Plant Based Nutrition and Fasting

[TravelerEastWest]

Ginseng trivia I heard a long time ago that North American wild ginseng is perhaps the best and was often bought by Asians who know a lot about herbs

[TravelerEastWest]

4 hours ago, Kohsamida said:

Well, what I'm saying is that the article seems to describe the mechanisms that lead to beta cell dysfunction correctly in certain regards BUT I think it incorrectly assumes that dietary fat is the triggering factor.   According to uncontested textbook knowledge on how metabolic pathways work, it seems to be excessive carbohydrates that make this happen.

 

Personally, I don't put a lot of emphasis on trying to interpret scientific studies that are referenced in works by the "experts like Barnard or Volek.  As a lay person, it's often difficult if not impossible to interpret the methodology and results.  Not only is the subject matter difficult to understand, but as I'm sure you would know, statistical manipulations can easily slant conclusions, whether intentional or not.

 

What's even more of an issue is when these studies, however valid they may be, are then interpreted by third-parties with an agenda to promote (i.e.: magazine & book authors, blog writers & YouTube creators).  Their interpretations are often re-packaged as "facts" that are biased to the author's point of view.

 

Instead, I prefer to try and understand the most basic factual knowledge about cell metabolism and how the major metabolic pathways work; unbiased factual knowledge that can be gleaned through academic textbooks, not biased interpretations of the facts. 

 

Of course, current textbooks can not answer questions like "what causes Diabetes type 2", but it provides an uncontested foundation to then try and judge what people like Barnard, Ornish, Phinney, and Volek have to say.

 

Understanding things like glycolysis, citric acid cycle (Krebs' cycle),  fatty acid β-oxidation, gluconeogenesis, and de novo lipogenesis for instance provide an uncontested foundation for understanding how protein, carbohydrates, and fats are used by the body, and how the body reacts to them.

 

With this knowledge in hand,  if a hypothesis or conjecture from a researcher or author seems to be in contradiction with these basic processes, then I have a problem believing their claims.

 

Of course, I don't claim to thoroughly understand these processes.  They are incredibly complex and without a formal medical education it's difficult if not impossible to know whether I am interpreting these "foundation" facts correctly, so that in itself becomes a problem for sure.

 

So, I'm definitely not claiming my point of view about Diabetes type 2 is 100% correct.  For all I know, dietary fat could very well prove to be the root cause of D type 2, BUT based on what I've gleaned from textbooks about the basic cell metabolism, I lean towards carbohydrates.

 

Finally, I just want to add that like you, I am also trying to refine my lifestyle to be as healthy as it can be.  It's no easy task with so many "gray areas" in our understanding of nutrition.  That's what this thread is all about...exploring viewpoints. 

 

I'm just glad that everybody participating has strong points of view and is willing to explore competing viewpoints in a positive and vigorish way.  It's a win-win for everyone that we can do this without it turning into troll-like pissing matches as happens in many threads on TVF! ?

 

"According to uncontested textbook knowledge on how metabolic pathways work, it seems to be excessive carbohydrates that make this happen."

 

Two thoughts:

 

1) The Ornish, Bernard etc group do not contradict medical facts but interpret them in a different way

 

or

 

2) They may be correct and some textbooks wrong?

 

Meanwhile my thoughts are that they are probably correct based on everything I have read and heard.

 

Personally I need to lose around 10 pounds to be as thin - but I then need to lose a bit more to get the internal fat down to where it should be. Not exactly sure how much fat in total but I can go in for a test and see about where I will be in terms of fat.

 

At that point it will be an interesting experiment to see what happens!

 

In theory my insulin resistance should be great and my only issue would be insulin production.

 

I can do simple carb vs fat test with diet and see the results. So until then I really don't know...

 

[Kohsamida]

25 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

"According to uncontested textbook knowledge on how metabolic pathways work, it seems to be excessive carbohydrates that make this happen."

 

Two thoughts:

 

1) The Ornish, Bernard etc group do not contradict medical facts but interpret them in a different way

 

or

 

2) They may be correct and some textbooks wrong?

 

Meanwhile my thoughts are that they are probably correct based on everything I have read and heard.

 

Personally I need to lose around 10 pounds to be as thin - but I then need to lose a bit more to get the internal fat down to where it should be. Not exactly sure how much fat in total but I can go in for a test and see about where I will be in terms of fat.

 

At that point it will be an interesting experiment to see what happens!

 

In theory my insulin resistance should be great and my only issue would be insulin production.

 

I can do simple carb vs fat test with diet and see the results. So until then I really don't know...

 

What motivates you to want to lose the weight?  Do you know your body fat percentage (scale weight in relation to lean body mass)?

[Kohsamida]

Thinking about water fasting but on the fence about actually doing it?

I was just reviewing my notebook from the time I decided to try my first long-term fast (7 days), and thought some of the things I was concerned about might also be those on the mind of others who are thinking about doing a long term fast, so I'm sharing them here.

