Ministry decision on Muslim students’ dress code seen as divisive

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, rkidlad said:

there's a time and a place for your 'beliefs'. 

Then remove Muslim attendance in schools from Buddhist monastery property and allow Muslim public schools outside Buddhist monastery property.

As it is the Kingdom of Thailand chooses that the time and place for Buddhism beliefs lies with all Thai public schools regardless of any conflicts of religious beliefs.

[rkidlad]

1 minute ago, Srikcir said:

Then remove Muslim attendance in schools from Buddhist monastery property and allow Muslim public schools outside Buddhist monastery property.

As it is the Kingdom of Thailand chooses that the time and place for Buddhism beliefs lies with all Thai public schools regardless of any conflicts of religious beliefs.

How about secular schools. Simple. 

[DrTuner]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

Utter nonsense, in the Middle East all people covered their hair, not only women, it was done to keep sand out of their hair, nothing to do with misogyny and there was no difference except in style between what men and women wore, it has nothing at all in common with chastity belts, in fact it has more in common with a t-shirt. 

Interesting. They got bad sandstorms down South then?

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Isn't it just the one post that has reference to that?

 

And what demand are you referencing?  Muslims in Thailand have not made a demand, the government have changed the law.

 

As for rules allying to everyone, how about the rule in Thailand that states that religious freedoms must be allowed?  Or does that one not apply to everyone?

Isn't there a law that says no one will be segregated?

 

[greenchair]

58 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

Then remove Muslim attendance in schools from Buddhist monastery property and allow Muslim public schools outside Buddhist monastery property.

As it is the Kingdom of Thailand chooses that the time and place for Buddhism beliefs lies with all Thai public schools regardless of any conflicts of religious beliefs.

There are many muslim schools in Thailand, my son went to one. 

We had to follow muslim rules. Such as he had to wear long pants. 

Was not allowed to play during prayer time. 

They did not provide any food during Ramadan. And if he ate in front of other children he was bullied. 

He was not allowed to eat ham at school or he was bullied. 

[NoshowJones]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Thailand is a secular country, and it hardly fair to refer to those from an old country that Thailand conquered and made a part of their country that they "want to live here", this is where they are from.

How much of the Thai population are Muslim, 5%, 8%? Do you expect the Thai people to change any part of their life to suit them?

[Mac98]

Let the girls dress as they please. After all, if girls go to Muslim countries they wouldn't be told what to wear. Right? Oh yeah, they shoot them if they go to school, so no problem.

[NoshowJones]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

If hair does not matter then why are we having this discussion about banning the head scarf?  The veil has never been a part of the school uniform, perhaps in part because only married women where them but also no doubt because the Muslims in Thailand do not wear them, so go and change the subject in another thread, we were busy discussing the law change not something happening in Saudi.

I didn't start any discussion about hair, if any school want's to ban the headscarf, anyone who does not like it does

not have to go there.

[NoshowJones]

1 hour ago, greenchair said:

I went to the bank the other day. I'm not allowed to wear a hat with sunglasses or any type of disguise when entering a bank. And yet there 2 muslim women  (or maybe men) with face veils right up to the eye and sunglasses on. 

 

It is just typical Thai mentality, allowing that to happen, not wanting to offend anyone, they should have been told to either take the face veil off or leave the premises immediately.

[Srikcir]

10 minutes ago, possum1931 said:

How much of the Thai population are Muslim, 5%, 8%? Do you expect the Thai people to change any part of their life to suit them?

How much of the Thai population are Muslim in the Southern Provinces, 90%, 95%? It has been the Kingdom of Siam/Thailand that expected those majority Muslim people of the former Kingdom of Patanni to change part of their life.

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, possum1931 said:

How much of the Thai population are Muslim, 5%, 8%? Do you expect the Thai people to change any part of their life to suit them?

 

They are Thai people, I suggest you learn the history of the country you live in and there are Muslims all over the South, this has nothing to do with the breakaway states, they won exemption to the school laws years ago anyway, this is about Muslims in Phuket, Trang, Surat, Bangkok and everywhere else, and this is not about Muslims trying to change anyone, this is about soldiers trying to change the Muslim school uniform option available in state schools, not sure what a school girl wearing a scarf could do to change a part of someone else's life.

