U.S. forces, British divers join search for boys missing in Thai cave

[sanemax]

1 minute ago, greenchair said:

Really. where is that. 

It's been quiet in the news for a while. 

Somethings up.

Scheduled visit .

Streaming it live on the other TV thread

[Peterw42]

18 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

Nonsense, there are fissures from the roof of the cave right up to the surface, the only issue is terrain.

How would you possibly know that without a seismic survey of the entire mountain range. I believe most of the above ground activity has been searching for a fissure/chimney that may connect to the cave below, but they havent found one yet.

No connecting fissure/chimney may be the only thing keeping air-pockets intact, opening a fissure may cause the air to escape and water to come rushing in.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Peterw42

[Tug]

Still following hoping for the best and the safety of the rescuers as well 

[TKDfella]

Certainly a lot of expertise in the effort now which I hope will suffice. I have never been to the this cave so I know only what I read. Anyone here know this cave? I was wondering, and hoping, that inside there may be some accessible ledge(s) higher up where the youngsters might find some refuge. Although food might now be a problem, water (filtered through cloth) hopefully is not.

[greenchair]

8 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Scheduled visit .

Streaming it live on the other TV thread

For goodness sake. 

Where can I see that 

[Kieran00001]

Just now, Peterw42 said:

How would you possibly know that without a seismic survey of the entire mountain range. I believe most of the above ground activity has been searching for a fissure/chimney that may connect to the cave below, but they havent found one yet.

 

They have found more than one but they have not been large enough to get through and into the cave below and the terrain prevents equipment being brought to them to enlarge them.

[Peterw42]

6 minutes ago, TKDfella said:

Certainly a lot of expertise in the effort now which I hope will suffice. I have never been to the this cave so I know only what I read. Anyone here know this cave? I was wondering, and hoping, that inside there may be some accessible ledge(s) higher up where the youngsters might find some refuge. Although food might now be a problem, water (filtered through cloth) hopefully is not.

I think many fail to realise the size of the cave system, its 10 kilometres long with large caverns, the size of football fields, above the water level. The size and scope being part of the problem, divers would need to swim 2-3 kilometres underwater to get to the next cavern, then out of air etc.

[sanemax]

5 minutes ago, greenchair said:

For goodness sake. 

Where can I see that 

Live stream just finished a few minutes ago , theres a recordeing of it in this thread 

 

[Kieran00001]

13 minutes ago, TKDfella said:

Certainly a lot of expertise in the effort now which I hope will suffice. I have never been to the this cave so I know only what I read. Anyone here know this cave? I was wondering, and hoping, that inside there may be some accessible ledge(s) higher up where the youngsters might find some refuge. Although food might now be a problem, water (filtered through cloth) hopefully is not.

 

Apparently there is more than one area that remains dry when it floods, the Pattaya Beach area is huge and where they hope they are.

[Scott]

Bickering posts removed.  

[Kieran00001]

11 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I think many fail to realise the size of the cave system, its 10 kilometres long with large caverns, the size of football fields, above the water level. The size and scope being part of the problem, divers would need to swim 2-3 kilometres underwater to get to the next cavern, then out of air etc.

 

The biggest obstacle is the muddy water without air above, they can't see anything under the water and cannot hold their head above the water either, so a couple of KM's becomes a very long way indeed.

[orchidfan]

17 hours ago, Esso49 said:

Well it is very sad indeed that these boys appear to be trapped and running out of time.  However I have read all the threads and whilst the most likely assumption is that this group did enter the cave,  there is absolutely no factual proof they did so - so could they be trapped in a life threatening situation elsewhere ,  not having any search teams elsewhere because of this assumption they are in the cave ?.

 

Also the Thais should have appealed to foreign assistance earlier the French and Spanish caving experts are streets ahead of most other countries.  As for the "Thai Seals" well I would not rank them as anywhere near the competency levels of any other special forces,  let alone skilled in cave rescue.  

