Small AA Group - Tradition 3

likerdup1 · October 21, 2018

On 10/16/2018 at 9:47 AM, Wilson Smith said:

Luckily AA does not care about your opinion or your judgement on others who attend the meeting.

Attempting to use "parts" of the literature as a weapon. Why don't you quote the full writing. Tradition 3 has a very painful history and in the end it was settled.

" We were resolved to admit nobody to A.A. but that hypothetical class of people we termed pure alcoholics." So beggars, tramps, asylum inmates, prisoners, queers ( old skool useage) plain crackpots, and fallen women were definitely out."

The next paragraph delves into the fear - "isn't fear the true basis of intolerance? Yes, we were intolerant."

The modern outcome is " You are an AA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out."

Later in the chapter we read " Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"

So, what is your point exactly? People who are not alcoholics and have other problems should attend other meetings .. period.

You say AA does not care about my judgement? I am just calling a spade a spade. If someone comes in and says they have not had a drink for 25 years then goes on and on about some other problem like sex addiction what are we supposed to think? This guy would get shut down or not allowed to talk at some of the better meetings I go to in the states. Sorry, we are here to recover from alcoholism period..

AA is for alcoholics, not drug addicts unless they are also alcoholics, not compulsive gamblers UNLESS they are also alcoholics etc. etc.

Seems you are just bashing me and giving your opinion .. which is unclear you've made no real point, just also sighted sections of the literature. Your point is unclear and your opinion if you are giving one is unclear.

Exactly how was I using the literature as a weapon? You've not made any clear argument or point. Just basically said AA doesn't care about my opinion which doesn't make sense because AA is a program in it's essence.

Let's have a look from the 1958 Grapevine article where Bill W. was quoted.

Bill Wilson stated that “Sobriety, freedom from alcohol from the teaching and practice of the 12 steps is the SOLE purpose of an AA group. Groups have repeatedly tried other activities and they have ALWAYS failed. If we don’t stick to these principles will shall almost surely collapse. And if we collapse, we cannot help anyone”. (1958 Grapevine article)

If you want to "teach me" something or change my mind about and issue, come back well informed, articulate and make sense. Otherwise you are just another in a long line of critics who just want to criticize because it goes against there single minded NOTION of how they think things are instead of really trying to inform themselves.

Edited October 21, 2018 by likerdup1

likerdup1 · October 21, 2018

On 10/14/2018 at 2:39 PM, Neeranam said:

Spiritual tools to fix a physical allergy or mental obsession?

No, to fix the spiritual malady by having a spiritual awakening, by connecting to the power of God, as we understand it.

Our book promises us that “When the spiritual malady is overcome, we straighten out mentally and physically.”The mental and physical factors of alcoholism are put into remission AFTER the “spiritual malady” is overcome — which means I’m still in danger of drinking until I have a spiritual awakening — whether I think so or not.

Yes spiritual tools to fix the MAIN problem of the alcoholic which is the mental obsession -- which is also described as the insanity of the first drink. The Big Book has an entire chapter on alcoholism and it says over and over the that main problem is the insanity of the first drink or in other words mental obsession. Study the book with a good Big Book teacher (like Joe and Charlie) and you will see that absolutely the spiritual awakening or connection with God directly addresses and gives recovery from the mental obsession part of alcoholism .. period.

Page 23 there is a solution:

These observations would be academic and point

less if our friend never took the first drink, thereby

setting the terrible cycle in motion. Therefore, the

main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind,

rather than in his body.

Edited October 21, 2018 by likerdup1

dennis123 · October 21, 2018

How do you become an alcoholic?

I tried many times but the next day I'm so sick of drinking that I only lie in bed and the last thing I think about is taking another drink.

Respect for the real alcoholic to keep on going!

mogandave · October 21, 2018

So, what is your point exactly? People who are not alcoholics and have other problems should attend other meetings .. period.

You say AA does not care about my judgement? I am just calling a spade a spade. If someone comes in and says they have not had a drink for 25 years then goes on and on about some other problem like sex addiction what are we supposed to think? This guy would get shut down or not allowed to talk at some of the better meetings I go to in the states. Sorry, we are here to recover from alcoholism period..

AA is for alcoholics, not drug addicts unless they are also alcoholics, not compulsive gamblers UNLESS they are also alcoholics etc. etc.

Seems you are just bashing me and giving your opinion .. which is unclear you've made no real point, just also sighted sections of the literature. Your point is unclear and your opinion if you are giving one is unclear.

Exactly how was I using the literature as a weapon? You've not made any clear argument or point. Just basically said AA doesn't care about my opinion which doesn't make sense because AA is a program in it's essence.

Let's have a look from the 1958 Grapevine article where Bill W. was quoted.

