Are You A Sexpat Or Do You Ride The Backwards Morality Train?

[webfact]

Israel targets rights groups with bill to outlaw filming of soldiers

By Jeffrey Heller

 

FILE PHOTO: An Israeli soldier shouts as he aims his weapon during clashes with Palestinian demonstrators at a protest against U.S. President Donald Trump's decision to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, in the West Bank city of Hebron December 15, 2017. REUTERS/Mussa Qawasma/File Photo

 

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel moved on Sunday to snap the lens shut on rights groups that film its troops' interactions with Palestinians by introducing a bill that would make it a criminal offense.

 

Rights groups frequently film Israeli soldiers on duty in the occupied West Bank, documentation the organisations say is necessary to expose abuse by the military.

 

A video filmed by Israeli rights group B'Tselem in 2016 showing an Israeli soldier shoot dead an incapacitated Palestinian assailant drew international condemnation and led to the soldier's conviction for manslaughter in a highly divisive trial.

 

The proposed law, formulated by the ultranationalist Yisrael Beitenu party in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's governing coalition, would make filming or publishing footage "with intent to harm the morale of Israel's soldiers or its inhabitants" punishable by up to five years in prison.

 

The term would be raised to 10 years if the intention was to damage "national security".

 

A ministerial committee which oversees legislation voted to approve the bill on Sunday. It will now go to parliament for a vote that could take place this week and if ratified, will be scrutinised and amended before three more parliamentary votes needed for it to pass into law.

 

Yisrael Beitenu leader and Defence Minister, Avigdor Lieberman, praised the committee and said: "Israeli soldiers are under constant attack by Israel haters and supporters of terrorism who look constantly to degrade and sully them. We will put an end to this."

 

A Palestinian official condemned the move.

 

"This decision aims to cover up crimes committed by Israeli soldiers against our people, and to free their hands to commit more crimes," Deputy Palestinian Information Minister Fayez Abu Aitta told Reuters.

 

The phrasing of the bill stops short of a blanket ban, aiming instead at "anti-Israeli and pro-Palestinian organisations" which spend "entire days near Israeli soldiers waiting breathlessly for actions that can be documented in a slanted and one-sided way so that soldiers can be smeared".

 

Naming B'Tselem and several other rights groups, the bill says many of them are supported by organisations and governments with "a clear anti-Israel agenda" and that the videos are used to harm Israel and national security.

 

The ban would cover social networks as well as traditional media.

 

B'Tselem shrugged off the bill.

 

"If the occupation embarrasses the government, then the government should take action to end it. Documenting the reality of the occupation will continue regardless of such ridiculous legislation efforts," the group's spokesman, Amit Gilutz, said.

 

B'Tselem's video of the shooting in the West Bank in 2016 led to Israeli soldier Elor Azaria being convicted of manslaughter. He was released in May after serving two-thirds of his 14-month term. Opinion polls after his arrest showed a majority of Israelis did not want a court-martial to take place.

 

(Additional reporting by Ori Lewis and Nidal al-Mughrabi in Gaza; Editing by Raissa Kasolowsky)

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2018-06-18

[ezzra]

Every year the EU and others like George Soros, pour many millions of dollars into the pocket of traitors groups supposedly to document and expose Israel's army 'atrocity' and apartheid of the palestinian population, 

So be it, the more haters, the stronger the resolve of Israel to protect itself, no matter what the cost of lives is on either side, with so much hate, loathing and disdain, most of it from people who has no clue what is really going on,  how does anyone thing that a peace is possible at all, and the way things are at the moment, peace or any agreement of any kind is not possible....

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, ezzra said:

Every year the EU and others like George Soros, pour many millions of dollars into the pocket of traitors groups supposedly to document and expose Israel's army 'atrocity' and apartheid of the palestinian population, 

So be it, the more haters, the stronger the resolve of Israel to protect itself, no matter what the cost of lives is on either side, with so much hate, loathing and disdain, most of it from people who has no clue what is really going on,  how does anyone thing that a peace is possible at all, and the way things are at the moment, peace or any agreement of any kind is not possible....

Because video footage is such a lethal weapon?

Recording the actions and words of Israeli soldiers is such a lethal attack on Israel?

People seeing the actions and hearing the words of Israeli soldiers is such a risk to Israel?

 

If Israeli soldiers are acting within the law why the need to prevent the world seeing what they do and what they say while doing it?