Puzzled by requirement to remove water from the cave so navy seals can proceed further. Don't navy seals remain totally immersed under water (eg the sea)?? I is removing the water assisting their underwater progress?

[Kieran00001]

4 minutes ago, orchidfan said:

Puzzled by requirement to remove water from the cave so navy seals can proceed further. Don't navy seals remain totally immersed under water (eg the sea)?? I is removing the water assisting their underwater progress?

 

The sea is not muddy water with zero visibility, it also has a surface, without either a surface or some visibility navigation is virtually impossible.

[AsianAtHeart]

2 minutes ago, Kieran00001 said:

 

The biggest obstacle is the muddy water without air above, they can't see anything under the water and cannot hold their head above the water either, so a couple of KM's becomes a very long way indeed.

I'm no expert on scuba diving, so have generally held my peace on the diving issues--but one thing about this whole conundrum really puzzles me.  Why don't they string a rope along the route, making it longer with each dive, so that they can follow the rope instead of needing to feel around for the cave openings when they have no visibility?  It would seem that a guideline like this would largely solve the visibility problem, and if they combined it with some system of markers or whatever (e.g. a knot in the rope), they could even have it such that the rope would indicate when they were within arm's reach of an obstacle that they needed to negotiate more carefully.  If this sped up their rate of travel, would it not go a long ways toward making the longer journey possible?  As I understand, the oxygen tanks provide for a certain length of time, not distance per se.  If the divers can simply move faster and save time. . . .?

[Peterw42]

3 minutes ago, orchidfan said:

Puzzled by requirement to remove water from the cave so navy seals can proceed further. Don't navy seals remain totally immersed under water (eg the sea)?? I is removing the water assisting their underwater progress?

There is a limit to how far they can go on one tank of air, turn back etc. Less water in the cave system means less distance between airpockets and they can go between airpockets , set up a stockpile of air tanks . When the cave is full of water its a 5 kilometre swimm to the other end.

 

[Kieran00001]

Just now, AsianAtHeart said:

I'm no expert on scuba diving, so have generally held my peace on the diving issues--but one thing about this whole conundrum really puzzles me.  Why don't they string a rope along the route, making it longer with each dive, so that they can follow the rope instead of needing to feel around for the cave openings when they have no visibility?  It would seem that a guideline like this would largely solve the visibility problem, and if they combined it with some system of markers or whatever (e.g. a knot in the rope), they could even have it such that the rope would indicate when they were within arm's reach of an obstacle that they needed to negotiate more carefully.  If this sped up their rate of travel, would it not go a long ways toward making the longer journey possible?  As I understand, the oxygen tanks provide for a certain length of time, not distance per se.  If the divers can simply move faster and save time. . . .?

 

I am sure they will be stringing a guide rope along as they progress, it will be the progression that is taking the time not retracing their steps.

[sanemax]

11 minutes ago, orchidfan said:

Puzzled by requirement to remove water from the cave so navy seals can proceed further. Don't navy seals remain totally immersed under water (eg the sea)?? I is removing the water assisting their underwater progress?

How are they supposed to get the kids out, if its full of water ?

[Peterw42]

7 minutes ago, AsianAtHeart said:

I'm no expert on scuba diving, so have generally held my peace on the diving issues--but one thing about this whole conundrum really puzzles me.  Why don't they string a rope along the route, making it longer with each dive, so that they can follow the rope instead of needing to feel around for the cave openings when they have no visibility?  It would seem that a guideline like this would largely solve the visibility problem, and if they combined it with some system of markers or whatever (e.g. a knot in the rope), they could even have it such that the rope would indicate when they were within arm's reach of an obstacle that they needed to negotiate more carefully.  If this sped up their rate of travel, would it not go a long ways toward making the longer journey possible?  As I understand, the oxygen tanks provide for a certain length of time, not distance per se.  If the divers can simply move faster and save time. . . .?