Bill Wilson stated that “Sobriety, freedom from alcohol from the teaching and practice of the 12 steps is the SOLE purpose of an AA group. Groups have repeatedly tried other activities and they have ALWAYS failed. If we don’t stick to these principles will shall almost surely collapse. And if we collapse, we cannot help anyone”. (1958 Grapevine article)

If you want to "teach me" something or change my mind about and issue, come back well informed, articulate and make sense. Otherwise you are just another in a long line of critics who just want to criticize because it goes against there single minded NOTION of how they think things are instead of really trying to inform themselves.

Are you really using the fact that people sometimes get “shut down” in US meetings for getting off topic to legitimize your desire to kick people out you do not feel qualify as “real” alcoholics?

Weak

likerdup1 · October 22, 2018

5 hours ago, mogandave said:

Are you really using the fact that people sometimes get “shut down” in US meetings for getting off topic to legitimize your desire to kick people out you do not feel qualify as “real” alcoholics?

Weak

Where did you read that I suggest I have a desire to kick anybody out of meetings? I absolutely do not. My point is simply AA is for alcoholics, always has been and always will be. People who have problems other than alcohol should always be urged to attend other meetings and urged to NOT share. I attend a meeting here in Pattaya that, as part of the format, uses just that kind of language. People with problems other than alcohol and no drinking history to share are urged to go elsewhere for fellowship, also they are urged to not share if they choose to attend. We have NEVER had anybody NOT honor that. The group also never has open voluntary sharing in the case somebody is beligerent enough to show up and demand to speak who is not an alcoholic or continually shares off topic. They simply won't get called on. It is a more than reasonable request to ask people who have other problems go elsewhere for help and that they not share if the choose to stay in the meeting. That group may run it's meetings as they see fit. That group sticks to tradition 3 and the singleness of purpose.

The problem is that many alcoholics with long term sobriety have never really studied the Big Book thoroughly.. they have picked up what they know from going to lots of meetings .. In my experience MOST meetings of AA have loads of alcoholics who have stayed sober but DON"T really know the program as outlined in the Big Book.

If I ask as simple question like. "What does AA say is the solution to obtain recovery from alcoholism" Most would not be able to answer correctly. There absolutely is a simple and correct answer to that question.

If I asked them to show me where in the Big Book are the 11th step instructions, they would fail that also .. it's a travesty. I go to a meeting in Pattaya that "observes" the 11th tradition with 5 minutes of silent meditation up front at every meeting and they guy who started that does not understand that the meditation that AA used in the early days WAS NOT EASTERN style mediation... that was only really widely introduced in the USA in the 70's ... 30 years after AA started.

AA uses contemplative mediation adopted from the Oxford groups and Christian mediation practices. It's a shame but so many alcoholics have not ever taken the time to really study the Single Most important text our Society has.

The Book entitled "Alcoholics Anonymous"

Let me ask you this. Why does AA have a singleness of purpose? What is the function? Why is it important?

Edited October 22, 2018 by likerdup1

Neeranam · October 22, 2018

18 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

The Big Book has an entire chapter on alcoholism

The whole book is about alcoholism!

Neeranam · October 22, 2018

18 hours ago, dennis123 said:

How do you become an alcoholic?

I tried many times but the next day I'm so sick of drinking that I only lie in bed and the last thing I think about is taking another drink.

Respect for the real alcoholic to keep on going!

Why do you have respect for someone who has a disease and can't drink like normal people?

mogandave · October 22, 2018

Where did you read that I suggest I have a desire to kick anybody out of meetings? I absolutely do not.

Sorry, I had you confused with the OP and the rest of the kick ‘em out crew.

My bad.

likerdup1 · October 22, 2018

6 hours ago, Neeranam said:

The whole book is about alcoholism!

Is it now? Are you quite sure about that? Let's have a look at the very first page of the book. The first title page of the book has this. "Alcoholics Anonymous".

Then in my third edition second physical page it is written. "The story how many thousands of men and women have RECOVERED from alcoholism."

The very first sentence of the forward explains: We of alcoholics anonymous are more than one hundred men and women who have recovered from a hopeless state of mind and body. To show others PRECISELY HOW WE HAVE RECOVERED IS THE MAIN PURPOSE OF THIS BOOK.

The Big Book IS MOSTLY NOT ABOUT ALCOHOLISM... only about the first third of the 164 pages including the Dr. opinion explains alcoholism. The REST OF THE BOOK IS ABOUT HOW TO RECOVER FROM ALCOHOLISM USING THE PROGRAM ...

The main problem for the majority of people I hear in the rooms of AA is they really don't know much at all about the Big Book or the program of recovery called the 12 steps.

Its is damn shame so many alcoholics in the fellowship know very little about the Big Book and the 12 step program of recovery.

Do yourself a favor. Search for Big Book study on YouTube. Take about 12 hours of your life and learn the program out of the book.

JOE AND CHARLIE Big Book study is one of the best.

Edited October 22, 2018 by likerdup1

dennis123 · October 22, 2018

13 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Why do you have respect for someone who has a disease and can't drink like normal people?