 

Safety of Water Fasting: I just want to preface this by saying that although fasting is generally safe for anyone without medical issues and who have more than 10% body fat, it's not something to take lightly.  You should really do your homework and not rely on much of the nonsense you see on YouTube or obvious "guru" website trying to sell you all sorts of supplements and silly plans.  The whole idea behind a water-only fast is its' simplicity.  I mean, you just don't eat...period! 

 

It's a Natural Process:  It's also a completely natural state to be in.  Eating three or six meals a day is not natural. Humans have lived for over 100,000 years, and most of that time it was feast or famine (fasting). Pretty much every religion on Earth has some sort of fasting ritual, meaning billions of people around the planet do some amount of fasting. It is crazy to think that fasting is anything but safe and natural.

 

Fasting vs Caloric Restriction (typical dieting):  So, the first thing you need to consider is that fasting is completely different than caloric restriction.  When fasting (completely eliminating food intake), your body responds with a very different hormone response than when merely reducing calories. This hormone response will actually increase metabolism (within certain limits), and there are other beneficial things that happen during fasting that will not happen with calorie restriction such as "autophagy" but I don't want to digress so you should learn about all of this on your own.  I just want to discuss what my major concerns were since I'm sure you have the same ones.

 

My two biggest concerns (after I was convinced that fasting is safe) had to do with energy levels and possible muscle loss while fasting.

 

As concerns energy levels, it's true that you probably feel like hell for the 1st 2 or 3 days of a fast until ketosis kicks in.  In most people it takes 24-72 hours for the body to shift over from using carbohydrates as fuel to using stored fat, but once it does, your stored fat reserves will provide almost all of your energy needs (as long as you have adequate fat reserves).  Once ketosis kicks in fully, hunger will subside and you'll actually feel pretty energetic.  It might not be wise to attempt high-energy activities like weight lifting of Crossfit, but you can comfortably participate in activities such as walking, even running cycling, and swimming.

 

As concerns muscle loss,  If you are a serious weight lifter or body builder you would lose some muscle mass but for the average person, very little is lost.  Normal protein breakdown is on the order of 75 grams/day during the pre-ketosis stage of fasting and that falls to about 15 – 20 grams/day during ketosis (by day 3 or 4).  Also, since the body is highly selective about which proteins are broken down, muscle is spared in favor of other protein sources such as intracellular, damaged RNA and other non-essential substrates.  What's more, high levels of growth hormone are released that maintain lean tissues and muscle during the later stages (starting around the 5th day) of fasting.  During a 7 day fast your total protein loss might be around 100 grams of muscle tissue, which isn't very hard to make up after the fast ends.

 

As concerns weight loss, you'll lose fat but it's less than many people think.  In the first few days of a fast, you'll lose a huge amount of weight, even as much as 10 pounds, but much of it will be in the form of water.  During a 7 days fast you can expect to lose between 0.7 and 1.0 pounds of fat per day.  However, once you end the fast, you'll probably gain much of that back simply because the body doesn't like losing that much weight that quickly and as you begin to eat again, it will do everything possible to gain it back (intense food cravings, and hormonal responses to restore the lost fat stores.  Sorry, but t happens!

 

To be blunt, water fasting shouldn't be thought of as a weight loss method.  Sustainable weight loss only occurs by modifying your eating habits as a long-term lifestyle change.

 

Anyway, those three things were my biggest concerns so I thought I'd share my thoughts for what it's worth.

 

Just as a sort of road map, here are the phases you go through while on an extended water fast:

1. Feeding – During meals, insulin levels are raised. This allows uptake of glucose into tissues such as the muscle or brain to be used directly for energy. Excess glucose is stored as glycogen in the liver.
2. The post-absorptive phase – 6-24 hours after beginning fasting. Insulin levels start to fall. Breakdown of glycogen releases glucose for energy. Glycogen stores last for roughly 24 hours.
3. Gluconeogenesis – 24 hours to 2 days. The liver manufactures new glucose from amino acids in a process called “gluconeogenesis”. Literally, this is translated as “making new glucose”. In non-diabetic persons, glucose levels fall but stay within the normal range.
4. Ketosis – 2-3 days after beginning fasting. The low levels of insulin reached during fasting stimulate lipolysis, the breakdown of fat for energy. The storage form of fat, known as triglycerides, is broken into the glycerol backbone and three fatty acid chains. Glycerol is used for gluconeogenesis. Fatty acids may be used directly for energy by many tissues in the body, but not the brain. Ketone bodies, capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier, are produced from fatty acids for use by the brain. After four days of fasting, approximately 75% of the energy used by the brain is provided by ketones. The two major types of ketones produced are beta hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate, which can increase over 70 fold during fasting.
5. Protein conservation phase – >5 days – High levels of growth hormone maintain muscle mass and lean tissues. The energy for maintenance of basal metabolism is almost entirely met by the use of free fatty acids and ketones. Increased norepinephrine (adrenalin) levels prevent the decrease in metabolic rate.

Again, if you are going to fast, do your homework first!  Start small with a 1 day fast, next time make it 3 days, etc... .  Don't rely on the silly nonsense you read on Guru sites or see in YouTube vids entitled "How I lost 50 pounds in 10 days"!  And I would also suggest you speak with a MD who is positive about fasting, and have a basic panel of blood tests done before attempting a water-fast just to be sure all is OK.