 

Feel free to dip into your bag of insults if you have trouble with my questions.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, ezzra said:

Every year the EU and others like George Soros, pour many millions of dollars into the pocket of traitors groups supposedly to document and expose Israel's army 'atrocity' and apartheid of the palestinian population, 

So be it, the more haters, the stronger the resolve of Israel to protect itself, no matter what the cost of lives is on either side, with so much hate, loathing and disdain, most of it from people who has no clue what is really going on,  how does anyone thing that a peace is possible at all, and the way things are at the moment, peace or any agreement of any kind is not possible....

 

People having a different political point of view are not traitors. There is no obligation, even for Israelis, to embrace the agenda and policies represented by such as the current government. And while bringing up foreign donations, unlikely you'll complain about Israeli right wing initiatives and organizations being supported by foreigners , whether these are evangelicals or the likes of Sheldon Adelson.

 

Posters often pretend to speak on behalf of countries (or people) as a whole. The above is no different, and no less daft.

 

As for making claims about "people who has no clue what is really going on" - do note that the purpose of the legislation mentioned in the OP is to limit information. Make up your mind. But that's the trouble with making them wide-brush comments. Can never get them quite right.

 

That you seem to claim a position speaking on behalf of Israel as a whole is

[Morch]

Like many of the extreme legislation initiatives coming form the current Israeli right-wing coalition government, this too bears the signature of domestic politics all over it. The various parties making up the coalition are well aware that there is a question mark over it's continued existence, and hence, operate more in campaign trail mode. Part of this is trying to compete for the support of right-wing voters, or avoid being labeled as "soft". I think the current backdrop would be more to do with the party in question possibly having to accept a compromise on an unrelated political issue. It would also be safe to assert that even if this makes it through the all the procedural hoops, it will come out as somewhat less than advertised, or a prime candidate for thrashing in the Supreme Court.

 

As for the proposed legislation itself - about as daft as they come (no surprises there). In this day and age, it would be nigh impossible to enforce, and quite difficult to legally establish intent. Attempts at either would  just play right into the hands of the very organizations targeted, making their case. Obviously, the same goes for the legislation proposal too. This reinforces the point made above, more a right-wing posturing/support garnering effort than anything else.

 

Not aware that the IDF asked for such a legal measure, or considers it a good idea. While people often fail to make the differentiation, the IDF is often at odds with with the government (particularly this one) when it comes to some policy decisions and their expected consequences. As hinted in the OP, had the IDF wished it, a blanket (or partial) ban could be imposed under existing regulations.

 

That said, even while rejecting this move, I do get where the sentiment is coming from. Most of the organizations mentioned (and related initiatives) claim to present the "truth". What they in fact present is a partial take, and hardly an objective one. There isn't much effort to present Palestinian violence, incitement, or a full disclosure of how them presented instances unfolded. Take the pic appearing in the OP - there's no way to know what went on, but the image sticks. And that is the purpose, rather than any attempt at an objective "truth". In the same way, these organizations rarely cover similar issues related to either the PA's or the Hamas's rule. Guess that doesn't work out all that well both in terms of narrative and personal safety.

 

Some will say such nonsense as "so let both sides present their footage and let the public/world decide". And that would be a fair point if manipulations were not part of the game. Examples of this can be found on almost each and every related topic on TVF. So as it stands, this proposition is hopeless.

 

I'm also aware that some posters pretend to expect Israel to meet high standards of democracy. Not a whole lot of rationale is offered for such faux expectations, nor is the same required of other players. This isn't offered as an endorsement of Israel's actions and policies, but to highlight that the imbalanced presentation.

[dick dasterdly]

Govts. always (?) resort to making it illegal to report freely, when they are worried that they (and/or their 'services/forces) will be proven to have behaved in a way that everyone will condemn. ☹️

 

The 'funny' thing is that this action will only increase the number of those that condemn Israel for their actions towards the Palestinians!

[Morch]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Govts. always (?) resort to making it illegal to report freely, when they are worried that they (and/or their 'services/forces) will be proven to have behaved in a way that everyone will condemn. ☹️

 

The 'funny' thing is that this action will only increase the number of those that condemn Israel for their actions towards the Palestinians!

 

Doubt the point was actually "protecting" Israel's image (or the IDF's). More about projecting a political image for domestic purposes.

[DoctorG]

I am usually a friend to Israel but in this case they are wrong and overly authoritarian.

Governments around the world are becoming more draconian. Say anything remotely negative about the "religion of peas" and you can expect a visit from the hate crime unit in the UK.

In OZ we have the HRC who will prosecute for trivial things.