Edited June 15, 2018 by Kieran00001
Sent to wrong person

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, greenchair said:

Isn't there a law that says no one will be segregated?

 

 

Protection of equality.

[Kieran00001]

3 hours ago, greenchair said:

There are many muslim schools in Thailand, my son went to one. 

We had to follow muslim rules. Such as he had to wear long pants. 

Was not allowed to play during prayer time. 

They did not provide any food during Ramadan. And if he ate in front of other children he was bullied. 

He was not allowed to eat ham at school or he was bullied. 

 

Bullied for eating in front of them while they were fasting? Typical parent, I bet he was taunting them.

[JemJem]

When it comes to females wearing Islamic attire, I always wonder what percentage of them do so because they really want to, as opposed to due to spouse/family/peer/neighborhood pressure. My wild guess is : possibly only around 50 percent.

 

Of course, this is for countries where it is not compulsory. In countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran, sadly, it is a matter of it being a must.

Edited June 15, 2018 by JemJem

[greenchair]

9 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

They are Thai people, I suggest you learn the history of the country you live in and there are Muslims all over the South, this has nothing to do with the breakaway states, they won exemption to the school laws years ago anyway, this is about Muslims in Phuket, Trang, Surat, Bangkok and everywhere else, and this is not about Muslims trying to change anyone, this is about soldiers trying to change the Muslim school uniform option available in state schools, not sure what a school girl wearing a scarf could do to change a part of someone else's life.

Well it does effect other students and the Muslims themselves. After putting on the scarf, they hang out in groups and will not mingle with others. If they talk to a boy that is not muslim, the head muslim kids report them down at the mosc and they get into serious trouble. If any muslim child has a problem, the other muslim children gang up together to attack. This also causes non muslim kids to form gangs amongst themselves to either protect themselves or even to gang up also. Did you know that all muslim girls keep a long needle thing inside their hijab. It is tucked behind the ear and can be used as a weapon. Also many muslim girls like to have earphones tucked in their ears, that prevents them from learning. Almost impossible for the teachers to see. The main reason the boys don't want to shave their hair and the girls want to wear the hijab is so that everyone knows who is in their gang. It's dangerous, it creates division. 

It shouldn't be allowed. 

[greenchair]

6 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Bullied for eating in front of them while they were fasting? Typical parent, I bet he was taunting them.

So what if he was. 

There you go again, justifying violence. 

Not his fault they don't want to eat all day long. 

[metisdead]

An off topic trolling post has been removed as well as the replies. 

[greenchair]

5 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

It’s not racist.

 

From what you’ve said it was a rational move. 

 

Did you complain about the chicken?

 

Did you put forward your objections?

Would they have done that if there was 1 vegetarian child. No. 

Would they have done that if there was 1 seventh day adventist child. No. 

So it's it's racist. 

[Bluespunk]

Just now, greenchair said:

Would they have done that if there was 1 vegetarian child. No. 

Would they have done that if there was 1 seventh day adventist child. No. 

So it's it's racist. 

 No it’s not racist. 

 

It was a perfectly reasonable decision. 

 

Now, again, did you voice your concerns and give the school an opportunity to act upon them?

 

Hormones introduced during the farming of chickens, wasn’t it? 

 

Do they still do that?

[greenchair]

2 minutes ago, Bluespunk said:

 No it’s not racist. 

 

It was a perfectly reasonable decision. 

 

Now, again, did you voice your concerns and give the school an opportunity to act upon them?

 

Hormones introduced during the farming of chickens, wasn’t it? 

 

Do they still do that?

You have missed the point. 

Stop avoiding. 

 

[Kieran00001]

18 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Well it does effect other students and the Muslims themselves. After putting on the scarf, they hang out in groups and will not mingle with others. If they talk to a boy that is not muslim, the head muslim kids report them down at the mosc and they get into serious trouble. If any muslim child has a problem, the other muslim children gang up together to attack. This also causes non muslim kids to form gangs amongst themselves to either protect themselves or even to gang up also. Did you know that all muslim girls keep a long needle thing inside their hijab. It is tucked behind the ear and can be used as a weapon. Also many muslim girls like to have earphones tucked in their ears, that prevents them from learning. Almost impossible for the teachers to see. The main reason the boys don't want to shave their hair and the girls want to wear the hijab is so that everyone knows who is in their gang. It's dangerous, it creates division. 