 

PS: If you're wondering why I really posted this, I'm currently on a 3-day water fast and it helps me get over the rough spots by re-reading my notes, so I thought why not share them with you guys at the same time ?

[FracturedRabbit]

Thanks, very interesting. How do you think the body will react to fasting if it is already in ketosis? I have a feeling it will be easier. I normally fast 18 hours a day which is easy, but would like to try longer periods.

[Kohsamida]

10 hours ago, FracturedRabbit said:

Thanks, very interesting. How do you think the body will react to fasting if it is already in ketosis? I have a feeling it will be easier. I normally fast 18 hours a day which is easy, but would like to try longer periods.

I agree totally.  In addition to periodic fasting (3 days, every 4-6 weeks), I, like you, only eat one main meal per day.  I eat one meal that I know is providing all the macronutrients I need, and then also eat things like fruit when I know I need the carbs for higher intensity activities like before and during mountain-biking, swimming, running, gym workouts, etc... .  I've been eating this way for a long time, and I never have felt deprived, and it's never had any adverse effect on my health.

 

I think of fasting as "exercising" your metabolism to be more efficient at using stored body fat as fuel.  If you've always relied on carbs for fuel, the body will prefer carbs and rebel vigorously if it's deprived of them, and it will not be very efficient at switching over to use stored fat as fuel.  This can be a problem when glycogen stores become depleted in vigorous activities, and result in "bonking"

 

However, by fasting periodically,  the body is forced to use stored fat as fuel, and it actually does so quite efficiently, once it is adapted to doing so.  Fasting adapts the body to do this,  and it seems better able to make the transition if done on a regular basis.  The term used to describe this is "fat adaptation".

 

In terms of macronutrients, carbs are actually not vital for survival, whereas dietary fat and proteins are quite essential.  Your body could function normally for years in the absence of carbohydrates in the diet, but could not do so without dietary protein and fats.  Nonetheless, carbs are important to the body for short-term, high intensity energy.

 

In my opinion, fasting, whether it's in the form of daily abstinence like you described, or several days at a time simply makes the body more efficient at utilizing BOTH fat and carbs efficiently. 

 

The advantage of this is that the body has a very limited capacity to store glycogen whereas its' ability to store fat is enormous.  Being able to efficiently tap into stored fat as a fuel source is highly beneficial in many situations.

 

At least that's how I view it ?

 

[Kohsamida]

Relationship between fasting and growth hormone  I'm really fascinated by the possible connection between fasting and the release of human growth hormone (hGh), so during my current 3 day fast I'm making it the focus of what I'm trying to learn more about.  I'm sharing it here for anyone also interested.

 

When you are in a fasted state, many hormone changes occur.  That's actually the main difference between fasting and mere calorie-reduction diets.  When insulin is reduced, there are resultant increases in nor-adrenalin, cortisol, and growth hormone.  Collectively, these are known as the counter-regulatory hormones, since they all serve to increase blood glucose at a time that the body is not getting glucose from food.

 

HGH is a hormone made by the pituitary gland (the master gland), which plays a huge role in the normal development of children and adolescents as the name implies. However, it also plays a role in adults. HGH deficiency in adults leads to higher levels of body fat, lower lean body mass (sarcopenia) and decreased bone mass (osteopenia).

 

Once released by the pituitary gland, HGH only lasts a few minutes in the bloodstream. It goes to the liver for metabolism, where it is converted into a number of other growth factors, the most important of which is Insulin-Like Growth Factor 1 (IGF1).

 

This is the same IGF1 that is connected to high insulin levels and many poor health outcomes, but the brief pulse of IGF1 from HGH lasts a few minutes at most. All hormones are secreted naturally in very brief bursts to prevent the development of resistance, which requires both high levels and persistence of those levels (this is indeed how insulin resistance develops).

 

Growth hormone is typically secreted during sleep and is one of the so-called counter-regulatory hormones. HGH along with cortisol and adrenalin increases blood glucose by breaking down glycogen – so it counters the effect of insulin, hence its name. These hormones are typically secreted in a pulse just before waking (4 am or so) during the ‘counter-regulatory surge’. This is normal and is meant to get the body ready for the upcoming day by pushing some glucose out of storage and into the blood where it is available for energy.

 

The idea that you must eat a big breakfast to have energy for the day is wrong, and this is why.  This is also the reason why hunger is lowest first thing in the morning (8 am) even though you have not eaten for 12 hours or so.

 

Why HGH should be a concern to adults:  HGH typically goes down with age and abnormally low levels may lead to lower muscle and bone mass, but fasting stimulates HGH secretion. During fasting, there is the spike in the early morning, but there is regular secretion throughout the day as well. In one study it was shown that there is a 5 fold increase in HGH in response to a 2 day fast. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1548337).