This thread deserves some trolling.

You people are truly insane, bickering over who should be allowed in AA meetings and who not.

likerdup1 · October 23, 2018

8 hours ago, dennis123 said:

This thread deserves some trolling.

You people are truly insane, bickering over who should be allowed in AA meetings and who not.

Are you a member of AA? If not then you would not understand. Alcoholism is, of course, a fatal disease and how to run and conduct AA meetings is important because it is how most all people get introduced to the AA 12 step program and understand enough about alcoholism to b then be willing to do it all.

Edited October 23, 2018 by likerdup1

MrPatrickThai · October 23, 2018

14 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

Are you a member of AA? If not then you would not understand. Alcoholism is, of course, a fatal disease and how to run and conduct AA meetings is important because it is how most all people get introduced to the AA 12 step program and understand enough about alcoholism to b then be willing to do it all.

I agree with many things you say in this thread, but you seem a little confused about the spiritual v mental nature of the disease of alcoholism. How long have you been sober? just asking as when I was 2-5 years sober, I thought I knew it all, and after two decades realized I didn't know half of what i thought I did. I assume in another 10 years, I'll look back to now and think the same.

Edited October 23, 2018 by MrPatrickThai

likerdup1 · October 23, 2018

35 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

I agree with many things you say in this thread, but you seem a little confused about the spiritual v mental nature of the disease of alcoholism. How long have you been sober? just asking as when I was 2-5 years sober, I thought I knew it all, and after two decades realized I didn't know half of what i thought I did. I assume in another 10 years, I'll look back to now and think the same.

How long one has been sober has nothing to do with actual knowledge of the AA program. Are you just saying I'm confused to get an explanation rather than just ask me?

I am 24 years sober and have had 3 Big Book sponsors, one who is a well known circuit speaker and Big Book teacher. He gives well attended seminars on the program as illustrated in the Big Book. Sir, I am not confused, you are simply think you know for certain something that is just not completely accurate.

Show me where in the literature it goes into depth about the spiritual nature of the disease. Sure it is also a spiritual problem BUT THE MAIN problem is the mental obsession, then the allergy of the body (which cannot be cured or recovered using the program) That is why real alcoholics must abstain if they want recovery.

I only see it in one place mentioned briefly (in the 4th step) where the alcoholism is talked about as a spiritual problem. If the Big Book authors wanted to make this a point it would be talked about in as much or greater detail than the two fold disease of alcoholism that the first 3rd of the book covers. There is an entire chapter in the book called "More About Alcoholism" that goes into great detail including stories illustrating the mental obsession portion of the disease. I am not confused, sorry to say but I'm certain you are basically inaccurate here and holding onto something you think is correct that you probably repeat at a lot of meetings.

One thing I have learned. It's not what I think I know that can causes me trouble. It's what I know for certain that just ain't so that will get me every time.

Page 23 there is a solution:

These observations would be academic and point

less if our friend never took the first drink, thereby

setting the terrible cycle in motion. Therefore, the

main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind,

rather than in his body.

Edited October 23, 2018 by likerdup1

MrPatrickThai · October 23, 2018

4 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

I am 24 years sober and have had 3 Big Book sponsors, one who is a well known circuit speaker and Big Book teacher. He gives well attended seminars on the program as illustrated in the Big Book. Sir, I am not confused, you are simply think you know for certain something that is just not completely accurate.

Show me where in the literature it goes into depth about the spiritual nature of the disease. Sure it is also a spiritual problem BUT THE MAIN problem is the mental obsession, then the allergy of the body (which cannot be cured or recovered using the program) That is why real alcoholics must abstain if they want recovery.

You would do well to study the book in greater detail with a knowledgeable big book teacher, which I am sure you have not because of your resistance to admitting you are wrong.

Hi, a couple of things. I was taught to watch out for these circuit speakers, what what they do , not what they say. In my experience, same time as you, it's true, I've seen famous speakers ask me about dodgy places to go to around nana plaza and so on and so forth.

What am I wrong about and where have I refused to admit I'm wrong. I assure you, I will admit when I am wrong.

MrPatrickThai · October 23, 2018

My big book must be a different version to yours. The spiritual nature is mentioned throughout the book. There is even more in the 12 x 12.

BB p. 14-5 --
My friend had emphasized the absolute necessity of demonstrating these principles in all my affairs. Particularly was it imperative to work with others as he had worked with me. Faith without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic! For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead. If he did not work, he would surely drink again, and if he drank, he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed. With us it is just like that.

