Fighting For Our Rights In Thailand!

[britainmal]

This is to foreignal nationals that are interested in staying in Thailand ,but what want to be recongnized by Thai government that we are contribiuting to The Thai ecomony and to the well being of the country. We are not a threat to Thai blood if we become citizens and that we would make Thailand a very richer country. How can we make our voices heard? Any ideas please respond? If you don't have anything positive to say about this cause then don't reply please.

[davethailand]

i think thats the million dollar question, i would love to hear the answer.

[splitlid]

so many people viewing this thread and only 2 replies suggest to me that nobody has any ideas.(sensible ones anyway)

Im sure that this has been tried time and time again but has always fallen on deaf ears.

i think the trouble is that the government really dosnt care about us,as long as we keep our noses clean and spend our dollar they are happy to keep the situation as it is.

why change something that works in their eyes.

[simon43]

Well, you did say don't respond if you have nothing positive to say. The deafening silence may well suggest to you that this path has been gone down before. It's a no-hoper

[chingy_]

well we can start by sending the wife or gf to do a protest, after all they are thai national

[Indo-Siam]

I simply have a neutral comment:

Thailand has very clearly laid out, standardized, and achievable procedures for:

1. Entering Thailand on a non-immigrant status, and then obtaining and renewing extended entry permits.

2. After a qualifying period in long-term non-immigrant status, applying for and receiving permanent resident status.

3. After a qualifying period in permanent resident status, applying for and being awarded Thai citizenship.

Technically, Thailand is a constitutional monarchy - but one that functions as a parliamentary democracy. I have no reason to believe that even a significant minority (say,perhaps 5%) of the 60+ million Thais have any major dissatisfaction with Thai immigration laws.

What non-Thais think is up to the individual. As far as I can see, immigration rules in Thailand are fairly comparable to those of most other democratic countries in the world, when considering immigrants from outside specific trade blocs - i.e. between EU nations.

Tourism is welcome, and important, to many nations - including Thailand. Tourism means come - spend money - and leave. As far as I can see, Thailand is very welcoming to tourists.

Thailand strongly welcomes tourists, and it routinely allows legal immigration. The only visitors who face problems are illegal immigrants. Thailand does not seem to feel that illegal immigrants should be treated better just because they spend some money here. This does not seem to be outside the norm for sovereign nations.

So - I'm not sure I see that there is a controversial issue here - or anything that needs fixing.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[britainmal]

Well, Thai immigartion laws are not compariable to the EU because we disscussed in other forums that it is much easier for a Thai to get an EU citizenship compared to a male foreigner getting Thai citizenship. PR is very hard to get . Don't forget they only grant 100 or so per year. Once you have PR then, You are guareented Thai citzenship. Thais have nothing to do with immigartion because it does not affect them. Don't forget their was a foreigner who took legal action against the Thai government for not allowing foreign males to obtain Thai citizenship through marriage. The court ruled that foreign males have many ways in order to obtain citizenship. Does the judges in the court know the word racist? This is the question? This decision could also apply to foreign females too, so the court was just avoiding the issue. The person did not go further, if the person went further then maybe the governemnt would have woken up. So , all you people who think that protesting to the govenrment won't change a thing are wrong because the more people that get involved will make a change . If you get the UN even to just comment on the issue or a western government will make a change, but coming up with a good ides is the hard task at work.

[LivinLOS]

Thailand has very clearly laid out, standardized, and achievable procedures for:

1. Entering Thailand on a non-immigrant status, and then obtaining and renewing extended entry permits.

Thats simply not true... Sorry to labour my point in multiple threads but please explain how a under 50, unmarried male, financially secure and with no need or desire to continue working, goes about an achievable, standardized procedure to enter Thailand on a non immigrant status and renewing the same ??

[lambada]

The other aspect of the original comment that has not been looked at in this thread is the issue of ownership and land. This is surely the key issue not citizenship although closely related. It seems to be at least part of the initial comment. I would imagine that most of us are more concerned about protecting investments and homes than Nationality. After all I am a British citizen with Australian citizenship but Hong Kong residency. The Hong Kong residency does not concern me because I can invest and purchase land / property if I wish in Hong Kong. I can get permanent residency after 7 years. No doubt this issue has been thrashed out many times but it's resolution could do more to assist Thailand's development than many other things. After all Australia is still australian even though large chunks of it are owned by the Japanese, English and probably Thais.