 

This HGH is crucial in the maintenance of lean mass – both muscle and bone. One of the major concerns about fasting is the loss of lean mass. Some people claim that fasting a single day causes loss of ¼ pound of muscle. Studies prove that this does not occur. In fact, the opposite can happen. In comparing caloric reduction diets to fasting, the fasting was 4 times better at preserving lean mass and the release of HGH is a big reason why!  [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27569118]

[FracturedRabbit]

I notice the "surge" when I checked my blood sugar after rising, it was 91. But two hours after a meal, it had dropped to 81! The early morning glucose pushes up the blood sugar reading.

[FracturedRabbit]

Just discovered this:

 

http://fastingmovie.com/about

 

Look interesting.

[Kohsamida]

Just a tip to get you through the initial phase of a water fast:  Have a pack of sugarless gum handy for when hunger pangs start really getting intense.  Seriously, it works!  Just the chewing reflex makes the hunger pangs go away. Currently finishing up day 2 of 3. Can't wait for Sunday evening.?

  

[mommysboy]

On 7/20/2018 at 7:14 PM, Kohsamida said:

Thinking about water fasting but on the fence about actually doing it?

I was just reviewing my notebook from the time I decided to try my first long-term fast (7 days), and thought some of the things I was concerned about might also be those on the mind of others who are thinking about doing a long term fast, so I'm sharing them here.

 

Safety of Water Fasting: I just want to preface this by saying that although fasting is generally safe for anyone without medical issues and who have more than 10% body fat, it's not something to take lightly.  You should really do your homework and not rely on much of the nonsense you see on YouTube or obvious "guru" website trying to sell you all sorts of supplements and silly plans.  The whole idea behind a water-only fast is its' simplicity.  I mean, you just don't eat...period! 

 

It's a Natural Process:  It's also a completely natural state to be in.  Eating three or six meals a day is not natural. Humans have lived for over 100,000 years, and most of that time it was feast or famine (fasting). Pretty much every religion on Earth has some sort of fasting ritual, meaning billions of people around the planet do some amount of fasting. It is crazy to think that fasting is anything but safe and natural.

 

Fasting vs Caloric Restriction (typical dieting):  So, the first thing you need to consider is that fasting is completely different than caloric restriction.  When fasting (completely eliminating food intake), your body responds with a very different hormone response than when merely reducing calories. This hormone response will actually increase metabolism (within certain limits), and there are other beneficial things that happen during fasting that will not happen with calorie restriction such as "autophagy" but I don't want to digress so you should learn about all of this on your own.  I just want to discuss what my major concerns were since I'm sure you have the same ones.

 

My two biggest concerns (after I was convinced that fasting is safe) had to do with energy levels and possible muscle loss while fasting.

 

As concerns energy levels, it's true that you probably feel like hell for the 1st 2 or 3 days of a fast until ketosis kicks in.  In most people it takes 24-72 hours for the body to shift over from using carbohydrates as fuel to using stored fat, but once it does, your stored fat reserves will provide almost all of your energy needs (as long as you have adequate fat reserves).  Once ketosis kicks in fully, hunger will subside and you'll actually feel pretty energetic.  It might not be wise to attempt high-energy activities like weight lifting of Crossfit, but you can comfortably participate in activities such as walking, even running cycling, and swimming.

 

As concerns muscle loss,  If you are a serious weight lifter or body builder you would lose some muscle mass but for the average person, very little is lost.  Normal protein breakdown is on the order of 75 grams/day during the pre-ketosis stage of fasting and that falls to about 15 – 20 grams/day during ketosis (by day 3 or 4).  Also, since the body is highly selective about which proteins are broken down, muscle is spared in favor of other protein sources such as intracellular, damaged RNA and other non-essential substrates.  What's more, high levels of growth hormone are released that maintain lean tissues and muscle during the later stages (starting around the 5th day) of fasting.  During a 7 day fast your total protein loss might be around 100 grams of muscle tissue, which isn't very hard to make up after the fast ends.

 

As concerns weight loss, you'll lose fat but it's less than many people think.  In the first few days of a fast, you'll lose a huge amount of weight, even as much as 10 pounds, but much of it will be in the form of water.  During a 7 days fast you can expect to lose between 0.7 and 1.0 pounds of fat per day.  However, once you end the fast, you'll probably gain much of that back simply because the body doesn't like losing that much weight that quickly and as you begin to eat again, it will do everything possible to gain it back (intense food cravings, and hormonal responses to restore the lost fat stores.  Sorry, but t happens!

 

To be blunt, water fasting shouldn't be thought of as a weight loss method.  Sustainable weight loss only occurs by modifying your eating habits as a long-term lifestyle change.

 

Anyway, those three things were my biggest concerns so I thought I'd share my thoughts for what it's worth.