[thaibeachlovers]

In all the debate about Israeli policies, I've never seen any comment about how brutalising hundreds of thousands of young Israelis sent to confront Palestinians is going to affect Israeli society.

Forcing a nations youth to enforce occupation can't be good for anyone, unless one wants a nation of < select your own adjective >.

Allowing soldiers to operate without even publicity to restrain them can't have a beneficial effect, and we know that the Israeli authorities do not rush to prosecute their own.

Edited June 18, 2018 by thaibeachlovers

[Jonmarleesco]

7 hours ago, webfact said:

"Israeli soldiers are under constant attack by Israel haters and supporters of terrorism who look constantly to degrade and sully them. We will put an end to this.

Ah, nothing to do with Israel's way-over-the-top tactics, then? Nah, course not. 

[Proboscis]

7 hours ago, ezzra said:

Every year the EU and others like George Soros, pour many millions of dollars into the pocket of traitors groups supposedly to document and expose Israel's army 'atrocity' and apartheid of the palestinian population, 

So be it, the more haters, the stronger the resolve of Israel to protect itself, no matter what the cost of lives is on either side, with so much hate, loathing and disdain, most of it from people who has no clue what is really going on,  how does anyone thing that a peace is possible at all, and the way things are at the moment, peace or any agreement of any kind is not possible....

The real traitors are those who besmirch the name of Israel by committing atrocities in the name of the country.

[thaiguzzi]

7 hours ago, ezzra said:

Every year the EU and others like George Soros, pour many millions of dollars into the pocket of traitors groups supposedly to document and expose Israel's army 'atrocity' and apartheid of the palestinian population, 

So be it, the more haters, the stronger the resolve of Israel to protect itself, no matter what the cost of lives is on either side, with so much hate, loathing and disdain, most of it from people who has no clue what is really going on,  how does anyone thing that a peace is possible at all, and the way things are at the moment, peace or any agreement of any kind is not possible....

Oooops. Article on another Israeli story.

Guess who's straight in with his biased views on a country that can do no wrong.

And all those nasty bad people throwing stones who just want their land back. Maybe just a bit of it?

 

[Morch]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

In all the debate about Israeli policies, I've never seen any comment about how brutalising hundreds of thousands of young Israelis sent to confront Palestinians is going to affect Israeli society.

Forcing a nations youth to enforce occupation can't be good for anyone, unless one wants a nation of < select your own adjective >.

Allowing soldiers to operate without even publicity to restrain them can't have a beneficial effect, and we know that the Israeli authorities do not rush to prosecute their own.

 

Only you've raised this faux "concern" on previous topics, and accordingly - it was addressed. Hard to say if this got to do with memory issues, the usual games or the sort of "automatic" posting some engage in.

 

I doubt there are "hundreds of thousands" Israelis who were "brutalized" the way you allege. For starters, as in most armies, most soldiers aren't combatants or in positions which would apply to your "argument". There are soldiers who can pass their service without setting foot in the West Bank or confronting a Palestinian. Plenty of. Then, not all those in positions which do apply to your "argument" would indeed by "brutalized", that's just an assumption you sneak in.

 

Other than that, yes - of course it takes its toll, one way or another, on Israeli society. Nothing new there, and nothing which wasn't previously discussed.

 

Obviously, the same holds for the Palestinians. Both being under Israel's occupation, and their politics being governed by those advocating violence leave their marks as well. Same goes for the prevalent corruption and whatnot. But somehow, that doesn't seem much of a "concern" to the usual suspects.

 

I do not disagree that the implications of this legislation attempt are bad. But ignoring that the coverage in question isn't even remotely objective, is simply disingenuous. When such coverage seems more intent on serving the interests of one side, there's no particular reason to accept it at face value.

[hansnl]

6 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Because video footage is such a lethal weapon?

Recording the actions and words of Israeli soldiers is such a lethal attack on Israel?

People seeing the actions and hearing the words of Israeli soldiers is such a risk to Israel?

 

If Israeli soldiers are acting within the law why the need to prevent the world seeing what they do and what they say while doing it?

 

Feel free to dip into your bag of insults if you have trouble with my questions.

It is not, as you should well know, that footage is shown.

It is about how the footage is shown.

In parts, with nonsense comments, flawed and with an Anti Israel, read anti semitic, intent.

That is why Israel feels obliged to introduce this law.

High time!

[Morch]

22 minutes ago, hansnl said:

It is not, as you should well know, that footage is shown.

It is about how the footage is shown.

In parts, with nonsense comments, flawed and with an Anti Israel, read anti semitic, intent.