[Indo-Siam]

LivinLOS -

Very simple - the rules are laid out clearly, as I stated. You do not have to work - you just have to invest two million baht in a company, hire four Thais, and occupy a paid directorship position. If you hire wisely, you do not have to "work."

The rules are simple and clear. You just don't like them. Tough. 60+ million Thais like them. I don't have a problem with them. I followed these rules - and I am here long-term, without difficulty.

As I see it, the only things Thais don't like are "drones" - the definition of which so perfectly fits many malcontents here: "A male bee, characteristically stingless, performing no work, and producing no honey, whose only function is to mate." I tend to agree that Thailand has enough drones of their own, so I can see where they would not be interested in importing more from overseas.

Another dictionary definition of "drone": A loafer, sluggard.

So - Thailand doesn't want loafers and sluggards - even wealthy ones who spend a lot. OK, so that seems like a reasonable decision to me.

Britanmal -

Most folks have the wrong story abouyt Residency- and citizenship. It is easy to QUALIFY to APPLY for residency - and they do have a quota of 100 per nationality per year. But - they are EXTREMELY selective in actually approving residency - this year, only nine (9) non-Asians have made it to the final selection process - and those who made it have tremendous personal credentials here. Most applicants apply several times before being approved - if ever. Very few westerners get citizenship. Probably a couple each year. Then again, not that many wetserners want Thai citizenship.

Indo-Siam

[britainmal]

Ok , Thank you for answering that question. So, There are no quotas on giving PR. They only pick people with big

credentinals. Let me quote you a

statement said by Minstry of labour, She said,"We are increasing the requirements on foreigners to obtains visa because we want to make it difficult for foreigners to settle in Thailand, We only want foreigner that will benefit the Thai people." She does not really care about the people with credentials because they are only here to benefit the Thai blood. How many immigants does western countries permit in. I know Australia has 280,000 a yeard limit on foreigners entering the country for citzenship. How many did Thailand 150 a year and a few granted citizenship. This is so funny and racist. They also need unskilled labour because a lot of Thais are jumping Taxi drivers, tuk drivers, tourist realted industries. They are allowing migrants from neigbouring countries to come into Thaialnd work and leave with no rights at

the same time not changing the job restriction law. On the Thai consualte website

it does not say PR is only given to a few with big credentials, so this is wrong and racist. They need to open Thailand from a homegunis socieyt to a

mutliculture socity.

[Indo-Siam]

Thailand is positively welcoming compared to Japan - try getting citizenship there - and it's the third largest economy in the world. Or try Korea.

Every Brit I know in Thailand thinks the UK is going to ###### in a handbasket, because it makes it too esay for foreign riff-raff to enter.

Every Canadian I know says the same thing. So do most Americans - and so do most Aussies.

So - I think your argument is backwards. Thailand has a good policy - keep the bar high. Its the other countries that are making the mistake - and I see them all in decline - literally. Thailand is on an upward trajectory, as far as I can see.

I think Thailand does a pretty good job of regulating immigration.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

[penelope]

So you wanna invoke change ? You'll need allies.

1) who do you know of power and/or influence in thailand ?

2) why should they support your cause given that they really have nothing to gain from it ?

[thaimee]

We are increasing the requirements on foreigners to obtains visa because we want to make it difficult for foreigners to settle in Thailand, We only want foreigner that will benefit the Thai people." She does not really care about the people with credentials because they are only here to benefit the Thai blood. How many immigants does western countries permit in. I know Australia has 280,000 a yeard limit on foreigners entering the country for citzenship. How many did Thailand 150 a year and a few granted citizenship. This is so funny and racist.

No, not funny, but yes very R-a-c-i-s-t!! Even the not so high-class Thai people have no rights!! Unfortunately the Kingdom is part owned by a few rich Thai-Chinese families. They are the corruptors of opportunity and human dignity!

Oh, Welcome to Amazing Thailand.

Thaimee.

[mandl]

It is their country. Indo-Siam has a point that many other countries have been too loose with their immigration policies. Many of them are tightening their policies since 9/11 though.

A lot of good points are made in these posts. The Thais have nothing to gain by allowing us (non-Thais) to become permanent residents or citizens. They get our money the way the system works now. Why should they change it? There are too few farangs in Thailand to effect any change in this policy.

Some of us may not like their policies (apparently some do not) but there is not much that can be done about them. This is not America or Australia or The UK where media attention can be focused on a perceived problem. This is Thailand. I say live with it.

mandl

[LivinLOS]

1) who do you know of power and/or influence in thailand ?

2) why should they support your cause given that they really have nothing to gain from it ?