 

Just as a sort of road map, here are the phases you go through while on an extended water fast:

1. Feeding – During meals, insulin levels are raised. This allows uptake of glucose into tissues such as the muscle or brain to be used directly for energy. Excess glucose is stored as glycogen in the liver.
2. The post-absorptive phase – 6-24 hours after beginning fasting. Insulin levels start to fall. Breakdown of glycogen releases glucose for energy. Glycogen stores last for roughly 24 hours.
3. Gluconeogenesis – 24 hours to 2 days. The liver manufactures new glucose from amino acids in a process called “gluconeogenesis”. Literally, this is translated as “making new glucose”. In non-diabetic persons, glucose levels fall but stay within the normal range.
4. Ketosis – 2-3 days after beginning fasting. The low levels of insulin reached during fasting stimulate lipolysis, the breakdown of fat for energy. The storage form of fat, known as triglycerides, is broken into the glycerol backbone and three fatty acid chains. Glycerol is used for gluconeogenesis. Fatty acids may be used directly for energy by many tissues in the body, but not the brain. Ketone bodies, capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier, are produced from fatty acids for use by the brain. After four days of fasting, approximately 75% of the energy used by the brain is provided by ketones. The two major types of ketones produced are beta hydroxybutyrate and acetoacetate, which can increase over 70 fold during fasting.
5. Protein conservation phase – >5 days – High levels of growth hormone maintain muscle mass and lean tissues. The energy for maintenance of basal metabolism is almost entirely met by the use of free fatty acids and ketones. Increased norepinephrine (adrenalin) levels prevent the decrease in metabolic rate.

Again, if you are going to fast, do your homework first!  Start small with a 1 day fast, next time make it 3 days, etc... .  Don't rely on the silly nonsense you read on Guru sites or see in YouTube vids entitled "How I lost 50 pounds in 10 days"!  And I would also suggest you speak with a MD who is positive about fasting, and have a basic panel of blood tests done before attempting a water-fast just to be sure all is OK.

 

PS: If you're wondering why I really posted this, I'm currently on a 3-day water fast and it helps me get over the rough spots by re-reading my notes, so I thought why not share them with you guys at the same time ?

Just wondering how it is people lose weight without fasting, and appear to be much fitter/healthier.  There must be some fat burning going on.  Maybe it's increased exercise that kick starts ketosis.  I don't know, but would be interested to find out.

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Just wondering how it is people lose weight without fasting, and appear to be much fitter/healthier.  There must be some fat burning going on.  Maybe it's increased exercise that kick starts ketosis.  I don't know, but would be interested to find out.

You do not need to fast in order to lose body fat.  It's simply a matter of depleting glycogen stores to the point that ketosis allows stored body fat to be "burned" as fuel.  You can do that through caloric restriction and exercise.  Better yet, limit carbs while you're trying to shed excess fat (i.e.: ketogenic diet).  Anything that forces the body into ketosis is all it takes.

 

Fasting all by itself shouldn't really be thought of as a fat loss strategy; that's not what is intended for really.  In the long run it doesn't really achieve that goal since most people just regain the weight as soon as they start eating again.

 

Fasting can "kick start" your efforts since it quickly gets you into ketosis, but it has to be followed up with a sustainable diet such as a ketogenic diet (limit carbs to under 50g per day) to quickly reduce body fat, and then follow up with a sustainable, healthy lifestyle of proper nutrition (plant-based, in my opinion) and regular exercise. 

[TravelerEastWest]

On 7/20/2018 at 5:27 PM, Kohsamida said:

What motivates you to want to lose the weight?  Do you know your body fat percentage (scale weight in relation to lean body mass)?

I want to lose weight because it is something that is agreed upon (as far as I know by everyone) as helping insulin resistance,

 

I have been told my body fat percentage a while ago during a doctors visit but it is lower now - OK  for looks but not for diabetes.

[Kohsamida]

33 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I want to lose weight because it is something that is agreed upon (as far as I know by everyone) as helping insulin resistance,

 

I have been told my body fat percentage a while ago during a doctors visit but it is lower now - OK  for looks but not for diabetes.

Well, like I said before, in my opinion, the best way to loose fat is to cut down significantly on carbs until you are at your desired weight.  A LFHC plant based diet is, of course, healthy but you're not going to lose fat on it unless you are quite active (daily vigorous exercise beyond what most people will do unless they are athletes) . 

 

In my opinion, the healthy strategy if high body fat is an issue is to get it down ASAP with a ketogenic diet, and once you are at desired weight, to then shift to a plant-based diet with the amount of carbs matching your level of physical activity.

 

The only way to initiate lipolysis is to get glycogen stores low enough to stimulate the release of ketone bodies.  Ketosis can not occur while insulin levels are high and glycogen stores are full.  In other words, you will not lose body fat if carbs are always stimulating insulin release, and the production of glycogen. 

 

This isn't my opinion; it's just basic metabolic science.  It's the reason that people taking prescription insulin usually become more and more obese over time as insulin dosages rise. 

[TravelerEastWest]

1 minute ago, Kohsamida said:

Well, like I said before, in my opinion, the best way to loose fat is to cut down significantly on carbs until you are at your desired weight.  A LFHC plant based diet is, of course, healthy but you're not going to lose fat on it unless you are quite active (daily vigorous exercise beyond what most people will do unless they are athletes) . 

 

The only way to initiate lipolysis is to get glycogen stores low enough to stimulate the release of ketone bodies.  Ketosis can not occur in the presence of glycogen.  In other words, you will not lose body fat if carbs are always stimulating insulin release, and the production of glycogen.  This isn't my opinion; it's just basic metabolic science.  It's the reason that people taking prescription insulin usually become more and more obese over time. 