That is why Israel feels obliged to introduce this law.

High time!

 

The legislation proposal was raised by a backbencher MK. It didn't gain much traction even within his own party, until political circumstances changed, and party head needed a diversion/posturing moment. With a coalition made up of right wing parties such proposals are often approved. No one wants to look "soft, of worse...a "leftie".

 

This doesn't necessarily imply all coalition members feel strongly about such proposals, nor does it imply that they represent wholesale public support.

 

Not really seeing how "Israel feels obliged" applies. About as correct as discussing the Palestinian side without reference to the PA-Hamas divide, or treating Trump's...whatever as being America's.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Morch said:

 

Only you've raised this faux "concern" on previous topics, and accordingly - it was addressed. Hard to say if this got to do with memory issues, the usual games or the sort of "automatic" posting some engage in.

 

I doubt there are "hundreds of thousands" Israelis who were "brutalized" the way you allege. For starters, as in most armies, most soldiers aren't combatants or in positions which would apply to your "argument". There are soldiers who can pass their service without setting foot in the West Bank or confronting a Palestinian. Plenty of. Then, not all those in positions which do apply to your "argument" would indeed by "brutalized", that's just an assumption you sneak in.

 

Other than that, yes - of course it takes its toll, one way or another, on Israeli society. Nothing new there, and nothing which wasn't previously discussed.

 

Obviously, the same holds for the Palestinians. Both being under Israel's occupation, and their politics being governed by those advocating violence leave their marks as well. Same goes for the prevalent corruption and whatnot. But somehow, that doesn't seem much of a "concern" to the usual suspects.

 

I do not disagree that the implications of this legislation attempt are bad. But ignoring that the coverage in question isn't even remotely objective, is simply disingenuous. When such coverage seems more intent on serving the interests of one side, there's no particular reason to accept it at face value.

You obviously have a better memory than I, as I have no remembrance of ever raising the subject before.

However to address the points you raise, since 1967 there must have been a very large number is IDF soldiers directly involved in the occupation, and no normal person can treat people the way the IDF treat Palestinians without becoming brutalised, IMO.

 

Obviously, the same holds for the Palestinians. Both being under Israel's occupation, and their politics being governed by those advocating violence leave their marks as well. Same goes for the prevalent corruption and whatnot. But somehow, that doesn't seem much of a "concern" to the usual suspects.

The Palestinians are the ones under occupation, and as such are not in charge of their brutalisation. The Israelis, on the other hand have chosen to continue the occupation, so they are responsible for any brutalisation that occurs.

[Morch]

13 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

You obviously have a better memory than I, as I have no remembrance of ever raising the subject before.

However to address the points you raise, since 1967 there must have been a very large number is IDF soldiers directly involved in the occupation, and no normal person can treat people the way the IDF treat Palestinians without becoming brutalised, IMO.

 

Obviously, the same holds for the Palestinians. Both being under Israel's occupation, and their politics being governed by those advocating violence leave their marks as well. Same goes for the prevalent corruption and whatnot. But somehow, that doesn't seem much of a "concern" to the usual suspects.

The Palestinians are the ones under occupation, and as such are not in charge of their brutalisation. The Israelis, on the other hand have chosen to continue the occupation, so they are responsible for any brutalisation that occurs.

 

The funny thing is that even if I'd be bothered pulling such a post from your history, you'll just shrug it off and claim it doesn't matter. If this sounds familiar, then yeah....

 

And to avoid further spins, the "point" was raised by yourself, not me.

 

As for your "however" unsubstantiated assertions - there were certainly a lot of IDF soldiers over the years which were involved one way or another. Whether it amounts to "hundreds of thousands" is not something which can be ascertained from your posts. That all were "brutalized", in your opinion - is just that, your opinion.

 

The usual nonsense spin - "it's all up to Israel", "it's all Israel's responsibility" is bogus. Same old all or nothing argument. Israel is responsible for maintaining the occupation, fair enough. But the Palestinians chose violence on their own. Absolving them from any accountability whatsoever doesn't stand to reason. The same would apply for corruption issues. If you were actually concerned with regard to the implications, your focus would have been on ways to end the occupation as peacefully and swiftly as possible. Obviously, you find it more important to lay blame in a one-sided manner and deflect.

[evadgib]

If they're operating within international parameters they won't mind being filmed.

http://mondoweiss.net/2018/06/palestinian-disfigured-canister/

Edited June 18, 2018 by evadgib

[Morch]

 

@evadgib

 

Thanks for posting, because it sort of makes one of the points raised - if not the way you  intended to.