I know many influential people locally from ex politicians to high ranking police to major entertainment venue owners... They all agree that more farangs are welcome (possibly except the police friends) and they all benefit directly from both the tourist and direct foriegn investment that comes with this... Remember Thailand is not a first world country and in general benefits from rich people coming here to spend thier money.

A lot of good points are made in these posts. The Thais have nothing to gain by allowing us (non-Thais) to becoming permanent residents or citizens. They get our money the way the system works now. Why should they change it? There are too few farangs in Thailand to effect any change in this policy.

Because if they allowed high spending people to live here and bring direct foriegn investment the 'trickle down effect' benefits the whole economy... Also by creating a climate where it is safer to bring your money into Thailand (say land ownership rights) far far more would come.. .Prices would rise and again Thais would directly benefit from this..

[opalhort]

Thailand is positively welcoming compared to Japan - try getting citizenship there - and it's the third largest economy in the world.  Or try Korea.

Every Brit I know in Thailand thinks the UK is going to ###### in a handbasket, because it makes it too esay for foreign riff-raff to enter.

Every Canadian I know says the same thing.  So do most Americans - and so do most Aussies.

So - I think your argument is backwards.  Thailand has a good policy - keep the bar high.  Its the other countries that are making the mistake - and I see them all in decline - literally.  Thailand is on an upward trajectory, as far as I can see.

I think Thailand does a pretty good job of regulating immigration.

Cheers!

Indo-Siam

very well said Indo-Siam!

it appears that Thailand has learnt from the mistakes many western countries made in the past when they were in need of cheap labour. Thailand is doing very well regarding immigration issues.

Thailand, the Thai people and the Thai laws are anything but racist!

Yes, there are different rules for different nationalities but NOT for different races!

For example, an American passport holder is an American under the immigration law regardless of his race (caucasian, afro-american, hispanic etc.).

There is a difference between the west and Asia about gender equality, this is true but this is a matter of Asian culture and has nothing to do with racism!

Thailand has done a great job regarding gender equality over the past few years as required by the latest constitution. A lot more needs to be done in this regard, but I'm sure that eventually it will be done. The wheels of bureaucracy grind slowly in every country of the world.

opalhort

[mandl]

Because if they allowed high spending people to live here and bring direct foriegn investment the 'trickle down effect' benefits the whole economy... Also by creating a climate where it is safer to bring your money into Thailand (say land ownership rights) far far more would come.. .Prices would rise and again Thais would directly benefit from this..

Not sure I agree with that. The land ownership is an issue that sticks in the craw of many farangs in Thailand. If farangs were allowed to own land, what I see happening is that farangs (and large companies) would quickly buy up all the prime land at prices that are much more than the worth of the land. It's been said in other posts that most farangs working in LOS make a great deal more money than their Thai counterparts. How can one expect the Thais to be able to compete in the land/housing market under those circumstances? Many Thais would be priced out of their own land, much as we are here in America to some degree.

I would like to see changes that would make it more convenient for farangs to live in LOS for extended periods of time without the hassles of the current visa laws. However, realistically, I do not expect those things to get any better in my lifetime.

mandl

[Thaiquila]

I think it is up to the Thai government what to do. We as foreign individuals have no power in this matter and there is no logical reason why we should have power. The only way to have any power would be through the power of our foreign governments, and they sure aren't interested.

That said, I wonder if a very modest goal is possible. I don't really think so, but it wouild be nice. That goal is CLEAR CONSISTENT COMMUNICATION of official policies in English in a single, central place run by the Thai government, that would serve as the definitive source for good CURRENT information about visas and immigration. I would think it would ultimately be in the best interest of both the Thai government and foreigners to make things clearer for all concerned.

For example, the controversy about whether 3 or 10 million baht is required for an investment visa. Why does there have to be that kind of confusion?

[Axel]

The last point by mandl does make really sense. Open up the country to foreigners to buy land and you get the same situation as experienced in the 80ies on Hawaii. Americans and worse, local Haiwaiians could not afford to buy a small plot to build their own house, because foreign investors just paid too much.

Would Thailand wish to be in a similar situation?

Very often I hear the reference to Thai-Chinese running the country. I agree that this is true to a certain extent, although one could add the Thai-Indians. Both, however, are Thais for generations ethnically of different origin.

Some 120/130 years ago the Chinese have been fighting for equal rights and finally got such rights. Today we cannot blame them for that anymore.

Today you want to "Fight For Our Rights In Thailand". OK, let's fight, but a who are we? Caucasians? Americans, Europeans?