Actually, eating a low fat diet has worked very well for me to lose fat and decrease insulin resistance without much exercise - not sure why but it is a fact and others have had the same experience.

 

Cutting down on carbs is a very good short term solution for high glucose levels, but from my experience it is not the best one and is a short term one.

 

 

[Kohsamida]

12 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Actually, eating a low fat diet has worked very well for me to lose fat and decrease insulin resistance without much exercise - not sure why but it is a fact and others have had the same experience.

 

Cutting down on carbs is a very good short term solution for high glucose levels, but from my experience it is not the best one and is a short term one.

 

 

Well, yes cutting carbs is a short term strategy.  The goal is to reduce body fat.  Reducing body fat will indirectly reduce insulin insensitivity by the process I described in my original post.  We just seem to have a disagreement about whether excessive carbs or fat are at the root of insulin insensitivity. 

 

Everything I understand about cell metabolism and how the major metabolic pathways work says that carbs are involved, not dietary fats.  Again, this is up-to-date textbook knowledge.

 

Things like glycolysis, citric acid cycle (Krebs' cycle), fatty acid β-oxidation, gluconeogenesis, and de novo lipogenesis are very well understood metabolic processes, so I don't know what else I can say except to read more about these things and see what you think afterwards.

[TravelerEastWest]

26 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

Well, yes cutting carbs is a short term strategy.  The goal is to reduce body fat.  Reducing body fat will indirectly reduce insulin insensitivity by the process I described in my original post.  We just seem to have a disagreement about whether excessive carbs or fat are at the root of insulin insensitivity. 

 

Everything I understand about cell metabolism and how the major metabolic pathways work says that carbs are involved, not dietary fats.  Again, this is up-to-date textbook knowledge.

 

Things like glycolysis, citric acid cycle (Krebs' cycle), fatty acid β-oxidation, gluconeogenesis, and de novo lipogenesis are very well understood metabolic processes, so I don't know what else I can say except to read more about these things and see what you think afterwards.

Well actually I have done my reading and so far fat is the guilty party and science backs this up.

 

From my experience fat is the big problem but too many carbs is certainly a short term problem.

 

Reducing body fat will reduce insulin sensitivity because receptors will become unclogged. Many researchers agree with this. Not sure about medical school textbooks as I have never read one and I might not be smart enough to understand them...

 

So instead I rely on researchers like Bernard who have read medical school textbooks and gone beyond them with up to date research and can communicate this information to average people.

 

[Kohsamida]

1 hour ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Well actually I have done my reading and so far fat is the guilty party and science backs this up.

 

From my experience fat is the big problem but too many carbs is certainly a short term problem.

 

Reducing body fat will reduce insulin sensitivity because receptors will become unclogged. Many researchers agree with this. Not sure about medical school textbooks as I have never read one and I might not be smart enough to understand them...

 

So instead I rely on researchers like Bernard who have read medical school textbooks and gone beyond them with up to date research and can communicate this information to average people.

 

Science also back up carbs...BUT, I have to admit, your point of view is not without merit.  I've been going over all of my notes from the last couple of years in the last few days, and I have to admit there is a lot of science to back up your views as well.  Personally I have a need to re-access everything I think. 

 

Sometimes you just get "married" to a point of view.  That's when you start loosing objectivity I guess.  I'm not saying I've lost faith in my viewpoint on this, especially what is based on how metabolic processes and pathways work, but there are a lot of gray areas that need to be addressed for sure.

 

It is the frustration and also the fascination of subjects like this that make it all so interesting, so I certainly appreciate being able to debate with you on all of this. ?

[Kohsamida]

Ended my 3 day fast a few minutes ago.  Enjoying some nice watermelon slices to start things off...Yummm! ?  Foods taste so incredible right after a fast!

 

[TravelerEastWest]

I am not lucky and have a big problem with hunger on water fasts; usually around 7 days or slightly longer.

 

I want to do one more long fast maybe 14 days and then I will probably stick to skipping dinner.

 

The reason for a long fast for me is to test the idea of healing the beta cells.

 

I have read about gut health but I don't think vegans on a plant based diet need to worry about that usually.

[TravelerEastWest]

46 minutes ago, Kohsamida said:

Science also back up carbs...BUT, I have to admit, your point of view is not without merit.  I've been going over all of my notes from the last couple of years in the last few days, and I have to admit there is a lot of science to back up your views as well.  Personally I have a need to re-access everything I think. 

 

Sometimes you just get "married" to a point of view.  That's when you start loosing objectivity I guess.  I'm not saying I've lost faith in my viewpoint on this, especially what is based on how metabolic processes and pathways work, but there are a lot of gray areas that need to be addressed for sure.

 

It is the frustration and also the fascination of subjects like this that make it all so interesting, so I certainly appreciate being able to debate with you on all of this. ?

Carbs are good to eat for me (based on experience) and many people with diabetes (based on Youtube and books)  - over time insulin resistance goes down and you get lots of vitamins and antioxidants etc...