I imagine at some point it would be the logistics of having a stockpile of airtanks, at the limit of one airtank. If one tank gets you one kilometre, then what. put a new tank on and go another kilometre then what. You end up needing spare tanks every one kilometre, tanks to get back etc.

[steve73]

4 minutes ago, sanemax said:

How are they supposed to get the kids out, if its full of water ?

That's the least of their worries...

 

First priority it to find them, check they're OK, and provide them with supplies (clean lighting, communications, food, dry clothing, & clean water).  If needs be they can then sit it out for weeks, waiting for another exit to be dug, or for the water to be pumped out.  Unlikely they would try to evacuate the kids via the flooded passages unless it was a medical emergency (i.e. life/death situation if remaining in the cave), and even then it would be difficult .

[xylophone]

15 hours ago, Nigeone said:

Many countries not least U.K. and USA would have provided instant help if requested

I did read that Sweden had offered help/expertise early on in the piece, but have seen no mention of that anywhere (yet?).

[sanemax]

2 minutes ago, steve73 said:

That's the least of their worries...

 

First priority it to find them, check they're OK, and provide them with supplies (clean lighting, communications, food, dry clothing, & clean water).  If needs be they can then sit it out for weeks, waiting for another exit to be dug, or for the water to be pumped out.  Unlikely they would try to evacuate the kids via the flooded passages unless it was a medical emergency (i.e. life/death situation if remaining in the cave), and even then it would be difficult .

Could you read the whole thread ?

Its not open water , its little holes and passages that you have to squeeze through and may not be possible with a tank on your back .

   Impassable submerged 

[greenchair]

Waiting for news. 

[steve73]

3 minutes ago, Peterw42 said:

I imagine at some point it would be the logistics of having a stockpile of airtanks, at the limit of one airtank. If one tank gets you one kilometre, then what. put a new tank on and go another kilometre then what. You end up needing spare tanks every one kilometre, tanks to get back etc.

Cave diving uses the "rule of thirds" for air supplies.  Use no ore of a 1//3 of your air on the way in, allowing for the same (or hopefully less) on the way back, with a 1/3 as spare (so allowing you double time to make your egress if there are any problems). 

 

Air tanks should last at least 90 minutes each (assuming there is no deep diving required as the they'll use double the rate if at 10m depth), so the question becomes how far can they go in 30 minutes (or 1 hour if there's enough room to carry 2 tanks)?  Perhaps 1/2 km at most if it's reasonably clear and unobstructed, but if it's tight with zero visibility then maybe only a 100m or so.  Forward positioning of tanks become fraught with logistical problems the further they get in as it becomes a situation of diminishing returns. 

 

Deeper penetration will require the use of re-breather sets (which some of the US navy guys should be trained for).

[Peterw42]

7 minutes ago, steve73 said:

Cave diving uses the "rule of thirds" for air supplies.  Use no ore of a 1//3 of your air on the way in, allowing for the same (or hopefully less) on the way back, with a 1/3 as spare (so allowing you double time to make your egress if there are any problems). 

 

Air tanks should last at least 90 minutes each (assuming there is no deep diving required as the they'll use double the rate if at 10m depth), so the question becomes how far can they go in 30 minutes (or 1 hour if there's enough room to carry 2 tanks)?  Perhaps 1/2 km at most if it's reasonably clear and unobstructed, but if it's tight with zero visibility then maybe only a 100m or so.  Forward positioning of tanks become fraught with logistical problems the further they get in as it becomes a situation of diminishing returns. 

 

Deeper penetration will require the use of re-breather sets (which some of the US navy guys should be trained for).

Thanks, yes it doesnt take much imagination to realise the logistics involved, and the exponential nature of the task. The physical limitation will block even the best cave rescue in the world.

[steve73]

7 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Could you read the whole thread ?

Its not open water , its little holes and passages that you have to squeeze through and may not be possible with a tank on your back .