 

The proposed legislation is more to do with Israel's actions in the West Bank. The story you posted (with the "obligatory" graphic added for shock value) is about the Gaza Strip. As far as I'm aware, not many Israeli NGO's directly operate there, especially not in the context of the OP. That's just one way images can be used to manipulate a discussion.

 

And getting into them details - it would be very hard to prove the claims raised in the article linked, when it comes to intent. There would also be a question of who the f___ continues snapping pics while a guy next to him is in such a state. But since this topic is about images, let do this:

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/two-palestinians-said-injured-as-rioting-breaks-out-on-gaza-border/

 

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/176404-180605-israel-braces-for-protests-as-palestinians-mark-naksa-day

 

Not the sharpest knife, this one. Didn't know it was still a "thing", but used to be a kind of a social media challenge among some Palestinians.

 

There's a well known image which makes the point even better:

 

 

Edited June 18, 2018 by Morch

[canthai55]

fascism

 

The only official definition of Fascism comes from Benito Mussolini, the founder of fascism, in which he outlines three principles of a fascist philosophy.
1."Everything in the state". The Government is supreme and the country is all-encompasing, and all within it must conform to the ruling body, often a dictator.
2."Nothing outside the state". The country must grow and the implied goal of any fascist nation is to rule the world, and have every human submit to the government.
3."Nothing against the state". Any type of questioning the government is not to be tolerated. If you do not see things our way, you are wrong. If you do not agree with the government, you cannot be allowed to live and taint the minds of the rest of the good citizens.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascism

Edited June 18, 2018 by canthai55

[Credo]

16 hours ago, ezzra said:

Every year the EU and others like George Soros, pour many millions of dollars into the pocket of traitors groups supposedly to document and expose Israel's army 'atrocity' and apartheid of the palestinian population, 

So be it, the more haters, the stronger the resolve of Israel to protect itself, no matter what the cost of lives is on either side, with so much hate, loathing and disdain, most of it from people who has no clue what is really going on,  how does anyone thing that a peace is possible at all, and the way things are at the moment, peace or any agreement of any kind is not possible....

Soros' Open Society foundation provides training and money for journalists and stresses journalistic integrity.   

 

Because we don't see it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.   

[canthai55]

17 hours ago, ezzra said:

So be it, the more haters, the stronger the resolve of Israel to protect itself, no matter what the cost of lives is on either side,

By oppressing a people, refusing medical care, committing acts of Genocide ...

Protect itself - what a Crock !!!

And I do not Hate anyone, but I sure Hate the actions of some countries towards others.

 

[bristolboy]

2 hours ago, canthai55 said:

fascism

 

The only official definition of Fascism comes from Benito Mussolini, the founder of fascism, in which he outlines three principles of a fascist philosophy.
1."Everything in the state". The Government is supreme and the country is all-encompasing, and all within it must conform to the ruling body, often a dictator.
2."Nothing outside the state". The country must grow and the implied goal of any fascist nation is to rule the world, and have every human submit to the government.
3."Nothing against the state". Any type of questioning the government is not to be tolerated. If you do not see things our way, you are wrong. If you do not agree with the government, you cannot be allowed to live and taint the minds of the rest of the good citizens.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fascism

So, if you want a franchise, you have to get it from Benito?

[flyingtlger]

18 hours ago, webfact said:

Israel targets rights groups with bill to outlaw filming of soldiers

So they can go on with their illegal activities.....

 

[Morch]

 

Turns out the attorney general objects to the legislation, saying it goes against Israel Basic Laws, and that his office wouldn't defend it if it comes to the Supreme Court, which would probably trash it anyway. These objections were aired prior to the vote, and the understanding reached was that the vote will be returned to the committee for amendment and changes. Even then, it remains doubtful whether it will stand a SC challenge.

 

Essentially, said changes amount to the legislation will mean the issues dealt with will focus on instances of actual obstruction of security forces duties, rather than the previously pushed blanket measure. Obviously, this is superfluous as enough regulations for that are already in place.

 

And getting more obvious its tied to the initiating party about to suffer a political defeat on a different key issue. Hence the posturing, and putting domestic politics first.

 

Notably, even the preliminary vote was passed only by a narrow margin (45-42).

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/bill-criminalizing-filming-idf-soldiers-clears-first-knesset-hurdle/

https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-approve-bill-criminalizing-filming-idf-soldiers-despite-ag-opposition/

Edited June 21, 2018 by Morch