 

However a big plate of pasta or rice etc causes high glucose levels for me right now so I don't eat pasta and try to keep my whole grains to a reasonable level.

 

I am not able to really debate the subject as I am not qualified - but I can talk about my personal experiences for what they are worth...

[Kohsamida]

13 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

I am not lucky and have a big problem with hunger on water fasts; usually around 7 days or slightly longer.

I want to do one more long fast maybe 14 days and then I will probably stick to skipping dinner.

 

The reason for a long fast for me is to test the idea of healing the beta cells.

 

I have read about gut health but I don't think vegans on a plant based diet need to worry about that usually.

Really, 7 days?  For me the acute hunger ends after a couple of days.  Psychologically, I guess I have it for the length of the fast.  I think I must be a masochist because whenever I fast I seem to watch a lot of YouTube food channel videos LOL!

[Kohsamida]

28 minutes ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Carbs are good to eat for me (based on experience) and many people with diabetes (based on Youtube and books)  - over time insulin resistance goes down and you get lots of vitamins and antioxidants etc...

 

However a big plate of pasta or rice etc causes high glucose levels for me right now so I don't eat pasta and try to keep my whole grains to a reasonable level.

 

I am not able to really debate the subject as I am not qualified - but I can talk about my personal experiences for what they are worth...

That's what makes this carb vs fat debate so difficult.  I've heard just as many stories of people solving metabolic issues by carb reduction as I have from fat reduction, and the leading researchers for both sides are hardly stupid people or people with agendas, so it's all quite confusing for me to be honest. 

 

Personally, I solved my metabolic issues by fasting, a HFLC ketogenic diet for about 6 months, and then by switching to plant-based diet.  My blood panels changed within weeks of fasting and remained stable throughout my ketogenic diet which was very heavy with dietary fats.  So, I don't know.  Maybe I was just lucky.

 

It confuses me because people I respect like Barnard and Gregor say that kind of diet should have disastrous effects on insulin sensitivity and in very short order.  Yet it didn't for me, and before I fasted I was indeed pre-diabetic according to my MD.  So...it just confuses me greatly.   In my case it just seems that carbs were the culprit.

 

I'm interested in all of this now mainly out of curiosity since I seem to be doing well.  I've been more or less plant-based now for about a year, and all is good with that.  So, I just try to stick with good nutrition, exercise, and doing a 3-day fast every 4-6 weeks to keep my body fat-adapted (being able to utilize stored fat for fuel more easily than if I didn't fast).

[TravelerEastWest]

 "solving metabolic issues by carb reduction"

 

Recently I read many times that low carb is indeed good for lower glucose levels and I agree with this.

 

The problem is that long term it is not good for your health and mortality rates go up from all causes with high fat diets.

 

So short term they are good - but long term not so good.

 

But I like Dr Joel Furman who focuses not just on plant based but on high nutrition density = lots of fresh vegetables/fruits and beans.

 

I am going to try now a medium carb and low fat plant based diet which basically means cutting back on oatmeal which I love and nuts/seeds.

[partington]

deleted

[partington]

18 hours ago, Kohsamida said:

You do not need to fast in order to lose body fat.  It's simply a matter of depleting glycogen stores to the point that ketosis allows stored body fat to be "burned" as fuel.  You can do that through caloric restriction and exercise.  Better yet, limit carbs while you're trying to shed excess fat (i.e.: ketogenic diet).  Anything that forces the body into ketosis is all it takes.

I think your basic error is that you think you can only initiate lipolysis and use up stored fat by going into ketosis.

 

Ketosis will cause you to use up more stored fat, and quicker, but is quite unnecessary  for simple utilization of fat stores. This is why an exercise program can cause significant weight reduction in the absence of any Atkins style messing about.

 

Normally fatty acids are  released by adipocytes very quickly, after only a few hours fasting (for example during the night) or even an hour of vigorous exercise, to supplement waning glucose supplies . They are oxidised to acetate (acetyl CoA), which can then join the universal pathway for cellular energy production: the citric acid cycle. To enter the cycle, acetate produced from fatty acid oxidation must combine with a four-carbon compound called oxaloacetate to form citrate which is then oxidised , producing energy and regenerating the oxaloacetate.

 

This cycle can produce energy from complete oxidation of fatty acids to CO2 and water indefinitely without significant ketosis under normal conditions, and causes depletion of body fat stores in proportion to amount of energy used for exercise.

 

Just to emphasise: it's not using fatty acids as fuel  that causes ketosis, and nor is ketosis necessary to completely use up fatty acids derived from stored triglyceride.

 

 It is the lack of carbohydrates from long term low carbohydrate diets  or long term fasting that causes ketosis.

 

It is only when you limit glucose by low carb diets or fasting for days on end that fatty acid metabolism results in significant ketosis. This is simply because oxaloacetate is made from glucose.

 

If you run out of glucose you can't make oxaloacetate, so you can't produce energy from the citric acid cycle because there's no source of oxaloacetate to allow its first step, the bonding with acetate. In this case all the spare acetate (Acetyl CoA) from fatty acid oxidation builds up in the liver because the citric acid cycle is blocked, and enzymes then respond by combining the acetate into ketone bodies.

