teacher.

7. compare a mattayom 6 english student to a year 12 french student in australia and the thai student would be 4-6 years behind in comparable ability.

this writer is a fully qualified and registered teacher in australia with some years thai teaching experience.

the biggest joke i ever encountered was being interviewed by and giving a demo lesson to a filipina 'manager' in a thai school. you cannot be serious!!

(yes, i didn't get the job)

i have seen the alcoholics, junkies and weirdos; having a qualification does not ensure good character.

its a joke, do not take it seriously and you will survive and not go crazy.

[Petesear]

Amazing how these types of thread bring out a curiously high number of cranky low post-count members who all have spelling issues, in and of themselves and with each other... we don't seem most of them in the Teacher's Forum usually... gosh, where could they have come from?

Oops?

Sorry, shouldn't Teachers' Forum? Or are you the only one??

[pumpuiman]

CONSOLING? COUNCELING? Definitely in need of English lessons.

I wondered if anyone saw that

It's "Counseling" by the way.

Wow.

Place foot firmly in mouth, and begin speaking.

[s.pylos]

To obtain a work permit to work legally in Thailand for a year, one of the requirements is to have a university degree........

This is a current loophole in the Thai recruitment regulations, which has allowed pedophiles, radically under-qualified individuals and other undesirables to teach in Thai schools.

So a paedophile with a degree is allowed to teach???

I am sorry this just typical of the muddled, knee jerk thinking employed by Thai officials.

With Expact blessing at times!

[sandy]

[Momo8]

You mean COUNSELLING????

[Trev]

I believe that a degree is the requirement to teach English, but does this apply to teaching other subjects?

This is not an uncommon criterion for teachers of all subjects, around the world.

I the UK many teachers do not have degrees

Ah - if only you knew. ALL teachers in the UK MUST have a degree in teaching - they either attend a teachers training college where they gain not only their degree but also vast experience in teaching technigues or must do a further 2 years doing a teachers degree once they have finished a normal degree at a university.

My ex spent 5 years at university / college to gain her teachers quilifications - not the 10 weeks it takes with TEFL

Why would anyone not allow the children of this country the same rights to quality education that they would want for their own children in other countries, or that we ourselves enjoyed?

I have met teachers working in schools who are TEFL trained, whose second or sometimes third language is English and I have not been able to understand what they were saying when speaking to me in English, and I am naive English born.

Yes the quality of teaching needs to be improved and in line with this the level of pay - Fully qualified teachers will only be able to get the level of salary they rightly deserve when there is a shortage of teachers available - and this will only be highlighted when they crack down on poorly trained, bad english speaking stop gaps.

The future of a Nation rests in its children and this generation has a duty to the next to ensure it gets the best possible eduction from the best trained people.

A quote to remember - we do not own the Earth, we only borrow it from future Generations

Phuketdiver

Excellent post! The same goes for Canada and New Zealand. I know this to be the case as I was trained in Canada and began my teaching career there before spending 5 years teaching in NZ.

I think a big issue here is the disregard as teaching as a profession. As was previously mentioned you would not go to other professionals such as doctors, lawyers and accountants if they had no training in a given field so why is it seen to be acceptable to have educators who have not been trained as teachers. I have a BA degree as well as a BEd degree as do all the teachers I teach with and have taught with in the past (in one form or another depending on where they come from). We have been trained not only in our specific subject area but also in the specific skill of teaching. I do not consider myself a mathematician, even though that is my specialist subject, I consider myself a teacher who happens to teach mathematics.

That being said, I completely accept that there are plenty of unqualified individuals who are doing a fine job teaching English here in Thailand. Unfortunately, an institution and country have a much better chance of getting such quality people if they have strict requirements for employment. Requiring a teacher to have degree is by no means a guarantee to getting a good teacher, but it is an effective method of increasing the odds (especially if an education degree is also required) and is used in most developed countries, so why not here.