Let's build a group of people with the same interest, just a couple thousands of us and I am sure within a few decades we will succeed, same as the Chinese did.

[penelope]

1) who do you know of power and/or influence in thailand ?

2) why should they support your cause given that they really have nothing to gain from it ?

I know many influential people locally from ex politicians to high ranking police to major entertainment venue owners... They all agree that more farangs are welcome (possibly except the police friends) and they all benefit directly from both the tourist and direct foriegn investment that comes with this... Remember Thailand is not a first world country and in general benefits from rich people coming here to spend thier money.

Great.You have some artillery at your disposal. Now you have talked the talk...how are you going to use these tools to walk the talk ??

[Axel]

I think it is up to the Thai government what to do. We as foreign individuals have no power in this matter and there is no logical reason why we should have power. The only way to have any power would be through the power of our foreign governments, and they sure aren't interested....

Sure, if at all the best way would be through the government(s) involved. I am waiting for some cosntructive proposals now from LivinLOS how to fight, with who to fight and where to fight.

To the smaller problems on immigration information, tongue in cheek, would ThaiVisa be happy about this? They could go out of business.

[thaimee]

This is Thailand. I say live with it.

mandl

Yes. I say live with it but don't fall into the trap of acceptance. Good Living folk...

Thaimee.

[samran]

I know Australia has 280,000 a yeard limit on foreigners entering the country for citzenship. 

Britainmal(content),

You do yourself no favours by filling your arguments with "facts" that "you know" that actually have no basis. Does nothing for your argument.

On this point, last year Australia accepted about 120,000 new migrants. This goes up to about 140,000 if you include NZ citizens who can live and work in Australia without any restrictions. No where near 280,000 migrants that you claim.

All these people (except NZ citizens) have to apply to migrate to Australia, and have to pass very stringent criteria in terms of education, work expereince and having skills that are in demand in the Australian economy. If approved, they are given permanent residency, the whole process takes about 1 year to 18 months.

Otherwise, they don't get in. Check out www.immi.gov.au as I know you have an aversion what I say.

Thailand on the otherhand, while it doesn't hand out citizenships willy nilly, makes it compatitively easy (when compared to Australia, NZ, Canada, UK) for foreigners to live and work here, pretty much indefinetly. Indo-siam articulated this very well I think.

You seem to think that it is "easy" to get a western citizenship versus a Thai citizenship. To be fair to you, it is easy for spouses (a minority) to get Western nationality when compared to Thai nationality, but that is not the point here.

Most western countries are very selective regarding who they let in the door to begin with. Thailand isn't (witness numerous foreign drones living and working here). For people who aren't spouses (the majority), it is very very difficult to move to a western country, let alone get citizenship.

You once claimed to me that most western countries don't have explicit restrictions of foreigners on working in certain industries. While true, it is actually a meaningless point. You see, while western countries don't have explicit restrictions, most simply don't hand out work permits for low skilled jobs to being with, thus protecting against foreign workers.

The countries (like Israel, UAE, Saudi) for instance, actually import Labour (guest workers) for jobs locals don't want to do. If you check the visa conditions for these jobs, you probably will find that the visas don't lead to any form of residency or eventual citizenship. Thailand does not really have a guest worker programme, as it has decided that Thai jobs should be filled by Thai labour wherever possible.

One final point about Thai law being "racist". If it was racist, it would make no provision for foreign females getting preferential access to Thai nationality.

I actually think that if I was a Thai law maker, I would be hesitant in giving automatic/foreign citizenship to foreign males based on marriage as well, otherwise, I would have plane loads of fat sex tourists who would be eligable for Thai citizenship. Something that Thailand could do without me thinks.

[britainmal]

Thank for all your opinions on this matter whether you agree or not. We are fighting as foreigners for our rights not as just Europeans or Americans. Now don't forget we can all lease land here in Thailand for a long time, so why isn't Thailand sold out to foreigners already and anyway land in Thaiand is already expense now because you have all the rich Thais and Chinese Thais buying up the land. A house in Bangkok can go for 100 million baht. This is not foreigners driving up the prices ,but rich Thais. In Hawaii, Most ethnic Hawaiians are very poor and can afford to buy land. Ethnic Hawaiians are poor like Native Americans. This problem of buying up Thaialnd is already happening and is be caused by Thais themselves not foreigners. I think this involves racism and protecting the Thailand economy from foreigners. Also , Americans can own up to 100 percent of a Thai company. So, why isn't America buying up the Thai corporate community ? A little to think about.