It shouldn't be allowed. 

 

These problems are unusual in Thaland and unrelated to headscarfs, your claim that these things happen after the headscarf goes on is laughable.

[Kieran00001]

18 minutes ago, greenchair said:

So what if he was. 

There you go again, justifying violence. 

Not his fault they don't want to eat all day long. 

 

Taunting is bullying, what you are describing is a bully getting beaten, it is his choice if he wants to taunt people, did you teach him to?

Edited June 15, 2018 by Kieran00001

[Bluespunk]

24 minutes ago, greenchair said:

You have missed the point. 

Stop avoiding. 

 

No I haven’t. 

 

You said there was a one option menu which included ham. 

 

The school, acting in a rational and reasonable manner, changed the menu because one child cannot eat ham. 

 

They changed it to chicken, which you say you object to because of added hormones (again, does this still happen), but is something most Thais eat. 

 

Now, if you have legitimate concerns about a school’s menu, you should tell the school. 

 

You should give them the opportunity to act on them. 

 

How are they supposed to respond if you don’t raise your concerns?

Edited June 15, 2018 by Bluespunk

[NoshowJones]

52 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

They are Thai people, I suggest you learn the history of the country you live in and there are Muslims all over the South, this has nothing to do with the breakaway states, they won exemption to the school laws years ago anyway, this is about Muslims in Phuket, Trang, Surat, Bangkok and everywhere else, and this is not about Muslims trying to change anyone, this is about soldiers trying to change the Muslim school uniform option available in state schools, not sure what a school girl wearing a scarf could do to change a part of someone else's life.

OK I respect what you are saying, but we should end this debate for obvious reasons, neither you or me is going to change our minds, so lets just end this debate now.

[futsukayoi]

6 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Utter nonsense, in the Middle East all people covered their hair, not only women, it was done to keep sand out of their hair, nothing to do with misogyny and there was no difference except in style between what men and women wore, it has nothing at all in common with chastity belts, in fact it has more in common with a t-shirt.  What happened was the hijab was mentioned in the Quran in a verse about modesty, women were instructed to use their head scarf to cover their breasts, and this grew into the scarf being enshrined into the religion, so it really is a religious principle.  And it really isn't all that you fear, Thailand has provided a school uniform head scarf for a long time, it is not a new idea so we know what happens, and many families do not make their daughters wear them, so you are just plain wrong, you're taken by your own paranoia.

 

Malaysia is a very different country to Thailand, they have an Islamic police force, Thailand has millions of Muslims that you would not even notice were Muslims because although having the choice to, chose not to wear hijabs, but ban the hijab and you will start to notice them, believe me, there will now be more bombs, and all over a false notion of freedom, you cannot tell other people how to exercise freedom, they have to choose that themselves.

 

All of the middle east wore head scarfs due to sandstorms ?  Good one but absolute rubbish.  There are loads of literary and artistic representations of people from that region not wearing headscarf.  Although your argument in any case accepts that it would have nothing to do with being Islamic attire and has no relevance to the 99% of the world without sandstorms.

 

"What happened was the hijab was mentioned in the Quran in a verse about modesty"   Really ?  Find the verse.  You cannot because it is not there and it really is not a religious principle.  The Koran says they should not flash their boobs ("They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers"  24:31)  and not wear short skirts ("O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciiful"  33:59). Nothing about hijab, burkas etc.

 

"you cannot tell other people how to exercise freedom, they have to choose that themselves"  exactly so you agree that allowing women to be pressured to wear the hijab and not exercise their freedom is wrong.  

 

 

[stephenterry]

19 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

False, in fact you don't even have to declare your religion when applying for residency nor does the government keep a record of numbers of any specific religion.  Stop getting your 'facts' from Facebook memes. 

Yes, you're correct on the residency, however - 

 

"There is no personal (Sharia) law in Japan."