Perhaps a solution that might be feasible is offering foreign unqualified teachers in Thailand an opportunity to get some sort of qualification by combining credit for past experience (awarded on merit, not simply to anyone who has filled a seat at the front of a class) with some sort of training. It would serve three purposes. Dedicated and effective teachers will be rewarded and encouraged to stay in the system, undesirables will likely fail or even more likely not want to make the effort and Thailand will be improving its quality of education without sacrificing an unworkable amount of teachers.

It's just a thought that I think is very do-able. Any teacher worth his/her salt is going to be up for the opportunity. Let's face it, even teachers who are properly trained and have a lot of experience need and get regular professional development. This would be just another form of professional development where everybody wins.

[gudy]

I do understand why using fake degrees is a deportable offence.

I do not understand why Thailand requires a college degree of native language English teachers who are working in non-elite schools and earning 20K baht a month, or whatever the current average lousy pay rate is for that job. How can Thailand expect to attract native language English teachers WITH degrees for that low pay? The answer seems to me to be to raise the pay (bloody unlikely) or drop the degree requirement. There are lots of people that can be competent English teachers without a degree and there are those with degrees that are not competent. I could see beefing up the TEFL requirements so that the courses actually screen people out who can't teach.

do you real think that is the point ? what will happen if all good thai studends,now suddenly also can speak english-----> brain drain to Usa or something like that

better to keep them to there native language,so they can stay in the whole world of thailand )))) and of course now with the airport disaster...its better to refocus on the all those milions of bad foreigners...... that's my opinion

Edited January 31, 2007 by gudy

[Heng]

The important thing is that they are at least taking steps to *try* to screen out the non-qualified.

Better screen out the incompetent rather than the non-qualified. And how to do that? Fire 90% of the Thai English teachers. Or at least let them complete a basic English test...

I think a happier medium can be found if folks are less emotional about it all.

Right - bend over, pack your bags and leave, and do it with a big smile

More like, stand yourself back up (from the bent over position), pack your bags and leave, smile optional... if you don't have a degree or can't find away to break the rules without getting caught.

[gudy]

Geting rid off teachrs is tipical, first expatts now us teeachrs we does a good job for this contry, who can tell them how to speech properly now, its bad enohugh gettin a order right in K.fC as it is, up to them, you can get digrees on the internet now anyway,so thay can't check evryone,can thay?

Thank you soooooooooo much , you've make my day bright.... long time ago that I've laugh so much...........looking forward to your next post ))))

Edited January 31, 2007 by gudy

[Laulen]

There are lots of people that can be competent English teachers without a degree and there are those with degrees that are not competent. I could see beefing up the TEFL requirements so that the courses actually screen people out who can't teach.

very few competent teachers without a degree I would think...go home and get one!

those with degrees not nec competent...yep...

TEFL quals: mostly junk quals from rip-off colleges.....you get what you pay for....

Be careful what you say about TEFL qualifications. It depends on the organisation delivering them, the competence of tutors, and the commitment of participants as to the successful outcome and aim of producing teachers capable of using and applying teaching techniques.

After that, the real 'acid test' is in the classroom itself, with regular peer-group feedback and occasional outside evaluation. TEFL qualifications start at the Certificate level and go on to the Diploma level. There is a world of difference between the two.

If these qualifications are acceptable within a country like the United Kingdom and some other European countries, backed up by professional experience, with or without a degree, then I do not see why Thailand feels it should act differently.

The world is over-regulated as it is already, and it will not stop these nasty individuals who wish to exploit the system to pursue their own perverted interests!

[Baccusboy]

I'm an American teacher at a university in South Korea. We're going through the same business here, and of course, it's the foreigner's fault (typical Korean thinking) that Koreans never check references. Until a few years ago, university degrees weren't checked. Now we're required to present sealed transcripts. The seal must be from the university where we obtained our BA, and have a signature over the seal. They must be recent transcripts.