BB p. 42-3 -- (attitude of open mindedness)
Then they outlined the spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed successfully. Though I had been only a nominal churchman, their proposals were not, intellectually, hard to swallow. But the program of action, though entirely sensible, was pretty drastic. It meant I would have to throw several lifelong conceptions out of the window. That was not easy. But the moment I made up my mind to go through with the process, I had the curious feeling that my alcoholic condition was relieved, as in fact it proved to be.
Quite as important was the discovery that spiritual principles would solve all my problems. I have since been brought into a way of living infinitely more satisfying and, I hope, more useful than the life I lived before. My old manner of life was by no means a bad one, but I would not exchange its best moments for the worst I have now. I would not go back to it even if I could.

BB p. 47 -- (willingness is spiritual cornerstone)
We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.
That was great news to us, for we had assumed we could not make use of spiritual principles unless we accepted many things on faith which seemed difficult to believe.

BB p. 60 --
Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.

BB p. 79 --
Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some general principles which we find guiding. Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences may be. We may lose our position or reputation or face jail, but we are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything.
Usually, however, other people are involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would needlessly sacrifice others to save himself from the alcoholic pit.

BB p. 83 --
Yes, there is a long period of reconstruction ahead. We must take the lead. A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won't fill the bill at all. We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them. Their defects may be glaring, but the chances are that our own actions are partly responsible. So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.
The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it. Unless ones family expresses a desire to live upon spiritual principles we think we ought not to urge them. We should not talk incessantly to them about spiritual matters. They will change in time. Our behavior will convince them more than our words.

BB p. 87 --
We usually conclude the period of meditation with a prayer that we be shown all through the day what our next step is to be, that we be given whatever we need to take care of such problems. We ask especially for freedom from self-will, and are careful to make no request for ourselves only. We may ask for ourselves, however, if others will be helped. We are careful never to pray for our own selfish ends. Many of us have wasted a lot of time doing that and it doesn't work. You can easily see why.
If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning devotion, we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from ones priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer.

BB p. 98 --
    It is not the matter of giving that is in question, but when and how to give. That often makes the difference between failure and success. The minute we put our work on a service plane, the alcoholic commences to rely upon our assistance rather than upon God. He clamors for this or that, claiming he cannot master alcohol until his material needs are cared for. Nonsense. Some of us have taken very hard knocks to learn this truth: Job or no job--wife or no wife--we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God.
    Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house.
    Now, the domestic problem: There may be divorce, separation, or just strained relations. When your prospect has made such reparation as he can to his family, and has thoroughly explained to them the new principles by which he is living, he should proceed to put those principles into action at home.

BB p. 116-7 -- (trust God)
    There is another paralyzing fear. You may be afraid your husband will lose his position; you are thinking of the disgrace and hard times which will befall you and the children. This experience may come to you. Or you may already have had it several times. Should it happen again, regard it in a different light. Maybe it will prove a blessing! It may convince your husband he wants to stop drinking forever. And now you know that he can stop if he will! Time after time, this apparent calamity has been a boon to us, for it opened up a path which led to the discovery of God.
    We have elsewhere remarked how much better life is when lived on a spiritual plane. If God can solve the age-old riddle of alcoholism, He can solve your problems too. We wives found that, like everybody else, we were afflicted with pride, self-pity, vanity and all the things which go to make up the self-centered person; and we were not above selfishness or dishonesty. As our husbands began to apply spiritual principles in their lives, we began to see the desirability of doing so too.
    At first, some of us did not believe we needed this help. We thought, on the whole, we were pretty good women, capable of being nicer if our husbands stopped drinking. But it was a silly idea that we were too good to need God. Now we try to put spiritual principles to work in every department of our lives. When we do that, we find it solves our problems too; the ensuing lack of fear, worry and hurt feelings is a wonderful thing.

BB p. 130 -- (God conscious but feet on the ground)
Those of us who have spent much time in the world of spiritual make-believe have eventually seen the childishness of it. This dream world has been replaced by a great sense of purpose, accompanied by a growing consciousness of the power of God in our lives. We have come to believe He would like us to keep our heads in the clouds with Him, but that our feet ought to be firmly planted on earth. That is where our fellow travelers are, and that is where our work must be done. These are the realities for us. We have found nothing incompatible between a powerful spiritual experience and a life of sane and happy usefulness.
One more suggestion: Whether the family has spiritual convictions or not, they may do well to examine the principles by which the alcoholic member is trying to live. They can hardly fail to approve these simple principles, though the head of the house still fails somewhat in practicing them.

BB p. 570 --
Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial. We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.
    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information,
    which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to
    keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt
    prior to investigation."
         --Herbert Spencer

likerdup1 · October 23, 2018

All you've done here is shown me where in the book it talks about THE SPIRITUAL SOLUTION!

NOT THE SPIRITUAL NATURE OF THE DISEASE.

Wow, are we using the English language here?

Without a doubt AA's solution to alcoholism is SPIRITUAL ... but alcoholism itself IS A MENTAL OBSESSION coupled with AN ALLERGY OF THE BODY

Now I am certain I am not the one who is confused here.

Study the book with a Joe and Charlie seminar recording or a Bob D and Scott L seminar recording.