[britainmal]

So,

Samran Thank you for correcting me. Australia accepted last year 140000 immigrants and Thailand accepted for Pr how much? One hundred and something. How funny you can say that? Western Countries including Australia are multicultred something Thailand isn't samran. Those fat ugly sex tourist that come to Thailand bring those girls happeniess somthing that you don't .There would have to rules not just marry a girl and get Thai citizenship ,but have to

live with

the girl for a certain time in order to get citzenship and rules. The same as females getting Thailand citizenship.

citizenship througn marriage they still have to follow rules. I know Thailand is not the only country with a racist immigartion policy, but Thailand has the most foreigners living in the country compared to other asia countries

So, they need to change. The process to get Thai

PR is ten times harder than a Western PR. They only pick a few each year and the competion for Thai PR is very very compeitiive. Remenber Samran you jumped the ladder for Thai citizenship because your Mum is already Thai.

[samran]

Australia accepted last year 140000 immigrants and Thailand accepted for Pr how much? One hundred and something.  How funny you can say that? 

The only way to live legally long term in most western countries is to have some sort of settled/PR status.

But, how many westerners are living Long Term in Thailand on some sort of non-immigrant visa/visa runner status. Thousands perhaps?. For all intents and purposes, they can live here as long as they want as long as they follow the rules. None were vetted before they were allowed in, and anyone who one day decides "I want to move to Thailand" simply can (unlike moving to the west).

Remenber Samran you jumped the ladder for Thai citizenship because your Mum is already Thai.

And that annoys you the most that I have Thai citizenship and I am sticking up for Thailand and her laws. Even if I wasn't a Thai national I would still think your arguments are full of holes and self-serving.

[LivinLOS]

If farangs were allowed to own land, what I see happening is that farangs (and large companies) would quickly buy up all the prime land at prices that are much more than the worth of the land.

Yet I can already buy land via a company... Lets face it, any really high value piece of land is normally used for a commercial venture anyway. So we have a situation where Americans can use the 100% ownership loophole.. High value land can be corporate owned.. Etc...

I think there would be a modest effect on land values in high expat concentrated areas but as the system is now so open to abuse it seems logical to try to stem that abuse and common source of corruption.

Great.You have some artillery at your disposal. Now you have talked the talk...how are you going to use these tools to walk the talk ??

Well I dont know about walking the talk but all I have been able to do is have constructive discussions with these people to highlight issues as I percieve them... I dont know if you saw it but the Phuket gazette recently ran a piece stating that Phuket is being considered as a trial area for farang land ownership.. This has the backing of the ex mayor (highly connected and influencial in both biz and local politics) someone whom I have talked to on this issue personally.. Apart from lobbying and attempting to calm any irrational fears I am unsure what you feel a farang (soon to be demoted to 30 day tourist !! ) is able to achieve. Lets face it I have no voting rights.

I am waiting for some cosntructive proposals now from LivinLOS how to fight, with who to fight and where to fight.

Your asking the wrong person... I am here asking the same... My response was to the post that said "who do you know and why should they help you" I know people with some limited local clout and they appear to agree with me.. why should they help.. Because it makes sense for Thailand.

If people are pointing out that land prices may rise I should point out who would be getting paid those higher prices ?? Thais with money from overseas !!!

[Bobcat]

It is easy to QUALIFY to APPLY for residency - and they do have a quota of 100 per nationality per year. But - they are EXTREMELY selective in actually approving residency - this year, only nine (9) non-Asians have made it to the final selection process - and those who made it have tremendous personal credentials here. Most applicants apply several times before being approved - if ever. Very few westerners get citizenship. Probably a couple each year. Then again, not that many wetserners want Thai citizenship.

Indo-Siam, I'm very curious about the above statement. Are you referring to those who applied for PR in December 2003 or are you referring to citizenship?

I applied for PR in December 2003 and went for my interview in March 2004. I happened to be one of eight Australians making an application. How do you know that only 9 non-asians have made it to the final selection process? This makes me very nervous. While I do not have tremendous personal credentials, I have a good, statble job, had all the necessary documents. I also speak Thai and my interview/test went really well. Do you know the total number of non-asians that applied for PR in 2003?

Do you know what the process is for being notified? I was told by the officer that I would find out in October/Novermber 2004.

Cheers,

Bob

Any information you have would be very much appreciated.

[britainmal]

How about we send a a peition to the immigration office at Sathon about us expaites not statisfyied we their racist immigration polices. Even if they ignore us and don't respone at least they how we feel.