This all came about a few years ago, when it was discovered that a bellhop from New York was teaching with a fake Ph.D (he didn't even have a BA) at Konkuk University in Seoul, and reportedly making over $70,000 per year US doing it. The funny thing was he had been there at least a few years or more, and was rumored to be one of the favorite professors (student reviews). He was "publishing" his own materials to an online site (which he also created) and making additional money for that, too. A friend who worked with him said the guy was an incredible con, and he knew how to push all of the right buttons with Koreans and other foreigners as well.

Eventually, the guy was discovered and someone narked. It hit the newspapers, embarrassed the university, and led to the discovery of many more illegal teachers around Korea who either fled or got caught.

More recently, people have been paying attention to the numbers of Korean professors with "purchased" degrees from overseas degree mills. They caught many Korean professors in Incheon recently (articles about this seem to have "disappeared"), and I think they stopped checks out of fear of national embarrassment. Last year, over 100 Koreans who purchased illegal music degrees were busted ( http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/200603/kt2...17211710440.htm )I can name one friend who works for a national Korean university, and stated that other foreigners at his school are paid to write MA and Ph.D papers for Koreans seeking degrees from Western schools. Of course, these situations are barely a blip on the radar of the Korean press.

Just recently, the head of Korea University, one of the top schools in the nation, was caught plagiarizing ( http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edi...nal/180685.html ), as was the Education Minister here ( http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200...17055511950.htm ).

Cheating is a serious problem in this country. I think you all have heard of a certain Dr. Hwang, who falsified stem cell advances/research ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4532128.stm ).

For purposes of comparison, the typical foreign teacher in Korea starts at a "language academy" at around 2 million won per month -- just over $2,000/month US at 3.3% local income tax and an exemption from tax back home, in general -- housing included). That's how I started. I worked my way up the food chain to a high school, and then on to a uni in 4 years. I stay here because I've learned how to play the game, and secured one of the better jobs available to someone with my experience.

Did I mention that teaching private lessons, which is illegal and will get you deported/fined, pay around $40 US per hour? Thousands from Canada come here and work on 6-month tourist visas and pull in some major illegal coin -- often in excess of $5,000 per month. Americans only get one month touris visas -- stretched to three after immigration approval -- so it's not a lucrative option for them to fly back and forth to Japan so much for visa renewal. Many legal teachers teach illegal privates on the side, but they risk fines of up to $5,000 and jail/deportation if they are caught.

Even with pay like this, most foreigners bail from Korea within a year, given the nutty visa rules, cheating bosses who lie directly to your face, and xenophobic anti-foreigner vibes from many (but not all) in the community here. If you are here on an E2 Teaching Visa, and quit your job, you are bound to that contract and cannot get another legal job until that contract expires. This falls back to the old slave mentality of the Korean slave/worker owner/boss relationship. This gives schools a lot of power to screw with you and your wages. Your choices are to quit and fight it (jobless, waiting for a good month before it goes to trial) or just leave. Not good options.

A post I read on another board this week highlighted a foreigner who was fined 2.5 million won ($2,500 US) for providing an improper school name on his resume. Apparently, the school operated under a totally different name than its business license, but it was HIS fault for not knowing the correct name of the place he worked at years prior ( http ://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=74946 ).

Welcome to Korea.

The Korean press (and government) has done its best to make most problems with Korea to be the fault of foreigners. They do the same thing as what I'm reading you guys type about Thailand -- low pay (compared to cost of living) and expecting highly-qualified English teachers to flock here for work. The truth is that the pay is much higher than Thailand, and you can save money here. The big difference, however, is that Korea is definitely NOT Thailand. Life is a lot more expensive here, and closing in on Japan in many ways.

[globez]

China's the way forward believe me.

So true! Even Vietnam where you easily make $2000/month without the endless paperwork! It's understandable that Thailand cracks down on teachers with fake degrees, it's been going on for years.

I wonder about the government project!!??? Do they still allow people without degrees now Taksin is gone...

[steves_the_1]

In a country which is run muppets and where you need to have a Bachelors degree and x amount of years experience just to get a <deleted> job as receptionist what do you all expect.