I am done talking about this with you..

Edited October 23, 2018 by likerdup1

MrPatrickThai · October 23, 2018

3 minutes ago, likerdup1 said:

All you've done here is shown me where in the book it talks about THE SPIRITUAL SOLUTION!

NOT THE SPIRITUAL NATURE OF THE DISEASE.

Wow, are we using the English language here?

Without a doubt AA's solution to alcoholism is SPIRITUAL ... but alcoholism itself IS A MENTAL OBSESSION coupled with AN ALLERGY OF THE BODY

Now I am certain I am not the one who is confused here.

Study the book with a Joe and Charlie seminar recording or a Bob D and Scott L seminar recording.

I am done talking about this with you..

http://www.barefootsworld.org/aaspiritualmalady.html

read this please and get back to me

likerdup1 · October 23, 2018

1 minute ago, MrPatrickThai said:

http://www.barefootsworld.org/aaspiritualmalady.html

read this please and get back to me

I have briefly read this. Until one really knows the Big Book this is extra non-AA approved opinion. I choose to stick with the Big Book and 12 and 12.

Again, my suggestion to you is study the Big Book with a good well known and tried and true Big Book teacher. Joe and Charlie or Scott L and Bob D.

Talking to a new commer straight away about "alcoholism as a spiritual malady" IS THE WRONG WAY TO APPROACH HELPING A NEW COMMER.

USE THE CHAPTER "WORKING WITH OTHERS" as a guide and it specifically talks about NOT USING SPIRITUAL TERMS IN THE EARLY TIMES OF HELPING A NEW PERSON!!!!

Wilson Smith · October 24, 2018

22 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

How long one has been sober has nothing to do with actual knowledge of the AA program. Are you just saying I'm confused to get an explanation rather than just ask me?

I am 24 years sober and have had 3 Big Book sponsors, one who is a well known circuit speaker and Big Book teacher. He gives well attended seminars on the program as illustrated in the Big Book. Sir, I am not confused, you are simply think you know for certain something that is just not completely accurate.

Show me where in the literature it goes into depth about the spiritual nature of the disease. Sure it is also a spiritual problem BUT THE MAIN problem is the mental obsession, then the allergy of the body (which cannot be cured or recovered using the program) That is why real alcoholics must abstain if they want recovery.

I only see it in one place mentioned briefly (in the 4th step) where the alcoholism is talked about as a spiritual problem. If the Big Book authors wanted to make this a point it would be talked about in as much or greater detail than the two fold disease of alcoholism that the first 3rd of the book covers. There is an entire chapter in the book called "More About Alcoholism" that goes into great detail including stories illustrating the mental obsession portion of the disease. I am not confused, sorry to say but I'm certain you are basically inaccurate here and holding onto something you think is correct that you probably repeat at a lot of meetings.

One thing I have learned. It's not what I think I know that can causes me trouble. It's what I know for certain that just ain't so that will get me every time.

Page 23 there is a solution:

These observations would be academic and point

less if our friend never took the first drink, thereby

setting the terrible cycle in motion. Therefore, the

main problem of the alcoholic centers in his mind,

rather than in his body.

And because you have this qualification, does this mean someone in AA has appointed you to some type of authority to decides who qualifies to be in an AA meeting despite them identifying that they are an alcoholic? There are no leaders, back of bus Bozo!

You can quote until the cows come home.

Read the only thing that matters on the topic.

The modern outcome is " You are an AA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out."

Later in the chapter we read " Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"

Kadilo · October 24, 2018

59 minutes ago, Wilson Smith said:

And because you have this qualification, does this mean someone in AA has appointed you to some type of authority to decides who qualifies to be in an AA meeting despite them identifying that they are an alcoholic? There are no leaders, back of bus Bozo!

You can quote until the cows come home.

Read the only thing that matters on the topic.

The modern outcome is " You are an AA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out."

Later in the chapter we read " Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"

In my experience what you read on here recently is the kind of reason people are reluctant to go to any self help meeting.

Two guys, similar large period of abstinence basically arguing about who knows more than the other, who knows more influential people, who is reading and understand the literature correctly etc etc Add that to other posters experience of being ignored at their initial meeting and you have an environment that is not attracting people to go because they could believe they are being judged before they even step foot in the room.

I appreciate the dynamic of all meetings can be different and dependent on the people present but the basis should be that everyone is initially welcomed and allowed to speak about their problem, not judged on whether they actually have a problem in some members eyes. It is this judgement that may be one of the reasons that contributed to the person turning to their addiction in the first place.

Who cares what their initial reasons are for wanting help, who cares what what their interpretation of certain passages of literature are, who cares who knows who who does seminars blah blah , just stinks of arrogance and one could argue certain spiritual qualities such as modesty open mindedness do not appear to have been achieved over that 20+ years of abstinence when people feel the need to say these type of things and become a self appointed judge.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Kadilo

Wilson Smith · October 24, 2018

23 hours ago, MrPatrickThai said:

My big book must be a different version to yours. The spiritual nature is mentioned throughout the book. There is even more in the 12 x 12.