 

This is the meaning of the well known medical students' saying that "fats burn in the flame of carbohydrates" - in the absence of carbohydrates fatty acid metabolism  cannot continue by entering the citric acid cycle, to be "burned" directly to produce energy.

[Kohsamida]

2 hours ago, partington said:

I think your basic error is that you think you can only initiate lipolysis and use up stored fat by going into ketosis...

I agree mostly with what you said; except for the fact that the release of ketone bodies is actually a necessary component for body fat loss to occur. 

 

Maybe I'm just mincing words and we are actually in agreement.  I guess it depends on how you define the word "ketosis".  I don't mean you need to be on a ketogenic diet where carbs are severely limited (> 50 g), but ketone bodies are essential for fat loss to occur.  It has to do with being able to supply the brain with sufficient energy while forcing the body to burn stored fat.

 

When lipolysis occurs, stored fat (triglycerides) is broken down into the glycerol backbone and three fatty acid chains. Glycerol is used for gluconeogenesis, and fatty acids may be used directly for energy by many tissues in the body, but not the brain since they are incapable of crossing the blood-brain barrier. 

 

Something else is necessary otherwise the metabolism would simply slow down to compensate for lack of energy to the brain.  This is the reason that the restricted-calorie diets do not work.  The notion of "calories in = calories" out is false.

 

Only ketone bodies produced from fatty acids are capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier and providing the brain with the energy it needs in the absence of sufficient glycogen, so ketosis is a necessary component for fat loss to occur.  Without it, fat loss would not occur; the metabolism would simply slow down to compensate for the low energy state.  This is the main reason why calorie-restricted diets simply do not work.  Ketones are therefore a necessary part of the equation. 

[Kohsamida]

3 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

 "solving metabolic issues by carb reduction"

 

Recently I read many times that low carb is indeed good for lower glucose levels and I agree with this.

 

The problem is that long term it is not good for your health and mortality rates go up from all causes with high fat diets.

 

So short term they are good - but long term not so good.

 

But I like Dr Joel Furman who focuses not just on plant based but on high nutrition density = lots of fresh vegetables/fruits and beans.

 

I am going to try now a medium carb and low fat plant based diet which basically means cutting back on oatmeal which I love and nuts/seeds.

Yes, I think you hit the nail on the head.  I totally agree that long-term, limiting carbs is not good since it would force you to rely on excessive amounts of dietary fats for metabolic energy, and as long as they are not carbs from heavily processed foods with lots of HFCS but rather plant-based, there's not a problem.

 

For short-term dieting however, where the goal is to remove stored body fat as quickly as possible I think there are a lot of merits to minimizing carbs even at the expense of raising dietary fat simply because body fat loss will occur much more rapidly than caloric restriction.

 

In fact, I don't think caloric restriction diets work at all because without ketone release, the body only ramps down basal metabolism with glycogen deficits since the brain becomes deprived of energy.  Only ketone bodies are capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier, and limiting carbs sufficiently triggers a huge ketogenic response.

 

Of course this is only address the problem of getting rid of excess body fat, not for long-term nutrition.

 

Anything that adds excess body fat is bad.  Dietary fat is just as capable of doing this as carbs, but not all dietary fats are necessarily bad.  I think the ones to avoid are mainly animal based.  I might be wrong but I don't see an issue with plant-based fat, as found in avocados for instance.

 

[partington]

8 hours ago, Kohsamida said:

I agree mostly with what you said; except for the fact that the release of ketone bodies is actually a necessary component for body fat loss to occur. 

 

Maybe I'm just mincing words and we are actually in agreement.  I guess it depends on how you define the word "ketosis".  I don't mean you need to be on a ketogenic diet where carbs are severely limited (> 50 g), but ketone bodies are essential for fat loss to occur.  It has to do with being able to supply the brain with sufficient energy while forcing the body to burn stored fat.

 

When lipolysis occurs, stored fat (triglycerides) is broken down into the glycerol backbone and three fatty acid chains. Glycerol is used for gluconeogenesis, and fatty acids may be used directly for energy by many tissues in the body, but not the brain since they are incapable of crossing the blood-brain barrier. 

 

Something else is necessary otherwise the metabolism would simply slow down to compensate for lack of energy to the brain.  This is the reason that the restricted-calorie diets do not work.  The notion of "calories in = calories" out is false.

 

Only ketone bodies produced from fatty acids are capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier and providing the brain with the energy it needs in the absence of sufficient glycogen, so ketosis is a necessary component for fat loss to occur.  Without it, fat loss would not occur; the metabolism would simply slow down to compensate for the low energy state.  This is the main reason why calorie-restricted diets simply do not work.  Ketones are therefore a necessary part of the equation. 

If you are not on a carbohydrate restricted diet then the brain uses glucose!

[Kohsamida]

23 minutes ago, partington said:

If you are not on a carbohydrate restricted diet then the brain uses glucose!

But if you don't restrict carbs or create a glycogen deficit through physical activity, you can not loose body fat.