   Impassable submerged 

At risk of getting into a slanging match, I have read the whole thread and all of the others... And I've done a lot of caving in my past... including wet caves requiring ducking under a short totally flooded section just by holding your breath (but never got into diving - too crazy for me).  If you check my previous posts (on this or other threads) you'll see that I am fully aware that it'll probably be tight squeezes through the "boulder chokes", etc., but that's what the CD's are used to.  If someone can get through dry, then they'll be able to get through when flooded (provided it's not blocked with other debris (vegetation, etc).  They usually carry their tanks on their side (and can be easily detached to be pushed through first if it's really tight.  

 

The low viz is probably the really big problem here... and the distance, although no one really know how long the flooded sections are until they get there.  At least the Brits have explored this cave in the dry so they should have an idea of how long the boulder chokes (tight sections) are.

[Media1]

18 hours ago, Just Weird said:

Apart from increased numbers, what has the US done so far that the Thai rescuers haven't, then?

All to late. Being a former soldier the whole operation from day 1 was compromiszed. Your comment is without knowledge. Thai seal team not up to par. Secondly to many chiefs on site. No strategic plan on the table. Hit and miss Somchai style shots in the dark. Time is not on your side. A bit like the path to democracy which was not planned to begin with

Cave specialists, Seal teams 3. Search and rescue crews and heavy equipment onsite day 2 full green light. This has been a circus show.

You can not educated a soldier who served on matters of strategic planning. But you are welcome to have your say 

 

[VocalNeal]

7 hours ago, Kieran00001 said:

The Seals have way more experience in rescuing people from caves than anyone in the UK does, they have saved hundreds of people from partially collapsed caves in Afghanistan.

Hoorah! Semper Fi. Carry On BS. So far we have no news there has been ant damage to the cave system. It is just full of water.  You have no proof that any of the US servicemen on-site have any cave rescue experience. At least the UK cave guys have documented proof of diving expertise in caves and potholes plus they have knowledge of that particular cave system.  They are by the way the holders of the world record for the longest cave dive in history. 8.5kms. Sure they had a support team but...

The UK guys can't drill holes on their own and don't have chain of command access to equipment they didn't bring with them but if you had to pick two guys to actually go into a submerged cavern and have a look personally. Who would you choose?

 

But we shouldn't worry. We all know who will take credit when the children come out. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kieran00001]

6 minutes ago, VocalNeal said:

Hoorah! Semper Fi. Carry On BS. So far we have no news there has been ant damage to the cave system. It is just full of water.  You have no proof that any of the US servicemen on-site have any cave rescue experience. At least the UK cave guys have documented proof of diving expertise in caves and potholes plus they have knowledge of that particular cave system.  They are by the way the holders of the world record for the longest cave dive in history. 8.5kms. Sure they had a support team but...

The UK guys can't drill holes on their own and don't have chain of command access to equipment they didn't bring with them but if you had to pick two guys to actually go into a submerged cavern and have a look personally. Who would you choose?

 

But we shouldn't worry. We all know who will take credit when the children come out. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get a grip on yourself, I was replying to the comment claiming that Seals have no cave rescue experience, which is nonsense as they saw in Afghan rather a lot of cave action for quite a number of years.  This has quickly turned into very much an international effort, the whole team will be taking the credit.

[lvr181]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

This has quickly turned into very much an international effort, the whole team will be taking the credit.

And rightly so but as the locals do not read much news media from outside their country I am sure they will be bombarded locally with the "Thai" success. 

 

Hope I can be proven wrong.

Edited June 29, 2018 by lvr181
Additional comment

[VocalNeal]

1 hour ago, Kieran00001 said:

which is nonsense as they saw in Afghan rather a lot of cave action for quite a number of years.

They may have experience rescuing hostages and people held against their will in caves by armed insurgents but that is very different to finding people lost in a flooded underground labyrinth.