BB p. 14-5 --
    My friend had emphasized the absolute necessity of demonstrating these principles in all my affairs. Particularly was it imperative to work with others as he had worked with me. Faith without works was dead, he said. And how appallingly true for the alcoholic! For if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others, he could not survive the certain trials and low spots ahead. If he did not work, he would surely drink again, and if he drank, he would surely die. Then faith would be dead indeed. With us it is just like that.

BB p. 42-3 -- (attitude of open mindedness)
    Then they outlined the spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed successfully. Though I had been only a nominal churchman, their proposals were not, intellectually, hard to swallow. But the program of action, though entirely sensible, was pretty drastic. It meant I would have to throw several lifelong conceptions out of the window. That was not easy. But the moment I made up my mind to go through with the process, I had the curious feeling that my alcoholic condition was relieved, as in fact it proved to be.
    Quite as important was the discovery that spiritual principles would solve all my problems. I have since been brought into a way of living infinitely more satisfying and, I hope, more useful than the life I lived before. My old manner of life was by no means a bad one, but I would not exchange its best moments for the worst I have now. I would not go back to it even if I could.

BB p. 47 -- (willingness is spiritual cornerstone)
    We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?" As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way. It has been repeatedly proven among us that upon this simple cornerstone a wonderfully effective spiritual structure can be built.
    That was great news to us, for we had assumed we could not make use of spiritual principles unless we accepted many things on faith which seemed difficult to believe.

BB p. 60 --
    Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection.

BB p. 79 --
    Although these reparations take innumerable forms, there are some general principles which we find guiding. Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences may be. We may lose our position or reputation or face jail, but we are willing. We have to be. We must not shrink at anything.
    Usually, however, other people are involved. Therefore, we are not to be the hasty and foolish martyr who would needlessly sacrifice others to save himself from the alcoholic pit.

BB p. 83 --
    Yes, there is a long period of reconstruction ahead. We must take the lead. A remorseful mumbling that we are sorry won't fill the bill at all. We ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as we now see it, being very careful not to criticize them. Their defects may be glaring, but the chances are that our own actions are partly responsible. So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.
    The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it. Unless ones family expresses a desire to live upon spiritual principles we think we ought not to urge them. We should not talk incessantly to them about spiritual matters. They will change in time. Our behavior will convince them more than our words.

BB p. 87 --
    We usually conclude the period of meditation with a prayer that we be shown all through the day what our next step is to be, that we be given whatever we need to take care of such problems. We ask especially for freedom from self-will, and are careful to make no request for ourselves only. We may ask for ourselves, however, if others will be helped. We are careful never to pray for our own selfish ends. Many of us have wasted a lot of time doing that and it doesn't work. You can easily see why.
    If circumstances warrant, we ask our wives or friends to join us in morning meditation. If we belong to a religious denomination which requires a definite morning devotion, we attend to that also. If not members of religious bodies, we sometimes select and memorize a few set prayers which emphasize the principles we have been discussing. There are many helpful books also. Suggestions about these may be obtained from ones priest, minister, or rabbi. Be quick to see where religious people are right. Make use of what they offer.

BB p. 98 --
    It is not the matter of giving that is in question, but when and how to give. That often makes the difference between failure and success. The minute we put our work on a service plane, the alcoholic commences to rely upon our assistance rather than upon God. He clamors for this or that, claiming he cannot master alcohol until his material needs are cared for. Nonsense. Some of us have taken very hard knocks to learn this truth: Job or no job--wife or no wife--we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God.
    Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house.
    Now, the domestic problem: There may be divorce, separation, or just strained relations. When your prospect has made such reparation as he can to his family, and has thoroughly explained to them the new principles by which he is living, he should proceed to put those principles into action at home.

BB p. 116-7 -- (trust God)
    There is another paralyzing fear. You may be afraid your husband will lose his position; you are thinking of the disgrace and hard times which will befall you and the children. This experience may come to you. Or you may already have had it several times. Should it happen again, regard it in a different light. Maybe it will prove a blessing! It may convince your husband he wants to stop drinking forever. And now you know that he can stop if he will! Time after time, this apparent calamity has been a boon to us, for it opened up a path which led to the discovery of God.
    We have elsewhere remarked how much better life is when lived on a spiritual plane. If God can solve the age-old riddle of alcoholism, He can solve your problems too. We wives found that, like everybody else, we were afflicted with pride, self-pity, vanity and all the things which go to make up the self-centered person; and we were not above selfishness or dishonesty. As our husbands began to apply spiritual principles in their lives, we began to see the desirability of doing so too.
    At first, some of us did not believe we needed this help. We thought, on the whole, we were pretty good women, capable of being nicer if our husbands stopped drinking. But it was a silly idea that we were too good to need God. Now we try to put spiritual principles to work in every department of our lives. When we do that, we find it solves our problems too; the ensuing lack of fear, worry and hurt feelings is a wonderful thing.