This is correct. Even more so than the U.S., separation of Church and State is very clear in the Japanese Constitution and observed strictly by most public institutions. This includes public schools. There are no mentions of any gods or religious symbols on currency, government buildings, or flags. The same Constitutional article that gives religious freedom to everybody also defines the limits:

[Kieran00001]

10 hours ago, futsukayoi said:

 

All of the middle east wore head scarfs due to sandstorms ?  Good one but absolute rubbish.  There are loads of literary and artistic representations of people from that region not wearing headscarf.  Although your argument in any case accepts that it would have nothing to do with being Islamic attire and has no relevance to the 99% of the world without sandstorms.

 

"What happened was the hijab was mentioned in the Quran in a verse about modesty"   Really ?  Find the verse.  You cannot because it is not there and it really is not a religious principle.  The Koran says they should not flash their boobs ("They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers"  24:31)  and not wear short skirts ("O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen their garments. Thus, they will be recognized (as righteous women) and avoid being insulted. God is Forgiver, Most Merciiful"  33:59). Nothing about hijab, burkas etc.

 

"you cannot tell other people how to exercise freedom, they have to choose that themselves"  exactly so you agree that allowing women to be pressured to wear the hijab and not exercise their freedom is wrong.  

 

 

 

Here is a picture of women in pre-Islamic Arabia, note the attire is exactly the same as after Islamification, that's because it had nothing to do with religion, it was just what they wore.

Yes, it is the verse on modesty that told women to use the scarfs they were all already wearing, to ensure they were modest, this lead to Muslims throughout the world wearing scarfs even who weren't of cultures who traditionally wore them because of sand.  I did actually explain all of this but you completely misunderstood my post and made silly assumptions.

 

Pressuring women to wear, or not to wear, something is something I disagree with.  Preventing people from wearing something is not giving them greater freedom, it is taking one freedom away, they have to choose not to wear it otherwise no freedom has been exercised at all.

[Kieran00001]

11 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

No I haven’t. 

 

You said there was a one option menu which included ham. 

 

The school, acting in a rational and reasonable manner, changed the menu because one child cannot eat ham. 

 

They changed it to chicken, which you say you object to because of added hormones (again, does this still happen), but is something most Thais eat. 

 

Now, if you have legitimate concerns about a school’s menu, you should tell the school. 

 

You should give them the opportunity to act on them. 

 

How are they supposed to respond if you don’t raise your concerns?

 

You also have to bear in mind that one of the children was a known bully who tormented the Muslim children over the Ramadan holiday, it might have been considered safer that he was not armed with ham.

[greenchair]

12 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

These problems are unusual in Thaland and unrelated to headscarfs, your claim that these things happen after the headscarf goes on is laughable.

Your argument is feeble. No, they are not unusual in Thailand. That's why they have realised there needs to be a law change. 

Putting on the scarf is no different from wearing gang insignia. It promotes segregation of one group to another and is associated with gang mentality. It's absolutely nothing to do with religion. They have every right to go to a Muslim school, just as Christians can go to a school that supports their faith. If they want a government school, they have to follow the same rule for everyone. My son had to. 

[Kieran00001]

16 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Your argument is feeble. No, they are not unusual in Thailand. That's why they have realised there needs to be a law change. 

Putting on the scarf is no different from wearing gang insignia. It promotes segregation of one group to another and is associated with gang mentality. It's absolutely nothing to do with religion. They have every right to go to a Muslim school, just as Christians can go to a school that supports their faith. If they want a government school, they have to follow the same rule for everyone. My son had to. 

Quote

 

They have every right to go to a Muslim school, just as Christians can go to a school that supports their faith.

It promotes segregation of one group to another

 

A lack of sympathy to peoples cultural and religious norms will see them send their children to religious schools, you are the one promoting segregation.

 

And there is one rule for everyone regarding uniforms, the scarf is optional, as is the ribbon and bow.  Do you think they should also ban the ribbon and bow option from the girls school uniform as it is no different to gang insignia as it is promoting segregation between the girls wearing ribbons with bows and those not wearing ribbons with bows in their hair?