BB p. 130 -- (God conscious but feet on the ground)
    Those of us who have spent much time in the world of spiritual make-believe have eventually seen the childishness of it. This dream world has been replaced by a great sense of purpose, accompanied by a growing consciousness of the power of God in our lives. We have come to believe He would like us to keep our heads in the clouds with Him, but that our feet ought to be firmly planted on earth. That is where our fellow travelers are, and that is where our work must be done. These are the realities for us. We have found nothing incompatible between a powerful spiritual experience and a life of sane and happy usefulness.
    One more suggestion: Whether the family has spiritual convictions or not, they may do well to examine the principles by which the alcoholic member is trying to live. They can hardly fail to approve these simple principles, though the head of the house still fails somewhat in practicing them.

BB p. 570 --
Most emphatically we wish to say that any alcoholic capable of honestly facing his problems in the light of our experience can recover, provided he does not close his mind to all spiritual concepts. He can only be defeated by an attitude of intolerance or belligerent denial. We find that no one need have difficulty with the spirituality of the program. Willingness, honesty and open mindedness are the essentials of recovery. But these are indispensable.
    "There is a principle which is a bar against all information,
    which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to
    keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that principle is contempt
    prior to investigation."
         --Herbert Spencer

and don't forget (which is the closing summery of the whole book, the ending):

page 164 Our book is meant to be suggestive only. We realize we know only a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick. The answers will come, if your own house is in order. But obviously you cannot transmit something you haven't got. See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us. Abandon yourself to God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows. Clear away the wreckage of your past. Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny. May God bless you and keep you--until then.

from the home of CC · October 24, 2018

2 hours ago, Kadilo said:

In my experience what you read on here recently is the kind of reason people are reluctant to go to any self help meeting.

Two guys, similar large period of abstinence basically arguing about who knows more than the other, who knows more influential people, who is reading and understand the literature correctly etc etc Add that to other posters experience of being ignored at their initial meeting and you have an environment that is not attracting people to go because they could believe they are being judged before they even step foot in the room.

I appreciate the dynamic of all meetings can be different and dependent on the people present but the basis should be that everyone is initially welcomed and allowed to speak about their problem, not judged on whether they actually have a problem in some members eyes. It is this judgement that may be one of the reasons that contributed to the person turning to their addiction in the first place.

Who cares what their initial reasons are for wanting help, who cares what what their interpretation of certain passages of literature are, who cares who knows who who does seminars blah blah , just stinks of arrogance and one could argue certain spiritual qualities such as modesty open mindedness do not appear to have been achieved over that 20+ years of abstinence when people feel the need to say these type of things and become a self appointed judge.

Being self centered and egocentric are common qualities of alcoholics. Possessing substantial sobriety doesn't preclude the carry over of these negative traits. Spiritual awakening never stops.

MrPatrickThai · October 24, 2018

2 hours ago, hyku1147 said:

Does it suggest that the majority of AA members were not doing the 12 steps? If that was the case in the 1930's, then surely today's presence of people with other disorders must exacerbate the problem?

I can't see why you say that. To answer your question, I believe most were doing the steps in the early days. There was a 70% + success rate compared with a 5% today. Why is this? Maybe because non-alcoholics are being allowed to stay at meetings and tell real alcoholic newcomers that they don't need to work the steps, as they don't.

i recently met a man who said he had been sober in AA for 15 years and never went to meetings. he recently had a slip and was drinking one, sometimes 2 beers a night. This causes alarm bells to ring. How can a 65 year-old man with alcoholism, which is a progressive disease, drink 2 beers a day? By this age, the craving is so bad in a real alcoholic, it is impossible. Yet, he's allowed to go to the meetings and share his story with the guy who is on his last legs and if he drinks again might die, and he can never drink one or 2 beers. This 2 beer a day imposter shares that one doesn't need to go to meetings, doesn't have to believe in a power greater than himself and basically is killing people. He tells people he never had a sponsor, now the alcoholic newcomer is looking for any excuse to keep drinking and latches onto this guy, The AA group has a responsibility to take these guys aside and help them realize if they are in fact suffering from the disease of alcoholism, or not. It is a requirement, as stated in tradition 3, that an AA member suffers from the disease of alcoholism. But no, many AA groups today are scared of driving the newcomer away, and let any Tom Dick or Harry stay if he says, "I have the desire to stop drinking". Now, I have the desire never to inject heroin but that doesn't qualify me for going to Narcotics Anonymous, as I may well be able to take it with impunity.

likerdup1 · October 25, 2018

On 10/24/2018 at 11:45 AM, Wilson Smith said:

And because you have this qualification, does this mean someone in AA has appointed you to some type of authority to decides who qualifies to be in an AA meeting despite them identifying that they are an alcoholic? There are no leaders, back of bus Bozo!

You can quote until the cows come home.

Read the only thing that matters on the topic.

The modern outcome is " You are an AA member if you say so. You can declare yourself in; nobody can keep you out."

Later in the chapter we read " Who dared to be judge, jury and executioner of his own sick brother?"

Because I have what qualification? That AA is for alcoholics only? What are you talking about?

I am not suggesting we kick people out of meetings because they are not "real" or "true" or hopeless alcoholics. I think the original OP may be suggesting this but that is damn near impossible to do. YOU CAN HOWEVER SETUP A MEETING IN SUCH A WAY AS TO MINIMIZE DAMAGE NON-Alcoholics could do at a meeting.

I attend a meeting here in Pattaya that states up front at the beginning of the meeting that AA is for people with alcoholism. If anyone is attending that feels they are a drug addict, over-eater, sex addict, gambling addict AND NOT an alcoholic .. we ask that they don't share and talk to us after the meeting about where they can get help for their specific problem. We have never had anyone not honor that. But in the case someone shows up who is so belligerent that they insist on speaking even when not called on or insist on speaking during random sharing and go on about addiction or gambling problems for the 4 minutes we allow etc.. there is not too much we can do about it. So our meeting is setup in such a way to minimize the possibility of any strong personality that doesn't honor the singleness of purpose or 3rd tradition from dominating share time. But then again, anyone new who is there would be able to tell right away that this person doesn't belong and that they are being quite disrespectful of what the meeting purpose really is. TO HELP ALCOHOLICS.

Edited October 25, 2018 by likerdup1

likerdup1 · October 25, 2018

23 hours ago, Kadilo said:

In my experience what you read on here recently is the kind of reason people are reluctant to go to any self help meeting.

Really? what experience is that? I find this humorous to say the least. LOL! This is simply not true. We are only debating on this forum and it's a healthly debate/discussion. This shows passion for the program!!

There are plenty of new drunks going to AA everyday all around the world. .. and by the way. AA is not a self help meeting. AA is a program which is spiritual in nature designed to give power, in the form of a higher power to alcoholics who lack the power to abstain from alcohol even though they honestly want to. I could not stop drinking using my self will .. I tried for 3 years and never put together more than 2 months dry. My will power was gone, otherwise I would not need AA.

Edited October 25, 2018 by likerdup1

likerdup1 · October 25, 2018

On 7/30/2018 at 7:47 PM, Neeranam said:

Agreed, the short form of the tradition was made to give to hospitals. Kick them out, they could harm an alcoholic.

Or let them stay but don't let them share.

An easier way is to take away voluntary sharing at the meeting. Have the secretary call on people to share. Members at the meeting who are asked to share could share longer and the 2 non-alcoholics would not get chosen because no time left. Simple.

Edited October 25, 2018 by likerdup1

Kadilo · October 25, 2018

2 hours ago, likerdup1 said:

Really? what experience is that? I find this humorous to say the least. LOL! This is simply not true. We are only debating on this forum and it's a healthly debate/discussion. This shows passion for the program!!

There are plenty of new drunks going to AA everyday all around the world. .. and by the way. AA is not a self help meeting. AA is a program which is spiritual in nature designed to give power, in the form of a higher power to alcoholics who lack the power to abstain from alcohol even though they honestly want to. I could not stop drinking using my self will .. I tried for 3 years and never put together more than 2 months dry. My will power was gone, otherwise I would not need AA.

The fact you choose to respond “LOL” my opening line tells me all I need to know.

Im well aware of what the program involves thanks for the the recital.

Have a a good day.

likerdup1 · October 25, 2018

9 minutes ago, Kadilo said:

The fact you choose to respond “LOL” my opening line tells me all I need to know.

Im well aware of what the program involves thanks for the the recital.

Have a a good day.

If you would, please answer my question. What experience do you have to make the conclusion that people like me having a friendly debate/discussion over some details of the program of AA are what turns "people" away from "self help groups"?

Or are you just making things up as you go along?

I would hope people would like to intelligently ad to the discussion and make truthful claims.

Neeranam · October 25, 2018

On 10/24/2018 at 12:45 PM, Kadilo said:

In my experience what you read on here recently is the kind of reason people are reluctant to go to any self help meeting.

AA is not a self help meeting, quite the opposite, in fact.

We go there because we need outside help to recover. If you go to a meeting you'll hear people talking about God, as they understand him, and how He is needed to recover from their terrible affliction which they tried desperately for years to fix by themselves.

Neeranam · October 25, 2018

1 hour ago, likerdup1 said:

If you would, please answer my question. What experience do you have to make the conclusion that people like me having a friendly debate/discussion over some details of the program of AA are what turns "people" away from "self help groups"?

None, it would seem.

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